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View Full Version : "Ayn Rand" or "What Is Communism?"


Seil
09-01-2011, 07:52 PM
This started out as a means to ask about the books of Ayn Rand, but forked from there, it's in the wrong subforum. Request a move, please?

So I've been trying to read a bit more. Get an idea(.) of human nature and stuff like that what with psychology and philosophy books. Since my brain is not wrinkley enough, I want to broaden my horizons and read something new. I've been hearing a lot about this Ayn Rand chick, is she any good?

Apart from the naivety of that question, all I've got to go on is the idea (idea, here - based on here-say) that she was a bit like Andrew Ryan, what from Bioshock. I've also been playing a lot of Bioshock II recently - y'know, thje one with the crazy chick who turned the insane residents of the 1960's underwater ruin and made them into a "family," ready to work for the "people?" For the "greater good?" And because that's how ideas go in my mind (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1073980&postcount=20), I'm left with all of that rolling around together, wanting to know more about all of it.

I do understand that it's a pretty broad topic, that there's a lot of history there - the Soviet Union, China, Cuba... The propoganda slurs that North America perpetuated against the (un?)governmental system, the stark portrayals of every day life in a communist "dictatorship..."

I do think that Rapture (Bioshock games again, here.) is a brilliant representation on a secluded city with fluctuating government (that you couldn't get with something like Fallout's Vault life), and I wanna talk a little about that looking at it from a social experiment view. I wanna learn more about the philosophies of Ayn Rand, and disagree with them because I hear that I won't like her. I wanna hear a bit about communism and why it was so reviled, and how it continues to work for both the people and the government.

Can anyone help me out?

Fifthfiend
09-01-2011, 07:56 PM
Ayn Rand is the proponent of the philosophy Objectivism, the major tenets of which are that Ayn Rand* should be as much of a selfish asshole as she wants and everybody else should love and admire her for it.


*Also any guy Ayn Rand particularly wants to fuck.

The Sevenshot Kid
09-01-2011, 07:57 PM
Ayn Rand in a nutshell: I'm out to get my own and fuck all of you that can't cause I'm not gonna help.

Edit: Goddamnit, Fifth.

Fifthfiend
09-01-2011, 08:05 PM
You'll have to be faster than that if you want to beat my Rand-hate draw, Kid.

Azisien
09-01-2011, 08:17 PM
Smarty gives pretty awesome communist rants sometimes, or he used to. Then he gave up the drink. Shit sucks now.

Seil
09-01-2011, 08:21 PM
So if she's Andrew Ryan, who's Fontaine/Atlas?

Aerozord
09-01-2011, 08:28 PM
He's the guy that proves the giant glaring flaw in objectivism. Its not inherently without merit. The idea of being self made, everyone pulling their weight and only their weight. But with no checks or balances all it takes is one dick with a competitive edge to screw over everyone.

Magus
09-01-2011, 09:55 PM
There are glaring flaws with multiple characters. Take John Galt for instance, who continually talks about "the sweat of [his] brow" and how he was successful with help from nobody and so he shouldn't be stifled by the demands of society. I'm going to assume that means he was a homeless orphan who lived in an anarchic run-down slum with no law enforcement, housing codes, or public transportation, who was undoubtedly illiterate since he never went to any kind of school...

That being said, a lot of people seem to co-opt Atlas Shrugged with minor alterations to suit themselves. The villain is a giant corporate conglomerate fat cat who pays off politicians to help destroy his competitors and who also receives government subsidies. Sounds like a lot of conservatives who probably list Atlas Shrugged as like, their number one book, or at the least number two (if they are religious).

Fifthfiend
09-01-2011, 10:34 PM
I'm going to assume that means he was a homeless orphan who lived in an anarchic run-down slum with no law enforcement, housing codes, or public transportation, who was undoubtedly illiterate since he never went to any kind of school...

Strangely we never see John Galt as a child at all, nor any other character as a child, nor any children, nor anybody who is old or otherwise infirm, in any of Ayn Rand's books.

That being said, a lot of people seem to co-opt Atlas Shrugged with minor alterations to suit themselves. The villain is a giant corporate conglomerate fat cat who pays off politicians to help destroy his competitors and who also receives government subsidies. Sounds like a lot of conservatives who probably list Atlas Shrugged as like, their number one book, or at the least number two (if they are religious).

This is also perfectly in keeping with the tenets of Objectivism.

BitVyper
09-02-2011, 12:11 AM
Strangely we never see John Galt as a child at all, nor any other character as a child, nor any children, nor anybody who is old or otherwise infirm, in any of Ayn Rand's books.

Objectivism has a level 3 power that causes your children to be born fully formed, with ageless bodies. Didn't you pay attention in Social Studies?

Fifthfiend
09-02-2011, 12:15 AM
Objectivism has a level 3 power that causes your children to be born fully formed, with ageless bodies. Didn't you pay attention in Social Studies?

I always suspected Exalted of being secretly Objectivist.

Seil
09-02-2011, 12:23 AM
I could make so many jokes about 'Rand' and 'being randy, baby,' but I am physically incapable of thinking about sex while looking at a picture of Ayn Rand.

Mr.Bookworm
09-02-2011, 12:26 AM
http://img.slate.com/media/1/123125/122946/2207169/2233141/091102_BOOKS_aynRand2TN.jpg

Seil
09-02-2011, 12:39 AM
I don't think this is helping me to understand communism at all!

Krylo
09-02-2011, 12:41 AM
I always suspected Exalted of being secretly Objectivist.

Nah, if it was Exalted, it'd be an Essence 3 Charm.

Jagos
09-02-2011, 01:36 AM
Didn't someone also argue how the Protomen CD was about Objectivism as well?

Arhra
09-02-2011, 03:01 AM
I don't think this is helping me to understand communism at all!

I AM COMMUNISM

Satan's Onion
09-02-2011, 03:09 AM
Ayn Rand is the proponent of the philosophy Objectivism, the major tenets of which are that Ayn Rand* should be as much of a selfish asshole as she wants and everybody else should love and admire her for it.


*Also any guy Ayn Rand particularly wants to fuck be raped by because Ayn Rand's personal fantasies are Every Woman's Ideal--and if rape fantasies aren't your thing, then clearly you are a namby-pamby collectivist and your twisted, non-raping psyche is both a reflection and cause of all of society's deepest problems.

Fixed to better reflect what I know of Rand's ballsed-up notions of what is good and right and proper.

I mean I'm not about to get on anybody for a rape fantasy in itself, because what matters most is whether the parties involved are of age and consenting, even if they're consenting to pretend not to consent, as it were. The thing is that she seems to have had some serious problems with "your thing is not my thing and that's okay". If I recall correctly, she even insisted once that all true Objectivists smoked cigarettes because something something Prometheus blah blah spark of man's whatever. She couldn't just up and say "hey, I likes me some coffin nails, y'all"--oh hell no. She had to turn smoking versus non-smoking into a point of fucking ideology.

Also, god dammit Bookworm some of us wanted to maybe enjoy sex at some point within the next decade :mad: .

Aerozord
09-02-2011, 03:27 AM
Just tossing this out here, even ignoring the ethical issues of the philosophy, like all social structures it is flawed because it only works if everyone is on the same page. Bioshock represents this rather well. Rapture wasn't originally a hellhole, or atleast not the kind we see in the game. Yea it allowed things to go down hill, but in early stages it was an ok place to live.

But there is a reason it falls apart, the reason our system came up in the first place. Because you might be the strongest smartest most talented guy on the planet, but you'd still lose to a small group of people. Rapture quickly went down hill because one guy got a few bodies together and ran roughshod over the entire operation. Then of course those that didn't like that started banning together themselves, thing became factionalized.

Objectivism really runs contrary to human nature. We want to form groups and work together. Hell just go to a high school and you can see that

Professor Smarmiarty
09-02-2011, 04:02 AM
Communism is what happens in the mirror universe.

Magus
09-02-2011, 07:47 PM
Didn't someone also argue how the Protomen CD was about Objectivism as well?

It has Objectivist themes, yeah. Let me find the thread.

Here it is: http://nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=38644. I reposted something from the Protomen forums where we discussed it as well.