An Argument Against Lucas' Star Wars Continuity: The Darth Debate: Name or Title?

[Magus]

“You can’t win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.” -- Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi to Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope

According to George Lucas' continuity as established in his new prequel trilogy (see Star Wars Episode I-III), we are meant to assume that the "Darth" in "Darth Vader", the pseudonym taken on by one Anakin Skywalker after his betrayal of the Jedi Order, alliance with Senator Palpatine, and embrasure of the dark side of the force in becoming a Sith, is a title, as established by the names of other antagonists from the prequel trilogy, Darth Maul (Episode I: The Phantom Menace), Darth Tyrannus (Episode II: Attack of the Clones) and Darth Sidious (Episode I-III), which is the supposed Sith title of aforesaid Senator Palpatine, later Emperor Palpatine.

However, this argument is not borne out by how Darth Vader is later referenced chronologically within the universe: during a duel between Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader on the Imperial Death Star, Obi-Wan consistently refers to Darth Vader not as "Vader", as would be implied if Vader is his "name", but as "Darth". Of course, it is not impossible to refer to people by their titles (President, Prince, or in this case Darth if it is a title), but logically this makes little sense in context, as Darth Vader continually refers to Obi-Wan Kenobi not as "Jedi Master", "Jedi", "Sir", or any other logically consistent title appended to Jedi Knights, or even by an impersonal "Kenobi", but as "Obi-Wan", his first name, a much more personal greeting. It is clear the two have known each other personally in the past, enough so as to refer to one another by their first names rather than titles. Observe:

Darth Vader: "I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now *I* am the master."
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Only a master of evil, Darth.
...
Obi-Wan Kenobi:“You can’t win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.”

As we can see, logically it is inconsistent to consider Darth to be a title given to Dark Lords of the Sith. This is borne out by various Imperial officials referring to Darth Vader formally as "Lord Vader", not as Darth Vader. If Darth were a title, it would be used, much like Emperor, Princess, Senator, Grand Moff, Moff, etc. Instead in the original trilogy it is only ever used in personal conversations between old acquaintances, or in reference to Darth Vader when he is offscreen or from people who do not bear him respect (such as Princess Leia Organa).

There may be some flaws with this assertion of Lucas' internal inconsistency between his original and prequel Star Wars trilogy. For instance, Leia Organa is consistently called "Princess Leia", not Princess Organa, which if a consistent cultural practice would bear out that Lord Vader be called "Lord Darth", much like real-life royals are usually referred to by their title then first name (King John, Prince Harry, for instance). However, in every other instance of a title being used within the universe, royal titles such as Queen or Emperor are appended to the last name (Queen Amidala, Emperor Palpatine), not their first name. As such in this case "Princess Leia" is probably used due to either the cultural mores of Alderaan or else as a sign of personal familiarity between friends, not as a prevailing cultural usage throughout the galaxy.

Another possible argument against this assertion is that Obi-Wan was consistently attempting to deflect Luke's knowledge of Darth Vader as Anakin Skywalker by continually referring to him by his formal title of "Darth" during said exchange, purposefully ignoring Vader's familiarity. However, this logically makes no sense because 1. Neither Luke or anyone else is present during said duel and 2. ignores the usage of "Vader" as an equally valid impersonal name usage, as it is his sole name (if Darth is a title, Vader is not first or last name, simply the only name). Obi-Wan attempting to deflect Darth Vader's familiarity is not a solid argument for excepting "Darth" as a title.

Nor does it make sense to say that Obi-Wan is not using a personal name by using Darth, on the argument that as a pseudonym it is not personal. As explained to Luke later on in Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader is his name now, as he "killed" Anakin Skywalker by turning to the dark side of the force. He has become fully personified in his new name, casting off the old entirely, in both his own mind and personal ex-friends' minds, such as Obi-Wan Kenobi's. Darth is his personal first name and using it by itself in greeting would imply familiarity from an acquaintance, or lack of respect from someone else (such as Leia).

As such, I assert that George Lucas' internal inconsistency regarding the usage of "Darth" as a title for Sith Lords rather than the first name of Anakin Skywalker's personal pseudonym is incorrect. Rather, Darth is a first name within the universe. Are we to presume that every Sith Lord would choose the same first name for their pseudonym, as would be borne out with Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, and Darth Sidious? Preposterous!

Knowing this, can we cast doubt on other elements of Lucas' purported internal consistencies which seem rather suspect, such as the Force being interacted with via midichlorians within a humanoid's bloodstream, Yoda's battle tactics in Lucas' Episode II and III versus Genndy Tartakovsky's rendition in The Clone Wars, that Boba Fett,rather than being a young Mandalorian bounty hunter during the prequel era just starting on his path to galaxy-wide infamy, is instead an adolescent clone of a "Jango Fett" who is also the genetic progenitor of Imperial Storm Troopers, or Anakin Skywalker being a world-class fighter pilot at the age of 8? Clearly we can, and should!

George Lucas' take on his own universe is severely flawed and inconsistent. If he were in his right mind, which he is clearly not, I have the feeling he would also question its canonicity. Therefore, extended universe novels from before the prequel trilogy should be newly considered for their authenticity and canonality, as they clearly establish better internal consistencies with the original trilogy.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

However, this argument is not borne out by how Darth Vader is later referenced chronologically within the universe: during a duel between Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Vader on the Imperial Death Star, Obi-Wan consistently refers to Darth Vader not as "Vader", as would be implied if Vader is his "name", but as "Darth". Of course, it is not impossible to refer to people by their titles (President, Prince, or in this case Darth if it is a title), but logically this makes little sense in context, as Darth Vader continually refers to Obi-Wan Kenobi not as "Jedi Master", "Jedi", "Sir", or any other logically consistent title appended to Jedi Knights, or even by an impersonal "Kenobi", but as "Obi-Wan", his first name, a much more personal greeting. It is clear the two have known each other personally in the past, enough so as to refer to one another by their first names rather than titles. Observe:.

From Vader's perspective Obi-wan is his old master returned, he refers to him personally because he's using the rage of that history to fuel his actions.

Obi-Wan refers to Vader extremely impersonally with "Darth" because he doesn't acknowledge Vader as the same person as Anakin. Just some husk of a creature that had the humanity stripped out of it long ago.

[Krylo]

Darth is used as a title in other media predating the prequel trilogy. See: Darth Revan.

Also: What Karesh said.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

You sir, have put more effort into Star Wars than Lucas has in decades.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[CABAL49]

Darth is a title. Darth Bane, Darth Revan, Darth Bad-guy. To be a Darth is considered to be a master of the Sith.

[synkr0nized]

From Vader's perspective Obi-wan is his old master returned, he refers to him personally because he's using the rage of that history to fuel his actions.

Obi-Wan refers to Vader extremely impersonally with "Darth" because he doesn't acknowledge Vader as the same person as Anakin. Just some husk of a creature that had the humanity stripped out of it long ago.

Nice and succinct way to answer. Applause goes here.

[RickZarber]

There's no need to analyze things so closely to explain away inconsistencies.

Lucas made all of this shit up as he went along, changing or retconning things as he felt like it. That has always been the case. The reason the EU holds better internal consistency is simply because it is striving to conform to and make sense of the established canon.

That doesn't make him "out of his mind". It just means he's constantly coming up with new ideas, and sometimes the older (and, it can--and probably will--be argued, better) ideas get swept aside to accommodate.

[Aerozord]

I just want to point out that simply because something is a title does not mean its not also a name. There are societies that apply a name, or part of name to all of a given line. While technically not a title it still denotes status, while still being an actual name.

[RickZarber]

Also, I'm not entirely clear on what your point is, other than that the Bantam-era EU was better than the prequels and everything after.

Which is madness.

It's pretty much all equally terrible.

(Don't get me wrong, I love it, and own almost all of them. But I know my junk food from my nutritious. So take that as you will, I guess.)

[Magus]

I've edited the post since then, not realizing you would all flock to this topic of nerdery so quickly! I cover that in it, here:

"Nor does it make sense to say that Obi-Wan is not using a personal name by using Darth, on the argument that as a pseudonym it is not personal. As explained to Luke later on in Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader is his name now, as he "killed" Anakin Skywalker by turning to the dark side of the force. He has become fully personified in his new name, casting off the old entirely, in both his own mind and personal ex-friends' minds, such as Obi-Wan Kenobi's. Darth is his personal first name and using it by itself in greeting would imply familiarity from an acquaintance, or lack of respect from someone else (such as Leia)."

Usage of Darth would still imply familiarity as a first name, not a title usage, even if it is a pseudonym (he has been Darth Vader for 18 years, it's become his name in his own mind and Kenobi's!)

HOWEVER since you have all posted and eaten of my bait with such zest, I would like to put out the disclaimer that this is just a joke topic I created as a satire on nitpicky Star Wars nerdery, not a serious discussion that Darth is actually a first name. I accept that it is a title. I wanted to point out more the absurdity of Lucas' ideas for his prequel trilogy via the satirical usage of a logical inconsistency with the word "Darth", ignoring extended universe thingamajigs.

Obviously the extended universe things went with Darth as a title, too, I am more saying that Lucas has continually stated that extended stuff is not canonical if it conflicts with his take on things, and that this is extremely unfortunate since so many of his ideas are so horrible whereas the extended universe things were not (Boba Fett as a bounty hunter tangoing with Huttese crime lords back in the day and currently being middle aged, 45 or so, is way better than his being a 12 year old clone and like, 30 in the original trilogy.)

EDIT:

Also, I'm not entirely clear on what your point is, other than that the Bantam-era EU was better than the prequels and everything after.

Which is madness.

It's pretty much all equally terrible.

(Don't get me wrong, I love it, and own almost all of them. But I know my junk food from my nutritious. So take that as you will, I guess.)

I have no idea what you are talking about, Rick! The Han Solo trilogy and the Boba Fett novel were both definitely awesome and better than anything that occurred in the prequel trilogy of movies, so...I admit I haven't read a lot of the other ones, mostly ones set after the original trilogy instead of during the prequel period, but they all sound better on average than something that Lucas could come up with if asked to explain the back story further back than the prequels.

[Krylo]

Yeah, honestly, Lucas shouldn't be allowed to touch Star Wars.

The Tartakovsky Clone Wars, for instance? Striken from canon by Lucas to replace it with a CGI thing with a Mary Sue jedi apprentice to Anakin based on Lucas's daughter.

[Archbio]

The Tartakovsky Clone Wars is the one with bloated molerat people with Megaman arm attachments emoting melodramatically, right?

[rpgdemon]

From Vader's perspective Obi-wan is his old master returned, he refers to him personally because he's using the rage of that history to fuel his actions.

Obi-Wan refers to Vader extremely impersonally with "Darth" because he doesn't acknowledge Vader as the same person as Anakin. Just some husk of a creature that had the humanity stripped out of it long ago.

Makes sense. Rather than refer to Palpatine by his name, it's Emperor, and similarly, to Obi-Wan, Darth Vader isn't a person he knows anymore, but simply a nameless Darth, IE: Just another apprentice to a Sith lord.

[Magus]

The Tartakovsky Clone Wars is the one with bloated molerat people with Megaman arm attachments emoting melodramatically, right?

Yeah, yeah, pick on the one thing that wasn't...wait, that was actually a pretty awesome part of it since it much more convincingly captured Anakin's brutality when angered than anything in the movies, so...

I think we are more focusing on how Yoda just calmly stands still and uses the force to smash gigantic battle cruisers together instead of flailing around with his light saber all undifgnified, or at least that is what I was focusing on with my Tartakovsky comment.

[Krylo]

Or how Grievous was an actual legitimately threatening character rather than a wheezing old man with a helicopter taped onto his torso.

[Archbio]

Yeah, yeah, pick on the one thing that wasn't...wait, that was actually a pretty awesome part of it since it much more convincingly captured Anakin's brutality when angered than anything in the movies, so...

Only if you didn't want them destroyed to the last mishappen abomination.

I think we are more focusing on how Yoda just calmly stands still and uses the force to smash gigantic battle cruisers together instead of flailing around with his light saber all undifgnified

The former is better than the latter... but I'm not convinced either were a good directions to take Yoda in.

---

Edit: Mang, the Grievous thing? It would have been fine if he hadn't been all like: behold my Jedi skillz! before going all Cuisinart like some kind of stupid videogame mid-level boss.

Edit 2: I guess it comes down to: I didn't like Lucas' being super reductive about every aspect of it more than anyone else... but an aspect I didn't miss as grievously as everyone else was the total prowess hyperbole.

[Magus]

The former is better than the latter... but I'm not convinced either were a good directions to take Yoda in.

What direction is left? Having Yoda use the Jedi Mind Trick to force all the bad guys to shoot themselves in the head?...actually that would have been the best, they should have done that one.

[Archbio]

Oh, and there's also the voice. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_wpCT6NtcY&NR=1)

actually that would have been the best, they should have done that one.

If only the plot didn't require Yoda to have a force tumour the whole time (malignant cancer midichlorians?)

[synkr0nized]

Edit: Mang, the Grievous thing? It would have been fine if he hadn't been all like: behold my Jedi skillz! before going all Cuisinart like some kind of stupid videogame mid-level boss.

OK.

Somehow redo the prequels like Disgaea with Grievous as Mid-Boss / in that kind of a role.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I didn't really mind that Grevious wasn't quite as awesome as his clone wars counterpart. I could deal with the injury and that the Jedi obviously never had the ability to wipe out entire armies with their bare fuckin' hands.

But when Grevious takes on Obi-wan it's not even like it's just the lack of physical strength holding him back. He has none of the skill, tenacity and wittiness that made him such a great threat. He makes no use of the fact that he can just as easily balance on one arm as his legs, or that he can attack from multiple directions or even that he towers over Obi-wan and could have won the battle through that reach advantage alone.

He just...kinda does a whirlwind.
And that's it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Star wars was ruined the moment Yoda started fighting and killing shit. What the fuck is that shit.

Also man the only cool Vader is the New Hope vader when he's like the crazy uncle and all the imperial dudes just make fun of him behind his back.

[BitVyper]

I kinda buy Grievous not doing so hot when he is fighting a Obi Wan-caliber master without the advantages he generally held against Jedi when they fought, and with an injury at that. Darth... uh.... Old Guy straight up told him in training that he needed to be using fear and the element of surprise (fear clouding their force precog) to his advantage in order to fight Jedi, and the impression was still that he couldn't take on the upper tier of masters. Like, that one master he killed is narratively pretty much just a high ranking red shirt.

I think a big part of the problem is that while we accept that everyone gets their super powers downgraded in the movie, Grievous gets that at exactly the same time as all the non-main-character Jedi get written out, downgrading his threat level considerably. That, and the stuff that worked in animation doesn't necessarily translate so easily to his movie portrayal - at least not without spending so much money on him that he might as well be the protagonist - so he doesn't come off as freaky versatile.

Anyway, bottom line is I don't think he would have done better against Obi Wan if they'd been amped to CW levels. It would definitely have been a cooler fight, but based on exactly how good Grievous is supposed to be, I think his fight with Obi Wan was pretty reasonable.

[greed]

Everything that needs to be known about Star Wars is that the only things in the whole franchise that are actually good, Tartakovsky's Clone Wars and KotoR 2 (buggy as hell but the only Star Wars thing with competent writing, and it is a VIDEOGAME) are shunned by the franchise heads.

[Nique]

George Lucas' take on his own universe is severely flawed and inconsistent. If he were in his right mind, which he is clearly not, I have the feeling he would also question its canonicity.

I get a little tired of hearing this presented as a legitimate opinion. I don't mind the occasional jab becuase yeah there are some extremely groan worthy moments in the new Star Wars films, but Lucas isn't stupid - He's just good at making movies that nerds care more about the minutia of than he does.

[Archbio]

He's just good at making movies that nerds care more about the minutia of than he does.

If the prequels were the first three Star Wars movies released... no one would care about their minutia.

[Krylo]

I get a little tired of hearing this presented as a legitimate opinion. I don't mind the occasional jab becuase yeah there are some extremely groan worthy moments in the new Star Wars films, but Lucas isn't stupid - He's just good at making movies that nerds care more about the minutia of than he does.

See, I used to think this.

Then he went an altered the canon, removing some of the best written* contemporary Star Wars lore to replace it with a CGI cartoon whose main character is a pre-teen apprentice to Anakin Skywalker based on his daughter who, amidst other feats, fights General Grievous to a standstill.

Now it's either his ability has degraded to that of a 13 year old on Fanfiction.net (if it was ever better, Howard the duck), or he just has absolutely no respect for his own works. Either way, he should probably be kept away from them.

*Not going to go into what it really means that a Cartoon wherein Mace Windu single handedly fights off an army of droids is better written than anything else out of the franchise in the last few years, but it's not a good thing.

[Ecks]

I personally never saw the point of Ahsoka Tano ever at all.

She was not present as of Revenge of the Sith.

We all know what happens to her.

So instead of inventing a Mary Sue Author's Daughter insert, why not put in a more believable character? Or, better yet... just have CGI Clone Wars be a fleshing out of the Tartakovsky series? Bring the awesome. Amplify it.

As far as Grievous is concerned... please note that as the Clone Wars dragged on, Dooku and the General were likely not able to meet face to face as often to help hone Grievous' skills. Add that to the fact that post Invisible Hand, Dooku was dead and thus unable to offer any further training or reminders... Grievous resorted to intimidation tactics that, were Kenobi any other Jedi, would likely have worked.

Except Kenobi has faced down two Sith Lords and several acolytes, slaying one, defeating most of the acolyte's he's encountered, and got away from Sith Lord number two with a couple of scratches. As far as combat with lightsaber wielding foes is concerned... Kenobi's earned his rank. Add that to the fact that he uses Form III... other than the fact that Grievous doesn't really tire out, they were due to hit a stalemate in combat regardless. Kenobi was buying time until the army arrived anyway, and once Grievous noticed that he lost his advantage, he ran.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I get a little tired of hearing this presented as a legitimate opinion. I don't mind the occasional jab becuase yeah there are some extremely groan worthy moments in the new Star Wars films, but Lucas isn't stupid - He's just good at making movies that nerds care more about the minutia of than he does.

I think the problem is he got such a lion's share amount of credit (Lets be honest, he may as well have made them all by himself for all that you hear about the rest of his staff on the subject) for the first three movies, basically to the exclusion of every other fucking person who helped make them a success that when it came time for him to make the prequels there was nobody left in his company willing to question him anymore.

Even during production of the first three, George had great ideas that he was planning to more or less ruin with other less good ideas, but he was held back by budget and a staff of people who could challenge him because at the time he wasn't as strong a figure as he had become during the making of the prequels.

For this reason I excuse Phantom Menace, nobody really could have known George wouldn't actually have any clue how to make a Star Wars movie when he's given complete control. That's fine. He even admitted after watching the screening of it that he didn't like it and wishes he had changed things.

But then...he went right back to it. Nothing changed for the second movie, nobody questioned him again.
You'd think he would hire a guy who's job it was to just stand there on set right next to him and wait for the perfect moment to shout "MIDICLORIANS. JAR JAR BINKS. THIS IS JUST AS STUPID AS THAT. STOP IT YOU DUMBASS."

[Azisien]

I clicked on this thread direct from the main page only seeing "An Argument Against Lucas"

And I was like sweet, this is hopefully gonna be "An Argument Against Lucas Going Near Film-Grade Cameras Ever Again!"

Then I was like http://fim.413chan.net/art/src/131321923305-Okay.jpg

[Marc v4.0]

Too bad it is legally his to whatever he wants with it and no one else has any grounds to stand on to tell him not to.

Good thing, too.

[Magus]

I clicked on this thread direct from the main page only seeing "An Argument Against Lucas"

And I was like sweet, this is hopefully gonna be "An Argument Against Lucas Going Near Film-Grade Cameras Ever Again!"

Then I was like http://fim.413chan.net/art/src/131321923305-Okay.jpg

Well it basically was that argument if you were paying attention, I just thought it would be funny to write a long-ass post about something utterly minor and pointless to illustrate it.:D

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Too bad it is legally his to whatever he wants with it and no one else has any grounds to stand on to tell him not to.

Good thing, too.

This argument has been had in a million threads we don't need to have it again.
This is a pretty ridiculous example, however as Star Wars like all films had a shit load of creators so really it all comes down to legal wrangling (like all copyrights incidentally) but we're giving ownership to whomever has the most canny lawyers not really the creator.
And shit, Lucas stole it all from Kurosawa anyway.

[Magus]

It's true that Lucas has full legal control of the franchise, but describing it as a "good thing" instead of a "damn shame" is where I would differ.

[Marc v4.0]

It was more a comment that, for better or worse, the person with full legal control calls the shots.

[Bells]

which just means we have one specific individual with a name, that we can blame. Instead of the usual "The Studio" or "The board"

[Marc v4.0]

Yup

[Magus]

Hmm, I don't want to wish for Lucas' premature death (I don't have to wish, after all, the donuts will take care of business sooner or later), but when he dies I hope his family sells the rights to a studio or whatever capable of finding people with good ideas for the whole multiverse thingamajig.

Of course, they might be like the Tolkein estate and keep things tightly controlled, but Lucas has licensed the universe for so many side things I'd presume his family will do the same. I can't see it being worse if this happens, maybe as bad, but hopefully an improvement if and when we see full-length theatrical Star Wars movies made by other people. I mean, the strongest film of the original trilogy, The Empire Strikes Back, had Lucas on only as a writer, not a lot else if I remember correctly.

[Osterbaum]

George Lucas didn't make the original movies by himself. Infact he had less to do with them than people often seem to think.

[Magus]

Hahaha, oh, Lucas, you rascal you!

Lucas to replace puppet Yoda in The Phantom Menace with CGI Yoda (http://www.avclub.com/articles/george-lucas-continues-war-on-puppets-by-adding-ne,60911/?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=feeds&utm_source=avclub_rss_daily)

He was probably like "Whoops! What a mistake! Only 99% of the aliens and robots in this movie were CGI! Boy, do I have egg on my face! Jeeves! Contact my man down at ILM immediately!"

[rpgdemon]

I actually think the new CGI Yoda looks pretty nice.

[Dracorion]

I wonder when they'll replace Ki-Adi-Mundi with a CGI version.

[Magus]

As soon as I figure out who the heck Ki-Adi-Mundi is. Is he that one conehead dude?

I think it's more that Lucas feels he has to go back and add more CGI to a ten year old movie that was already 99% CGI. It's called Irony. Instead of, I dunno, taking it upon himself to write Jar Jar out of the thing, he's putting funding into updating an extremely minor aspect of the film that nobody actually cared about.

EDIT: And before you're all like "WELL IT'S LUCAS' BRAINCHILD", he himself said he wasn't pleased with the final product of The Phantom Menace. I thought this was because it was a bit of a trainwreck, but perhaps it was just the puppet Yoda, I dunno...

[Nique]

Instead of, I dunno, taking it upon himself to write Jar Jar out of the thing,

A lot of kids really liked Jar Jar.

[Marc v4.0]

PM Puppet Yoda looked like ass and CGI is a 500% Improvement even if it is, literally, a big CGI Ass

[Magus]

My point is that puppet Yoda ain't the problem with that movie. It was nowhere on anybody's lists of problems with that movie, or if it was it was in position #1198, right after "Guy in background in scene 47 is picking his nose." But for Lucas it was apparently near the top of the list.

[rpgdemon]

"Guy in background in scene 47 is picking his nose."

Wait, really?

[Magus]

No. Although I guess there was a stormtrooper in the first movie back in '77 who bangs his head on a door. They fixed it a long time ago (for some reason; watching movies for the minor mistakes in them opens up all new levels of entertainment).

[Ryanderman]

No. Although I guess there was a stormtrooper in the first movie back in '77 who bangs his head on a door. They fixed it a long time ago (for some reason; watching movies for the minor mistakes in them opens up all new levels of entertainment).

Nah, it's still in there. It's famous and popular enough (unlike Han shooting first, somehow) that they wouldn't change it. Apparently there's even a homage to it in Episode 1 (or there would be, if such a movie existed).

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Puppet yoda was better than CGI yoda because they couldn't make puppet yoda do stupid stuff.

[RickZarber]

Also, that Yoda clip? That is like 5 years old; it is on either the Ep II or III DVD bonus disc.

So. There's still no confirmation that this is a thing that is actually happening.

Wouldn't surprise me if it did, but still.

[Magus]

Return of the Jedi changes.
(http://www.avclub.com/articles/hey-what-else-did-george-lucas-do-to-star-wars-thi,61178/)
LucasFilms confirms adding "NOOOOOOO!" to Return of the Jedi (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/112701-LucasFilms-Confirms-adding-NOOOOOO-to-Return-of-the-Jedi?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=news)

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT

[Shyria Dracnoir]

Artists at some point really need to know when to step back from their work.

[Magus]

Hahaha, oh God, this is too good:

George Lucas offers a compelling argument against George Lucas (http://www.avclub.com/articles/george-lucas-offers-a-compelling-argument-against,61224/?utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=feeds&utm_source=avclub_rss_daily)

This was dredged up from a speech Lucas gave before Congress back in 1988:


“These current defacements are just the beginning. Today, engineers with their computers can add color to black-and-white movies, change the soundtrack, speed up the pace, and add or subtract material to the philosophical tastes of the copyright holder. Tomorrow, more advanced technology will be able to replace actors with ‘fresher faces,’ or alter dialogue and change the movement of the actor’s lips to match. It will soon be possible to create a new ‘original’ negative with whatever changes or alterations the copyright holder of the moment desires….

In the future it will become even easier for old negatives to become lost and be ‘replaced’ by new altered negatives. This would be a great loss to our society. Our cultural history must not be allowed to be rewritten…. Attention should be paid to the interest of those who are yet unborn, who should be able to see this generation as it saw itself, and the past generation as it saw itself.”

Of course, in context, he was worried about the artist's work being ruined by outside copyright holders...but as copyright holder on his own work he did exactly what he was afraid some soulless corporate goon would do. It's so priceless! Plus in a way there were other artists involved, directors, and he's changing their decisions because he holds the copyright! Wahahaha!

[Krylo]

In ten years he's going to hold up the new star wars and be like "See!? I told you so!"

[Archbio]

Plus in a way there were other artists involved, directors, and he's changing their decisions because he holds the copyright!

It's almost like he considers himself the only true artistic contributor to Star Wars.

[rpgdemon]

What's hilarious is that he's literally done all that. Even the fresher faces thing, with Anakin being put into the original trilogy.

He was really good at predictions, though.

[Magus]

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/1055/starwarsblurayandorigin.jpg

[Ecks]

I still have my original VHS tapes of the original trilogy.

I will never get rid of them.

[Azisien]

They will decay naturally.

[Krylo]

He could burn them onto newer media.

[Magus]

I was seriously tempted to buy a set of the tapes the last time I was at Goodwill.

Oddly enough, when it comes to copying VHS tapes onto DVD, they somehow exhibit far greater copyright protection than whenever I remember copying them onto other tapes. Something like half my VHS tapes wouldn't copy to DVD, which is why I need to buy Indiana Jones on DVD sometime.

[Jagos]

Totally relevant (http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110912/13500315912/hollywood-accounting-darth-vader-not-getting-paid-because-return-jedi-still-isnt-profitable.shtml)

They haven't paid Darth Vader any money in royalties for the original movies.

[Magus]

I'm assuming Prowse has to be getting residuals from the first two movies, though. Still, I'm kind of annoyed by the fact that Lucas can roll around in his Jaccuzi filled with thousand dollar bills while Prowse doesn't get 1/3 of the money he could be getting, especially since he probably got a lot less than the other actors who's voices and faces were used. Especially when he gave us the most hilarious Darth Vader ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSm9DDxQv8E)

EDIT: Just to make it clear, that story says he isn't getting money from Jedi. He's still getting money from the other two (presumably, since they specify it's Jedi). But like I said, pretty damn unfair. It has to be profitable at this point!

[Jagos]

I'm assuming Prowse has to be getting residuals from the first two movies, though. Still, I'm kind of annoyed by the fact that Lucas can roll around in his Jaccuzi filled with thousand dollar bills while Prowse doesn't get 1/3 of the money he could be getting, especially since he probably got a lot less than the other actors who's voices and faces were used. Especially when he gave us the most hilarious Darth Vader ever. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSm9DDxQv8E)

EDIT: Just to make it clear, that story says he isn't getting money from Jedi. He's still getting money from the other two (presumably, since they specify it's Jedi). But like I said, pretty damn unfair. It has to be profitable at this point!

... You don't know about Hollywood Accounting? In a nutshell, for each movie a director puts up an LLC company for each movie. Everything is paid out of that company so it shows as a loss. Then, when it's time for residuals, guess who gets screwed? Yep, Darth Vader. I could go into more detail but Vader getting paid on Star Wars?

You thought yes? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s)

[Magus]

That doesn't change the fact that for some reason that article specified Return of the Jedi, which leads me to believe that either the first two predated the Hollywood Accounting Scheme of Douchebaggery or somehow the shell companies made enough money that the producers had to pay him something above and beyond just his salary, said expenditure of money probably sending lancing pains through Lucas' entire body.

[Jagos]

That doesn't change the fact that for some reason that article specified Return of the Jedi, which leads me to believe that either the first two predated the Hollywood Accounting Scheme of Douchebaggery or somehow the shell companies made enough money that the producers had to pay him something above and beyond just his salary, said expenditure of money probably sending lancing pains through Lucas' entire body.

I doubt they've paid him. He's only the actor of Vader. I bet they paid Mark Hamill, James Earl Jones, and Harrison Ford. If you want to see more about the accounting, Go here (http://www.creativemovieaccounting.com/how-hollywood-accounting-works.html)

And let's be honest, the adjusted gross on all three are HUGE (http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm), with "Return" being the 15th highest of all time. It's impossible to tell anyone that the studios haven't made money on it.

[Magus]

So, apparently Spielberg made sure to point out that the upcoming Blu-Ray releases of E.T. and Indiana Jones will not be altered from their original releases, (http://geektyrant.com/news/2011/9/13/spielberg-wont-alter-et-or-raiders-of-the-lost-ark-for-blu-r.html) or if they are he will also make sure the originals are available as well.

[Ecks]

OH SPIELBERG, YOUR CONSTANT GAME OF ONE-UP WITH LUCAS IS STILL SO DELICIOUS AFTER ALL THESE YEARS.