"Strong Female Characters" or "Sexy Girls Kicking Butt In Tight Clothes"

[Seil]

So recently, The Black Keys released a fake trailer for their song Howlin' For You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLSpj7q6_mM&ob=av2n), featuring Tricia Helfer as a sexy assassin looking for her fathers killer.

Also very recently, a movie called Hanna (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugireeCoYyU) was released, the main plot being that a young blonde is looking for people hunting her father.

Columbiana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_0R5mvrZ28) is yet to be released, but scores points out the gate for having... a young, sexy woman out to get revenge on the people who killed her parents.

Does it strike anyone as odd that the strong female protagonists of these movies, the ones who kick ass and take names are, y'know, young and sexy women in tight or skimpy outfits who have sex with some dude during the course of the film? The biggest flick I can remember in the last decade about this sorta thing was Kill Bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-czwy-aVbbU), where a strong female protagonist was out to kill the people who wronged her and "killed" her daughter. You could maybe count Eowyn in the Lord Of The Rings movies, but hey, that wasn't her movie, and she has one scene where Pippin does some of the grunt work. Or hey, Tomb Raider (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWxh1R8JIro), where Angelina Jolie has a dead father who's already dead, but gives her motivation and drive to... have sex with a sexy Scottish (?) criminal. Is... is that ironic?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

This has been a thing for about as long as I can remember. It's more or less a sex sells thing that hollywood has going on. Sexy badass women kicking all kinds of asses= money, lots of money to them... usually.

I'd talk more but something tells me that this is a thread I shouldn't be too involved in. I can be a bit biased when it comes to this kind of subject.

[Jagos]

Ironically enough, I just finished watching Salt...

[Aerozord]

soon as I saw the title I began thinking of the many possible anime this could be describing

Does it strike anyone as odd that the strong female protagonists of these movies, the ones who kick ass and take names are, y'know, young and sexy women in tight or skimpy outfits who have sex with some dude during the course of the film?

no more odd then the flood of movies in 80's and early 90's of buff grizzled guys that kick ass and usually have sex for no reason but to have it.

Heck lets even drop the "kicking ass" part. How often do you see a movie with an un-attractive protagonist, or even antagonist, heck even just second string characters.

I can rattle some off sure, but thats majority of actors in any type of movie

[RickZarber]

I don't feel that Hanna applies for the sex appeal aspect of the trend. That movie was quite tame and innocent in that regard.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Batwoman is the hottest character in comics. If you say different, you are wrong.

[Azisien]

I don't feel that Hanna applies for the sex appeal aspect of the trend. That movie was quite tame and innocent in that regard.

Yeah, and while innocent or tame never applies when I think of the movie Kick-Ass, a major draw and edge factor for that movie was Hit Girl, which is pretty far from sex appeal except for a very specific crowd of people not invited to this thread.

I personally think it goes beyond raw sex appeal, though sex appeal always has an effect. Believe it or not, females can be strong too, and not just in the "heartwarming mother/sister/lawyer fighting tyranny/injustice/whatever. They can actually kick ass, Rambo style. I mean shit, the fight scenes that Saoirse Ronan choreographs for Hanna are better than most testosterone fueled adventures.

[Ecks]

One of the reasons I liked Tex from Red vs. Blue so much.

She didn't need to be missing half her armor for her to outtestosterone most of the male cast.

Same goes for Kat from Halo: Reach.

[The SSB Intern]

Does it strike anyone as odd that the strong female protagonists of these movies, the ones who kick ass and take names are, y'know, young and sexy women in tight or skimpy outfits who have sex with some dude during the course of the film?

To be honest, you could replace "skimpy outfits" with, I dunno, leather jackets, and "dude" with chick(s) and you'd be describing most male action movie stars.

[Magus]

Since you referenced it in your title but didn't bother linking it...

http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311


Does it strike anyone as odd that the strong female protagonists of these movies, the ones who kick ass and take names are, y'know, young and sexy women in tight or skimpy outfits who have sex with some dude during the course of the film? The biggest flick I can remember in the last decade about this sorta thing was Kill Bill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-czwy-aVbbU), where a strong female protagonist was out to kill the people who wronged her and "killed" her daughter. You could maybe count Eowyn in the Lord Of The Rings movies, but hey, that wasn't her movie, and she has one scene where Pippin does some of the grunt work. Or hey, Tomb Raider (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWxh1R8JIro), where Angelina Jolie has a dead father who's already dead, but gives her motivation and drive to... have sex with a sexy Scottish (?) criminal. Is... is that ironic?

Well despite the criticisms of its first season, I think we can all look forward to the second season of Game of Thrones and its introduction of Brienne of Tarth, known for her unattractiveness.

[Jagos]

Although the giantess they got for her is pretty damn hot.

[Magus]

Although the giantess they got for her is pretty damn hot.

True. Apparently, truly unattractive people do not even bother to get into acting in the first place, unless they're going to be a character actor, like "guy who plays angry fat police chief" or "woman who plays old witch crone".

[Aerozord]

True. Apparently, truly unattractive people do not even bother to get into acting in the first place

well they probably try, then learn that except specific roles you named there is no work. Even then they usually uglify a more attractive actor now

[Premmy]

To be honest, you could replace "skimpy outfits" with, I dunno, leather jackets, and "dude" with chick(s) and you'd be describing most male action movie stars.

There's a bit of a difference between
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kqmyrqRBAw1qzexpio1_500.jpg
http://www.thesmokingjacket.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/AnneHathawayCatwoman1.jpg

[Krylo]

Well not a lot of difference.

Just one difference, really.

It just happens to be a big one.

Which is that the male heroes aren't stereotyped or idealized for their sexual appeal, but rather for their masculinity. Female... well, anythings, honestly, are idealized based on physical attractiveness/physical appeal, as opposed to their other feminine qualities.

Of course, that leads to some sub-differences as well, in that a character who is idealized in their masculinity would be less sexist than one who is idealized in their femininity in that society, as a whole, applauds masculinity and raises it up as a driving force, while deriding femininity to the same degree.

That is to say an ultra-masculine character is portrayed as tough and cool and awesome to the max, while an ultra-feminine character is often portrayed as weak and/or a damsel in distress, despite the fact that there are just as intriguing and interesting aspects of, even traditional, femininity to draw upon, even for an action girl, such as themes of motherhood or resilience.

[Premmy]

Well not a lot of difference.

Just one difference, really.

It just happens to be a big one.

One is "a bit"

[Krylo]

For some reason I read that as big.

MY MISTAKE.

Anyway, it was mostly an excuse to type all that other shit/spell out your point.

[Premmy]

So you wrote all that to say,"not a big difference, just a big difference"?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

There's a bit of a difference between
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kqmyrqRBAw1qzexpio1_500.jpg
http://www.thesmokingjacket.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/AnneHathawayCatwoman1.jpg

There is really no difference when you look at it from what a women finds attractive.

Both of those characters are sexy to the opposite gender and even the same gender.

[Krylo]

Except Arnold isn't showing off his assets. He's fully covered. While Anne Hathaway has her tits hanging halfway out.

Would we still find Anne attractive if she zipped up and wore a coat and some pants that aren't skintight? Yes. Would it be as pandering? No.

This would be closer to the male equivalent:

http://i54.tinypic.com/1zx2v7t.jpg

Except with tighter pants.

Edit: And when action guys do get their clothes ripped off they don't have faces as pretty as him, and they tend to do so in a getting all bloody kinda way that's really not very sexually attractive (unless you have a fetish for that kind of thing, I guess), while women are shown half naked all the time while perfectly clean and ready for a night out, lack of clothing aside.

Edit 2: Arnie isn't actually seen as all that attractive by most women to the best of my knowledge.

[Kim]

Preeeetty much.

I mean, there's nothing inherently wrong with sexy action stars. There really isn't. The problem is how gendered this stuff is and how much it panders to the straight male gaze.

If we got sexy'd up characters in equal doses regardless of gender and they were sexy'd up to the same degree, I don't think I would complain as much, cuz DAMN. That guy Kry linked? I'd be all over that.

[Seil]

Oh come, now. If you're going to post Anne Hathaway in her Catwoman duds, post the real images. (http://screenrant.com/catwoman-costume-anne-hathaway-dark-knight-rises-rob-126924/)

[Aerozord]

Which is that the male heroes aren't stereotyped or idealized for their sexual appeal, but rather for their masculinity. Female... well, anythings, honestly, are idealized based on physical attractiveness/physical appeal, as opposed to their other feminine qualities.

not gonna argue the point of how sexually objectified male characters are. Frankly I am unattractive to men, so I dont think I can really compare.

I wanted to address something else. In these example a woman is not based purely on her attractiveness. In fact in most of them, while she is attractive, and probably showing more skin then needed, it usually is not something she uses against others. Her effectiveness instead having more to do with her combat skills

Male counter-part, lets assume there is no sexual motivation. Then the character has only his combat skills. Thats it, it sends a message that a mans worth is deemed solely by his ability to bring harm to others. Cliche action hero is basically just a walking murder machine and only time any other skills come into play (which is rare) its usually just to further his ability to kill.

Not saying its worse then being objectified for sex appeal, but not like male action movie hero's are known for their intelligence or diplomacy either.

[Kim]

Both are stereotyped in different ways. Action heroes are supposed to be the "ideal" man, from a man's perspective. Action women are supposed to be the "ideal" woman, from a man's perspective. Generally speaking, of course. Both are problematic. The thing is, action women are usually designed to be sexy according to the straight male gaze and, unless they're the protagonist, the action man almost always has to save them at some point. They're good, but they'll never be as good as Action Man. That contributes to its problematic nature. Then, in movies where the action woman is the protagonist, she's very often written as a "bitch." Because, you know, any woman capable of standing on her own two feet and kicking ass while still be sexually objectified for the audience HAS to be a bitch.

At least, such is my experience with the genre.

[Krylo]

I wanted to address something else. In these example a woman is not based purely on her attractiveness. In fact in most of them, while she is attractive, and probably showing more skin then needed, it usually is not something she uses against others. Her effectiveness instead having more to do with her combat skillsI was speaking purely on visuals, there.

Masculinity and femininity as concepts I got into in the later half, but really has little to do with how women are portrayed physically. Action girls run a gamut from good characterizations to horrible sexist drivel depending on how things play out, but even the good characterizations are sullied by sticking them in, for instance, booty shorts and a top so tight you can almost see nipple.

For multiple reasons, ranging from cognitive dissonance (who leaves that much skin exposed during gunfights/during safaris/basically at any time? Why is she?) to simply adding a facet to the character that isn't written in regarding her sexuality and how she chooses to flaunt it.

Not saying its worse then being objectified for sex appeal, but not like male action movie hero's are known for their intelligence or diplomacy either.The problems with this are that society doesn't think 'diplomacy' is cool, and thus it's not a 'negative' thing to avoid it, and male action heroes are quite often shown as cunning, thinking on their feet, etc. They may not stop to calculate pi out to the thirtieth digit, but they will, often, throw water all over the ground and then drop some electrical cables in it to kill/stun multiple better armed opponents, or shoot a steam vent near where a 'bad guy' is taking cover.

I mean, watch the first couple Rambos and it is basically nothing but John Rambo outsmarting everyone so he can kill them.

And, again, calculating pi isn't seen as cool or awesome by society, and thus there is no negative connotation for using their intellect to cleverly think on their feet and use their environment to their advantage, rather than being 'nerds'.

Edit: Ninja'd by Lizilicious, but I think the posts are complimentary more than repetitive.

[Kim]

Kry has brought it to my attention that I forgot to mention action women are often characterized as "sluts" as well. TBH, there's nothing wrong with being a slut, but it is viewed as such by large sections of society, particularly the target demographic. In short: A problematic cliche because it's more sexual pandering while at the same time based in very problematic beliefs.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Both are stereotyped in different ways. Action heroes are supposed to be the "ideal" man, from a man's perspective. Action women are supposed to be the "ideal" woman, from a man's perspective. Generally speaking, of course. Both are problematic. The thing is, action women are usually designed to be sexy according to the straight male gaze and, unless they're the protagonist, the action man almost always has to save them at some point. They're good, but they'll never be as good as Action Man. That contributes to its problematic nature. Then, in movies where the action woman is the protagonist, she's very often written as a "bitch." Because, you know, any woman capable of standing on her own two feet and kicking ass while still be sexually objectified for the audience HAS to be a bitch.

At least, such is my experience with the genre.

That's a bit harsh, from my exprience its from both male and female perspectives. Not just strictly male.

[Kim]

Though anecdote is hardly data, you seem to be using anecdotal evidence so I might as well counter with such, most women don't consider the ideal woman to be A. a half naked bitchy slut (terms used for how the shows intend to characterize, else I would not use them) or B. a half naked woman who plays second fiddle to a much more competent male figure.

But what do I know?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Though anecdote is hardly data, you seem to be using anecdotal evidence so I might as well counter with such, most women don't consider the ideal woman to be A. a half naked bitchy slut (terms used for how the shows intend to characterize, else I would not use them) or B. a half naked woman who plays second fiddle to a much more competent male figure.
But what do I know?

I don't remember defending that. I was poit more towards the generic sexy not complete hore. Though yes there are women that support that just as they're are guys like us who don't apporve of it.

[Kim]

But it's not "generic sexy." It is wearing impractical, silly outfits for the express purpose of showing as much skin to the audience as possible while still maintaining the intended rating in an attempt to pander to the straight male gaze. This is further reinforced by the camera angles that are often used in these things.

[Aerozord]

Kry has brought it to my attention that I forgot to mention action women are often characterized as "sluts" as well. TBH, there's nothing wrong with being a slut, but it is viewed as such by large sections of society, particularly the target demographic. In short: A problematic cliche because it's more sexual pandering while at the same time based in very problematic beliefs.

thats abit of a double standard, male protagonists in these movies often sleep with whatever moves too.

Now I know these movies are designed to appeal to young male audience. But so is 90% of all movies made after late 70's, and before that middle aged male audience. This thing is nothing new, all they are doing is swapping the gender of the protagonist and the token member of the opposite sex that they sleep with.

[Krylo]

thats abit of a double standard, male protagonists in these movies often sleep with whatever moves too.

Now I know these movies are designed to appeal to young male audience. But so is 90% of all movies made after late 70's, and before that middle aged male audience. This thing is nothing new, all they are doing is swapping the gender of the protagonist and the token member of the opposite sex that they sleep with.
Sexuality according to society:

Male Sleeping With Lots of Women: TOTALLY FUCKING AWESOME HELL YEAHS HIGH FIVES BROS

Female Sleeping With Lots of Men: Fucking slut. Go die in a ditch.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

But it's not "generic sexy." It is wearing impractical, silly outfits for the express purpose of showing as much skin to the audience as possible while still maintaining the intended rating in an attempt to pander to the straight male gaze. This is further reinforced by the camera angles that are often used in these things.

And I agree with you on that.

[Kim]

Yes, except that it's done with different intent. When a guy sleeps with a lot of ladies, he's a cool stud. When a girl sleeps with a lot of dudes, she's a slut. That is the mentality of most of the audience, and thus it is the mentality that such movies play to.

NINJA'D: Krylo, you smooth criminal.

[Krylo]

NINJA'D: Krylo, you smooth criminal.

http://i52.tinypic.com/xfb5lz.gif

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Sexuality according to society:

Male Sleeping With Lots of Women: TOTALLY FUCKING AWESOME HELL YEAHS HIGH FIVES BROS

Female Sleeping With Lots of Men: Fucking slut. Go die in a ditch.

It's the very thing wrong with our society.

[Kim]

It's the very thing wrong with our society.

Not really "the very thing." It is one of many.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Not really "the very thing." It is one of many.

It's kind of personal for me. But your right it's one of many, many flaws with our world.

[Aerozord]

Sexuality according to society:

Male Sleeping With Lots of Women: TOTALLY FUCKING AWESOME HELL YEAHS HIGH FIVES BROS

Female Sleeping With Lots of Men: Fucking slut. Go die in a ditch.

If both men and women are portrayed as doing the same act in the same context then they are morally the same. If society says otherwise the problem is there not the portrayal.

That is my personal belief, but also inline with the original topic. I am not saying the movies dont feature sex and violence. I am saying the content is relatively consistent regardless of whether its a male or female protagonist.

Now if you want to argue its ok for a movie to show a man sleeping around but not a woman, thats a different topic then what I am trying to argue and not one I want to get into. My view of complete and total gender equivalency typically doesn't end well.

[edit] oh different intent. I see your point now. I personally do not care of the intent in this case. Intent isn't what I observe only how its portrayed. Its portrayed the same thus I view it the same. So I understand what you are saying, its just not a view I agree with

[Kyanbu The Legend]

If both men and women are portrayed as doing the same act in the same context then they are morally the same. If society says otherwise the problem is there not the portrayal.

That is my personal belief, but also inline with the original topic. I am not saying the movies dont feature sex and violence. I am saying the content is relatively consistent regardless of whether its a male or female protagonist.

Now if you want to argue its ok for a movie to show a man sleeping around but not a woman, thats a different topic then what I am trying to argue and not one I want to get into. My view of complete and total gender equivalency typically doesn't end well.

[edit] oh different intent. I see your point now. I personally do not care of the intent in this case. Intent isn't what I observe only how its portrayed. Its portrayed the same thus I view it the same. So I understand what you are saying, its just not a view I agree with

Your not alone there.

[Krylo]

Intent is what separates a gross misdemeanor with a fine and a short jail sentence from a felony murder charge and life in prison.

[Premmy]

Also intent more often then not determines the portrayal.
There's a reason the virginal woman survives the slasher flick.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Gender equality! End of thread!

seriously though...

For intent, to say that a women acting like what would make a guy a pimp isn't made with the intent to degenerate her as a character just ain't right. As that's never a 100% garanteed thing with writers. to say that would be a big insult to all male writers with female leads intended to not feed the stereo type why still being the female equvalent of a badass pimp heroine.

[Seil]

Whenever I committ a crime, there's no intent. I've been warned for carrying an open liquor container during town festivals, almost charged with public indecency (unrelated story) and whatnot.

Now I've said this before in a totally gay thread (http://nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=1024319): there's a dibble... dubble... bullshit thing what with double standards: clothing. See, the sexual end of stuff I can understand, you just wrap it up in a nice lubed bow. Man's been (unfortunately, or whatever) the dominant gender for a while and has, what Krylo has brought up, bros. Or rather, the bro mentality. However, women have been breaking in to men's stuff for a while now. Movies, music, whatever, and you guys... gals took our clothing!

You did! It's all fashionable or whatever to have girls wear guys clothes, but guys wearing girls clothes is still taboo in western society. I guess I could make that my opening statement in my college thesis what with rampant homophobia in the west. Also, guys kissing each other is also seen as odd. So are we genderally-homophobic?

[Jagos]

Two movies without women being objectified

Female Spy runs counter intelligence against the US with nothing more than her own ingenuity (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944835/)

Lady seeks revenge for death of child and husband (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Bill)

...

Hmmm... Doesn't seem to have the same flare when you don't have the titles.

I'll try to find something for the guys:

Weak guy, strong girl

Cute woobie robot goes out to save the girl and the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WALL-E)

Mad science runs amok. Who ya gonna call? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostbusters)

Iunno if I agree that most movies objectify men or women. There's at least examples of good movies that show the cunning female character without being a thief or using sexuality as a weapon, as well as guys who are nerds using high tech engineering tools to save the day.

Also, you guys should look at the Hays Code and why they villify women's promiscuity so much. It's the same reason that Freddie and Jason follow the rules of killing based on morality.

[Kim]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrpgh8QX4C1qffi1e.gif

.

[Sifright]

Nah guys can kiss in greeting in european in western european countries although it's rarer now than it used to be. The whole homophobia thing is mainly USAS shtich due to religious influence.

[Seil]

Whoo, my threads are doin' their inteded purpose and runnin' a conversation!

[Premmy]

Wah.. Jagos...
Wall-e is about robots. and the main characters of Ghostbusters were all men.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

The more I get involved with this discussion the more I'm glad I stopped watching movies that aren't DBZ or Bleach if any at all.

Thanks Jagos for those examples, I'm sure there are more of them too. :) Seil the momophobia in this country sometimes makes me happy that the US is falling apart so that it can get the karmatic justice it's western society deserves. But that's a terrible way of thinking so... I settle for saying that the west needs sto speed up this accepting homosexuallity thing and eliminate double standard COMPLETELY.

I dream of a world where men and women are truely equal.

[akaSM]

Nah guys can kiss in greeting in european in western european countries although it's rarer now than it used to be.

People do that here too, at least when greeting someone of your family. I haven't seen that kind of greeting in other situations though.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

.

There was popcorn in there damn it!! I had a reason to do that!

[Premmy]

Momo is scary as fuck.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r298/MonkeyM666/Momo_avatar.jpg

[Krylo]

momophobia

Totally justified.

[Kim]

The more I get involved with this discussion the more I'm glad I stopped watching movies that aren't DBZ or Bleach if any at all.

Because THOSE aren't sexist at all~

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Because THOSE aren't sexist at all~

But they're cartoons so it's easier to ignore/not care about it.

[Kim]

:|

[Jagos]

Wah.. Jagos...
Wall-e is about robots. and the main characters of Ghostbusters were all men.

But were they the kind of Hollywood Homely guys that Hollywood is known for?

The Wall-E one is there because how can you deny that guy is cute... You just wanna give him a hug. It could have been worse...

I was thinking about linking Twilight.

[Kim]

I was thinking about linking Twilight.

:|

[Premmy]

1: You REALLY wanna bring twilight?
2: there.. there's seriously.. ugh.. I.. ugh!

[Krylo]

Objectification?
http://i53.tinypic.com/pr7nk.jpg

What objectification?

Edit: A blank page for every month my man is missing, because I am, literally, nothing without him. This book isn't sexist at all.

Lawl Twilight.

[akaSM]

Thanks Jagos for those examples, I'm sure there are more of them too. :).

Yes there are :3

Young girl's moves to a new neighborhood, gets lost in the process. Now the daughter must work at a strange place so that she can find her parents. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirited_Away)

A girl goes away from home, to work and start a independent life. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiki%27s_Delivery_Service)

EDIT: Do I get extra points for posting 2 "cartoons"? :3

Twilight...really...I just...wat

[Kim]

The thing is the ability to point out exceptions does not disprove the trend.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

:|

This has been a thing for about as long as I can remember. It's more or less a sex sells thing that hollywood has going on. Sexy badass women kicking all kinds of asses= money, lots of money to them... usually.

I'd talk more but something tells me that this is a thread I shouldn't be too involved in. I can be a bit biased when it comes to this kind of subject.

It's why I was hasitent to get involved in the first place. It's one thing when it settle, it another when it's bluntly in your face.

Rengiku is a decent character reguardless.

[Krylo]

Rengiku is a decent character reguardless.

Tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits Orihime. . .

Tits.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Still a decent character.

[Kim]

Still a decent character.

I'm trying to remember the last worthwhile thing she did that wasn't dying.

I think it happened in a filler arc.

[Krylo]

Liz. Lizzy. Liiiiiz.

It was having tits.

Edit: Big ones.

Edit Edit: Like holy shit look at those funbags you could get lost in them for weeks.

Edit Edit Edit: Untold stories, the intrepid adventurers found perished of malnourishment in Rangiku's cleavage.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

You know what forget it. I lost this side topic. Bringing up the most hated manga on the forum as a list of movies I watch was just fuel against me. I'm backing out of this topic before my projects and art get affected... again.

[akaSM]

The thing is the ability to point out exceptions does not disprove the trend.

Unfortunately, that's true :/

Tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits tits Orihime. . .

Tits.

Hehe, I bet you got the same expression your avatar does :3

[Kim]

Bringing up the most hated manga on the forum as a list of movies I watch was just fuel against me.

How much we do or do not like it is really irrelevant. You brought up BLEACH in a discussion about sexism. Is Bleach the most sexist manga? No, but it's certainly not remotely progressive. Yeah, we're gonna call attention to that.

I'm backing out of this topic before my projects and art get affected... again.
Thank you for keeping us up to date.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Damn it I just can't stay off this topic.

I brought it up only as a side mention to what movies I STILL watch. I never, and I mean never said I watched it for reasons releated to the topic at hand. If it's important to know, I watch it for the sword fights. Same reason I watch DBZ, for the senseless over the top violence nothing more.

But it's off topic and unimportant. I only came back so that I wouldn't look like a coward for backing out after screwing up again.

And besides there isn't much else to discuss about this topic outside of arguements that will just keep going back and forth anyway.

So might as well let it die or spam/troll it to death as part of NPF tradition.

[Kim]

I brought it up only as a side mention to what movies I STILL watch.

We were talking about sexism in movies. That was the discussion at hand.

You said, "Thank goodness I only watch Bleach and DBZ anymore," in response to this discussion.

How, exactly, did you think it would be interpreted?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I was assuming it would be ignored as usual for awhile. But the ultimate out come was more or less the same.

It's an unavoidable outcome when I get involved in a discussion about the over sexualized media problem and male dominence. No matter how much I try to avoid it.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

It's an unavoidable outcome when I get involved in a discussion about the over sexualized media problem and male dominence. No matter how much I try to avoid it.

What is the unavoidable outcome?!

You just say that you shouldn't be in the thread? You offer up an argument and then back out when someone actually tries discussing it with you? You'll complain about it "impacting your art?"

Dude. You need to quit complaining about being misrepresented or whatever the hell you're doing when you're not even willing to explain yourself adequately.

[Ecks]

Aside from Kubo liking to draw well endowed women, they kind of skirt sexism in a "drawing attention to it" sense.

Almost all Bleach characters ("KUROSAKI-KUN! KUROSAKI-KUN! KUROSAKI-KUN!" fangirl aside) that have two X chromosomes are generally on equal footing with their male equivalents. Rangiku, while a good character, was not a good example due to having half her busom hanging out (which I assume to be a combat tactic, she's very much about distracting a target, given Haineko's ability). There's a whole laundry list of decent female characters who don't exhibit the usual disregard for practical clothing in combat, while still holding strong values.

Orihime though, however much better she's gotten since the time skip in the manga, will always fall short of where I'd hoped she would. If she could've stayed the way she was pre-SS and just been the plucky Cloudcookerlander instead of Kubo making her pine away for Ichigo to obliviously misread her signals...

I don't know, does that make me sexist that that annoys me? I understand a lot of character development came from her anguish and unrequited love, but still, when it comes down to the point where every word out of her mouth for a whole chapter or episode was "KUROSAKI-KUN!" then you have on some level derailed your character.

But then we all have to remember, I guess, that Japanese values and American values do not coincide in some respects.

[Magus]

I don't know that Kill Bill wasn't objectifying. You see, Tarantino actually has a foot fetish, and that's why we spent half the movie looking at Uma Thurman's feet. He just happens to find something titillating that isn't her chest.

That said it was certainly closer to being empowering than 99% of other movies.

[Aerozord]

maybe its also the type of movie we are discussing. There is a huge differance between popcorn action flick and a deep and thought provoking one.

Frankly I dislike the rule that all movies must have a love interest. Seriously modern screen writing views love interest as crucial to have as an antagonist, as in, if you dont have one dont bother writing it. Then of course anything PG-13 or above, ie all action movies, will have a sex scene, just cause.

Lets also remember there are many hands in a movie. It really just takes one person insisting she gets her tits out for this to happen. Hell I've heard they have added such scenes specifically because a certain female actress was playing the role and they knew it would boost sales.

[Magus]

I noticed when watching The Green Hornet (not really a recommended movie by me but it was okay for a movie channel movie) that Cameron Diaz's character was introduced something like a third of the way through the movie and was pretty pointless.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

What is the unavoidable outcome?!

You just say that you shouldn't be in the thread? You offer up an argument and then back out when someone actually tries discussing it with you? You'll complain about it "impacting your art?"

Dude. You need to quit complaining about being misrepresented or whatever the hell you're doing when you're not even willing to explain yourself adequately.

Believe me I'm sorry things turned out like that. The discussion started becoming personal for me and I got too carried away. Shit almost always seem to happen.

On topic
I've never really noticed that most flix have atleast 1 love interest. It's an over used thing but not really something that's as bad as over used and over sexualized lead characters.

[phil_]

So, back to where this was this morning when I went to work, you want some strong female animoos? This chick right here:

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/3695/263070-kaoruko_hanasaki_large.jpg

Kaoruko's a famous botanist, runs a botanical garden and owns a flower shop, sent her son to college (he's a professor, now), mentors her granddaughter and her stupid little friends, and saved the world with judo and flower magic.

This is an animoo that deserves your respect.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

And for western shows there's Harmina and Princess Alura From Voltron Force. Gwen from Ben 10 Ultimate Alien. Shera from the old 80's She-ra.

Xena from the live action show "Xena". Dr.Holiday from "Generator Rex". Asuka Tano from "StarWars: Clone Wars".

And many more off the tip of my tung that I can't remember the names of.

Pics when I'm not feeling lazy.

[Aerozord]

In Avatar most of the strongest characters are female. Course this is a series that did an entire mini-arc on gender roles in societies

[Marc v4.0]

In Avatar most of the strongest characters are female. Course this is a series that did an entire mini-arc on gender roles in societies

It was also awesome

[Kyanbu The Legend]

And the new lead Character "Korra" was more or less designed to subverted this trend.

It was also awesome

Everything about Avatar was awesome.

Arguably "Queen's Blade" subverts this too while still being a fanservice based series. Though YMMV on rather or not it counts.

[Magus]

Any Mayazaki anime has "strong female characters".

[Seil]

The Miyazaki flicks that I've seen - Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away - have... what? A wolf princess literally abandoned by her parents to be eaten by a wolf and is brought up to hate her own kind, but finds love and redemption in the arms of the big, strong, male lead that's dealing with his own demons.

Spirited Away has a... thirteen (?) year old chick who's shanghied into working in a bath house by a witch, stinks at it, lucks into saving a river spirit, and then goes on a big journey to convince the super nice sister of the witch to save her pseudo-boyfriend. After which, she somehow correctly assumes that he's the spirit of the river that she lost her shoe in when she was younger and he's saved from the evil witch forever.

Not saying that they're bad movies, or uninteresting characters, but one's a tough girl who goes after the troubled male lead, the other's a klutz who's in way over her head and falls for the only guy who shows her any sympathy, pretty much lucking through every obstacle.

[Jagos]

I dunno if you could use Japan in a sense.

Sakamoto may have created Metroid and gave us a tough badass female chick...

But fleshing her out into a character has been... Difficult to say the least.

Then there's Team Ninja's past... Yeah.

Your best bet is with Sega for furries or their WWI simulators.

[Kerensky287]

I dunno if you could use Japan in a sense.

Square-Enix. Lightning Farron, Oerba Yun Fang, Ashelia Dalmasca, Freya Crescent, Tifa Lockheart (kinda), Celes Chere, Faris Tycoon (might not count because she is literally pretending to be male), Rydia. And that doesn't count any of the spinoffs, or FF10 because I haven't played it.

That's just one company, I can think of more.

Sakamoto may have created Metroid and gave us a tough badass female chick...

But fleshing her out into a character has been... Difficult to say the least.

Samus would be fine if Sakamoto was anything other than a useless fucking writer.

Your best bet is with Sega for furries or their WWI simulators.

I... wait, what?

If you're talking about Sonic the Hedgehog, then that's a TERRIBLE source of strong female characters.

Valkyria Chronicles, yes, probably (though I haven't played it). Bayonetta, definitely. But fuck no, not Sonic the Hedgehog.

[Marc v4.0]

Remember, strong characters are never ever supposed to have romances or rely on others. Especially if they do either with the opposite sex, that's just plan insane and in no way reflective of real people at all.

[Aerozord]

probably a bad idea to use characters from series of other nations as examples. Their values and views on gender are different. Not saying they are invalid, just that it might be a bad idea to put them up to the perspective of a very different culture.

[phil_]

Remember, strong characters are never ever supposed to have romances or rely on others. Especially if they do either with the opposite sex, that's just plan insane and in no way reflective of real people at all.http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8448/tsubomih09.png

But Tsubomi likes every boy! You telling me magical middle-school Michael Weston isn't a strong character? How many clients' problems have you solved this week with the help of your friends? That's what I thought.

[Fifthfiend]

True. Apparently, truly unattractive people do not even bother to get into acting in the first place, unless they're going to be a character actor, like "guy who plays angry fat police chief" or "woman who plays old witch crone".

My favorite moment in Sexy Tudors is when Henry meets his latest wife, Anne of Cleves, and goes SHE LOOKS LIKE A HORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And she's like... exactly as stunningly beautiful as every single actor on that show.

EDIT: Weirdly this is kind of true to history except that the show itself acts as if she actually is supposed to be unattractive.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

My favorite moment in Sexy Tudors is when Henry meets his latest wife, Anne of Cleves, and goes SHE LOOKS LIKE A HORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And she's like... exactly as stunningly beautiful as every single actor on that show.

EDIT: Weirdly this is kind of true to history except that the show itself acts as if she actually is supposed to be unattractive.

Either he's speaking very poorly of her or, rather, he's speaking very highly of his horse.

[Kerensky287]

Michael Weston

Oooh! Yes! Burn Notice. I think Fiona Glenanne is a damn good example of a Strong Female Character (TM), especially with the trigger-happiness, gratuitous C4 and sexy, sexy accent.

EDIT: Revolutionary idea: how many Weak Female Characters (TM) would be vastly improved by giving them C4 and firearms?

[Magus]

The Miyazaki flicks that I've seen - Princess Mononoke, Spirited Away - have... what? A wolf princess literally abandoned by her parents to be eaten by a wolf and is brought up to hate her own kind, but finds love and redemption in the arms of the big, strong, male lead that's dealing with his own demons.

Spirited Away has a... thirteen (?) year old chick who's shanghied into working in a bath house by a witch, stinks at it, lucks into saving a river spirit, and then goes on a big journey to convince the super nice sister of the witch to save her pseudo-boyfriend. After which, she somehow correctly assumes that he's the spirit of the river that she lost her shoe in when she was younger and he's saved from the evil witch forever.

Not saying that they're bad movies, or uninteresting characters, but one's a tough girl who goes after the troubled male lead, the other's a klutz who's in way over her head and falls for the only guy who shows her any sympathy, pretty much lucking through every obstacle.

Yeah, but they're still strong female characters.

They don't have to be lesbians to be strong female characters. Pretty sure they can be romantically involved with a male in the movie and still be strong female characters.

Tales of Earthsea had a pretty strong female lead, too, as did Howl's Moving Castle, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind, etc.

[Marc v4.0]

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/8448/tsubomih09.png

But Tsubomi likes every boy! You telling me magical middle-school Michael Weston isn't a strong character? How many clients' problems have you solved this week with the help of your friends? That's what I thought.

sarcasm

[Fifthfiend]

I honestly have no idea what this thread is.

There are certainly legitimate criticisms of legitimately-deserving-of-criticism things which uh... include some of the same words as I've seen used in this thread, but past that yeah IDEK.

[phil_]

This is the thread where I tell people to watch my little girl cartoons, namely Heartcatch Precure, Fifth. Pretty simple, really.

[Fifthfiend]

Like maybe this thread is criticizing apparently strong female characters who aren't really, or the necessity of strong female characters who have to sex it up to be allowed to appear in things, or maybe it's not even criticizing that there are characters who are female and do things strongly, or maybe it's not criticizing anything and is just noting that characters who are female and do things which might be considered to possess strongitude exist in fictitious works, or maybe it's about some shitty anime that Phil likes. I DUNNO, WHAT

edit: I feel like I should just make twelve or thirteen threads for all of the things which hypothetically might have been whatever was supposed to be the actual point of this thread.

[phil_]

I think you may have forgotten that this is a Seil thread. It's ok; he didn't use the right tag this time.

[akaSM]

Why hasn't Fifth mentioned Rainbow Brite yet?

[Seil]

or the necessity of strong female characters who have to sex it up to be allowed to appear in things

Essentially this.

Yeah, but they're still strong female characters.

They don't have to be lesbians to be strong female characters. Pretty sure they can be romantically involved with a male in the movie and still be strong female characters.

I'll accept that the Princess in Mononoke is a strong character, because hey, she rescues Ashitaka at one point. There's just this shoehorned love interest.

In Spirited Away, the chick is just this kid who lucks her way into everything in a bad fantasy situation. It's less "strong female character" and more "blank slate to drive the plot forward to new fantasy situations and pretty music."

[Kim]

In Spirited Away, the chick is just this kid who lucks her way into everything in a bad fantasy situation. It's less "strong female character" and more "blank slate to drive the plot forward to new fantasy situations and pretty music."


This couldn't be more incorrect.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

In Spirited Away, the chick is just this kid who lucks her way into everything in a bad fantasy situation. It's less "strong female character" and more "blank slate to drive the plot forward to new fantasy situations and pretty music."

This couldn't be more correct.

[Kim]

You are both terrible people.

[Gregness]

So, wait, we're talking about female characters in Miyazaki films and no one's mentioned this yet?

Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGu5F9IsNdw) Fucking /thread.

[Magus]

But you were ninja'd by me on Nausicaa by a wide margin!

Really the biggest problem? Seil's only seen two Mayazaki films. Free up that Netflix queue, Seil! Don't let it be dragged down by misogynist oppression!

[Krylo]

Like maybe this thread is criticizing apparently strong female characters who aren't really, or the necessity of strong female characters who have to sex it up to be allowed to appear in things, or maybe it's not even criticizing that there are characters who are female and do things strongly, or maybe it's not criticizing anything and is just noting that characters who are female and do things which might be considered to possess strongitude exist in fictitious works, or maybe it's about some shitty anime that Phil likes. I DUNNO, WHAT

edit: I feel like I should just make twelve or thirteen threads for all of the things which hypothetically might have been whatever was supposed to be the actual point of this thread.
It's about how Kyanbu and Aerozord are wrong.

[Gregness]

Really? I thought I made sure to read everything too. =8^(

Where at? So's I don't have to dig.

[Jagos]

Free up that Netflix queue, Seil! Don't let it be dragged down by misogynist oppression!

Is that Netflix...

Or Qwixter?

Because Fuck em both...

[Seil]

I've just started online shopping and using the PS3 store! Do you think I can handle Netflix?

[Krylo]

Not on your internet.

[Fifthfiend]

Is that Netflix...

Or Qwixter?

Because Fuck em both...

Post a thread about it already.

You know you want to.

[Seil]

Not on your internet.

Ha!

[Jagos]

Post a thread about it already.

You know you want to.

I'm too lazy to do it...

[Kyanbu The Legend]

It's about how Kyanbu and Aerozord are wrong.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o180/kyanbu/Mischief%20Knights%20gallery/Memes/MemeWhywouldyoupostthatXanirasVersion2011CGMINI.pn g

But you're right and I respect you for it.

Fifth, I personally thought this thread was about how Double Standard stinks.

I have no idea what it's about now.

[synkr0nized]

wat

[phil_]

http://www.millionmonkeytheater.com/moviepics/rdnlookup.jpg

[greed]

...... I chose NOW to finally look at this thread? Now?

[Marc v4.0]

ayup

[Kim]

whelp thread over

ban everyone

delete forums

start from scratch

[akaSM]

I have no idea what it's about now.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8516/pointingup1.jpg

[Azisien]

I watched this movie last night to remind me of,

http://www.getandcollect.nl/sculptureimages/elastigirl.jpg

...whom I'd consider strong by her own right.

[Sifright]

Look at those hips man and that tiny tiny waist. Totally over sexualised I mean where the hell do her organs go?! :S

Edit: Ps thong on the outside of her costume!?

[akaSM]

That's what the stand is for, unless...:aaa:

[Kyanbu The Legend]

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8516/pointingup1.jpg

Aw shucks, you're making me blush.

Seriously though, Noncon (Liz) is right. This thread is at the end now. Might as well let it rest in peace.

[Marc v4.0]

You spelled Humanity wrong

[Aerozord]

whelp thread over

ban everyone

delete forums

start from scratch

PURGE WITH FIRE AND SALT

[Seil]

But has Pixar ever done anything wrong?

[POS Industries]

But has Pixar ever done anything wrong?
Cars.

[Kim]

And Cars 2.

[Kerensky287]

Look at those hips man and that tiny tiny waist. Totally over sexualised I mean where the hell do her organs go?! :S

She is made of rubber. She compressed her organs into her hips.

[Marc v4.0]

Remember, strong characters are never ever supposed to have romances or rely on others. Especially if they do either with the opposite sex, that's just plan insane and in no way reflective of real people at all.

Addendum: They must be as Butch and unattractive as possible

[Kyanbu The Legend]

In Pixar's defense, Cars wasn't all that bad.

Cars 2 is a different story though.

[Fifthfiend]

But has Pixar ever done anything wrong?

IDK about everybody else but I'm still really, really, really

really

really really angry about their four-limbed "insects" in Bug's Life.

[Aerozord]

IDK about everybody else but I'm still really, really, really

really

really really angry about their four-limbed "insects" in Bug's Life.

so talking, making tools, having complex socieites, being blue, thats all ok, but oh no they have fewer limbs how dare they be so unrealistic

[Marc v4.0]

And the Ants were pushed around my Grasshoppers, totally realistic there

[CABAL49]

so talking, making tools, having complex socieites, being blue, thats all ok, but oh no they have fewer limbs how dare they be so unrealistic

Actually ants have a very sophisticated method of communication and advanced societies. In fact ants discovered farming long before us apes did.

[Aerozord]

Actually ants have a very sophisticated method of communication and advanced societies. In fact ants discovered farming long before us apes did.

they farmed before us, they didn't discover it any more then algae discovered biofeuls. There is a huge difference between blindly following instinct and having the cognitive reasoning to anticipate future events.

[Fifthfiend]

so talking, making tools, having complex socieites, being blue, thats all ok, but oh no they have fewer limbs how dare they be so unrealistic

Someone please tell me how many more "really"s I have to add to make it obvious that I'm joking

[Archbio]

A really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really long line of reallies.

But really, talking and making tools makes them anthropomorphized insects. Having four limbs makes them anthropomorphized insects designed by someone who can't count.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Forgot about bugs life and antz.

Saw them both in theaters, and hated them both ever sense.

[akaSM]

The boy ants were blue and the girl ants were pink, that makes sense...sort of...maybe.

[phil_]

The boy ants were blue and the girl ants were pink, that makes sense...sort of...maybe.Except that almost all ants are female.

[POS Industries]

antz.
That was Dreamworks. Of course it was terrible.

A Bug's Life was totally great, though, incorrect number of insect limbs aside.

[phil_]

That was Dreamworks. Of course it was terrible.Oi! Panda bears and El Dorado, man.

[POS Industries]

Oi! Panda bears and El Dorado, man.
Broken clocks, etc.

[phil_]

But that's three times! A broken clock can't be right three times a day!

[POS Industries]

Like any of this happened in a single day.

You know what else they made? Four goddamn Shrek movies. And a Puss in Boots spinoff is in the works. I don't think anyone involved with Road to El Dorado even works there anymore.

[Seil]

Anastasia and Prince Of Egypt were pretty alright.

[POS Industries]

Anastasia was made by Fox.

[synkr0nized]

I am closing this thread, for I am an empowered female.


Or I am closing this thread, for I am a misogynist forcing you to observe the glass ceiling.

[POS Industries]

Either way we should hook up sometime.

[Satan's Onion]

Feminism!