"Doctor Who" or "Fallacies Therof" [POTENTIAL RISK OF SPOILERS WITHIN]

[Seil]

First off, drunk, whoo. Second off, I'm not sure I know what 'fallacies' means.

C) Doctor Who. Double whoo. Now most people know that I don't fancy that new guy, what with the silly hair and young face. Tennant is where it (was) at. Not that I've seen the new stuff. (NonContradictory link that post.) But there was a blip. A... a 'thing' that none of us twigged to. "Fathers Day."
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE0w3Y5JI7M)
Now, we could talk - and I probably will, when I'm drunk I tend to ramble (I talk too much anyway) - about the Doctor's Revival Companions: Martha, Jack, Mickey or Donna. We could talk about how Martha went to UNIT or Jack and that Torchwood spin off that I never watched because the box sets are expensive, or Mickey and his... Mickey. Yeah. But first of all there was Rose Tyler.

The story. (I like it when threads start with a little story. Story time) I was a young lad - really young, this was 1996 so I'd be... young. (14?) (http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/Pictures%20Of%20Me/untitled.jpg) But There was a movie on the telly about this dude named Doctor Who or something. Was 'Who' his surname? I didn't know. Anyway, I was young, and the FOX/BBC Doctor Who movie came on in 1996. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y9_-6l7bOk) ...I wasn't all that interested. I mean, my babysitter (who upon reflection must not have been a very good babysitter) let my older two brothers and I watch Sliders or Screamers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLLwtcOB6i8) or whatever it was called (which probably began my fixation on Horror, if IT (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYW3NyAPuMI) didn't do it first.) Doctor Who wasn't on me list. But a year or two ago, I had a nameless friend (that means I cannae remember his name) posting "Who" clips on the Facebook. So I looked into it, threw down my $100, and bought a box set. The first being Christopher Eccleston's first season. (I like to start at the beginning, even though the series... 60 odd years... fire at the warehouse destroying original copies... etc, etc.)

Anyway, after all that talk (print? type? text?) Here's my point: Who... or The Doctor or whatever totally broke the rules. He can't become part of events. But in "Father's Day" - that's the one what with Billie Piper (http://shadowsfall.org/mandogandgun/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Billie_Piper.jpg) and.... sorry, I got distracted (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/__m1XzrZOGys/Ta1PRefCkVI/AAAAAAAAAEw/0RsQ80NztHk/billie_piper_sexy_1.jpg) there.... and the Doctor becoming part of events and still travelling. He travels to the same point twice, and sees himself and gets eaten! What's that about!?

[Shyria Dracnoir]

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt93/Kachtice0565/Stuff/Stop_posting_small1.jpg

[Seil]

The Doctor: I'm right! This'll work! Shut up! Now listen, you and Lux, work back up to the main library, prime any data cells you can find for maximum download. And before you say anything else Professor, can I just mention in passing as you're here - shut up!
.

[BloodyMage]

I like the 11th Doctor.

As for the paradox, The Doctor has said that there are fixed spots in time that must remain intact and other than that you can generally get away with whatever you like. And a great deal of alien species do.

At any rate, it was corrected by the father dying, and no-one but Rose and the Doctor remember anything. Rose insists that she was the one talking to her father when he died, but her mother refuses to believe her, and doesn't remember any flying creatures eating anyone.

The episode 'The Waters of Mars' delve into it a little further. Before the time war, this kind of thing probably wouldn't be possible, but with only one time lord left to correct all of history, he can pretty much get up to what he likes, so long as he doesn't meet his current regeneration, cause flying Reapers to come into being and eat him.

Interestingly (or maybe not), the new series continues on Saturday. I know it's on BBC1 in the UK, and it should air around the same time in America, but I don't know at what time.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If you're looking for a deep, consistent exploration of timetravel in Doctor Who you are doing it wrong.

On Saturday we have "Let's kill Hitler". This was discussed on the chat with multiple possibilites as to why/how Doctor will kill Hitler, I'm sticking with Hitler is the 13th Doctor.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

I don't think it's the Doctor who is trying to kill Hitler. There is an alien bounty hunter there to kill Hitler for apparantly being the biggest douche in the universe or something. And then it turns out the Doctor and River are also on the list.

Also, spoilers.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

But he is the 13th Doctor and also the master! He must be stopped.

Clearly not a bounty hunter. The term "Let's kill Hitler" implies that its something you decide to do on a whim/for various reasons and not something that you are doing because you are ordered/paid to do.

[BloodyMage]

In the Doctor's case it's generally 'there's a big plot point coming up that I don't want to do yet, so let's do something whimsical and light hearted until someone dies or lures me into a situation where I am forced to deal with it.'

Biggest spoiler being that Hitler will in fact not be killed. Oh, twist.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

We've heard that a main character will die permantenly. They will retroactively add Hitler into all past episodes as slapstick comic relief companion and then kill him off in this episode.

[BloodyMage]

And then he will regenerate into Nixon.

Nixon asking The Doctor how he was as president wasn't just a throw away line you know!

[Nique]

If you're looking for a deep, consistent exploration of timetravel in Doctor Who you are doing it wrong.

Right. Like, anyone involved with the series has always said something to the effect of 'there are no contradictions or plot holes. if something doesn't make sense then it's becuase magic/ time travel/ sonic/ whatever.

Also can I just say I'm so effing tired of all these hipsters beating off to Tom Baker's Doctor and BEGRUDGINGLY accepting Tennant only? Matt Smith is actually really good and was from the start.

[Nique]

Also on 'Let's Kill Hitler' - I haven't read anything about what that episode is going to entail but I'm betting it's Amy or Rory wanting to Kill Hitler and the Doctor is put in the awkward position of telling them that they can't and or saving Hitler's life.

Doctor Who: Nazi Propaganda!

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

But he is the 13th Doctor and also the master! He must be stopped.

Clearly not a bounty hunter. The term "Let's kill Hitler" implies that its something you decide to do on a whim/for various reasons and not something that you are doing because you are ordered/paid to do.

Also on 'Let's Kill Hitler' - I haven't read anything about what that episode is going to entail but I'm betting it's Amy or Rory wanting to Kill Hitler and the Doctor is put in the awkward position of telling them that they can't and or saving Hitler's life.

Doctor Who: Nazi Propaganda!

Erm no, it's a bounty hunter, after Hitler the Doctor and River, like I already said. It wasn't speculation, that is the actual plot of the episode guys.

[BloodyMage]

Bah, like Doctor Who episodes have an actual plot.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

That's a stupid plot so I'm making my own.
Hitler was a ganger and so were all the jews. But people were discovering the secret of the jews and Hitler didn't want people to find out he was a ganger so he started his political career.

[Kim]

Erm no, it's a bounty hunter, after Hitler the Doctor and River, like I already said. It wasn't speculation, that is the actual plot of the episode guys.

I don't believe you and if you're telling the truth fucking spoiler tags you dunkass mother fucker.

Like if you seriously are spoiling this shit I will fucking cut you.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

It was in the fucking tv guide, it's hardly a fucking state secret! It's about as big a spoiler as reading the blurb on the back of a book or watching a damn trailer for gods sake, so there's no damn need for that attitude non.

EDIT; You know what, I've never done this before, but I just reported that. There was no damn need for that shit.

[POS Industries]

It doesn't really matter if it's something you can go ahead and look up, it's still technically a spoiler for people who don't want anything spoiled for them, especially in the case of a show that hasn't aired yet. The polite thing to do is operate under the assumption that they don't and go from there.

Also, it was pretty clear NonCon was being humorously overdramatic in his reaction, no need to get all upset over it.

You also don't need to announce that you've reported something and be all "OOOH YOU'RE IN TROUBLE NOW." In fact, we typically frown on it. We do, however, appreciate bringing the issue to our attention and encourage reporting posts that you feel might be over the line, but there's no reason to make a big public deal about it.

[Kim]

I guess it was a bit silly of me to assume everyone would recognize an SBaHJ reference, because I realize not everyone reads Homestuck. It just feels like everyone does and I kinda felt like "dunkass" just isn't one of those words people are ever gonna take seriously. If you were offended by my terrible internet humor, Hawk, I am sorry. I was just annoyed at the lack of spoiler tags and wanted to be internet angry about it in an overdramatic way for funsies.

[rpgdemon]

We've heard that a main character will die permantenly. They will retroactively add Hitler into all past episodes as slapstick comic relief companion and then kill him off in this episode.

I agree with Noncon about Hawk and also fuck you.

Edit: Can't believe you spoiled the Hitler plot twist.

[POS Industries]

WE ARE AWARE OF THE THREAD ALREADY THANK YOU RPG.

Spoiler tags added to Hawk's post and NonCon's quoting of it.

[rpgdemon]

YOUR FACE IS AWARE OF THE THREAD YOU'RE WELCOME POS. ALL I'M SAYIN' IS THAT I SAW THE POST, REPORTED IT AND CONTINUED SCROLLING.

[POS Industries]

Continued scrolling on to report a joke post with I'm assuming a joke report, which is actually an abuse of the report feature that we'd prefer kept at a minimum of roughly zero, before reading the rest of the thread to see that the problem was already addressed.

In the future, we ask that the same approach of "read the entire thread before posting" is also applied to reporting posts, if for no other reason than as a personal favor to us. We get emails sent to every person on the mod staff every time a post is reported, so believe me when I say that a case like this gets pretty annoying in a hurry.

[BloodyMage]

So, Doctor Who, eh?

He's pretty awesome with all that travelling through time business.

[Seil]

Paul McGann was the bestest.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

What a waste of a fantastic tite. Blergggh.

Also, river gets shot after regeneration and is completely fine whereas the Doctor gets shot during regeneration and dies? That's a bit odd. Though it looked ike River ducked the bullets? Did none of the jews ever think of that one?
Also I was secretely hoping for a second when River was regening the Doctor that the Doctor got regenned and it had been hidden from everyone. Alas not to be.

Also I thought the changing circuits were broken on the tardis which is why it can't shape anymore. But it can change size now? That would have been useful plenty of times in the past

[BloodyMage]

When did the TARDIS change size? Anyway, isn't it just the camouflage feature that's damaged? At this point, a blue police box is stands out so much that making it bigger and smaller wouldn't really make much difference.

Has a Time Lord ever been able to conjure up all of their potential regenerations to heal someone? Also, why did it take like 10 potential regenerations for that to work? Tennant once began one single regeneration, healed and then syphoned off the rest to a hand.

[BitVyper]

Urrrgh, I hate River Song and everything involving River Song.

I think I'm actually starting to look back on Rose Tyler fondly just because she wasn't River Song.

[Seil]

What was wrong with Rose? Not having seen River Song save for her stint in The Library, the Tennant companions weren't bad.

Rose is a love interest. Eccleston and Tennant were great with Rose - Eccleston's stuff was more... serious, he played it more stoic than Tennant did, but the chemistry with Rose was neat. Then Tennant came on and was a little goofy, and he and Rose were adorable.

Then Martha came around, and while I think that her plots could've done without the jealousy towards Rose, there were a few neat moments. The third season was mostly more about... I think it was The Daleks and then The Master. (Not spoilers, what with the episodes being titled Daleks In Manhatten and whatever The Master one was.)

Donna was what Martha should've been - a friend. A "mate." She just travelled with the Doctor and had a significant character development. Which promptly was erased. Quite literally. Still, her episodes were more fun than the Martha ones because she wasn't pining over the Doctor every other scene.

Jack is... well, Jack. "Ladies, your viewing figures just went up." "You're prejudiced?" "Two Doctors? I can't tell you what I'm thinking now." He's... I don't want to say comic relief, but he does a good job at it.

[synkr0nized]

Urrrgh, I hate River Song and everything involving River Song.

I think I'm actually starting to look back on Rose Tyler fondly just because she wasn't River Song.

haha what Melody is amazing.



Also, to the above: Donna and the Doctor being good mates was a good idea. But I still found her to be a boring and uninteresting companion.

[Nique]

This episode's title was completely misleading.

I blame Hawk.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

in ref to Bloodyage
When did the TARDIS change size? Anyway, isn't it just the camouflage feature that's damaged? At this point, a blue police box is stands out so much that making it bigger and smaller wouldn't really make much difference.

When it went inside robot pond and picked up the minitaure people then brought them back out and resized them to full size. How is radically changed you size NOT a part of a camoflage surface? And this is a radical change of size- according to this yuo could make the tardis ike the size of a 5p piece, keep it in your pocket- problem solved. And you can change the size of whatever is in it. Like you can make mini people or really big peope! I would do this al the time.

[synkr0nized]

Gotta agree that for now I am not satisfied that they have stuck to established TARDIS logic with size changing.

But it's worth noting that during and post-regeneration there are always residual amounts of energy floating around giving the authors plenty of room to make shit up and use it however. As far as I recall they've only ever come out and stated that there's a finite amount of times a Time Lord can regenerate, but they haven't ever claimed the energy can't be transferred, otherwise harnessed, etc. They've also definitely hinted that a Time Lord might not even look human/humanoid or could even change gender. I appreciate the desire to fit the recent episode's events within some kind of logic, but I am not sure we have enough facts with respect to regeneration to know what is and is not possible.

[Archbio]

Though you're right about the ability's conspicuous absence in every other Doctor Who episode before this one, isn't the TARDIS technically always screwing with size? Or even doing something that's like an improved version of screwing with size.

[synkr0nized]

I can state with certainty that until this episode no episode of the 2005 - current seasons showed the TARDIS in any other size than a blue police box as we all know (with respect to a person standing next to it and outside of it; the inside being bigger is all part of the time-and-relative-dimensions bit of its name). It is possible that the Doctor/River sonic'd the robot to use its miniaturization ray on the TARDIS, but then how'd it get back out at the normal size?



If we're going to continue talking about recent episodes and current theories and junk, can we just assume this thread is bad for folks who haven't watched them and drop the whole spoiler tag thing?


Or are some of you for some dumb reason not watching the episodes but still following the OP's discussion and the like?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

WMG time:
The Doctor we are with is the ganger doctor from a while back. That explains why regeneration was "disabled". He also seemed surprised at learning the date of his death which the ganger doctor doesn't know but the original Doctor does. Original Doctor is cruising around Utah without the Tardis. This is why the Doctor arrives in Utah without a Tardis- he is then killed and Ganger Doctor is the one who comes later in the episode with the tardis. This would explain the Doctor's real death as a point in time and the promise that they are actually going to kill a character. I thought it might be the ganger dying in Utah but you can clearly see a regeneration starting.
Mostly I'm explaining why he changed his cloak.

[BitVyper]

in ref to Bloodyage
When did the TARDIS change size? Anyway, isn't it just the camouflage feature that's damaged? At this point, a blue police box is stands out so much that making it bigger and smaller wouldn't really make much difference.

When it went inside robot pond and picked up the minitaure people then brought them back out and resized them to full size. How is radically changed you size NOT a part of a camoflage surface? And this is a radical change of size- according to this yuo could make the tardis ike the size of a 5p piece, keep it in your pocket- problem solved. And you can change the size of whatever is in it. Like you can make mini people or really big peope! I would do this al the time.

The Master's TARDIS was able to go from being the size of a pillar to the size of a large passenger jet back in the day. Granted though, his chameleon circuit wasn't broken, and it didn't change the size of anything inside.

I kinda doubt that's beneath Time Lord technology though.

Edit: In fact I think that's how the Doctor beat the Meddling Monk the first time around.

[Malek]

@smarty
There's still a possibility that the ganger Doctor could be capable of regenerating too.

Also, when the Doctor asked what the question was, I was half expecting them to say that that was the question.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The Master's TARDIS was able to go from being the size of a pillar to the size of a large passenger jet back in the day. Granted though, his chameleon circuit wasn't broken, and it didn't change the size of anything inside.

I kinda doubt that's beneath Time Lord technology though.

Edit: In fact I think that's how the Doctor beat the Meddling Monk the first time around.

I know other Tardis' can change size but they can also can shape and all kinds of shit. I'm saying I don't recall the Doctor's one ever doing that before. And if he can he should totally do it all the time.

@smarty
There's still a possibility that the ganger Doctor could be capable of regenerating too.

Also, when the Doctor asked what the question was, I was half expecting them to say that that was the question.

Yeah my rulig out of regeneration was I was trying to tie it into the "You can't regenerate for unexplained reasons" in this episode. Also I do think if they going with the kill the doctor route they have to kill the real one to fufill the moffat promise of killing a character properly- I can't remember the exact quote but he said it was permenant and no tricks or anything if I recall.

as for the question- they did hesitate a bit after he asked "What is the question?" I feel this is something that must have been hinted at somewhere but I can't recall anything.

[rpgdemon]

WMG time:
The Doctor we are with is the ganger doctor from a while back. That explains why regeneration was "disabled". He also seemed surprised at learning the date of his death which the ganger doctor doesn't know but the original Doctor does. Original Doctor is cruising around Utah without the Tardis. This is why the Doctor arrives in Utah without a Tardis- he is then killed and Ganger Doctor is the one who comes later in the episode with the tardis. This would explain the Doctor's real death as a point in time and the promise that they are actually going to kill a character. I thought it might be the ganger dying in Utah but you can clearly see a regeneration starting.
Mostly I'm explaining why he changed his cloak.

The ganger being the one to pick them up with the Tardis doesn't make sense: It's an earlier version of the Doctor who picks them up, who then gets a ganger made of him. Unless there's a time loop involving making a ton of gangers, every time the ganger goes back to that point in time.

[BloodyMage]

When it went inside robot pond and picked up the minitaure people then brought them back out and resized them to full size. How is radically changed you size NOT a part of a camoflage surface? And this is a radical change of size- according to this yuo could make the tardis ike the size of a 5p piece, keep it in your pocket- problem solved. And you can change the size of whatever is in it. Like you can make mini people or really big peope! I would do this al the time.

Shrinking it down and carrying it with you might be beneficial but it may not be a natural part of the camouflage system, as in it has to be manually operated from inside, as River Song did. Or it's simply a part of the camouflage system that wasn't damaged. It's stuck in the form of the blue police box, but that doesn't mean that perhaps other features don't still work.


Or are some of you for some dumb reason not watching the episodes but still following the OP's discussion and the like?

I was spoilering cause POS got maaaaaaaaaaaad...

WMG time:
The Doctor we are with is the ganger doctor from a while back. That explains why regeneration was "disabled". He also seemed surprised at learning the date of his death which the ganger doctor doesn't know but the original Doctor does. Original Doctor is cruising around Utah without the Tardis. This is why the Doctor arrives in Utah without a Tardis- he is then killed and Ganger Doctor is the one who comes later in the episode with the tardis. This would explain the Doctor's real death as a point in time and the promise that they are actually going to kill a character. I thought it might be the ganger dying in Utah but you can clearly see a regeneration starting.
Mostly I'm explaining why he changed his cloak.

Ganger Doctor is probably a red herring. Probably won't actually have anything to do Utah.

[Fifthfiend]

I don't believe you and if you're telling the truth fucking spoiler tags you dunkass mother fucker.

Like if you seriously are spoiling this shit I will fucking cut you.

It says spoilers in the title clearly demarcating this as a no-spoiler-tags-required thread, it is in fact yourself you should be cutting for reading an open-spoilers thread when you do not wish to be exposed to spoilers, HTH

PS they do not actually end up killing hitler everybody, that 100% does not happen in this episode.

What does happen is that river song shows up and is lame and then they shit away all of her other regenerations which is also lame, I kind of liked the first fifteen minutes or whatever before she turned into River though

EDIT like a while back I was saying to Bitvyper that River Song would be a million times better if she were like, Pam Grier from 1972, and then "Mel" was in the show for like 15 minutes and was sort of a little bit like that and was totally better than River Song but then she turned back into River Song and it was lame.

EDIT I still can't believe anyone anywhere in the universe could describe Arthur Davrill as "the perfect man" with a straight face, you can stop hard-selling Amy/Rory to us Steven Moffat nobody gives a shit anymore

EDIT On reflection this is objectively the best episode of Matt Smith Doctor Who in that it had Donna in it for a whole entire second making it objectively better than all of the other episodes

[POS Industries]

I was spoilering cause POS got maaaaaaaaaaaad...
You wake up to Shiney bitching about having to look at report emails on his precious cell phone a couple times in the mod forum and see if you don't get all grumpypantsed.

It says spoilers in the title clearly demarcating this as a no-spoiler-tags-required thread, it is in fact yourself you should be cutting for reading an open-spoilers thread when you do not wish to be exposed to spoilers, HTH
I edited the thread title after the thread got reported multiple times while also editing spoiler tags into Hawk's post. The post you're quoting preceded that chain of events.

I admit to going overboard a little, but I figured it was all better safe than sorry.

[Seil]

You wake up to Shiney

I thought he was married?

EDIT Also, since this seems like an alright place to ask: is Torchwood any good? The Sarah Jane adventures looks like a kiddie show, but apparently Torchwood is supposed to be the "Adult" Doctor Who.

[Fifthfiend]

I edited the thread title after the thread got reported multiple times while also editing spoiler tags into Hawk's post. The post you're quoting preceded that chain of events.

I admit to going overboard a little, but I figured it was all better safe than sorry.

I should have realized this on the basis that the alternative was that Seil put actual thought into titling a thread.

The same title of a thread in which he uses the word fallacies despite not knowing what that word means.

Basically what I'm saying is we should blame everything wrong with this thread on Seil.

[Seil]

...The last time (http://nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1104288) I tried that, people didn't want to.

[Archbio]

Man, no, Torchwood isn't Adult Doctor Who, it's Affected Teen Doctor Who.

[Seil]

EDIT On reflection this is objectively the best episode of Matt Smith Doctor Who in that it had Donna in it for a whole entire second making it objectively better than all of the other episodes

Eh, Rose and Jack and Grace were better.

Also, I'm expecting the spin-offs (obviously) to not be as good as the original, but the question I'm asking is whether or not it's worth a look.

[Archbio]

Does Affected Teen Doctor Who sound like a recommendation to anyone?

If you want to see super sekrit police agents fight an alien made up of orgasms in a show that's billed as being Adult, then it's worth a look.

---

Anyway, I've consulted with a Panel of Experts and we've come to the conclusion that Lets Kill Hitler would have been better if they hadn't tried and compress all of River Song's character arc (which would have been worth several episodes, and maybe several regenerations) in it, in addition to cramming it in the severed neck of a mutilated episode concept about someone stealing the Doctor's TARDIS in order to do what most of us would do with a time machine: try and rectify the past.

It's two ideas that deserved better.

And if the two absolutely needed to coexist, you can have Amy and Rory have two delinquent friends (a paired set of hoodlums, only one's secretly Human+,) so that the conflicting motivations can maybe make a lick of sense? Have Mels hang back a bit.

Do-over!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The ganger being the one to pick them up with the Tardis doesn't make sense: It's an earlier version of the Doctor who picks them up, who then gets a ganger made of him. Unless there's a time loop involving making a ton of gangers, every time the ganger goes back to that point in time.
They could have swapped at any point easily. There's bucketloads of time we don't see. Probably during the war with the silence sometime.

[Nique]

The episode failed at everything that Moffat's Who run was doing right. I don't care that River Song is someone else for a while or about regeneration and TARDIS rules and stuff that is easy to explain away becuase it's Doctor Who - But to have no kind of meaningful exploration of the issues surrounding traveling back in time to interact with Hitler, discovering that you've lost your child only to have grown up side by side her, or the ethics of torturing long-dead villains of the past? The episode was empty and haphazard in so many ways. Easily the most disappointing episode of new Who.

Characters and meaningful drama are driving season 5 and 6 HARD. This episode ignored crucial opportunities for Amy and Rory's development and ruined a lot of what was good about River Song who was, previously, an independent and mysterious character who could stand as equal to the Doctor in her own right. Now her entire character is dependent on the Doctor which makes their romantic relationship extremely weird to me.

At the very least they could have given us an episode that was a break from all the drama and just punched Hitler in the face a million times.

Rose and Jack and Grace were better.

Rose was annoying until she was a side-character, Grace I have no frame of reference for but would guess that Donna was more entertaining. Jack was awesome though.

[Archbio]

And when are they going to get rid of the daft Amy recap between the cold open and the theme sequence?

What's the point of having a bitching theme if you break the combo like that. And we all know who the Doctor is, yeesh.

[Nique]

This may have been touched on already but it's strictly an American thing. I hate it too.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

And when are they going to get rid of the daft Amy recap between the cold open and the theme sequence?

What's the point of having a bitching theme if you break the combo like that. And we all know who the Doctor is, yeesh.

We totally don't get that in Britain episodes.

I totally agree with all the criticisms of the episodes that why I just said Blerrrrgh or something similar. As there was not a lot to work with character/story wise that's why I'm discussing ridiculous theories about gangers and whether the tardis can shrink or not. Cause the rest of it was prettty nonsense. Mostly becuase River sucks.

[synkr0nized]

Characters and meaningful drama are driving season 5 and 6 HARD. This episode ignored crucial opportunities for Amy and Rory's development and ruined a lot of what was good about River Song who was, previously, an independent and mysterious character who could stand as equal to the Doctor in her own right. Now her entire character is dependent on the Doctor which makes their romantic relationship extremely weird to me.


Would you mind expanding on this more? Specifically, what has made her less independent? I would also argue that any inclusion of more of her story, regardless of what it was/is/becomes, will necessarilly do away with much of the mystery (heck we even were told from the start we'd get it all), but I am interested in hearing your thoughts [or others, I suppose?] on why this one episode has "ruined" Melody Pond or somehow altered her relationship with the Doctor from what it was before. Clearly it should show that I don't agree, but I totally enjoy talkin' about this series with my friends and seeing how that affects my opinion.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It was a pretty ridiculous turnaround from "I'm going to kill the Doctor" to "oh no the doctor is dying, et's give him all my lives". She always seemed much more headstrong than that. I didn't buy it anyway.

[Nique]

Hmm. Well, clearly the 'mystery' of River Song was bound to be revealed and I don't have an issue with that. And it's not that the nature of her association with the Doctor makes the fictional person of River less independent or impressive within the universe she exists in, exactly, though it could. It's more that she is now less interesting to watch as one of the Doctor's associates in that, just like every other companion, he is more or less directly responsible for who she is. For one, it makes viewing her as a character less interesting and it misses an opportunity to give us another truly cool character like Jack was. For another thing, it makes the person, River, no longer an equal to the Doctor - he is her idol, in a way, and, as I said, that makes me feel weird about their romance.

I guess to try and simplify that - River was more interesting and empowered when she appeared to have her own life and motivations outside of the Doctor, even though he was clearly an important influence. Now that all of her motives and actions revolve around or stem from the Doctor, I find her much more boring.

I've always liked the character and I can see how someone wouldn't really adopt this perspective on it - Maybe I'm biased in what I was expecting for the character. I don't think so though as I was totally ok with River being part Timelord and being Amy's daughter. It was this specific episode that added in elements I felt weakened the character.

[Archbio]

I would also argue that any inclusion of more of her story, regardless of what it was/is/becomes, will necessarilly do away with much of the mystery (heck we even were told from the start we'd get it all), but I am interested in hearing your thoughts [or others, I suppose?] on why this one episode has "ruined" Melody Pond[...]

There's "doing away" with mystery by showing more elements of a story onscreen, and there's substracting from the amount of detail in the story, which is what I feel they did here. It's the first episode with brainwashed Melody Pond as such... and she doesn't even make it to the end as brainwashed Melody Pond, as the Doctor has all but triumphed over the conditioning by the end.*

So not only has Melody Pond been skipped right to looking like Alex Kingston (instead of there being more done with her regenerating nature, which could have provided, among other things, some illustration for her character arc,) but she also seems to be most of the way to being River Song in mind as well. Suddenly her story seems much shorter than it did one episode ago. Much more cramped.

*Though my prediction is that The Doctor's death (when he stops running) will turn out to be about freeing Melody from her programming by fulfilling its objective by sacrificing himself.

[BitVyper]

I never found River all that interesting. She's always felt like a writer's pet character to me. Also I dislike the actress playing her. I didn't mind her so much in her first appearance; I think she worked better with Tennant the actor and Doctor number ten.

I've found her and her affect on the plot and writing quality progressively more offensive in each appearance since. Now she's fooling the Doctor with things that don't even make sense. He KNOWS she uses poison lipstick. It's a big part of her modus operandi, and the scene made a point of showing that he was one hundred percent absolutely prepared for her to try and kill him to the point of knowing where she'd reach for a gun. And somehow he's just not ready for her to do the very thing that he knows she does all the time in the future? I could almost buy that being a genuine mistake because that stuff is in the future, but then they're all like "it's the one thing he couldn't account for!" The fuck? And this kind of thing happens constantly when River is involved in the plot. Just like not checking the baby in When a Good Man Goes to War. As soon as it's a River Song episode, the Doctor starts getting written stupid.

[Nique]

Much more cramped.

And far less substance, as a result.


*Though my prediction is that The Doctor's death (when he stops running) will turn out to be about freeing Melody from her programming by fulfilling its objective by sacrificing himself.

Wow. I really hope it's this or something equally as interesting. I think the Doctor's ganger will play a role in keeping the Doctor alive if he hasn't already (I think it was Smarty who suggested that at some point in this episode or between this one and the last episode that the Doctor had retrieved his ganger who, presumably, would not normally be capable of regeneration and received all of River's regeneration energy).

As soon as it's a River Song episode, the Doctor starts getting written stupid.

Not that I agree, but I wonder if the writers will come to feel about River Song as Douglas Adams came to feel about Fenchurch. A lot of fans dislike her a lot.

Although, you really don't like Alex Kingston? I've always thought she was pretty excellent.

[Fifthfiend]

Not that I agree, but I wonder if the writers will come to feel about River Song as Douglas Adams came to feel about Fenchurch.

You shut the goddamn hell up about Fenchurch.

[Nique]

TBH I was really digging that book and the character until he wrote her out and destroyed all of the earths ever. I recall hearing something about him being in a really dark place at the time but he basically said that she was holding up the story.

[BitVyper]

Like, if there were a list of things NOT to do when River Song is your adversary, "let her kiss you" would be hovering over top in big, flaming letters.

[Kim]

I liked the episode. I've always thought River Song was terrible every appearance after Silence in the Library except for very brief moments where I enjoyed her antics. I think she was at her least terrible this episode because she was adversarial. If I have a complaint it's that I wish she was an enemy for much, much longer because enemy River is so much cooler than friend River.

It was full of plot holes but honestly I'm starting to get tired of looking for plot holes because Doc Who logic gets messier every season and it's still not as fucking stupid as how the Doctor once got regenerated by the people of Earth clapping their hands and saying, "I do! I do! I do believe in fairies!" The Hitler thing was unnecessary and waste, though. So much more that could be done with a Hitler episode.

So yeah, liked it, but it could have been better and the sooner River Song is dead forever the better.

[Kim]

I will forever lament that this episode didn't result in Hitler being the Doctor's companion for the rest of the season as the Doctor tried to turn him into a good person and rewrite history without murdering him.

[BloodyMage]

That would have been awesome.

I agree with the actress being rather annoying at times, but generally, I enjoy River Song when she's working along side the Doctor and her parents to take down some greater evil. It's the episodes where she's at the centre of attention that I find her less tolerable.

[Steel Shadow]

River's annoying, but Mels was amazingly worse, I agree with Non on plot hole hunting, Rory was cool, the villain is just a terrible idea and I hope they get what's coming to them in a future episode for having such a stupid purpose, and I'm finally all caught up. Yay.

I did feel that Matt Smith's acting was pretty good in this one. Very Doctory. So that was nice. Hitler was just a distraction, which is... Well, fair enough, I guess.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Also how incompetent were those time travelling assassin dudes? Like they murdered a nazi, took his place, start to take out Hitler then "whooops, forgot to check the date". Like isn't that the absolute first thing you woud do.

[BloodyMage]

That did come across as extremely sloppy.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It was obviously done to build mystery about these guys "Why are they too early? What does that mean?" but it didn't really work for me.

[rpgdemon]

I never found River all that interesting. She's always felt like a writer's pet character to me. Also I dislike the actress playing her. I didn't mind her so much in her first appearance; I think she worked better with Tennant the actor and Doctor number ten.

I've found her and her affect on the plot and writing quality progressively more offensive in each appearance since. Now she's fooling the Doctor with things that don't even make sense. He KNOWS she uses poison lipstick. It's a big part of her modus operandi, and the scene made a point of showing that he was one hundred percent absolutely prepared for her to try and kill him to the point of knowing where she'd reach for a gun. And somehow he's just not ready for her to do the very thing that he knows she does all the time in the future? I could almost buy that being a genuine mistake because that stuff is in the future, but then they're all like "it's the one thing he couldn't account for!" The fuck? And this kind of thing happens constantly when River is involved in the plot. Just like not checking the baby in When a Good Man Goes to War. As soon as it's a River Song episode, the Doctor starts getting written stupid.

I dunno, The Doctor not accounting for romance sounds in character. Remember when David Tennant turned human for that bit, and didn't think to leave Martha instructions on what to do if he falls in love?

[rpgdemon]

I liked the episode. I've always thought River Song was terrible every appearance after Silence in the Library

Silence in the Library

Silence

Duhn duhn duuuuuuh!

[Fifthfiend]

he basically said that she was holding up the story.

If I ever have a time machine and a gun I'm going back and pistol-whipping Douglas Adams.

[BloodyMage]

Duhn duhn duuuuuuh!

She also shows up in an astronaut suit. The episode is really just pure foreshadowing for Steven Moffat's take over.

[synkr0nized]

Huh.

What's fun about this, to me, is that I completely get where folks are coming from despite not feeling the same way about several things. For those of you who seem to have never liked her from the start, word up. For those of you who are only now/recently making that decision, I guess that sucks for her? I always saw her as 100% tied to the Doctor but not fortunate enough to have more than a minute chance of controlling when they crossed paths. Leaving us little clues throughout their meetings to lead up to her Time Lord development and being Melody was fun, in my opinion, but I will agree that spooging all of the fun of that out in one simple episode was disappointing. But I don't find knowing why she is amazing with weapons and also a professor detracts from these aspects.


But I also didn't mind Rose and don't like Donna, so I am thinking I am not in a majority view here?




I do hope we can all agree that Rory is the best, though.

[Nique]

I do hope we can all agree that Rory is the best, though.

My wife agrees with you

[rpgdemon]

For everyone going, "SHE'S WAY DIFFERENT AND TOTALLY NOT AS COOL AND MYSTERIOUS AND STUFF AS OLD RIVER, AND WAY LESS INDEPENDENTLY BETTER THAN THE DOCTOR", I think that's the point. She and The Doctor meet backwards, so it makes sense that as we see more of her, she seems less competent and The Doctor more so.

Part of what made her so mysterious and such was that she knew things that we, and more importantly, The Doctor didn't. Now their roles have been reversed, since we've crossed over to the point where she's first meeting the Doctor, and he's got all this foreknowledge of her.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Rory is the best. Something terrible will happpen to him though.

[BloodyMage]

I'm interested in where Silence in the Library actually fits in with the continuity; Let's kill Hitler explicitly shows River Song applying to be an Archaeologist. We know in Silence of the Library she is investigating the library under a funded expedition, and it makes little sense why they would invest in a criminal, so this pre-dates her prison sentence.

However, she mentions in Silence of the Library a list of adventures from her little blue books, those being: "The Crash of the Byzantium", "A picnic at Asgard" and "the end of the universe". Byzantium is the name of the ship in Flesh and Stone, A picnic at Asgard is generally taken to be the Valley of Gods in Utah, and the end of the universe is most likely The Big Bang.

Given these facts, River Song will have to be downloaded from her preserved state on CAL, before she can be imprisoned. There's only one reason that might not happen this season: There's an allusion to The Doctor and River Song acting like a married couple in Silence of the Library, which is probably alluding to an event that hasn't happened...yet.

[rpgdemon]

Is that a spoiler coming up, or already happened?

Edit: Since, I don't want to click it to spoil something coming up.

[BloodyMage]

Bit of both really.

[Fifthfiend]

don't like Donna

http://i606.photobucket.com/albums/tt148/fifthfiend/reactions/qn0g8n.gif

I do hope we can all agree that Rory is the best, though.

THE ONLY PEACE WITH DONNA-HATERS IS THE PEACE OF THE GRAVE

[Nique]

For everyone going, "SHE'S WAY DIFFERENT AND TOTALLY NOT AS COOL AND MYSTERIOUS AND STUFF AS OLD RIVER, AND WAY LESS INDEPENDENTLY BETTER THAN THE DOCTOR", I think that's the point. She and The Doctor meet backwards, so it makes sense that as we see more of her, she seems less competent and The Doctor more so..

No, it's not that young River is less accomplished or less cool than older River. Like, that's not it at all. It's that, based on the last episode, the entire character relies on the Doctor in a way that makes her decidedly less interesting and less believable as someone who grows to be an equal of the Doctor.

However naive they show her in her early life is fine, but her motivation for everything awesome we've seen her do in the show from Silence in the Library up until now is based on her obsession with the Doctor. Now, it's entirely possible that they will continue to round out the character to give her more of the substance that I've been expecting, but they crammed a LOT of her backstory into this episode and as it stands I don't care for it.

....so this pre-dates her prison sentence.

I don't think so... We meet River at the "end" of her life in the Library episodes. As you said; She mentions the Byzantium, Asgard etc. Those things occur either during or shortly after her prison sentence (in fact, the Byzantium episode implies that this mission was going towards her earning a pardon). Also, she is not yet a professor during those instances, whereas she is in the library.


As near as I can figure, River Song's timeline goes as follows:


"A Good Man Goes to War"
In the early 52nd century Amy gives birth to her and Rory's daughter, Melody Pond, while being held captive in Demons Run by the Church and their partners, The Headless Monks, who are being directed by the religious order known as 'The Silence' as mentioned in 'Let's Kill Hitler'. The Silence are possibly responsible for the cracks in the universe from series 5.

Melody is, due to being conceived on the TARDIS, part Time Lord. Melody is replaced by a ganger briefly while being kidnapped by Madame Kovarian to become a weapon against the Doctor.

"The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon"
In the 1960s, a little girl in a space suit/life support unit is being held by an alien race who are, ostensibly, associated with The Silence. This girl makes attempts to contact U.S. President Nixon and encounters Amy Pond. The girl somehow appears in 1970s New York City. Hurt or sick, she begins to regenerate. From what we later learn of her, it is clear that this girl is, indeed, Melody Pond.

"Let's Kill Hitler"
From the 1970s to 2011, after regenerating as a toddler in New York, Melody somehow comes to England to become Rory and Amy's childhood friend. Due to her mother's encounter with The Doctor and her own conditioning/brainwashing, Melody develops anti-social, possibly psychopathic, tendencies and an obsession with The Doctor. Traveling back to 1938 Berlin, she regenerates into her current form, played by Alex Kingston. Melody has been conditioned by The Silence to kill the Doctor and attempts to do so with poison. The religious order known as 'The Silence', as well as their war against The Doctor, is mentioned. FOR POORLY EXPLAINED REASONS, Melody saves the Doctor with her regeneration energy, permanently losing her ability to regenerate. The Doctor takes Melody/River back to a hospital in the early 52nd century and gives her a blank, blue diary. River later enrolls to study archaeology in 5123, a skill she later uses to contact and possibly track down The Doctor.

UPDATES!

"Closing Time"-
Doctor Song is kidnapped and timeported back to Utah 2011 to fulfill her mission to kill the Doctor


"The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon"
In 2011, Utah, a person appears in a spacesuit and kills an 1100+ year old Doctor. 'Let's Kill Hitler' seems to confirm that this is in fact River Song.

?????????????
It is unclear how much of their relationship River experienced prior to killing him in 2011, if any at all. It stands to reason that they would have the time and freedom to explore a relationship with each other prior to The Doctor's murder, as River would not have been imprisoned in Stormcage or been plagued by a sense of guilt. However, it is not clear at this point if River is fully capable to overcome her conditioned initiative to kill The Doctor. If not, this would make a relationship prior (from her perspective) to his death difficult, at best.

UPDATE - Per "Closing Time" It seems that the majority of their relationship does indeed take place after River kills the Doctor

"The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon"
At Stormcage in the mid-to-late 51st century, River is being held for killing 'the best man she's ever known' (as she later states at the crash of the Byzantium). River along with Rory and Amy have been contacted by an 1100+ year old version of the Doctor to convene in the state of Utah in 2011. According to their diaries, River has had a number of experiences with this version of The Doctor, including an encounter with 'Jim The Fish'. River does not seem worried about the time or place that they are in, so it is not entirely clear if she is able to clearly remember the experience of murdering The Doctor.

This future version of The Doctor is murdered in front of River, Rory and Amy. River attempts to shoot the attacker (her younger self) and fails, an outcome which she seems to expect as she whispers 'No, of course not'. The group then encounters the current, 900 year old, version of the Doctor - still alive and unaware of his fate. River forces Amy and Rory to remain silent regarding the Doctor's future death so as not to corrupt his time stream, and comments on her fear of one day encountering an even earlier version of the Doctor at a time when he does not know who she is.

The four travel back to 1960 where, over the course of months, they track a group of aliens who are associated with The Silence alongside members of the FBI. River later kills a number of these aliens with her blaster gun, and the remaining aliens are revealed via broadcast of the moon landing to the population. This foils at least part of their plan. River is returned to Stormcage at the end of this episode where her and the Doctor share a kiss - his first with her and, possibly, she seems to fear, her last with him. Her reaction to this at least implies that the much of The Doctor and River's relationship has already occurred from her perspective. However it is indicated in later episodes that River's future self still has many encounters with the Doctor (her Birthday on the River Thames in 1814 for example).

"A Good Man Goes to War"
Taking place in the early 52nd century at Demons Run, River arrives in her own past after her younger self is kidnapped to reveal to her identity as Melody Pond to The Doctor and her Parents. It is possible that this happens, from River's perspective, very shortly after the events of 'Day of the Moon', as she is here wearing a very similar outfit to the one worn at the end of that episode.

"The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang"
In the 51st or 52nd century, River is still being held at the Stormcage Containment Facility. River escapes after being contacted by Winston Churchill regarding a crisis surrounding The Doctor, and so leads the Doctor to 102 A.D. to meet her. Eventually traveling to 1996, River assists the Doctor in closing the crack in the universe*. The Doctor is, briefly, erased from time. River's whereabouts after this are unknown, though she may possibly have been returned to Stormcage.

At the end of these episodes, taking place in 2010, River arrives at her parent's wedding and reminds Amy of the Doctor, bringing him back into existence. She tells the Doctor that he will soon learn the truth about her, after which 'everything changes'. This is an event has already occurred from her perspective, taking place at the end of 'A Good Man Goes to War'.

*The Silence are likely responsible for the 'cracks' in the universe featured in series 5 - River's experience with The Silence up to this point in her timeline may have something to do with her involvement in the events of 'The Big Bang'.

"A Good Man Goes to War"
On an unspecified date in the 51st or 52nd century during River Song's incarceration in Stormcage. It is implied here that The Doctor and River are still in regular contact. Rory and River have the following exchange;

River: “It’s my birthday. The Doctor took me ice skating on the River Thames in 1814 – the last of the great frost fairs. He got Stevie Wonder to sing for me under London Bridge.”
Rory: “Stevie Wonder sang in 1814?”
River: "Yes. But you must never tell him."

Here Rory attempts to solicit River Song's assistance in their search for Amy. River begrudgingly refuses to accompany them, having already experienced the events at Demons Run*;

River: "This is the Battle of Demon's Run. The Doctor's darkest hour. He'll rise higher than ever before and then fall so much further. And I can't be with him until the very end."
Rory: "Why not?"
River: "Because this is it. This is the day he finds out who I am."

*It is possible, though unlikely, that this version of River pre-dates the one featured at the end of 'Day of the Moon' since River's sadness over her and The Doctor's last kiss in that episode may have indicated the end of their romance from her perspective. A younger version of River could, conceivably, possess limited knowledge of her own future and thus be aware of her adult self's presence at Demons Run. It seems more likely, however, that this version of River has already experienced this event.

"The Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Stone"
Doctor River Song encounters The Doctor, his first time seeing her since regenerating into his eleventh form, and Amy's first time meeting River (as opposed to 'Mels'), from their perspective. The Doctor is aware that River Song is someone important from his future, Amy suspects that River becomes the Doctor's wife. At the end of 'Flesh and Stone', River reveals to The Doctor that she is imprisoned in Stormcage for killing "the best man she had ever known". River may be working with the Church* in order to earn a pardon or release from this sentence.

*As the Church seems willing to work with The Doctor here, it may imply that they have not yet joined The Silence and The Headless Monks as they will in the 52nd century.

??????????
Beyond the fact that she is freed from Stormcage, becomes a professor, and has further interactions with the Doctor, it is unknown what exactly happens to River up until 'Silence in the Library'. Especially confusing is the time frame in which River Song lives. She is incarcerated and released from Stormcage during the mid 51st century as well as the 52nd century. Even more confusing is the fact that after River's release, she is active in the 50th century when the 'Silence in the Library' takes place.

Since River will recognize the tenth Doctor's appearance, this may imply that she will receive a visit from the tenth Doctor at some point before her experience with him in the Library. Though this is never seen on air, they may have had a brief encounter when the tenth Doctor manages to visit old companions during the early stages of his regeneration cycle. At some point after Stormcage, River acquires a Sonic Screwdriver from the Doctor when he takes her to see the singing towers of Darillium.

"Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead"
In the 50th century Professor Song encounters the Tenth Doctor, their first meeting from his perspective - An event 'foreshadowed' by River during 'The Impossible Astronaut'. River claims to be someone that The Doctor will come to trust completely. River Song nearly dies but is kept alive in the virtual reality of the Library's computer system.


Source: Wikipedia and Youtube, mostly.

[BloodyMage]

I don't think so... We meet River at the "end" of her life in the Library episodes. As you said; She mentions the Byzantium, Asgard etc. Those things occur either during or shortly after her prison sentence (in fact, the Byzantium episode implies that this mission was going towards her earning a pardon). Also, she is not yet a professor during those instances, whereas she is in the library.

I get that, really, I do. River Song even states at one point that she fears the time she meets a Doctor who doesn't know her. However, the library exhibition wasn't, as you said of the Byzantium crash, a means for a pardon, it was externally funded by someone other than the university or endorsed by Stormcage. So why exactly would he hire a criminal? A professor sure, but a criminal none the less that he couldn't trust.

I will admit however, a lot of this comes from my distrust of the ending to the Forest of the Dead. Why bother with the chip in the sonic screwdriver to upload her? Was it so bad for her to die and vanish, but she now exists eternally in CAL's data system? It seems like the sort of thing the Doctor might do in case something went wrong. So I don't trust it. I don't think that's her genuine end.

[Nique]

The fact that she is a Professor in the 50th century where she was in jail during the 51st century may have something to do with the fact that she is a free woman. Her timeline is all kinds of messed up.

[Nique]

Hmm. The Doctor Who Site (http://www.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/features/river-songs-diary/) seems to disagree with my timeline.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Pffft what do they know

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I don't know what has happened to Amy's head but I suspect she has eaten too many lemons. Her head was small and yellow this episode.

[BloodyMage]

Did Rory forget all of his adventures thus far in this episode? He went around acting like all of this was impossible after he'd faced the end of the world, been made of plastic, lived for centuries, and seen Amy bring the Doctor back into existence by pure memory. George's father seemed to believe faster than he did :/

[Kim]

Well that episode was pretty boring. First half hour just dragged on and on and the end was only kinda interesting but mostly shrug. Next episode looks better.

[rpgdemon]

Well that episode was pretty boring. First half hour just dragged on and on and the end was only kinda interesting but mostly shrug. Next episode looks better.

Next episode looks AWESOME.

[Kim]

It has Doc Scratch!

[Nique]

I really liked this last episode - it was decently scary and as much as a like River it was nice to see a more or less standard Who episode about monsters.

[BloodyMage]

The lack of River Song was refreshing.

[Kim]

I thought this episode was pretty aces.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm getting annoyed with the same few themes just being rammed inoer and over- being stranded for ages/waiting, alternative forms of the main character, everyone dying.

[Kim]

I was more annoyed with repetition with the preview for the next episode, AKA More "Scary" Doctor Who.

[Arhra]

Did Rory forget all of his adventures thus far in this episode? He went around acting like all of this was impossible after he'd faced the end of the world, been made of plastic, lived for centuries, and seen Amy bring the Doctor back into existence by pure memory. George's father seemed to believe faster than he did :/

What are you talking about?

I was quite entertained by how quickly he formed theories after the lift. What with first assuming they were dead (again) and then that it was a temporal hiccough that had sent them into another time.

They did really overplay trying to use colour for setting the mood though. It was a very yellow episode in general.

Also fairly average but that is neither here nor there.

[BloodyMage]

Apart from the fact that Rory walked about acting as if a monster/alien in modern times in a apartment/flat block was utterly ridiculous and they were wasting their time. First thing he says as he gets off the TARDIS is that they could have gotten a bus to the apartments, as if this was beneath him and that his first experience with aliens hadn't been in an ordinary hospital with coma patients. I mean, Amy is similar, but she seem more disappointed whereas Rory seemed genuinely annoyed at having to go door to door in a council estate on Earth. He meets up with the Doctor and asks 'What are we actually looking for?' He hasn't literally forgotten, he's just peeved at genuinely looking for a child.


And the point he even says "The TARDIS has gone funny again, some time-slippy thing." while valid, is said as a scathing, weary remark rather than a realisation. He treated The Doctor like just an blithering idiot, which while it often appears as such is never truly the case.

I preferred the most recent episode. While the ending was predictable the concept was a nice twist on the usual idea found in 'A Good Man Goes to War' and 'Journey's End' of the Doctor being a warrior and his companions becoming weapons but that being separated from the Doctor and having his promise broken has much the same result.

[Arhra]

To be fair to Rory, council flats are the most horrible places on Earth.

[Nique]

Hand-bots: way more scary than I thought they were going to be. Also, was secretly hoping for fulfillment of menage a trois jokes and consistency in paradoxes the TARDIS is capable of sustaining (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Paradox_machine).

[Kim]

Didn't rebuilding the TARDIS as a paradox machine take a substantial amount of time, IIRC?

[Fifthfiend]

To be fair to Rory, council flats are the most horrible places on Earth.

Are council flats like, the English version of the projects?

[Arcanum]

Didn't rebuilding the TARDIS as a paradox machine take a substantial amount of time, IIRC?

That and it was technically no longer a TARDIS either, since the only thing it could do was sustain the paradox.

[rpgdemon]

That and it was technically no longer a TARDIS either, since the only thing it could do was sustain the paradox.

And it was killing the Tardis.

[Fifthfiend]

I'm glad they got rid of Old Amy, they were dangerously close to giving Amy actual character development and thank goodness they pulled away from that edge.

Also, she was all old 'n' shit.

[Archbio]

And Rory wouldn't have had enough quality time with her before she got even older!

Won't someone think of Rory?!

[Archbio]

Obviously decisions on the very existence of a person should hinge on their significant other.

[Steel Shadow]

Huh. Wow, for an episode that started out pretty well, I sure was filled with rage by the end! Impressive, I thought I'd stopped taking this show so seriously.

Oh well. At least Rory wasn't to bad. sure, he didn't do much impressive (Aside from calling out the Doctor, that was kinda fun), but he also didn't make things worse with future!Amy by pointing out he'd waited much longer than 36 years when she was in the Pandorica without going all 'Hate everything now' mode.

Though the paradox thing, I dunno. There's been two Doctors in the Tardis without too many problems. And back when Rose went back to see her father die it didn't kick up a fuss about there being two of her around... That big machine was for a paradox on a pretty big scale, too. Y'know, going back and slaughtering your ancestors, that sort of thing.

...I know, I know. I'll stop trying to make it make sense. *Sigh*

[BloodyMage]

Though the paradox thing, I dunno. There's been two Doctors in the Tardis without too many problems. And back when Rose went back to see her father die it didn't kick up a fuss about there being two of her around... That big machine was for a paradox on a pretty big scale, too. Y'know, going back and slaughtering your ancestors, that sort of thing.

The only time there's been a second Doctor which would be a paradox is when the Tardis has met itself in a previous time stream, a previous incarnation has turned up. It's possible in that case that it was sustained by the Time Lords, since that is what they're meant to do. Maybe though, the rules are just different for Time Lords.

It's not made clear though, when something would require Time Lord intervention and when the would universe rectifying itself; such as with Rose going to see her Dad and causing a paradox where winged beasts ate everyone involved in the paradox until it was fixed.

Also, the Paradox was made by destroying all of the TARDIS' primary functions. Technically, he was probably being honest about it being possible, but it'd be pointless, because they'd be trapped in that facility with two Amys.

[Steel Shadow]

I think I'll stick with "The writers really don't care. At all."

[Fifthfiend]

Huh. Wow, for an episode that started out pretty well, I sure was filled with rage by the end! Impressive, I thought I'd stopped taking this show so seriously.

Oh well. At least Rory wasn't to bad. sure, he didn't do much impressive (Aside from calling out the Doctor, that was kinda fun), but he also didn't make things worse with future!Amy by pointing out he'd waited much longer than 36 years when she was in the Pandorica without going all 'Hate everything now' mode.

Yeah I don't think anyone covered themselves in glory in that one. Rory called the doctor on some of his shit which would have been better if Rory himself didn't come across as kind of a selfish douche.

And why is the Doctor even telling Rory it's his business to decide which Amy lives or dies? Shouldn't that be the call of, you know, the Amies or something? That plus the bit where the whole reason Old Amy agrees to die - after she's been locked out of the TARDIS, mind - is so Rory can hang out with young her.

IDK like the parts of a good episode were in there but just connected up in a really offputting way.

...Not getting into whether it was or wasn't canonically possible for the Doctor to do this or that with paradoxes because everything is always possible or impossible depending on the needs of the particular episode. I'm just saying it'd be a better episode if it had turned out to be possible in this episode to merge Amies into one personality, or split Old Amy off into an alternate reality, or just have the Doctor make some one-off exception where two Amies totally can exist in the same timestream. Or even if everyone makes exactly the same sacrifices at the same times as they do in the episode as it stands, but for substantially less-gooberish reasons.

[Kim]

Fuck I didn't even think about that and now it's going to bug me forever.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Old Amy had spent too long as a psychotic killer, always hunting, always hating. She coud never be a productive member of society again. Like a zoo animal can't be released back into the wild but reverse.

[Fifthfiend]

The Doctor, much like your local municipality's public zoo, follows the unimpeachable ethical standard of "go ahead and kill 'em if there's a cuter one available".

[BloodyMage]

They probably were going to actually leave Young Amy and take Old Amy, but the make-up artists couldn't be assed putting so much effort in to what looked like some wrinkles and a bad tan job again.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The Doctor, much like your local municipality's public zoo, follows the unimpeachable ethical standard of "go ahead and kill 'em if there's a cuter one available".

You'll get 30 years good service out of the young one,maybe 10 out of the older.

[Nique]

merge Amies into one personality

I hate this kind of retrospect. Good ideas like this after the fact fill me with... longing.

[Fifthfiend]

Poor science fiction writing leads to retrospection

Retrospection leads to longing

And longing leads... to the fan fiction

[Seil]

http://img1.ranker.com/user_node_img/6398/1000146874/300/captain-kirk-and-mr-spock-tv-character-photo-u1.jpg

[Nique]

I just realized that Seil has like the most rep on the forum.

[Seil]

Nah, not really. Other people've got more'n me. NonCon, my most hated foe, for instance.

EDITSeil posts need to be in like The Lourve or something.

lol (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M)

[Satan's Onion]

Poor science fiction writing leads to retrospection

Retrospection leads to longing

And longing leads... to the fan fiction

Come to the dark side

Let the man-love flow through you

[Seil]

What... Torchwood? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xekxd9WgAlQ)

[Kim]

[color=pink]Nah, not really. Other people've got more'n me. NonCon, my most hated foe, for instance.


How do you know?!?!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

that episode was pretty much a buiding up to the final twist I guess. Fairly bogstandard episode I think, not a whole lot to discuss except the ending.
Is that really the end for Amy and Rory? I reckon they'l be a one episode break to go play with James Cordon then they' be back They not going to make Doctor without a companion and generally new companions get leaked pretty early. Like they can do one shots where he goes to visit people ike nex tweek but won't last very long.

And one of Amy, Rory, Doctor is supposed to die this season and if you ditch two of those it pretty obvious who it will be.

E: Actually they seem to do about 1 companion-lite and 1 doctor-lite episode a season, I recall them saying they do it because it makes filming schedules easier- and this could totally just be the setup for a companion lite episode.

[Kim]

I feel like something will happen, most likely involving River, that will cause Rory and Amy to show up during the season finale regardless of what the Doctor does, and that he will have to save them or some such.

[Archbio]

Alright, I loved this episode, even though the twist at the end seemed too abrupt. I'm a little confused about why Rory talked about the Doctor in the past tense at about a quarter of the way into the episode, and I didn't get that it was actually the Ponds' house at first at the end.

There just doesn't seem to be a huge commitment to clarity this season.

The episode's title, plus the shots of just the eye of the minotaur had me briefly thinking it might be the Dalek Emperor from way back when, but that would have been weird.

Edit: Not weird like a space prison for a faith eating minotaur that looks like a 1980s hotel, but more weird like: it's odd that they'd go through the trouble of dissociating themselves from Davies' Daleks only to rely on a distant callback like that for a whole episode.

And I guess Rory's past tense was him being resigned to what seemed like a reasonable expectation at the time: dying in the maze, which illustrates his general lack of faithitude.

[Nique]

And I guess Rory's past tense was him being resigned to what seemed like a reasonable expectation at the time: dying in the maze, which illustrates his general lack of faithitude.

I took it as some kind of reference to the Doctor's pastfuture*grk* death or some bit of pseudo-foreshadowing, but I think you're right - It makes more sense that it was part of what led The Doctor to figuring out what the trick was... Just not really clear on that point during the episode.

So if the rooms were about what you're afraid of, then why was Amy's room... well, what it was? I didn't get it. Also; Any guesses on what was behind door 11? I think it was implied that it was The Doctor himself which is what they've been basically hinting at all over series 5 and 6.

And was it just me or did Rory actually have a door but the hotel was trying to trick him into going into it by making it look like an escape? Frankly, since they billed Rory as being the one person the monster couldn't really get, I'm all the more interested in what would have been in his room.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Rory talks in the past tense because he's already dead and is a ghost. TWIST.

[Archbio]

So if the rooms were about what you're afraid of, then why was Amy's room... well, what it was? I didn't get it.

Either way, it's about being abandonned, but I didn't see any stars in the sky... so it might have been an image from the timeline where Earth was the only world in the universe and Amy was basically alone in her creepy, creepy house.

I was confused at the end by them showing the Do Not Disturb sign falling to the floor. Was room 11 adjacent to Amy's?

And was it just me or did Rory actually have a door but the hotel was trying to trick him into going into it by making it look like an escape?

Why would it do that? Scaring Rory wouldn't have served any purpose for the hotel, as I understand it.

[synkr0nized]

It didn't have to be fear.

Also the Doctor moved a little down the hall to the dying minotaur creature, and eleven is hardly far from seven if even numbers and odd numbers are on opposite sides of the hallway.

The Do Not Disturb sign falls to the floor, but it's not seen in any of the subsequent shots, though we do get a decent view of the floor since then. I am going to say, for now, it may be safe to assume it, too, disappeared -- just not until the audience got a good look at it again. I am really enjoying speculating about what was in his room. He seemed unsurprised, though he did want to make sure no one went in there. Guesses overheard: it's the Master, it's a room full of dead/"unsaved" companions, it's something akin to the Dream Lord that was in fact from himself.


Rory doesn't have undying faith in the Doctor, and the latter confirmed that neither he nor Amy is religious/spiritual. So, serving no use to the facility, he was given chances to just peace out. Luckily he didn't take any. Amy's fear and faith [in the Doctor] are so tied together that her room fit both hypothesis about the rooms. I wonder whose room was the Weeping Angels one. I was really hoping for the whole "the image of an Angel is an Angel" to come to play, but nothing about that room was real so it wasn't to be.

Interesting that they are not with him now. I knew that would happen, but I had not expected it already. Though with astronaut-death lurking around the corner and the like they certainly could be in any future episodes so far.


I was amused at the [ahem] slight red herring of the Doctor requesting that Amy saved a fish from that one room.

[Archbio]

It didn't have to be fear.

Is that stated in the episode? Because I'm left with the impression that all of the examples we've been given before that point are of fear.

I know the Doctor says that he misinterpreted the basic nature of the minotaur, but I'm not sure he says anything about the content of the rooms being something else than fears.

Also the Doctor moved a little down the hall to the dying minotaur creature, and eleven is hardly far from seven if even numbers and odd numbers are on opposite sides of the hallway.

I'm not sure that the fact that the room numbers in an endless shifting hotel maze would be rationally ordered is a given, but I hadn't even noticed the other one was 7.

The Do Not Disturb sign falls to the floor, but it's not seen in any of the subsequent shots, though we do get a decent view of the floor since then. I am going to say, for now, it may be safe to assume it, too, disappeared -- just not until the audience got a good look at it again.

Yes, I gathered all of that. I was wondering why they wanted us to have a look at it. Especially since I didn't remember its actual position right after watching it, and I had a fleeting doubt about which room he had actually been in.

I guess it's probably just a "we will be revisiting this later" kind of deal.

[synkr0nized]

There's a line or two wherein the Doctor explains that the reason most of the time it's something to evoke fear is due to fear being an excellent catalyst for people to turn to their faith(s). That faith is then mutated to serve the facility's needs. He then realizes that they were pulled there thanks to Amy's undying faith on himself. I took that to mean that her room could be interpreted equally as a place to evoke a strong memory and recollection of how that faith was rewarded as well as a potential highpoint of fear.

You're definitely right, though -- we were really only shown rooms that contained aspects of fear for their intended victims.


Fair point about the hotel shifting, etc. I would need to re-watch to be sure, but I had thought the Doctor's room 11 and Amy's 7 (the door number was shown at least twice for hers; you must have missed it?) were shown to be close before. This doesn't refute that fact, but maybe they had no reason to be shifted around. Also the chamber it was all generated in wasn't all that big, kind of like a Star Trek holodek, so maybe when it all despawned that's just the way it had to be.


I only noted the door sign thing 'cause I was in the thread. Wasn't really arguing or countering any previous post. More just dumping some thoughts about the episode as I browsed the forum.


Also at first I was like, "ha, room 11 for the eleventh Doctor" before noting that it was also the eleventh episode of this season. Cute.



Also wik: That guy from the planet that gets invaded all the time and his bit made for a strong reference, at least to me, to Douglas Adams and Hitchhiker-style humor.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Also Room 7 for Amy- she was 7 when the Doctor first visited her.
The lingering shot of the do not disturb defineatly seems like it means something.
As for whats in the room- it was totally the real doctor and original rory- reminding Doctor that he is a ganger and Rory is dead and a ghost.
The other question is who does the doctor pray to? The obvious answer would be his companions who keep him grounded. They defo coming back to this.

[BloodyMage]

The other question is who does the doctor pray to?

Perhaps the time vortex itself and /or the Untempered Schism, since the latter is meant to have given Time Lords the ability to regenerate and evolve as they have.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Doctor don't roll with that shit.

[rpgdemon]

And one of Amy, Rory, Doctor is supposed to die this season and if you ditch two of those it pretty obvious who it will be.

That's not common knowledge and you really ought to spoiler tag that shit, not to bring that discussion back.

[BloodyMage]

Unless he means the obvious death from the first episode of the season.

[rpgdemon]

Unless he means the obvious death from the first episode of the season.

Well, that's what I'm wondering, since we were told Pre-Season that in the first episode someone would die, but Smarty seems to be implying that it's about to happen.

[BitVyper]

The other question is who does the doctor pray to?

Number seven was able to repel vampires through sheer force of his faith, but I can't remember if they ever elaborated on what he had faith in. Speaking of that serial (The Curse of Fenric), I found number eleven breaking Amy's faith in him to be a much weaker scene than when number seven did the same thing with Ace. I don't really believe that Amy would have stopped believing him because of what he said there. With Ace he went at it sideways, turning his entire intellect to breaking down her character, explaining how every single thing about her sucked, and that he'd manipulated her from day one, the only reason he'd ever picked up such a screw up girl in the first place was to use as a weapon against Fenric. And Ace held on to her faith until the very end. Also the aftermath of that bit of nastiness with number seven was handled better, I think.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I thought the Grand Moff had said someone will die in this season but it appears quote was about the season opener. I wasn't counting the opener as the series one though because he said the character really dies, no takebacks, and that one is not going to stand- that's not the end of the doctor. But I guess that is the one they were referring to- lame.

[Fifthfiend]

Pakistani doctor lady, you're with Mel and Old Amy in superior companion heaven.

The other question is who does the doctor pray to?

Himself

Number seven was able to repel vampires through sheer force of his faith, but I can't remember if they ever elaborated on what he had faith in.

Also himself

[Nique]

As for whats in the room- it was totally the real doctor and original rory- reminding Doctor that he is a ganger and Rory is dead and a ghost.

I kind of like this idea but... At what point after the ganger episodes would the Doctor have switched places with his ganger and when did Rory supposedly die?

[Fifthfiend]

when did Rory supposedly die?

when he got unexisted, then the cybermen created a plastic duplicate of him which also got unexisted, then amy brought back reality and kludged them both into combo-rory

[Nique]

Why does Who sound like an Anime when you talk about it?

[Kim]

Possible spoilers-ish fan prediction stuff I've encountered.

Doctor dies in the first ep at 5:02. Has everyone meet him at 4:30. In Let's Kill Hitler he's told he has thirty-two minutes to live.

Also, not a spoiler but interesting: Doctor dies on 22/04/2011. In the Silence in the Library ep or whatevs, there are 4022 saved.

EDIT: WAT

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrxwwrr6G71qfdneyo2_500.jpg

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrxwwrr6G71qfdneyo3_250.jpg

WAT WAT WAT

[stefan]

what is this I don't even.

[Fifthfiend]

EXPLANATIONS, MOTHERFUCKER

...I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE

[Kim]

EXPLANATIONS, MOTHERFUCKER

...I KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE

OH SNAP

I guess this is promo stuff for what I assume is the season finale, which is called, "The Wedding of River Song."

[BloodyMage]

Seems to be a teaser on who is the Woman with the eye patch.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Pliskin Doctor?

[Nique]

I'm guessing the eye-patch means 'HERE A GANGER THERE A GANGER EVERYONES A GANGER GANGER'

But man I don't care how cheesy it is that shot with the Stetson-wearing (i.e. dead possibly ganger) Doctor is pretty awesome.

[Seil]

People! It's 'doppleganger!' It's a few more letters! 'Ganger' is not a word! What did you people learn in school?!

[Kim]

Shush you.

[Archbio]

If it was Seil's ganger, you could say "Slush you" instead.

[Kim]

This episode is delightful on so many levels.

[Fifthfiend]

People! It's 'doppleganger!' It's a few more letters! 'Ganger' is not a word! What did you people learn in school?!

If dopplegangers were ever a real thing that you had to describe regularly in conversation there is literally nobody who wouldn't call them gangers.

Or maybe uh, doppers.

FUCK that is totally what they should be called.

[Nique]

doppers is TOO British sounding, which is to say that it is exactly what they should have been called in Doctor Who

[Archbio]

That episode was... light on content.

At least I'm pretty sure we know what the eyepatch is for, now. To be able to look at the Silence!

[Arcanum]

My crazy theory on the eye-patch based on absolutely nothing: It has a picture of the silence on the inside. That's it. Nothing fancy or technological. Just a regular picture.

[Archbio]

So that she never forgets that The Silence exists?

[Kim]

That... actually makes a lot of sense.

[Arcanum]

Ok so it's not based on nothing but I have a feeling it's not going to be as simple as that, which is why I'm hoping that it will be that simple.

In regards to the recent episode though: I'm more convinced now that the Doctor is actually going to die, which means that some way some how the Doctor is not going to die.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm so confused by the Silence plan. Why did you need to groom river song to shoot the Doctor, why couldn'tanyone do it? Why do you need a spaceman rising from the sea? How do you ensure the doctor goes to the lake and how do you make sure he gets shot when like a million other people have tried to shoot him before?
I've got a horrible feeing Moffat ust wrote all these cool sounding mysteries- impossible astronaut, evil timewoman, doctor goes tomeethis death- and justwon't explain anything..
So far their plan to kill the doctor is about as complicated as one I could pull off. Like it seems the way to kill the Doctor is to wait until he's fated to die then just shoot him- he'll go where you want him and won't fight back. Tots lamo.


E:Alll will be forgiven if the utimate question turns out to be "Doctor Who?"

[Nique]

i have updated my timeline (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1152232&postcount=83) for what its worth

EDIT The shorted version goes like this:

5100s: River song is born and gets timeported to the 20th/ 21st century for murder and shenanigans.

5100s + 4 real time years: River returns from failed murder to earn a doctorate. is later timeported again for murder.

5000s: River is arrested for past/future murder and imprisoned. Many sdrawkcab emit shenanigans follow.

4900s: River not in prison anymore, is also a professor.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Hahaha, gotta stick by my promise re the question I guess- all is forgiven.

But that was... straightforward. Time is pretty easy to trick it seems. Whole thing was very "it's a wonderful life"

Here's hoping next season he's ike a secret agent.

One question still not answered= why did the tardis explode?

[Kim]

dfjksdljfdls that ending
also blugh blugh stupid stupid wedding

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Disappointed in the finale. I was really hoping the little twist at the end was going to be that there was a plan to meet up with 10 in that alternate universe and find a way to resurrect the Doctor. It was still good but just a little too much trickery for my tastes.

[Kim]

This is a great episode that I'll never be able to like because the show's obsession with River Song is annoying as fuck and GODDAMN FUCK THAT END TWIST

[The Sevenshot Kid]

This is a great episode that I'll never be able to like because Moffat's obsession with River Song is annoying as fuck and GODDAMN FUCK THAT END TWIST

FTFY

[Fifthfiend]

so like 15 minutes in I say to myself what's the stupidest possible question for the question to be.

45 minutes later i'm like,

yup.

[Fifthfiend]

My crazy theory on the eye-patch based on absolutely nothing: It has a picture of the silence on the inside. That's it. Nothing fancy or technological. Just a regular picture.

This would have been a thousand times better than what they went with.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

This would have been a thousand times better than what they went with.

You mean that explanation that made no sense and went against everything we learned about the Silence up till that point? How could you not like that total non-explanation?!

[The Sevenshot Kid]

E:Alll will be forgiven if the utimate question turns out to be "Doctor Who?"

YOU MOTHERFUCKER! I'LL KILL YOU! I'LL KILL YOU!

[BitVyper]

I don't want Moffat to be in charge of the series anymore. Can we just go back to Davies? At least then the worst things were like, deus ex machina season finales, and occasionally overusing classic villains.

Edit: And this was a complete shit episode. You can't start with like, the most awesome idea (TIME KOMPRESSION!), and then just completely ignore it for the entire episode. That's fucking Tite Kubo levels of bullshit.

Like, it's objectively bad writing. They spend the entire episode TELLING us about all these awesome setting details, but they barely show any of it. That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to do.

[stefan]

I'm sorry but what the fuck are you all on about.

moffat at his worst is never as cringe-inducingly, embarrassingly bad as Davies could get. I fucking remember watching some of the shit Davies was signing off on and groaning in embarrassment for the actors having to sell their dialogue, re: "They're born with their brains in their haaaaaaaaaaaaaands"

and seriously, no matter what kind of criticism you may have of moffat, I'll take the retarded pirates over Obese Fart Aliens.

[BitVyper]

I will happily take Davies occasionally doing some dumb shit over Moffat constantly forcing his dumb shit into the show from every possible angle. Besides; I really got no problem with fart aliens (which I think might actually have been a shout out to something Moffat wrote before current gen Who, believe it or not) or space pirates, or hand brains or whatever. Those are all kind of neat. Davies' dumb shit had nothing to do with that.

Moffat's best stuff all happened while Davies was in charge, which prevented him from making everything River Song and Her Amazing Friends.

[stefan]

Moffat's best stuff all happened while Davies was in charge, which prevented him from making everything River Song and Her Amazing Friends.

yes, because Davies was too busy making it the Rose Tyler Is Awesome And Everything The Doctor Needs show.

your criticisms about river song are nothing new, nor are they unique to her in magnitude or pervasiveness.

[Seil]

http://deadliestfictionalwarrior.wikispaces.com/file/view/page26_blog_entry18_summary_1.jpg/189006225/page26_blog_entry18_summary_1.jpg=/=http://withfriendship.com/images/i/43843/river-song-the-time.jpg

[Seil]

Rose broght us Tooth And Claw, don't ya' know. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwb5XN6aOuY&feature=related)

[Kim]

Davies brought us Donna fuckin' Noble.

He also ruined her in the end but FUCK YOU SHUT UP

The difference between Davies' dumb shit and Moffat dumb shit is that Davies' dumb shit was exclusive to the episode it took place in. Moffat dumb shit is in every Moffat episode. I mean, I like Moffat Who better than most people seem to and I agree with Bit.

[stefan]

Like, it's objectively bad writing. They spend the entire episode TELLING us about all these awesome setting details, but they barely show any of it. That's pretty much exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to do.

that might be a reasonable point if the purpose of the episode was to tell about this crazy alternate universe where shit is happening everywhere forever, but its not. the setting exists purely as a quick way to make it absolutely clear to the viewer that "shit's fucked up, yo" in the minimum amount of time. It serves the exact same purpose as the whole bit at the end of last season where there were No Stars Ever, only on a somewhat grander scale.

they could have replaced the setting with almost anything to convey the same idea, they just chose to go full throttle with it. this is like complaining about Jurassic Park not going into extreme depth on the nature of corporate espionage and having no heavy scenes explaining Nedry's motivations, when his character exists purely to fuck everything up and enable a setting where Dinosaurs eat samuel L jackson, and is really kind of disposable beyond that facet.


The difference between Davies' dumb shit and Moffat dumb shit is that Davies' dumb shit was exclusive to the episode it took place in.

we are talking about the same Rusty Davies, right? the guy who took a character who embodies every bad, regressive stereotype about the GB in LGBT and gave him his own show to be a terrible plague on writing in, right? because that's pretty much the exact opposite of things being exclusive to the episodes they happen in.

[Steel Shadow]

Eh. I liked this episode. Granted, there was a complete lack of tension, even when the silence was doing things, and once again it just gives us more questions to be answered 'next series!', but overall? Fun to watch. Had some nice Amy and Rory moments, and River I can kiinda tolerate (or pretend I can) by accepting the logic that in order to be the Doctor's girlfriend you need to be a total nutbar.

The Brigadier dying broke my heart a little. That was a good scene. I do hope they ignore it in a few series.

I suppose it does bug me that the Doctor went from quiet acceptance around to "Oh wait, I'll fool the universe instead!" in about a heartbeat the instant he thought of a way to do it, that doesn't really flow with the build up before it, but meh. Overall, I enjoyed the finale, and if it leads to a new series where the Doctor never ends up in a situation where the bad guy's about to kill him and he just goes "hey, do you guys know who I am?" and they go "Oh shit, it's the bigest badass in the universe, let's run away now" then so much the better. I get the Doctor's great and all, but if they'd turn down the fanboyism juust a bit, that'd be grand.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Re the brigadier death- that was a call out to the actor dying earlier this year
So I doubt he'll be in future series.

[BitVyper]

yes, because Davies was too busy making it the Rose Tyler Is Awesome And Everything The Doctor Needs show.

Rose was kind of shit and a Mary Sue, and Davies clearly liked her more than the character deserved. However, Davies had enough self control that the most infuriating Rose stuff was pretty well limited to specific scenes and her relationship with the Doctor. In the case of River Song, Moffat's just forcing the whole universe to revolve around her, so she bleeds bad writing everywhere.

To be honest, I think the only companion I like from this bunch is Rory.

that might be a reasonable point if the purpose of the episode was to tell about this crazy alternate universe where shit is happening everywhere forever, but its not. the setting exists purely as a quick way to make it absolutely clear to the viewer that "shit's fucked up, yo" in the minimum amount of time.

It doesn't matter what the point of the episode is. If you're going to build a world where pterodactyls are everyday pests, and cars are hoisted around by balloons you have to explore it. Otherwise you're just building expectations and wasting a good idea. This is pretty much the biggest beef I had with FFVII: They start out with a really awesome setting, and then two hours later it's hey welcome to the overworld map from every RPG ever (IN THREE DEE). Aside from a handful of shots of interesting scenery, the setting was completely wasted in this episode, and that's shit because the setting was the one thing the episode had going for it. As it is, instead of being what it could be, all that stuff with the pterodactyls, balloons, and the pyramids just becomes way overdone establishing shots. It's like if, after the first scene of Star Wars, Vader was never seen again for the rest of the movies. Such a bizarre setting should not be so immaterial to what is happening.

And you're making my argument for me, because the last season DID explore the messed up world young Amy found herself in. Pretty much entirely to the extent that it could be explored. It was a major part of the plot. Same thing with the last Christmas special and the flying fish atmosphere. You don't introduce all this stuff and use absolutely none of it.

If the rest of the episode had been strong enough to stand on its own, the setting thing would be easy to ignore, but it wasn't, and so it isn't.

[stefan]

If you're going to build a world where pterodactyls are everyday pests, and cars are hoisted around by balloons you have to explore it.

no, you really don't. you, personally, may be disappointed by not exploring it in depth, but as a plot element there is no necessity to explore it to any major degree beyond serving its purpose.

mind you, I think moffat's work has its fair share of problems. splitting the season was probably the worst choice he could have possibly made, because it took the season pacing and shot it to hell. I suppose my personal problem with your arguments is that it seems like you're ignoring the legitimate concerns with Moffat's showrunning in favor of bashing superficial elements that don't conform to your personal view of what Doctor Who is supposed to be, if that makes any sense.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

There's a big difference in how this show has treated The Doctor since coming back on the air.

With Davies he was a messiah. He came down from the sky and set things right and when it came time fore him to make the ultimate sacrifice he would go through with it no matter how reluctant he was. Nine and Ten both made tough choices that resulted in their deaths even when the fallout of not making those choices meant the death of a single person. It didn't matter to him though; a single life was worth it.

But with Moffat he's totally a superhero. He's going around having crazy adventures and romancing a mysterious, sometimes villainous, woman. He's all about going around and having fun while helping people out, much like the previous Doctors. But he's not as righteous as the others. He knows that not dying means the end of everything (much higher stakes than the other Doctor's deaths!) but he just has to find a way around it.

It's like a comic book hero faking his death or finding an easy loophole so that it appears he's paid the price when he's really skipped out on the bill. It's a major difference in the portrayal of the character that differentiates him from the past incarnations.

Granted, I still hate how the series copped out but its consistent with the portrayal.

[stefan]

Granted, I still hate how the series copped out but its consistent with the portrayal.

I keep hearing this and can't help but be mystified by the claim that the Tesselecta was a cop-out. You literally have to be retarded to think they were going to kill The Doctor off permanently, and there really aren't that many ways I can think of to resolve that situation that would have been better, and not indescribably stupid.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

I keep hearing this and can't help but be mystified by the claim that the Tesselecta was a cop-out. You literally have to be retarded to think they were going to kill The Doctor off permanently, and there really aren't that many ways I can think of to resolve that situation that would have been better, and not indescribably stupid.

When you kill the main character in the first episode and show us everything that indicates he has actually died, you can't give a bullshit excuse that it was a robot. That's total bullshit. We saw the energy coming off of him. He moved just like the Doctor even though the first portrayal of the robot duplicate showed it as being very awkward. Not to mention it wasn't introduced until late in the game after being repeatedly told that the Doctor was dead.

It's cheating. You can't write a death and take it back just like that. There have to be consequences for character deaths. They've shown with The Master that there are other ways of resurrecting a Time Lord. There. That's a seed for his return right there. But instead, they introduced a story element just to cover their asses and cover up their mistake.

Killing the Doctor was a stunt and they had to find a way to reverse it. Except they weren't willing to put actual effort into it. That's what pisses all of us off.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

They shoud have used resurrection worms.

[stefan]

first off: quit_gettin_mad_about_tv_shows.jpg

When you kill the main character in the first episode and show us everything that indicates he has actually died, you can't give a bullshit excuse that it was a robot.

if the main character of a TV show, the character for which the show is named, gets killed and every single character is totally talking about how completely impossible it is for him to come back to life, that should be your very first clue that the writers are up to some shenanigans.

It's cheating. You can't write a death and take it back just like that. There have to be consequences for character deaths.

okay I think your main problem is that you have the mistaken belief that the writers actually had a legitimate intent to permanently kill The Doctor, and then reneged on it at some point after The Impossible Astronaut was aired.

The scene was never written as a real death because it was never intended to be a real death.

They've shown with The Master that there are other ways of resurrecting a Time Lord. There. That's a seed for his return right there. But instead, they introduced a story element just to cover their asses and cover up their mistake.

again, its only a mistake if they weren't initially planning the endgame. the existence of Flesh Doctor alone is proof that they had multiple "outs" ready, as well as a bit of dialogue in Lets Kill Hitler that everyone seemed to have missed. also, the entire deal with The Master's resurrection was terrible and only existed in the first place because Davies is too shortsighted a writer to leave "outs" for popular villains, aka the Batman Movie Villain Problem.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

This show is like a comic book. I know the character is in no danger. When he dies, they're creating the illusion of danger for the audience. When the character does die then there has to be a good reason for it. And when you bring him back you need to make it seem important. You need to tell the reader/viewer that this was a very special case and the act of getting rid of him and bringing him back has meaning.

The nailed the first part but they utterly failed to stick the ending. They turned it into a gag. It'd be like if the Ultimate Peter Parker just showed up in the Ultimates with a flashback showing him trade places with a spider-clone and everyone laughing it off.

No one thought the Doctor was dead forever. But we did expect the death to have some meaning and not be a pointless macguffin. It's about treating the viewer with respect and not just fucking with them.

[Arcanum]

Just gonna say that I'm perfectly okay with the way everything went in the show. I actually find it rather funny that the fixed point in time wasn't the Doctor dying, but simply faking his death. I really don't get what everyone is getting upset about (though I only just skimmed the last couple of posts).

[Kim]

Wow this thread got awful fast.

[rpgdemon]

My only problem with it was the regeneration energy coming off of him, since that doesn't make much sense. I thought it was the ganger, personally, so it's not like they didn't have outs, and just screwed up. Or, alternately, I thought that when he was dying, 'cause River kissed him, he swapped out with a ganger, and then went to die at the lake. Like the whole, "In excruciating pain, about to die, yadda yadda" at the beginning, I thought he was talking about himself, dying of the poison.

What was the line in Let's Kill Hitler that everyone missed?

[Nique]

Yeah using the ganger as their out would have been a lot better.

Also haha they totally used time compression from Final Fantasy VIII haha.

I may have missed it but why was it necessary for River and the Doctor to marry exactly?

[The Sevenshot Kid]

I may have missed it but why was it necessary for River and the Doctor to marry exactly?

Because Moffat wants to legitimized his Rose.

[stefan]

Yeah using the ganger as their out would have been a lot better.

do explain how. especially since it would, thematically, involve dehumanizing and killing what has been established as an Unique separate individual being, completely going back on the entire theme of the Flesh episodes, whereas the Tesseract is just a robot personship that The Doctor probably hotwired to the Tardis so he could control it more realistically.

[BloodyMage]

To be fair, they did introduce the Teselecta in the exact same episode that the Doctor found out when he would die, and then specifically mentioned eliminating people close to the end of their time span. So there was a fair bit of foreshadowing that the Teselecta would be used.

My only concern really is, as rpgdemon mentioned, the regeneration energy. It really makes no sense for the android to be able to do that.

I may have missed it but why was it necessary for River and the Doctor to marry exactly?

I think, since everyone thought he was about to die, he wanted to do one last nice thing for River Song, because she just couldn't possibly live without him, and wanted to marry him rather than murder him, the Doctor compromised. They married, then she murdered him. Of course by that point she knew what was going on so it was just to perpetuate the ruse.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

do explain how. especially since it would, thematically, involve dehumanizing and killing what has been established as an Unique separate individual being, completely going back on the entire theme of the Flesh episodes, whereas the Tesseract is just a robot personship that The Doctor probably hotwired to the Tardis so he could control it more realistically.

It probably would have had more meaning if it were a ganger because audiences would get the feeling that a Doctor was making a sacrifice, regardless of him being the real Doctor or not.

[stefan]

My only concern really is, as rpgdemon mentioned, the regeneration energy. It really makes no sense for the android to be able to do that.

it makes no sense for The Ultimate Disguise Robot to be able to put on a light show? because really, that's all that its doing.

It probably would have had more meaning if it were a ganger because audiences would get the feeling that a Doctor was making a sacrifice, regardless of him being the real Doctor or not.

no, it would have felt far more like a cop-out, because after an entire episode talking about how "gangers aren't disposable automatons, they're real individuals with their own emotions and right to live," you would have essentially been saying "yeah, fuck all that, he's totally just a 1-up with no personal value."

[The Sevenshot Kid]

no, it would have felt far more like a cop-out, because after an entire episode talking about how "gangers aren't disposable automatons, they're real individuals with their own emotions and right to live," you would have essentially been saying "yeah, fuck all that, he's totally just a 1-up with no personal value."

It all depends on execution, my friend. All it would take was a short, but really emotional scene, where the ganger convinces the Doctor to let him die in his stead would have gone a long way.

I don't even have a real problem with the method of saving the Doctor they used. I just hate how it was played for laughs. It robbed the season of all emotion stemming from the Doctor's death.

[stefan]

It all depends on execution, my friend. All it would take was a short, but really emotional scene, where the ganger convinces the Doctor to let him die in his stead would have gone a long way.

no it wouldn't, because no matter how you try to play it, it would still come down to "11 is a real person, ganger!doctor is not, therefore Ganger!doctor has less of a right to live." In fact, "The Girl Who Waited" seemed to be doubly hammering this idea home, since the end dilemma of that episode was that there was no one "real" amy and one "fake" amy, and that anyone who tried to argue one way or the other has to be some kind of monster.

this was actually something of a major issue during the break in all of the discussion groups I was in, because at the time Ganger!doctor seemed like the only "out," and everyone was pretty unhappy with the implications and hypocrisy that would bring.


I don't even have a real problem with the method of saving the Doctor they used. I just hate how it was played for laughs. It robbed the season of all emotion stemming from the Doctor's death.

I heavily disagree with you on this, but I can see where you're coming from. This is particular element is more a matter of opinion than anything.

[rpgdemon]

I've watched the episode twice. How was it played for laughs?

[The Sevenshot Kid]

I've watched the episode twice. How was it played for laughs?

The whole bit where he came back into that scene with the robot duplicate saying, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Oh, one more thing!" It came off as too jokey for my tastes.

[rpgdemon]

The whole bit where he came back into that scene with the robot duplicate saying, and I'm paraphrasing here, "Oh, one more thing!" It came off as too jokey for my tastes.

He left, then came back going, "Wait, actually! Yeah! You can!"

[Professor Smarmiarty]

no, it would have felt far more like a cop-out, because after an entire episode talking about how "gangers aren't disposable automatons, they're real individuals with their own emotions and right to live," you would have essentially been saying "yeah, fuck all that, he's totally just a 1-up with no personal value."

no it wouldn't, because no matter how you try to play it, it would still come down to "11 is a real person, ganger!doctor is not, therefore Ganger!doctor has less of a right to live." In fact, "The Girl Who Waited" seemed to be doubly hammering this idea home, since the end dilemma of that episode was that there was no one "real" amy and one "fake" amy, and that anyone who tried to argue one way or the other has to be some kind of monster.

this was actually something of a major issue during the break in all of the discussion groups I was in, because at the time Ganger!doctor seemed like the only "out," and everyone was pretty unhappy with the implications and hypocrisy that would bring.



I heavily disagree with you on this, but I can see where you're coming from. This is particular element is more a matter of opinion than anything.

Unless it's an amy ganger.
Cause Doctor has exploded a ganger before. He like "Fuck you abomination" and then pointed his screwdriver at her and she went kablooie!

[Steel Shadow]

Technically he just severed the link between Amy and the Ganger. The thing went kablooie all on it's own.

Also, coming back with "Actually!" was more 'entirely in character for eleven' then 'played for laughs'.

Pacing was a problem for the entire latter half of the series, and thus they tried to fit the entire wrap up into one episode, hence the lack of time spent on the strange world they made for it, and all the other interesting little side things that could have gone into the script, but didn't. Would have been nice for them to go into more things, but they didn't have time, so... Meh.

It is all in the execution. However, saying 'it was actually a Ganger!' would have been many levels worse an execution than what they did go for.

And much as the Brigadier's actor's death pains me, I still want him to be around, damnit! Let a fan grieve. :crying:

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I didn't kill him copper. I just locked him in a room with no food or water. He died of natural causes!

[Arcanum]

Am I missing something? Who is this Brigadier fellow?

[Kim]

From the original series. He and the Doctor were bros4life.

[Nique]

do explain how. especially since it would, thematically, involve dehumanizing and killing what has been established as an Unique separate individual being, completely going back on the entire theme of the Flesh episodes, whereas the Tesseract is just a robot personship that The Doctor probably hotwired to the Tardis so he could control it more realistically.

...

no, it would have felt far more like a cop-out, because after an entire episode talking about how "gangers aren't disposable automatons, they're real individuals with their own emotions and right to live," you would have essentially been saying "yeah, fuck all that, he's totally just a 1-up with no personal value."

no it wouldn't, because no matter how you try to play it, it would still come down to "11 is a real person, ganger!doctor is not, therefore Ganger!doctor has less of a right to live." In fact, "The Girl Who Waited" seemed to be doubly hammering this idea home, since the end dilemma of that episode was that there was no one "real" amy and one "fake" amy, and that anyone who tried to argue one way or the other has to be some kind of monster.

this was actually something of a major issue during the break in all of the discussion groups I was in, because at the time Ganger!doctor seemed like the only "out," and everyone was pretty unhappy with the implications and hypocrisy that would bring.


Ok so just the fact of the idea of the ganger being the one who died in the series opener, would, by itself, introduce a set of unfortunate implications (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnfortunateImplications) about a fictional race of cloned people? And all the other examples of dopplegangers (Ganger Amy, Old Amy, Plastic Rory) don't already do this?

I think that the reason using the ganger rather than a not-alive robot Doctor (not as in like, tricking the ganger or whatever but just the writers using the ganger as the Doctor who died at all, however it were to happen) makes the gangers more real and the 'death' (which now isn't a death or any kind of sacrifice at all) more meaningful.

But fine if you like it could be even better in this increasingly redundant and hypothetical plot twist if it wasn't the ganger Doctor who died but the original Doctor and that it was the ganger Doctor who we had been following since... Let's say Demon's Run or shortly thereafter. Or even better than that, that it is ambiguous as to which Doctor died which would actually quell your concerns about how gangers are portrayed ; It would basically mean that it didn't matter which Doctor survived since they were both the Doctor.

So, yeah, using the ganger to solve the problem of the Doctor's death is just a (highly subjective but still basically pretty good) better idea.

EDIT: Because they didn't use this sort of idea or any of the other good and clever sounding ideas they could have to resolve this series' puzzle, the last 6 episodes or so felt extremely unplanned. Like, the pretty obvious reveal of River's identity was way more satisfying than this becuase it tied up loose elements in a way that at least kind of made sense. That's just me of course, I know not everyone enjoyed 'Demons Run' all that much, but I think it at least made more sense in terms of what had come before it than 'The Wedding of River Song' did.

EDIT II: Also I don't even care Time Compression world totally rules haha. Ok if they had been bothered to explain how this kind of a world was functioning at all it might have been a little more palatable but the entire episode has basically gone to pot by the time I could be bothered to think about it so pterodactyl vermin chasing children was pretty much a high point.

[Archbio]

Word, Madam Kovarian.

Word.

[Nique]

Word, Madam Kovarian.

WAT IS THIS?

[Archbio]

"Oh, the flirting. Do I have to watch this?"

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Man time compression world should have got like every incarnation of the Doctor together to come up with a super plan. Sure some of them are dead but like we have computers. Computers could do that.

[Nique]

Sure some of them are dead but like we have computers. Computers could do that.

A quick sort of blurry special effect with the Doctor transitioning between different incarnations and then just like talking to/amongst himself might have been the way to go for involving past Doctors. They already did the same sort of thing with his voices/ memories in the ganger episodes.

I hope they do something like this eventually because past versions of Doctors hanging out with/ making out with each other is exactly the kind of fan service that Doctor Who fans are looking for.

[stefan]

I hope they do something like this eventually because past versions of Doctors hanging out with/ making out with each other is exactly the kind of fan service that Doctor Who fans are looking for.

well, its not as if there's no precedent for different versions of the Doctors hanging out together. I imagine the big surprise for the 50th anniversary special is going to be a "The X Doctors" episode.

[Nique]

well, its not as if there's no precedent for different versions of the Doctors hanging out together.

They have been making a big deal out of the Doctor saying he shouldn't cross his own time stream... I'm pretty sure Eccelston, Tennant and Matt Smith have all recited the (essentially) same line. I don't know if that means anything at all or if that was the same way with the previous series, but either way yes clearly at least those three actors need to be the Doctor in the same program at the same time becuase it would be awesome.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Just do it like int he five doctors where they didn't have a choice about it- they were sucked from the time stream and then all ended up in the dead zone.

[Nique]

of course, the dead zone!

It's all so obvious now.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If I remember correctly they turned off the dead zone in Gallifrey but then some dastardly fellow turned it back on.

[Nique]

Speaking of Gallifrey- Just a point of curiosity from Davies era ... Was that last special when the Time War was actually time locked or did the Eccelston Doctor do that and we just never saw it on screen? Did the 96' series touch on the Time War at all or was that always a product of the new program?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The time war was a product of the new series. It not mentioned anywhere prior. And it was timelocked at the start of that series- eccleston did it offscreen at some point.

[BitVyper]

They have been making a big deal out of the Doctor saying he shouldn't cross his own time stream... I'm pretty sure Eccelston, Tennant and Matt Smith have all recited the (essentially) same line. I don't know if that means anything at all or if that was the same way with the previous series, but either way yes clearly at least those three actors need to be the Doctor in the same program at the same time becuase it would be awesome.

They would mention it occasionally in the old series, usually right in the middle of a crossover with multiple Doctors doing shit together.

[Fifthfiend]

It's just some shit time lords make up when they don't wanna do something, like deliver their own invitations.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Or when companions want to have threesomes with 2 of the doctors.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Or when companions want to have threesomes with 2 of the doctors.

Or when The Doctor wants to have threesomes with two of The Doctors.

[Fifthfiend]

yes, because Davies was too busy making it the Rose Tyler Is Awesome And Everything The Doctor Needs show.

Times the Doctor actually, literally married Rose Tyler: 0

EDIT: Times Rose Tyler turned out to actually have been born in the Tardis making her a timehumanlord with magic and everyfing: also 0.

EDIT: I swear to God I liked River Song, then she said sweetie for the ten trillionth overbearingly smug time and augh.

[Fifthfiend]

Or when companions want to have threesomes with 2 of the doctors.

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9923/20110730doctorwhoagives.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/20110730doctorwhoagives.png/)

[rpgdemon]

EDIT: Times Rose Tyler turned out to actually have been born in the Tardis making her a timehumanlord with magic and everyfing: also 0.

Times River Song took in the core of the Tardis and pretty much became a god, destroying the crap out of everything and making some dude immortal: Also 0.

I don't dislike Rose, I don't dislike River. It's silly to say that River is ridiculous in what she does, when you take into account Rose's ridiculousness. That, the whole breaking into different universes, and even aborted timelines in a different universe (Never really explained), by taking apart the Tardis and building something out of it.

[Kim]

One thing that kind bugs me is I feel like the whole relationship between River and the Doctor is kinda squicky since he's like 300 times her age.

[BitVyper]

Times River Song took in the core of the Tardis and pretty much became a god, destroying the crap out of everything and making some dude immortal: Also 0.

Yeah, which is a shame because having a foreshadowed event that was built on previously established character traits and created other interesting plot avenues would be vastly superior to just deciding that by the way, River Song is also magical sweeeeetie. That Rose remained flawed and human in spite of channeling the time vortex was a whole thing. If River Song did that at this point, I'm pretty sure she'd just become a magical fairy goddess forever.

The Time Vortex God thing isn't even much of a deus ex machina except in the literal god-from-the-machine sense, since that's exactly what happened (this is tangental, but I want to mention it). It didn't come out of nowhere (it was absolutely foreshadowed both by showing us the Heart of the TARDIS, and how stupid Rose was willing to be regarding temporal consequences for people earlier in the season), and it only resolved matters only in the sense of removing the immediate threats, but left all kinds of issues hanging. It took an episode to accomplish, and the immediate consequences lasted for another episode, which is quite a bit of time when a season is only thirteen episodes long.

The shit things about Rose Tyler were when everyone just talked about how great Rose Tyler was, and when they just way overdid the Doctor's (and occasionally other peoples') feelings with regard to her. Also they had a tendency to force her into plots in awkward ways, making her really important in places she didn't really belong. River Song gets all of this turned up to eleven, and it's made constant instead of something that just crops up here and there.