"Fuck Man" or "We're Talking About The Lord Of The Rings Now"

[Seil]

First off: Reservado 1884 Syrah is amazing. Second off, I bought the Fellowship Of The Ring with struggling college student monies. Isildur what had this one chance to destroy evil forever.

Like, done deal.

But then, he totally didn't! He was corrupted by the temptation of the One Ring. (And that is how it shall be known from here on out.) I couldn't fathom the power of the ring, but I woulda totally thrown it into the fire of Mt. Doom. Then Andy Serkis picked it up, and then Gollum! Gollum! Who murdered his fishing buddy for it! Then Viggo Mortenson was like "I'm Sexy Aragorn! Look at me, I fight off Uruk-Hai!" Then Sean Bean died a glorious death. (And Gimli killed people.)

But man had this one chance to destroy evil forever adn was like "Fuck it." what happened, man? I thought we were cool.

[Seil]

http://bestof.provocateuse.com/images/photos/viggo_mortensen_97.jpg

Sexy, sexy Aragorn.

[Viridis]

http://bestof.provocateuse.com/images/photos/viggo_mortensen_97.jpg

Sexy, sexy Aragorn.

Seil, Seil, Seil... hotlinking as always?
Rehosting:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2383368/viggo_mortensen_97.jpg


That fixed, someone explain The Silmarillion to me.

[Red Mage Black]

Nothing to see here everyone! Seil has clearly been drinking(again).

On topic, I was pretty sure that Lord of the Rings was one big metaphor for the Bible. Gollum I guess was suppose to be Judas to Frodo's Jesus? Isildur I think was also suppose to be something like Adam... or maybe King David? Hell if I know. Either way, Borimir was a douchebag and his brother was far better.

[Seil]

Hey, hey, hey! There has been express rules against Seil (Religous Discussion) here. Also, the One Ring is totally not a metaphot for the Apple of Eden or whatever it's called. Whatever happened, Gandalf is at fault.

Seriously: Hes like "Hey Bilbo, events of The Hobbit."

(And I don't know if you know, but the events of The Hobbit was bad. Sure, killing giant dragon and like, glory and whatever, but The One Ring, guys. And then Bilbo brings The One Ring back home to his peaceful farming community. And, like thirty years later Gandalf is like "FECK THE ONE RING OF EVIL HOPELESS DOOM!"

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Why couldn't Sauron find the ring when it was hanging out with gollum for 500 years? Or like when it sat on the bottom of a river for a few thousand years.
Shittest villain ever

[Red Mage Black]

Well, I think the whole thing about that was that he couldn't see where the damn thing was unless someone was actually wearing it. Why he couldn't see it when it's probably implied that Gollum wore it and didn't go after Bilbo when he used it is beyond me. Talk about neglectful, man. That and why he didn't just scorch Middle Earth to the ground just to find it while the armies of Men, Elves and Dwarves weren't prepared.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If I had a few thousand years and the command ofthe armies of darkness I reckon I could find it. And like if I remember correctly Isildur was wearing it when he leapt into the river and it slipt off his finger, the same river where Gollum found it. Why didn't you search the river where you last knew it was Sauron?
FFS.

[Archbio]

SMBP, I want you to think back to the films, if you've actually seen them. Remember how Sauron seemed to be winning even without the Ring? Now do you figure that the movies were depicting a world in which Sauron had been in control of Mordor and command of all those vast armies of darkness for thousands of years?

(The correct answer is no.)

I mean I thought the whole "Sauron got really jacked up when he lost the ring" was carried pretty well across in the movies even if they didn't get into as much detail about it than the books did.

Shittest comprehension of a story ever.

[Marc v4.0]

Yeah, fairly certain Sauron spent a hell of a lot of time after getting defeated hovering in limbo or some crap, trying to pull himself back together.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The ring was sitting on the bottom of the river for 2500 years and gollum had it 500 years according to Wikipedia.
Also according to Wiki Sauron kicked it for 1000 years before reappearing witht he Nazgul in Mirkwood, right next to the fucking river and the cave where gollum is kickingit.
Man if a bunch of hobbits can do it I'm pretty sure the Nazgul could handle the journey.
Give them some fishing nets. It'll be sweet.
Like during this time Sauron was capturing cities and shit. He clearly has armies. Send a few dudes to search a river.

Or if you can't find it in the river, Gollum puts the ring on- ho shit he's right over there. He's hiding in the darkness but that doesn't stop the Nazgul.

And the ring is fucking magic and does it best to return to Sauron. If he sends his servants otu to find it it'll will itself to them.. Problem solved.

[Archbio]

Well, shit. Better write a letter to Tolkien telling him he got it all wrong! SMBP's Mind Laser just cracked the case wide open.

The Ring just had to roll out of the bottom of the river and down the road like a little wheel. Easy peasy. And to think Tolkien didn't even think it could do that!

Come to think of it, why doesn't it just enlarge itself and strange people to death? That'd be pretty evil!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm saying fish up the river. The ring clearly has the ability to help people find it. It's one of the explicit powers fo the ring. You start fishing for it to give it to Sauron it will help you find it if you're close.
And even without that, you got like 1500 years to find it in the river and an army. Easy to find. Just train some dudes to swim. That's how gollum found it.

And even if they missed it why didn't they just go murder gollum?

[Archbio]

I'm saying fish up the river.

Assuming that Sauron has detailed, accurate knowledge about an event that occured while he didn't even have a body.

An event about something that's described as being "lost."

I don't think that a reading of the story as going "well, the Ring was underwater, so we couldn't get it, and it's all muddy down there too" is one that's in good faith. What I'm getting at is that I'm pretty sure Sauron isn't supposed to know that it was at the bottom of that river.

And looking at the Wikipedia page, seems like the chronology that you're rigidly using combined with a "whatever" reading of the actual text are mostly from the Silmarillon. As I recall, the Silmarillon is actually not all that harmonized with Tolkien's other Middle Earth stories, and was never intended for publishing by the author. So if the Silmarillon has a clear chronology, while the Lord of the Rings references events and times vaguely; and the former makes the latter nonsensical?

I'm gonna go with the latter when we're talking about the latter.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

But like Isildur was wearing it in the river then it slipped off. Sauron should have been able to know that- hecan sense the ring bearer and the last place the ring bearer was wearing the ring was where it happened to sit for the next few millenia.
And like even if he was having an emo moment at the time Isildurs death was a famous moment, heaps of orcs were there when it happened, everyone knew where it happened. ike he was the last dude to hold the ring, he died in this place, nobody has seemingly used the ring since then, this place is just down the road from my bitching fortress, maybe I should go check it out just in case.

E: All I'm saying is that when your villain is foiled in his master plan by a river which is maybe a bit muddy and then hiding in a room and turning all the lights off- it doesn't inspire confidence in his ability..

E2: Also build a dam.

[Archbio]

I don't think that a reading of the story as going "well, the Ring was underwater, so we couldn't get it, and it's all muddy down there too" is one that's in good faith. What I'm getting at is that I'm pretty sure Sauron isn't supposed to know that it was at the bottom of that river.

The ring is described as "lost." Sauron and a bunch of "Wizards" are described as not being able to find it.

No, I don't think that it's in any way a reasonable reading to conclude that they know exactly where it is but just haven't bothered going there.

So you probably mean a different villain.

[Marc v4.0]

For a famous moment, Gandalf had to do a hell of a lot of digging through obscure and forgotten texts just to find one rather vague entry.

You try sensing anything when you don't exist, sure it can't be as hard as that sounds.

[Archbio]

He just had to go to the Elrond Memorial Library and look up microfilms for the Gondor Daily News.

Duh.

[Azisien]

I love the extended editions because they portray Gandalf as more and more of a pothead.

[Ecks]

I assume you're talking about Return of the King?

Extended scene where's he's smoking a pipe making fun of Pippin (as usual), he coughs an awful lot.

Like, that's not tobacco smoke coughing. That's pipe "weed" coughing.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I remember a long time ago I watched the movies with an older friend and I didn't get it because I was probably around the age of 10, but then my Spanish teacher started showing us the Spanish dub to occasionally eat time and I suddenly understood everything.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The ring is described as "lost." Sauron and a bunch of "Wizards" are described as not being able to find it.

No, I don't think that it's in any way a reasonable reading to conclude that they know exactly where it is but just haven't bothered going there.

So you probably mean a different villain.


But it was in precisely the last place it was seen. And this was in a famous battle which is mentioned numerous times by lots of people and the place where this battle occured is in the name of the battle "gladden fields".
Like ok, Gandalf didn't find it either- that just makes Gandalf stupid as well. Though he would have been hampered by Sauron having his fortress right next to where he has to look.
It wasn't so much "lost" as everyone was too lazy to go find it.

And like Gandaf having to look up shit about the one ring- too much pot smoking. Like he was there when all the shit originally happened, he carries one of the rings himself.
Stupid, stupid.


E: Readig some more, Gandalf did know the ring fell in the river but he was like "It's totally washed to sea, bound to have... bound to, let's not waste time looking for it". That's pretty stupid Gandalf.
Also apparentely Sauron did search the river for it but didn't find it. So like instead of doing all the risky shit in the lord of the rings they shoud have just like dug a big hole and buried it. Cause Sauron can't find things for shit.

[Red Mage Black]

I assume you're talking about Return of the King?

Extended scene where's he's smoking a pipe making fun of Pippin (as usual), he coughs an awful lot.

Like, that's not tobacco smoke coughing. That's pipe "weed" coughing.
Huh, what someone pointed out to me once, maybe pipe weed is just the lingo or something for tobacco? Maybe it's more 'pipe weed'. Granted, their whole point in smoking seems more for relaxing, hence the thing it's probably actually like weed.

And uh... didn't Gollum and his buddy find it in a lake, not the river itself? Unless my perception is just skewed when I watch the movie or they just changed it from the book.

Another thing they could have done was give it to the Dwarves and chuck it down one of their huge friggin' chasms. "You can go down to get it, but good luck coming back out or alive for that matter." The Ring wouldn't be destroyed, but at least it saves the trouble of it corrupting anyone else.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm just going by Wikipedia here which doesn't say whether it a lake or a river but does say it was in Gladden Fields which is where Isildur lost it so I think it safe assumption it was there or thereabouts.

Other things you could do witht he ring- hide it on one of the boats going to the undying lands- Sauron can't get there so he is fucked. Stick it in a box on the underwater side of the hull so nobody finds it.
Or you know, chuck it in a river- any river. That works really well.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I was under the impression that hiding it wasn't enough. Like, Sauron would exist so long as the ring did or some stuff like that.

e: I remember the scene where the elf was like "Kill the evil Ilsidure" and Isildur was like "Nah" and I was thinking to myself "Why doesn't the elf just kill Ilsidur?" Seriously, shoot him with an arrow, stab him with a sword, or just grab him and leap into the volcano with him. You ought to try something.

[Magus]

Nothing to see here everyone! Seil has clearly been drinking(again).

On topic, I was pretty sure that Lord of the Rings was one big metaphor for the Bible. Gollum I guess was suppose to be Judas to Frodo's Jesus? Isildur I think was also suppose to be something like Adam... or maybe King David? Hell if I know. Either way, Borimir was a douchebag and his brother was far better.

There are some Biblical parallels but Tolkein was way more into Norse mythology than Biblical stuff. His buddy C.S. Lewis was more into Biblical analogies.

Like the cosmology of the world created kind of resembles a mixture of Christianity and Norse stuff, you have an archangel in Melkor/Morgoth rebelling against his creator and attempting to take over the world with fallen angels as his generals like Sauron and so on, but then you also have a lot of other stuff like those giant trees and whatever that is way more Nordic, or the final battle resembles Ragnarok more than Armageddon. Also the names are all Nordic sounding.

I could go into more detail but I can't even remember half the names for stuff, like the archangels are called the Valar, can't remember what Sauron/Gandalf/Saruman are called...I'm not on my A-game right now.

Also Re: the opening post here I just have to say that Seil must have been completely trashed, even more so than usual, when he wrote that.

EDIT: Oh, Sauron and Gandalf are Maiar, whereas the top brass (Morgoth and then the good ones) are Valar. Then you have the creator...Manwe or something? It's been forever since I read the Silmarillion.

ANOTHER EDIT: Er wait Eru Iluvatar created the Ainur/Valar which are like the archangels, I think Manwe was one of those dudes, as well as Morgoth...then Morgoth rebels and takes some of the Maiar, lesser angels, into trying to conquer the world, like Sauron. Whereas Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, etc. are given human form and fight for the side of good (until Saruman decides to join forces with Sauron, of course).

So the Ainur are similar not only to the Nordic Aesir (Thor and Odin and those dudes) but also archangels in Judeo-Christian stuff.

[Archbio]

Barrelpants,

And like Gandaf having to look up shit about the one ring- too much pot smoking. Like he was there when all the shit originally happened, he carries one of the rings himself.
Stupid, stupid.


Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the West of Middle-Earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards.

Page 359 of my HarperCollins edition of the Silmarillion, and I'm pretty sure that's the progression of events suggested by the Lord of the Rings, too. The Wizards arrive way after Sauron lost his groove, and Gandalf gets one of the Three as a gift upon arrival (that or he finds it in a cereal box.)

From page 360 onwards:

But Saruman now began to study the lore of the Rings of Power, their making and their history.[...]

'For I believe not,' said he, 'that the One will ever be found again in Middle-earth. Into Anduin it fell, and long ago, I deem, it was rolled to the Sea. There it shall lie until the end, when all this world is broken and the deeps are removed.'[...]He set a watch upon the Gladden Fields; but soon he discovered that the servants of Dol Guldur were searching all the ways of the River in that region. Then he perceived that Sauron also had learned of the manner of Isildur's end, and he grew afraid and withdrew to Isengard and fortified it[...]To this Curunir [Saruman] now assented, desiring that Sauron should be thrust from Dol Guldur, which was nigh to the River, and should have leisure to search there no longer.

For [The Ring] had been taken from Anduin long ere they sought for it, being found by one of the small fisher-folk that dwelt by the River[...]and by its finder it was brought beyond search into dark hiding under the roots of the mountains. There it dwelt, until even in the year of the assault upon Dol Guldur it was found again, by a wayfarer[.]

The Lord of the Rings probably just goes into less detail about it while keeping the same pattern, so I think that'll do.

Saruman knows the Ring was lost in the river, because he's studied the lore of it. The other Wizards don't seem to have much of a clue about that, and when Saruman informs them of it, it's to mislead them and distract them with an optimistic conclusion. That Sauron would know the details of the story of Isildur doesn't seem to have been a given to Saruman.

So obviously: there's an obscure character to it. I don't remember how the Lord of the Rings convey that. Well, I know that the movies convey it by having Gandalf do his own search of that forgotten lore.

So basically Tolkien describes Saruman and Sauron as learning whereabout the Ring was lost, they search for it (no small task I think, considering it's called The Great River and the Gladden Fields are marshes) while trying not to alert the whole world to it and they mutually obstruct each other.

And it's all moot, because the Ring was already gone by then. Deviousness/wisdom foiled by random chance seems to be the theme.

That's not to say that Gandalf wasn't sometimes kind of a shiftless pothead. That's practically a theme, too!

I was under the impression that hiding it wasn't enough. Like, Sauron would exist so long as the ring did or some stuff like that.

Yeah, as I recall it's also why they don't give it to Tom Bombadil.

Page 363, Gandalf, being diligent about that one thing, at least:

'It is not needed that the Ring should be found, for while it abides on earth and is not unmade, still the power that it holds will live, and Sauron will grow and have hope [...] Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three.'

Again, I thought that was conveyed even in the movie by Mordor just then going to war with a massive army that's growing into something virtually unstoppable.

Making the ring practically impossible to find could have been easy enough, sure, but it would have been sort of a Pyrrhic victory.

[Seil]

Because people mostly know the movies, I feel safe in saying this:

It was Tom Bombadils fault. All of it.

That's why they cut him out of the movies. I mean, he's a bear. Who knows what type of shennanigans he was up to?

[Archbio]

You're thinking of the other random weirdo loiterer, the one from The Hobbit, methinks.

Still a good point. It goes for both of them.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Barrelpants,

Yeah that is in the book but it just confirms further that these characters are stupid. It's your mortal enemies/your own key source of power. It was lost in a famous battle with the death of a mythic hero. Like that's the kind of thing you should just know. Why did nobody go search for it the moment Isildur died? Why did everyone just forget about it.
Like clearly they all did just forget about it but that's fucking stupid.
Both Gandalf and Sauron are bumbling incompetents who forget incredibly important pieces of information because they hitting too much of the pipeweed.




Again, I thought that was conveyed even in the movie by Mordor just then going to war with a massive army that's growing into something virtually unstoppable.

Making the ring practically impossible to find could have been easy enough, sure, but it would have been sort of a Pyrrhic victory.

Just divert the river next to mordor to go right around it. Problem solved.

Because people mostly know the movies, I feel safe in saying this:

It was Tom Bombadils fault. All of it.

That's why they cut him out of the movies. I mean, he's a bear. Who knows what type of shennanigans he was up to?

Tom Bombadil is the greatest hero who ever lived. Fuck you.

[Marc v4.0]

Yeah that is in the book but it just confirms further that these characters are stupid. It's your mortal enemies/your own key source of power. It was lost in a famous battle with the death of a mythic hero. Like that's the kind of thing you should just know. Why did nobody go search for it the moment Isildur died? Why did everyone just forget about it.
Like clearly they all did just forget about it but that's fucking stupid.


As clearly stated above, the Wizards appeared AFTER the fact. They can't really remember something happened they weren't around for, much less search for it the moment it happened when they -didn't exist-.

Their leader said it was cool, nothing to worry about. Why would they?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm going to help middle earth fight Sauron. Do I not look up his history? Do I not ask about what he'sbeen up to- how people beat him in the past?
I get a magical ring of power do I not ask- hey what's the deal with this ring?
And like he's been kicking it in Valinor all the time before that, did nobody talk about all this shit going down before hand? Like water cooler talk for suresi.
What happens when men die in middle earth? Is Isildurs spirit kicking it somewhere? Go have a chat to him before going to middle earth.
Gandalf doesn't do tactical planning, he just runs in with a machine gun- blam blam bam.


And none of this excuses Sauron. Pretty sure he knew about it.

[Archbio]

Barrelpants,

Just divert the river next to mordor to go right around it. Problem solved.

Two things. I have no idea why you're saying that and what it relates to. What problem would be solved by doing that?

And also: "just divert the (great) river"? "Just go talk to Isildur's spirit"?

When you watch a movie and the character is in a bad spot do you think "why didn't he just pull an atom bomb out of his pocket? stupid stupid stupid"? I mean, that applies to any situation. An atom bomb would solve the problem, why don't they have one?

Good example;

And none of this excuses Sauron. Pretty sure he knew about it

Well, from the passages I quoted earlier (that was somehow missed: )

Then he perceived that Sauron also had learned of the manner of Isildur's end

Sauron knew about it. After discovering what is evidently obscure lore in Middle-earth.* He also acted on it.

There's really no reason from what I recall and what I just read to think that Sauron at any point was delayed in his pursuit of the Ring by stupidity, rather than by the fact of having no body, no form and (next to) no power for thousands of years.

*A wikipedia-less world by all accounts.

[CABAL49]

Morgoth's Ring was one of the most depressing things I ever read.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Barrelpants,



Two things. I have no idea why you're saying that and what it relates to. What problem would be solved by doing that?

And also: "just divert the (great) river"? "Just go talk to Isildur's spirit"?

When you watch a movie and the character is in a bad spot do you think "why didn't he just pull an atom bomb out of his pocket? stupid stupid stupid"? I mean, that applies to any situation. An atom bomb would solve the problem, why don't they have one?

Gandalf is a Maiar, he helped create the world, he has transcended death. And he lives in the land where at least some of the souls of the dead go. Like it'd be like a five minute stroll down the road.
He's probably had lots of smoking to do though.

Also diverting the river would be good because Sauron is clearly mortally afraid of rivers. He'd be trapped forever. And like the Simarillion the valar and maiar mass changed the landscape all the time. Gandalf could do it if he wasn't so whacked out on weeds.




Well, from the passages I quoted earlier (that was somehow missed: )



Sauron knew about it. After discovering what is evidently obscure lore in Middle-earth.* He also acted on it.

There's really no reason from what I recall and what I just read to think that Sauron at any point was delayed in his pursuit of the Ring by stupidity, rather than by the fact of having no body, no form and (next to) no power for thousands of years.

*A wikipedia-less world by all accounts.

It took him a 1000 years to come back which leaves 1500 years to find the ring and the river in which it lay was on the border of his kingdom.
Though as I've said earlier I foundt hat Sauron actually did have a look for it- which makes him more incompetent than stupid.
And still doesn't explain how Gollum hid it for so long especially as he was using it.

And again my point is, it shouldn'tbe obscure lore and if it is that's dumb and like all the dudes who fought against Sauron are dumb and the Valar are dumb and so are the wizards and pretty much the entire world is dumb. Except Tom Bombadil. He had shit sorted.

[Mondt]

Huh, what someone pointed out to me once, maybe pipe weed is just the lingo or something for tobacco? Maybe it's more 'pipe weed'. Granted, their whole point in smoking seems more for relaxing, hence the thing it's probably actually like weed.I remember hearing or reading or somehow gaining knowledge that the smoking wasn't meant to be a direct parallel to weed in the books (actually it was probably in the movies for the sake of them saying it and I'm making shit up its a vague memory don't hurt me) I think but the movies obviously, no matter what is said, make pipeweed into a mind-altering drug at least somewhat like weed. The best evidence for it is at the end of The Two Towers when Merry and Pippin find "the finest pipeweed in Southfarthing". Smoke is coming out of the room, make stupid jokes, can't stop laughing once Gandalf rolls around....

I'd probably laugh atwith Gandalf too. I mean, that beard!

Merry: 'I hotboxed the shit out of Isengard!'

EDIT: This thread needs more Pippin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WskRAEggqkQ). Spoilers i guess.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

[/I]EDIT: This thread needs more Pippin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WskRAEggqkQ). Spoilers i guess.


That is the most hauntingly beautiful part of the trilogy.

[Seil]

Needs more cowbellAragorn. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3U6PI8xW2c&feature=related)

[Marc v4.0]

It took him a 1000 years to come back which leaves 1500 years to find the ring and the river in which it lay was on the border of his kingdom.

Except by the time Sauron learned of the fate of the Ring, IT WASN'T THERE ANYMORE.

Archbio posted straight from the text that Sauron was too late to find it in the river, Gollum had already found and taken it by the time Sauron was able to look for it. What part of that isn't comprehendable?

People should remember things that never occured to them, Someone looking for something should find it someplace where it hasn't been for hundreds of years. What the hell?

[Azisien]

Two points:

Gandalf is a Maiar, he helped create the world, he has transcended death. And he lives in the land where at least some of the souls of the dead go. Like it'd be like a five minute stroll down the road.
He's probably had lots of smoking to do though.

Further strengthens the Gandalf As Stoner theory. Which I approve of. This is now canon, and consistent.

And still doesn't explain how Gollum hid it for so long especially as he was using it.

The usage of the Ring clearly releases a form of radiation, which Sauron and the Nazgul detect and home in on. Unfortunately deep in gollum's cave in the mountains, the radiation was blocked by hundreds/thousands of feet of rock.

[CABAL49]

Sauron also had a lot of orc sex army build up to catch up on.

[Archbio]

Bagelpants,

And again my point is, it shouldn'tbe obscure lore

That's not a point. I mean, in the story it's obscure lore that Isildur died trying to flee battle while using the powers of a magic Ring (powers which probably nobody stopped to make a PSA on national Gondor television to inform Isildur's contemporaries of) in the middle of the River.

The fact that the battle is kind of famous, famous or very famous (I'm not really taking your "lots of people mention it several time" as informative for several reasons, one of which should be obvious,) doesn't make every aspect and detail of it common knowledge thousands of years after, especially if it includes the king escaping (alone) in a way that wouldn't necessarily be super intuitive to the contemporaries.

The story is written around the idea that it's obscure lore, and you've given no reason why it can't be obscure lore (except for disregard/incomprehension of the nature of the setting as being pre-Information Age (among other things) which doesn't really count as a reason,) so there's no "shouldn't" about it.

And he lives in the land where at least some of the souls of the dead go. Like it'd be like a five minute stroll down the road.

"At least some"? That sure is maybe perhaps a big (kind of) possible, hypothetical plot hole.

Unless the Silmarillion says something about- oh, here we go:


The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.

I mean, it's unfortunate that Tolkien didn't anticipate this and write a list of the powers and abilities that each of his characters don't have (and which ones they have when they're in the land of the gods and which ones the lose when they take human form,) so that someone doesn't consider them stupid for not using this infinite number of abilities to make the story shorter. It's not like he was trying to impart some kind of myth-like quality or anything.

Then again he also didn't constantly belabour how small a ring is, so it's his own fault.

Also, what Marc v1.0 said.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Your arguments pretty much boil down to "Tolkein said so" which is a pretty inarguable fact- like this shit happened, everyone forgot about the battle, nobody found the ring. Doesn't make anyone less stupid though.
Like they can have ridiculously massive and detailed genealogies and can remember who their great, great, great, great ancestors were but can't remember anything relevant. ACES. Top priority there guys.
And even then it doesn't matter. My argument is that Sauron is incompetent and that stands. He is defeated by a river, he is defeated by a dark cave. How is he supposed to be scary? He sucks massive balls. The only reason he has any chance of finding the rings is because the HEROES dig it up for him. Sauron might as well just play with his cock for the first 5 books. You're less effective than a heatwave sauron.

Your myth argument makes no sense. Tolkein details everything in great massive pointless details for us. What is the point of that if he wants to portray a more fluid, more open history. His encyclopedic style doesn't serve that goal.

But you're arguing the same points, points that have no relevance to me or the argument I'm making.

So now we are going to talk about how much Sauron loves the orc cock. I propose he loves it a huge amount up his bum. Like he lives in a massive kingdom full of orcs, no pretty elves or humans around. Not even any females. Clearly something up there.
Like he has humans working for him, he could go get human pussy if he wanted. But the fact that he sits in mordor clearly indicate that he does not want to do so.

[Marc v4.0]

All The Words.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4549162/10368541.jpg

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Are you contending that Sauron loves the orc cock? Cause you'll need to provide some evidence???

Further evidence of Saurons love for the orc cock- he takes over 1500 years (time from resurrection till the Gman finds it) to learn of the fate of the weapon that will give him ultimate power, who last known location was seen by his troops and who woud take like a 2 mintue search int he library.
Cause it's hard to study with orc cock in the eye.

[Magus]

Once you go orc you never go back, Smarty. Don't knock it until you try it. The barbs on the orc cock--Sauron couldn't get enough. No Dark Lord ever could.

Also the reason Gandalf isn't aware of the stuff from when he was a Maiar (if he ever was aware of it) is when he took on human form he lost a bunch of his powers as a Maiar and his memories of his former "existence" too. A lot of that power comes back after he is resurrected, he is a lot more effective as Gandalf the White, the new chosen leader of the Istari in place of Saruman, than he was as Gandalf the Gray, but you notice his memories of his time as Gandalf the Gray are again obscured and misty, hardly comprehensible too him, like something he read about in an old book happening to someone else. The same thing happened to him when he was changed from a Maiar into human form--he'd have a vague recollection of his past life but it's hardly comprehensible.

Someone else mentioned that the fact that Gollum is so far deep underground in the Misty Mountains that that accounts for why Sauron can't find the ring after he becomes aware of himself again in spirit form.

As for why you can't just drop the ring down a chasm in Moria and forget about it, you do remember that Sauron's servants the Balrogs live in the depths of the earth, right? They run into one and everything in the first book. If you drop it into the depths of the earth then you risk the Balrogs finding it. You can't just drop the ring somewhere and try to forget about it, because Sauron has forever to find it, and besides he can conquer Middle-Earth in the meantime. He can't be completely destroyed unless you destroy the ring, only banished for a time.

You also can't send it to the Elven homeland, since the Valar would not permit it. They are like isolationist freaks over there, only helping to defeat Morgoth after thousands of years of tyranny. They won't get involved again until the Final Battle when Morgoth is set free again. Letting Sauron's ring into their paradise would be like letting Sauron in--it will corrupt and destroy the only place safe from the evil of Morgoth and the fallen Maiar.

[Archbio]

Barglepants,

And even then it doesn't matter. My argument is that Sauron is incompetent and that stands. He is defeated by a river, he is defeated by a dark cave. How is he supposed to be scary? He sucks massive balls. The only reason he has any chance of finding the rings is because the HEROES dig it up for him. Sauron might as well just play with his cock for the first 5 books. You're less effective than a heatwave sauron.

That's your argument? The other waves after waves after waves of dodgy, innacurate and just plain wrong stuff you brought up are irrelevant?

Fine by me.

Sauron isn't defeated by a River.

He's defeated because the heroes dug the Ring up "for him."

If the Ring stays in the River, or it stays with Gollum, or it stays with Tom Bombadil; Sauron still wins. The other peoples of Middle-earth are all weaker than they used to be, and Sauron is poised to conquer everything through sheer military might. If he never finds the Ring after that, he'll be sure to be spited, and he'll only be a fraction of himself forever... but since everybody else is dead or enslaved I think that counts as a Pyrrhic victory at best.

The Ring being found means that the heroes have their only chance to defeat Sauron once the last opportunity passed at Dol Guldur. And a final defeat this time.

And yes, "Gondor doesn't have a nuclear arsenal to defeat Mordor" is "Tolkien says so."

So no, Sauron isn't successful at finding the Ring. However, that doesn't make him an ineffective villain, since he has other objectives for victory and the heroes can only stall him in accomplishing them.

---

he takes over 1500 years (time from resurrection till the Gman finds it) to learn of the fate of the weapon that will give him ultimate power, who last known location was seen by his troops and who woud take like a 2 mintue search int he library.

-Sauron's return is always described as slow and gradual. So calling one point in the process "the resurrection" doesn't ring true.

-Unless it's said in the text when Sauron learns of it, I'm going to be say that's an unknown.

-His troops? He was dead at the time, there's no reason to assume that the orcs understood what had just happened to Isildur (I'd like to see someone write the scene of Sauron briefing trolls and orcs about the magic ring that's the key to all his powers, when he still had it... just in case) and I'm not sure orcs are very big on written history (or any kind of history) or even verbal reports (when their God just went bye bye.) That's just expecting too much of creatures who just really, really like corpses.

-Two minute search at the library? I thought I was exaggerating earlier with the Wikipedia reference and the Gondor National Library.

[Bard The 5th LW]

No matter how many times I see the title I still expect some sort of discussion about Megaman porn.

[Seil]

And coming in at #1... (http://www.cracked.com/article_18417_9-famous-movie-villains-who-were-right-all-along_p3.html)

And what exactly? Please tell us, because throughout the entire 2000-hour run of the Jackson trilogy, we couldn't find a single reason why everyone demonized Sauron like he was a debt-collecting pedophile. Yes, he was building an army to advance on Middle Earth. But who was in that army? What were they fighting for?

This was a world where Orcs were used as target practice among elvish communities. The elves loved that shit. Sauron put a stop to that by offering all the underprivileged creatures a place in his non-race-exclusive army (the only nonsegregated force in Middle Earth other than the Fellowship), with promises of their own country in the future. After what he did for the orcs and the goblins, Sauron was just some towering, mace-wielding folk hero.

Of course the humans and elves couldn't have that, because if orcs moved-in next door to them, their houses' property value would go down. After all, these creatures are dark and smelly and have weird voices. They must be murdered on sight.

We hear a lot about freedom, and the free peoples of Middle Earth standing up to Mordor. What do we mean by "free?" They're certainly not fighting for Democracy -- each kingdom is a monarchy where the people have no say over what the leader does as long as that leader possesses the right genes. And overwhelmingly it seems like what those leaders like to do is shit on the Orcs, and the countless other minorities who Sauron was able to recruit onto his side.

What you were seeing in these films was not an unprovoked act of aggression, undertaken just for the hell of it. You were seeing generations of pent-up frustration by oppressed minorities, harnessed by a leader they could get behind. What Sauron did was nothing more than try to cut out a piece of that Middle Earth dream for himself and his followers, and find land that doesn't require them to live under a continuously erupting volcano.

His methods were violent and there were excesses -- as you see in every revolution. But if Middle Earth doesn't take a moment to understand why Sauron was able to draw tens of thousands of disenfranchised individuals to his cause, then they're destined to fight the same war all over again, as soon as the next Sauron shows up.

[phil_]

Of course the humans and elves couldn't have that, because if orcs moved-in next door to them, their houses' property value would go down. After all, these creatures are dark and smelly and have weird voices. They must be murdered on sight.Also, they eat humans.And overwhelmingly it seems like what those leaders like to do is shit on the Orcs, and the countless other minorities who Sauron was able to recruit onto his side.Minorities which eat humans.What Sauron did was nothing more than try to cut out a piece of that Middle Earth dream for himself and his followers, and find land that doesn't require them to live under a continuously erupting volcano.A land where they can eat humans.

So, yeah, I'm all for equality and all that, but "Tonight, we dine on man-flesh" kinda throws that all out the window in favor of biological imperative to not be eaten.

Also, I believe you, Archbio. Your arguments against drunk bottom-landers are not in vain.

[Seil]

Hey, cows and pigs hate us for eating them. (They show it by forcing us to take care of them before the murderizing) If Cows and Pigs coulld rise up against us, would they? Would we still eat them?

The orcs dun have access to farmland or animals or proper education that's not orcish tradition. Will you be the one to go against tradition?

[Seil]

Also, Gandalf totally smokes weed. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzmrljnWPXg)

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/tumblr_l0f9lcqOfZ1qz8b1ao1_500.jpg

[Archbio]

If Cows and Pigs coulld rise up against us, would they? Would we still eat them?

If they did rise against us, we wouldn't be the ones doing the eating! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bps-xbo8wnA&t=1m37s)

Seil, your love of the halfling's leaf has clearly slowed your mind.

[phil_]

If Cows and Pigs coulld rise up against us, would they?Yes.Would we still eat them?Yes.Would it be wrong to fight the pig-cow army as a human?No. Homo sapiens is justified in fighting for the non-predation of Homo sapiens, just like pigs and cows are justified in fighting for their own right to freedom of predation. Sometimes, both sides really are justified in their actions. But, in those situations, I'll join with the side that includes my fleshy meat-body and its not being eaten. Not that I would necessarily oppose the pig-cow army if they rose up; just that, for a pig, not opposing the human chow-machine would be stupid.

[Magus]

Might I point out that orcs have built jack shit that wasn't covered in spikes and sharp edges, as well? Like even when they just take stuff over, like Minas Ithil, they tend to convert them into TOWERS OF SORCERY with weird glowy green magic and spikes and stuff (Minas Morgul).

Also while some of the peoples of Middle Earth do appear to languish in a feudal system (only Rohan and Gondor as such really appear to maintain a traditional feudal system--the Elves and Dwarves may have leaders, but they seem to all argue with each other as equals for the most part and tend towards councils. The northern humans tend towards city-states and villages which are fairly democratic with mayors and councils and what have you. They mention a king who's apparently situated somewhere or other [like was he hanging out in Bree, seriously, that is a pretty shitty town] in The Hobbit but he doesn't even collect taxes anymore and by the time of the Lord of the Rings seems to have kicked the bucket), wage slavery is still superior to outright slavery.

[Seil]

Seil, your love of the halfling's leaf has clearly slowed your mind.

Well, that's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7GRFnyyzc4&feature=related) "a rather unfair observation, as [I] have also developed a keen interest in the brewing of ales, and the smoking of pipe-weed. But where [my] heart truly lies is in peace and quiet, and good tilled earth. For all Hobbits share a love of things that grow."

Might I point out that orcs have built jack shit that wasn't covered in spikes and sharp edges, as well? Like even when they just take stuff over, like Minas Ithil, they tend to convert them into TOWERS OF SORCERY with weird glowy green magic and spikes and stuff (Minas Morgul).

I thought Minas Tirith was already a TOWER OF SORCERY?

http://www.tuckborough.net/images/minastirith.jpg

[Marc v4.0]

Minas ITHIL

Also, that is clearly a city

[Archbio]

That's no city, that's a Garden! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFOgm-_FSuk&feature=related)

Quick, someone go down to Minas Ithil's sub-basement level!

[Seil]

Once Sean Bean starts talking (and Will Turner shuts up) does it strike anyone as odd that this is how Modern Politics work? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VhkPJM7WEQ)

(Also, Stephen Harper is a Cave Troll) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi5pdd7xHNI)

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Barglepants,



That's your argument? The other waves after waves after waves of dodgy, innacurate and just plain wrong stuff you brought up are irrelevant?

Fine by me.

Sauron isn't defeated by a River.

He's defeated because the heroes dug the Ring up "for him."

If the Ring stays in the River, or it stays with Gollum, or it stays with Tom Bombadil; Sauron still wins. The other peoples of Middle-earth are all weaker than they used to be, and Sauron is poised to conquer everything through sheer military might. If he never finds the Ring after that, he'll be sure to be spited, and he'll only be a fraction of himself forever... but since everybody else is dead or enslaved I think that counts as a Pyrrhic victory at best.
See they keep saying Sauron is this big threat and he will take everybody over but I don't believe it. Sure you can take over Gondor which is right next door but the world is pretty big and orcs don't seem the most logisitcally orientated people. Like how many orcs are going to volunteer to be on the supply lines, to run messages, to do scouting reports? Sure you can force some of them to but as a race built for combat they will quickly become disheartened with such work and the whole operation will fall apart.
Also Mordor is a fiery wasteland, how will orcs cope with the frozen north?
Classic invasion of Russia scenario here.
Also he's failed like the last 3 times he tried. Sauron can't do shit,
Also when Sauron comes to attack just spray some water on your city and be like "Oh no, you can't get us we're at the bottom of a river". Works every time.

Also Tom Bombadil is not scared. Tom Bombadil is the smartest character around. And he knows Sauron is all talk. Like who you going to listen to, Tom MoFo Bombadil or Gandalf the stoner ?

The Ring being found means that the heroes have their only chance to defeat Sauron once the last opportunity passed at Dol Guldur. And a final defeat this time.

And yes, "Gondor doesn't have a nuclear arsenal to defeat Mordor" is "Tolkien says so."
Textbook strawman that one.


So no, Sauron isn't successful at finding the Ring. However, that doesn't make him an ineffective villain, since he has other objectives for victory and the heroes can only stall him in accomplishing them.
His objective is to breed the biggest orc penis ever.




-Sauron's return is always described as slow and gradual. So calling one point in the process "the resurrection" doesn't ring true.

-Unless it's said in the text when Sauron learns of it, I'm going to be say that's an unknown.

-His troops? He was dead at the time, there's no reason to assume that the orcs understood what had just happened to Isildur (I'd like to see someone write the scene of Sauron briefing trolls and orcs about the magic ring that's the key to all his powers, when he still had it... just in case) and I'm not sure orcs are very big on written history (or any kind of history) or even verbal reports (when their God just went bye bye.) That's just expecting too much of creatures who just really, really like corpses.

-Two minute search at the library? I thought I was exaggerating earlier with the Wikipedia reference and the Gondor National Library.

Ok maybe longer than 2 minutes. Certainly not going to take 1500 years though. I'm pretty sure Gandalf and Saruman didn't spend hundreds of years looking for it in the library.
During this time he had enough presence to be feared as the Necromancer and he had control of troops. That is enough to search.

Also you're still not mentioning the 500 years Gollum was ACTIVELY USING the ring right next door. You couldn't find someone in 500 years?
Frodo could have sat at home for 500 YEARS and evne then Sauron would only just find him.
Like you are missing how collossally incompetent he is. If he finds the ring he basically wins. He has 2000 years to find it, 500 years of which somebody is using it, an act which we are told allows Sauron to see you.
Like holy fuck he is incompetent.
My mind boggles at that level of of fuckuppery.

But we;re not talking about this anymore- we're talking about whether he likes it in the mouth or up the pooper.
His armor has clear mouth holes but probably no pooper holes so I'm suggesting in the mouth.

[Archbio]

Barrel,

Textbook strawman that one.

Not even close.

Suggesting that Gondor has unstoppable armaments stashed somewhere and that they're not using it because they're stupid is quite similar as all the powers you've attributed to Gandalf just to be able to say that he's stupid for not using them.

It occurs to you that it would have been convenient if Gandalf could chat up Isildur before going to Middle-earth, so he could have. Because not doing it when he could have would make him stupid.

Same thing with deciding that Gandalf should be able to reshape the landscape because you sort of remember some of the Powers being described as doing that in a different context. Because not doing it to short circuit the plot would make him stupid.

I mean, putting "atom bomb" in there just takes away the pretext that any of these notions have anything to do with the story. Maybe I should have said that the sun, who's like a spaceship with an elf in it in one of Tolkien's tales about that same world, should have started to bombard Mordor's armies with focused sunbeams.

I mean, that's all in-universe stuff; it's twisted around and interpreted to the extremes in one direction in order to fit a story-breaking notion (and any detail that might invalidated that is just not looked up,) but it's all in-universe stuff. And apparently that's all you need for that supposed interpretation to trump the actual text.

An even more direct (and boring) analogue of what you've been spinning there regarding Gondor's strenght is what you just did:

Also he's failed like the last 3 times he tried.

Like, right there you ignore a basic parameter of the setting (that I just mention in the very bit of my post you quoted:) mainly that everything's going to shit, the elves are fading and the peoples of the alliance that beat Sauron before are weaker than they were... and they're not even all that allied anymore.

Now I suppose that this fact from the text won't count. But the past events in the story that you use to make the point count. Because that's how Sauron looks the stupidest.

The atom bomb exaggeration is minor hyperbole compared to that stuff.

Also when Sauron comes to attack just spray some water on your city and be like "Oh no, you can't get us we're at the bottom of a river". Works every time.

Tiny gold ring. Great River. I mean, it's a shame the english language doesn't have a word for a BIG FUCKING RIVER, unlike french, because that's the kind of river this is.

orcs don't seem the most logisitcally orientated people.

The logistics of orcdom kind of enter the picture before they do any conquering (how big of a population can survive on cave mold or on volcanic ash?,) or they don't enter at all. For realsies, I don't think scientific realism was made for that kind of stuff.

Also you're still not mentioning the 500 years Gollum was ACTIVELY USING the ring right next door.

I'm pretty sure we're suppose to gather, because we're readers trying to willingly suspend our disbelief, that UNDER THE ROOTS OF THE MOUNTAINs means really deep, and that Sauron's awareness is affected by distance and the earth's crust. I mean, that the power of a magic ring would be affected by such factors isn't any more inherently ridiculous than if it wasn't.

Personally, I don't remember exactly how Sauron's awareness is described in the books, and I don't remember what The Lord of the Rings say about Gollum's use of the ring/Sauron. But I'm going to assume your interpretation is more uncharitable than what Tolkien actually came up with.

I'm pretty sure Gandalf and Saruman didn't spend hundreds of years looking for it in the library.

Well, start by putting library in the plural, then take away the filing system and the registry, and imagine that some of those libraries are just literally shelves with books stacked on them.

Then take away modern means of transport, saddle Saruman with a lot of other reading/study interests and Sauron with a need for discretion, no body to do the actual search first hand and servants who are mostly idiots and/or very conspicuous.

I don't know about hundreds of years. But "going to the library" seems like underselling the time that should be spent by far.

Certainly not going to take 1500 years though. I'm pretty sure Gandalf and Saruman didn't spend hundreds of years looking for it in the library.
During this time he had enough presence to be feared as the Necromancer and he had control of troops. That is enough to search.

Well, at the end of the first thousand years he spent in Dol Guldur he was still weak enough to have to "flee before Gandalf." Just Gandalf. To me how the first phase is described sounded more like fucking up the forest's ecosystem with beasts and giant spiders and enchantments. Relatively passive.

Which is fearsome enough. When you have to live near there.

[Azisien]

It took Gandalf about 20 years to confirm Bilbo/Frodo's ring was the One Ring, right? Seemed like weeks/months in the books but I think it was much longer in the books.

Also there's some evidence that density of matter blocks his awareness/control of the Ring, because even when he possessed the One Ring he couldn't control the Dwarves. Presumably because they were far away and deep underground laughing over how much ale and gemstone they had.

[Marc v4.0]

Barrel,



Not even close.

Suggesting that Gondor has unstoppable armaments stashed somewhere and that they're not using it because they're stupid is quite similar as all the powers you've attributed to Gandalf just to be able to say that he's stupid for not using them.

It occurs to you that it would have been convenient if Gandalf could chat up Isildur before going to Middle-earth, so he could have. Because not doing it when he could have would make him stupid.

Same thing with deciding that Gandalf should be able to reshape the landscape because you sort of remember some of the Powers being described as doing that in a different context. Because not doing it to short circuit the plot would make him stupid.

I mean, putting "atom bomb" in there just takes away the pretext that any of these notions have anything to do with the story. Maybe I should have said that the sun, who's like a spaceship with an elf in it in one of Tolkien's tales about that same world, should have started to bombard Mordor's armies with focused sunbeams.

I mean, that's all in-universe stuff; it's twisted around and interpreted to the extremes in one direction in order to fit a story-breaking notion (and any detail that might invalidated that is just not looked up,) but it's all in-universe stuff. And apparently that's all you need for that supposed interpretation to trump the actual text.

An even more direct (and boring) analogue of what you've been spinning there regarding Gondor's strenght is what you just did:



Like, right there you ignore a basic parameter of the setting (that I just mention in the very bit of my post you quoted:) mainly that everything's going to shit, the elves are fading and the peoples of the alliance that beat Sauron before are weaker than they were... and they're not even all that allied anymore.

Now I suppose that this fact from the text won't count. But the past events in the story that you use to make the point count. Because that's how Sauron looks the stupidest.

The atom bomb exaggeration is minor hyperbole compared to that stuff.



Tiny gold ring. Great River. I mean, it's a shame the english language doesn't have a word for a BIG FUCKING RIVER, unlike french, because that's the kind of river this is.



The logistics of orcdom kind of enter the picture before they do any conquering (how big of a population can survive on cave mold or on volcanic ash?,) or they don't enter at all. For realsies, I don't think scientific realism was made for that kind of stuff.



I'm pretty sure we're suppose to gather, because we're readers trying to willingly suspend our disbelief, that UNDER THE ROOTS OF THE MOUNTAINs means really deep, and that Sauron's awareness is affected by distance and the earth's crust. I mean, that the power of a magic ring would be affected by such factors isn't any more inherently ridiculous than if it wasn't.

Personally, I don't remember exactly how Sauron's awareness is described in the books, and I don't remember what The Lord of the Rings say about Gollum's use of the ring/Sauron. But I'm going to assume your interpretation is more uncharitable than what Tolkien actually came up with.



Well, start by putting library in the plural, then take away the filing system and the registry, and imagine that some of those libraries are just literally shelves with books stacked on them.

Then take away modern means of transport, saddle Saruman with a lot of other reading/study interests and Sauron with a need for discretion, no body to do the actual search first hand and servants who are mostly idiots and/or very conspicuous.

I don't know about hundreds of years. But "going to the library" seems like underselling the time that should be spent by far.



Well, at the end of the first thousand years he spent in Dol Guldur he was still weak enough to have to "flee before Gandalf." Just Gandalf. To me how the first phase is described sounded more like fucking up the forest's ecosystem with beasts and giant spiders and enchantments. Relatively passive.

Which is fearsome enough. When you have to live near there.

I really don't think it is worth it at this point, It is rather clear he isn't going to take any of this seriously on purpose, even though he introduced the argument in a serious manner to begin with.

[Meister]

Have you guys considered that a discussion about Lord of the Rings on nuklearforums.com might not be the kind of thing some people, as a rule, take the absolute most serious stance possible on, without any ill intent?

[CABAL49]

Have you guys considered that a discussion about Lord of the Rings on nuklearforums.com might not be the kind of thing some people, as a rule, take the absolute most serious stance possible on, without any ill intent?

This is the internet, serious business is done here.

[Marc v4.0]

I would have considered that if it had been presented as a total goof and not disguised as a serious line of bad reasoning.

Then again, we should have known all things considered

Maybe we shouldn't misrepresent ourselves in order to have a good laugh at running other people through argumentative hoops until they figure out you're just trolling for the sake of it.

[Meister]

Or maybe when someone cracks a joke about how Sauron can't find the One Ring and it's like right there, in a thread on a light entertainment forum that started off with "man Isildur you had one job and you ballsed it up," going all "well actually in the source material I think you'll find" serious literary science on their ass is not entirely the appropriate reaction.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Oh shit Meister is on to me! He's probably in the Stasi!
Abort! Abort!

[Azisien]

Honestly I know the rebuttal is gonna be some kind of "Men need to prove their own strength" type thing but if there's a bullshit part of the movies (I forget how its framed in the books honestly) it's when Isildur is about to drop the Ring, goes "nope.avi" and then Elrond proceeds to LET HIM GO.

Like, what?

I'm a powerful Elf Lord, I'm going to murder you now, and throw the Ring in the fire. It shouldn't corrupt him in the five seconds he needs to touch it to do that. Justification? One human dies, but the largest evil in the world is utterly destroyed until Morgoth returns some day maybe.

What actually happened? Tens of thousands of humans died warring over the Ring, and plenty of elves too. Maybe some off-screen dwarves here and there. Way to go, Elrond.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You forget Elrond and Isildur were butt buddies.

[Geminex]

This conversation was best when if focused on Sauron's love for orc cock.

Edit:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4549162/10368541.jpg
This is pretty good, though.

[POS Industries]

I would have considered that if it had been presented as a total goof and not disguised as a serious line of bad reasoning.
His objective is to breed the biggest orc penis ever.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/posindustries/facepalm/1292484708883.gif

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Fun fact: The Necromancer is an anagram of Orc Trench enema.

[Marc v4.0]

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/posindustries/facepalm/1292484708883.gif

Way to go ignoring everything before that point of obvious "LOL I'm just doing this cause fartzzzz~". No shit after that it became clear it was a continued waste of time to try any serious arguments. Which is why

I really don't think it is worth it at this point, It is rather clear he isn't going to take any of this seriously on purpose, even though he introduced the argument in a serious manner to begin with.



EDIT: FURTHERMORE

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4549162/10388593.jpg

[Seil]

No but seriously Isildur, what the balls.

[Sifright]

Elrond didn't even need to kill him like he could have just bonked him on the head with his sword hilt and been like "INTO THE PIT WITH YOU RING"
And then Sauron was the dead.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

No but seriously Isildur, what the balls.

Nah Isildur was angling to be the new dark lord. But he was more foolish than Sauron and that was his downfall.
For he took headon the most powerful force in Middleearth, a force Sauron knew not to touch.... the river.

[Marc v4.0]

If Orcs had been exclusivly Elf-eaters, no one would have cared.

Just Sayin

[Sifright]

Nah Isildur was angling to be the new dark lord. But he was more foolish than Sauron and that was his downfall.
For he took headon the most powerful force in Middleearth, a force Sauron knew not to touch.... the river.

Can you blame sauron for not taking on the river? The one time he sends his force out to invade the river all his ring wraiths on horseback get blitzed. Rivers a hard counter to everything.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If Orcs had been exclusivly Elf-eaters, no one would have cared.

Just Sayin

Elves are the tofu of middle-earth.

[Fifthfiend]

Have you guys considered that a discussion about Lord of the Rings on nuklearforums.com might not be the kind of thing some people, as a rule, take the absolute most serious stance possible on, without any ill intent?

Or maybe when someone cracks a joke about how Sauron can't find the One Ring and it's like right there, in a thread on a light entertainment forum that started off with "man Isildur you had one job and you ballsed it up," going all "well actually in the source material I think you'll find" serious literary science on their ass is not entirely the appropriate reaction.

Uh no because it's pretty obviously Barrelpants doing the same thing Barrelpants does in every thread, regardless of whether it's about Lord of the Rings or actual real people in prison being executed for grimes they're innocent of, sorry you don't pay enough attention to things to be able to figure that out.

[Seil]

Yeah... Ring-Wraiths apparently dun like water what with the stopping at Buckleberry Ferry and the thing with Arwen at the river and junk...

[Seil]

Uh no because it's pretty obviously Barrelpants doing the same thing Barrelpants does in every thread, regardless of whether it's about Lord of the Rings or actual real people in prison being executed for grimes they're innocent of, sorry you don't pay enough attention to things to be able to figure that out.

Breathe, boys.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Uh no because it's pretty obviously Barrelpants doing the same thing Barrelpants does in every thread, regardless of whether it's about Lord of the Rings or actual real people in prison being executed for grimes they're innocent of, sorry you don't pay enough attention to things to be able to figure that out.

It's not my fault you work for Fox News.

[Marc v4.0]

Elves are the tofu of middle-earth.

Dwarves are Spuds.

[Archbio]

POS and Meister,

Your myth argument makes no sense. Tolkein details everything in great massive pointless details for us. What is the point of that if he wants to portray a more fluid, more open history. His encyclopedic style doesn't serve that goal.

But you're arguing the same points, points that have no relevance to me or the argument I'm making.

Textbook strawman that one.

Oh, that SMBP, such a lighthearted goof! :dance:

Y'know, I thought you all disapproved on calling people out on their trolling, so I thought I'd respond to him like he wasn't trolling, taking his tone at face value. Like, this is LOTR, so his manner of posting wasn't as inflammatory to me as if the thread was about like... Nazis, ancient Greeks or Darwin's deathbead conversion, in which context his manner of posting would be pretty much have been the same, just adjusted a bit.

So I thought I could roll with it while having some fun rehashing fun concepts about Middle-earth stories, calmly and leavening it with humour until the discussion was dropped or an opportunity to steer it away was taken, instead of breaking my keyboard at disinformation about a serious subject. But nope, totally shameful behavior on my part, that.

So, kid gloves with SMBP, I guess.

Ignore him or play along.

Like the supposed gay-jokes. Good, clean fun. Ha, Sauron loves the cock. Like an homosexual man! That's a sure a good, seamless substitute for "stupid" as an insult.

But it's all in good fun. SMBP is drunk! lolololol

Edit:

It's not my fault you work for Fox News.

How kahraaaaaaazy!

Silliness credentials; established!

[Sifright]

I sense some hostility Captain.

http://images.wikia.com/dominion-rpg/images/0/0f/Deanna-Troi.jpg

[shiney]

Tongue in cheek lulzing aside, maybe I should consider instituting an ignore feature? We're not about to ZOMGREPRIMAND SMBP over being non-serious in a non-serious thread, nor reprimand anyone else for being overly serious, I mean from a moderator perspective there's not really any clear resolution apart from potentially affording people the ability to selectively ignore users.

If that's not a good alternative for you lot, considering it would be a universal ignore rather than thread-based, perhaps we will just have to ask people to personally filter out content that they don't appreciate via the human power of "I'm not reading this", until it starts actually breaking rules or w/e. Sorry Arch, SMBP, whomever, etc, but I don't think this is really a "gotta take mod action" situation.

[Krylo]

To add to Shiney's post, the only thing the Mods did agree on in this issue is that it probably doesn't require direct action, and as such Meister and POS's comments don't actually reflect the moderators as a whole and should not be taken as 'moderator' posts but rather as 'user' posts.

I know it is difficult to separate the moderator's actions as users and mods, especially in situations like this and perhaps they should take more care in their posts in such situations, but constantly being held to that standard isn't always easy.

And that's why I'm here saying that. Hopefully it will help smooth any ruffled feathers regarding this.

The official mod stance is as Shiney says. Smarty was being a bit (possibly a lot) annoying, but not in a punishable fashion.

[phil_]

instituting an ignore feature? ... a universal ignore rather than thread-basedBut don't we already...?

http://i51.tinypic.com/2a0hz5u.png

[shiney]

Makes my job easier!!

[Marc v4.0]

I can't even Make a facepalm picture good enough for that one, you win

[shiney]

I don't claim to know every feature! <3

[Fifthfiend]

To add to Shiney's post, the only thing the Mods did agree on in this issue is that it probably doesn't require direct action, and as such Meister and POS's comments don't actually reflect the moderators as a whole and should not be taken as 'moderator' posts but rather as 'user' posts.

I'm pretty sure they should be taken as terrible posts, on account of they were terrible posts.

If we want to say there's nothing that can be done about Smarty then that's fine, afaik nobody was asking for anything to be done about him. It's still ridiculous to pretend it's not Smarty doing the exact same thing he always does and to then have mods singling out other people for responding to his obvious, repetitive trolling.

After-the-fact determinations of userposting vs. modposting regardless.

[Archbio]

If we want to say there's nothing that can be done about Smarty then that's fine, afaik nobody was asking for anything to be done about him.

That's not quite correct.

I did press the report button on one of the later SMBP posts. I didn't actually expect mod action, the "no trolling" rule that's still in the rules section having gone unenforced for a long while, but it's the principle of the thing.

Lets just say I was unpleasantly surprised by the result of that mistake.

[Magus]

Actually to invade the northern climes Sauron was using half-orcs like Bill Ferny's buddies hanging out in Bree to infiltrate the towns and destroy them from within. This is why Saruman is able to take over Hobbiton in the final book.

I recommend this be used by Smarty as proof that Tokein is a miscegenist so we may have even more good times.

[Fifthfiend]

That's not quite correct.

I did press the report button on one of the later SMBP posts. I didn't actually expect mod action, the "no trolling" rule still in the rules section having gone unenforced for a long while, but it's the principle of the thing.

Lets just say I was unpleasantly surprised by the result of that mistake.

Oh jeez, well.

Then yeah I just don't even.

[POS Industries]

That's not quite correct.

I did press the report button on one of the later SMBP posts. I didn't actually expect mod action, the "no trolling" rule that's still in the rules section having gone unenforced for a long while, but it's the principle of the thing.

Lets just say I was unpleasantly surprised by the result of that mistake.
Thing is, we don't actually get a lot of reports about trolling. This is not to say that there isn't any trolling going on so much as that we (or, more specifically, I) are not being made aware of it, which means that not a whole lot can be done about the situation since I, for one, do not read every thread on the forums.

Personally speaking, what I can see is the extent of my authority, and if I don't manage to see something, I can't address it. On top of that, if no one tells me that another user's behavior is pissing them off, then odds are I'm not going to know that it is even if I do happen to see the offending post in question.

And that's what happened in this case, as on the surface it quite honestly looks like the both of you are in on the joke, as I assumed that the openly hostile attitude you were displaying from the point of your very first post in this thread implied you were being facetious toward his obviously silly argument. It had never occurred to me that a person could even be trolled in a discussion about orcs, hobbits, and magical rings.

However, this was, at its inception, intended to be a silly thread, and I can't in good conscience punish someone for being silly in a silly thread, with the exception of spam or going off-topic.

But please, by all means, if anyone were to behave in this manner in a thread where it's not appropriate, I encourage you to hit that report button as hard as you can so we (once again, I) can actually deal with the problem.

[rpgdemon]

To add to Shiney's post, the only thing the Mods did agree on in this issue is that it probably doesn't require direct action, and as such Meister and POS's comments don't actually reflect the moderators as a whole and should not be taken as 'moderator' posts but rather as 'user' posts.

I know it is difficult to separate the moderator's actions as users and mods, especially in situations like this and perhaps they should take more care in their posts in such situations, but constantly being held to that standard isn't always easy.

And that's why I'm here saying that. Hopefully it will help smooth any ruffled feathers regarding this.

The official mod stance is as Shiney says. Smarty was being a bit (possibly a lot) annoying, but not in a punishable fashion.

Isn't that what mod-text is for? Differentiating between moderating comments, and not-moderating comments?

[shiney]

Not all mods use it, unfortunately. It's...

http://www.idsnews.com/blogs/weekendwatchers/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/psych.jpg
"It's a process."

[Seil]

I still love you, Mr. Barrel Hater.

[Solid Snake]

Also when Sauron comes to attack just spray some water on your city and be like "Oh no, you can't get us we're at the bottom of a river". Works every time.

While I will not defend everything Smarty's ever done or whatever the fuck this thread has become, I just want to respond to this one line because I was reading it while in my Professional Responsibility class and nearly burst out laughing while my professor was lecturing upon reading it

I mean whatever you want to say against Smarty, that was a fucking awesome line.
(But it's kind of hard to assume Smarty was being remotely serious upon reading that)

[Fifthfiend]

Thing is, we don't actually get a lot of reports about trolling.

Have you guys considered that a discussion about Lord of the Rings on nuklearforums.com might not be the kind of thing some people, as a rule, take the absolute most serious stance possible on, without any ill intent?

Or maybe when someone cracks a joke about how Sauron can't find the One Ring and it's like right there, in a thread on a light entertainment forum that started off with "man Isildur you had one job and you ballsed it up," going all "well actually in the source material I think you'll find" serious literary science on their ass is not entirely the appropriate reaction.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/posindustries/facepalm/1292484708883.gif

.

[Archbio]

Thing is, we don't actually get a lot of reports about trolling.

I think this thread is a good demonstration why.

At least, it's a good demonstration why I hadn't used the reporte function before now. Using the report button caused moderators to descend on the thread and essentially call me out.

I thought that could happen, but in the context of a heated discussion, where there's this one poster who's crossing the line pretty hard, but everyone else is hewing pretty close to it, possibly as a reaction. So it occured to me that a Mod could come, declare everybody equally in the wrong... or worse.

In any case, the discussion's dead, and the person who possibly wanted most to see it disrupted wins because... it certainly is disrupted.

I didn't think it could happen this time, if only for the reason that where ever the infraction line is, I'm confident SMBP is standing between it and me. But it did happen.

I guess reporting a post would be unproblematic in a situation like if some random user randomly started using racist language out of any context so that no one is interacting with them at the time. Generally trolling and flaming doesn't happen under a belljar, though.

A Moderation policy that relies on reporting posts seems like a recipe for all or nothing.


And that's what happened in this case, as on the surface it quite honestly looks like the both of you are in on the joke, as I assumed that the openly hostile attitude you were displaying from the point of your very first post in this thread implied you were being facetious toward his obviously silly argument. It had never occurred to me that a person could even be trolled in a discussion about orcs, hobbits, and magical rings.

I was in on it, but I don't think it qualifies as a joke. I'm surprised someone can look at SMBP's series of posts and see someone trying mainly to provide comic effect to other people. Or do you think an argument about Tolkien's literary style (which I ignored as being irrelevant and esoteric, and I get called the "inappropriately serious" one) is an underrated comedy device?

We all know that appending posts which seem to have as their main point degrading a fictional character with crude references to that character engaging in male-on-male(orc) sex act (like there's no direct relation between both) went over great here as comedy, so I won't belabour that.

[POS Industries]

.
But we really don't. We should, but we don't. Let's take Smarty, for instance. In the past year, he has only been reported five times. Two of them were joke reports (one of them was by you, incidentally). Of the ones that were serious, one was for the one time in history where Smarty was actually being straightforward, reasonable, and objectively correct in presenting his case, another was this one, and the third actually was him being an unhelpful douchebag.

And the one that was totally and unequivocally legit was from December.

I'm willing to believe that maybe a bunch more people were reporting posts back in the good ol' days when you were a mod, but for whatever reason it's not the case now.

I think this thread is a good demonstration why.

At least, it's a good demonstration why I hadn't used the reporte function before now. Using the report button caused moderators to descend on the thread and essentially call me out.
I will admit, there have been a great many SMB posts you could have chosen to report that would have had a better result for you than this one, but this is really more of an outlier case in the overall statistic.

The majority of what reports we do receive don't result in coming down against the reporter though, for what it's worth, and I really do hope you make greater use of the feature in the future. It would be a big help. It doesn't even have to be about something you're involved with!

A Moderation policy that relies on reporting posts seems like a recipe for all or nothing.
It's not really an official staff policy by any means. If we see something that is obviously over of line or a big argument getting out of hand, we are actually supposed to deal with it, and it's quite apparent that we've been dropping the ball in that regard and I, for one, offer my apologies.

[Fifthfiend]

The majority of what reports we do receive don't result in coming down against the reporter though

Thing is, we don't actually get a lot of reports about trolling.

Jesus this really isn't very hard to work out.

You don't get a lot of reports about shit like this because it's obvious that you respond to reports about shit like this with shit like your and meister's posts in this thread.

You don't respond to a lot of reports with shit like you and Meister pulled in this thread because people don't bother to report the kind of shit that was in this thread, because they know how you're going to respond to this.

I'll leave how exactly people inexplicably worked out in advance that you'd respond to things like this in the manner which you, y'know... have, as an exercise for the reader.

[Marc v4.0]

For what it is worth, I wasn't "In" on the "joke" because I can't tell when Smarty is "Joking" or just making absolutly terrible arguments as usual and I really don't like trolling as a form of getting my gufaws off cause it really isn't funny at all.

[POS Industries]

Jesus this really isn't very hard to work out.

You don't get a lot of reports about shit like this because it's obvious that you respond to reports about shit like this with shit like your and meister's posts in this thread.

You don't respond to a lot of reports with shit like you and Meister pulled in this thread because people don't bother to report the kind of shit that was in this thread, because they know how you're going to respond to this.

I'll leave how exactly people inexplicably worked out in advance that you'd respond to things like this in the manner which you, y'know... have, as an exercise for the reader.
Which would be great if this were the only post reported for "shit like this" that had this result since I got the job. I mean, I'm told that all I ever do around here is be a jackass to people who report posts but apparently I'm having trouble distinguishing between the times I do that while "on duty" and the rest of the time when I'm a jackass normally.

It kind of all blends together.

[Seil]

Guys, chill for a sec, or take it to PMs. I don't think we need to see this. You're the mods, in that position because the community respects you. For chrissakes, we're all long standing members here, can't we argue something while acting in a dignified manor?

Now we've probably, what, driven BHS out in a thread I made while thrashed? If he has left, because of the way all parties are handling this, I might just follow.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Nah I just found it pretty hilarious when the only reason I started getting more and more ridiculous with my posts was that the counterposts didn't ever address the point I was actually arguing but a completely tangential argument on points that I wasn't addressing and did so in a hilarious wall of text manner. I thought we were doing a straightman/funny man doubleact because their posts were equally ridiculous.
But then the other half of our classic act wrote a tell-all book shattering the illusion and all is ruined, no more will the audience buy into the dream, the theatre of disbelief is dead, the age of reason is at hand.

But anyway...
So them Balrogs. They sure like them wings.

[synkr0nized]

It seems I should really read The Silmarillion. The mythos in it seems interesting.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Silmarillion is actually not bad. I didn't really like Lord of the Rings that much but Silmarillion was enjoyable. Its basically like reading a fake set of myths though, you not going to get like a typical novel and character structure but if you're down with what its trying to do its really intersting.

[rpgdemon]

Which would be great if this were the only post reported for "shit like this" that had this result since I got the job. I mean, I'm told that all I ever do around here is be a jackass to people who report posts but apparently I'm having trouble distinguishing between the times I do that while "on duty" and the rest of the time when I'm a jackass normally.

It kind of all blends together.

Mod text.

You can't really blame the users for your own misuse or lack of use of a tool that clarifies this.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Silmarillion is actually not bad. I didn't really like Lord of the Rings that much but Silmarillion was enjoyable. Its basically like reading a fake set of myths though, you not going to get like a typical novel and character structure but if you're down with what its trying to do its really intersting.

I hate to say this but I actually agree with Smarty on this. While I can appreciate the trilogy for what it does, pretty much every single thing in Tolkien's works is far more interesting than the Lord of the Rings trilogy, at least to me.

In the Silmarillion, you have shit

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/MrBookworm/Ungoliant_and_Melkor_by_rubendevela.jpg?t=13177328 56

like

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g152/MrBookworm/Dragon_of_the_First_Age_by_rubendevela.jpg?t=13177 32903

this happening all of the damn time, and the epicness of it all in compared to the original trilogy kind of ruins it for me.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well my problem with LotR is the awful writing style which just turns me off completely whereas in the Silmarillion it meshes better with the subject matter and is less jarring.

[Token]

Well my problem with LotR is the awful writing style which just turns me off completely whereas in the Silmarillion it meshes better with the subject matter and is less jarring.

I can get behind this, sort of. Haven't read the Silmarillon because I couldn't bring myself to get through LotR. Finished Two Towers, but when I opened the third one I realized I couldn't bring myself to care. I enjoyed the Hobbit, and could get invested in it, but I couldn't bring myself to give a flying fuck about anyone in two books of LotR, and I doubt the third would change that. Tolkien may be a good writer, but, in my opinion, he is a horrible storyteller.

[Ecks]

It doesn't help that I read the books before the movies came out. Massive walls of encyclopedic knowledge, and I'm a freaking speed reader at that, only taking in snippets that have actual relevance. So I tend to miss shit.

Then Jackson does his thing, and then reworks it for the extended editions (holy FUCK the amount of sticking more to Tolkien lore THOSE do), and I go back and read it and it starts to be more "Okay" than "Jesus get to the point already."

Silmarillion though, man, how does a guy write backstory better than his actual story?

Because Christopher is a better writer than John was.

[Azisien]

He must be poking fun at biblical times. All the cool shit happens way back before LOTR, so people in the Third Age are all like "man, flying Nazgul is cool I GUESS, but remember the good old days?"

And then no one does, because it was like 10000 years earlier. Even Super Saiyan Gandalf can, what? Shoot a bit of light at Nazgul every so often?

[Ecks]

The only people alive from the good old days are Glorfindel and Galadriel (possibly others, memory is fuzzy on this).

[Professor Smarmiarty]

All I learnt from the Simarillion is that the Valar are massive dickheads.

[synkr0nized]

Because Christopher is a better writer than John was.

That's not really fair, as it was my understanding all of that information was written down and planned out by Tolkien before he even set out to tell the trilogy. Unless his son re-worked it extensively?

[Magus]

I think they are referring to Christopher Tolkein's writing style, which is kind of faux-mythic, but who knows if J.R.R. didn't write it down that way for the most part? Christopher has only ever considered himself an editor, I don't think he's overly responsible for the use of poetic language in the Silmarillion...then again I haven't read the 12 volume, 30,000 page thing he wrote ABOUT WRITING the Silmarillion/Children of Hurin/Lord of the Rings, even wanting to is somewhat incomprehensible to me, like someone else felt about reading Return of the King, so I mean someone who's actually read those tomes may be able to set me straight...

@Smarty: The Valar are isolationist jerks, as I mentioned. They come off as pretty selfish and self-centered since they refuse to help out in the war against Morgoth, THEIR OWN FORMER BUDDY, until he gets so powerful they're like "Oh, uh, maybe he'll start attacking us now?" I mean, never mind the fact he ALREADY PULLED A SNEAK ATTACK ON THEIR HOMELAND THAT DESTROYED THE GREAT TREES AND PLUNGED THE WORLD INTO TWILIGHT AND MURDERED FINWE STEALING THE MAGIC SILMARIL ORBS, CAUSING UNTOLD SORROW AND DESPAIR FOR GENERATIONS. But y'know we'll give him a few more thousand years to wreak havoc before getting involved and throwing him out the Door of Night.

I mean they can't even be half-assed to actually destroy him, that'll be up to Turin after ANOTHER gigantic ass war involving him when he breaks free.

[RickZarber]

GOD DAMMIT. I just spent more than an hour typing up a nicely succinct and neophyte-friendly summation of the History of Middle-Earth and its relationship to the published Silmarillion, and then I HIT THE FUCKING BACK BUTTON AND LOST IT ALL. Time to start over. :(

I think they are referring to Christopher Tolkein's writing style, which is kind of faux-mythic, but who knows if J.R.R. didn't write it down that way for the most part? Christopher has only ever considered himself an editor, I don't think he's overly responsible for the use of poetic language in the Silmarillion...then again I haven't read the 12 volume, 30,000 page thing he wrote ABOUT WRITING the Silmarillion/Children of Hurin/Lord of the Rings, even wanting to is somewhat incomprehensible to me, like someone else felt about reading Return of the King, so I mean someone who's actually read those tomes may be able to set me straight...


Anyways, the upshot was that the Silmarillion, as published, is a bit of a faux text--drawn from all of Tolkien's work on the tales throughout his lifetime. The only version of the story which was completed from beginning to end, the Quenta Nolderinwa, was written in the 1930s, just before The Hobbit. And that was simply an expanded version of Tolkien's Sketch of the Mythology (c.1926), which he wrote to accompany the Epic Poem versions of two of the three Great Tales* from the Book of Lost Tales (the original version of the myths, written from 1918-20s). He never wrote out everything in full length ever again, but just kept updating the Quenta and the Annals of Beleriand (his Tale of Years chronology which was developed simultaneously).

It didn't help that the Hobbit was so successful; the publishers clamored for a sequel, and Tolkien spent the next 15 years writing the Lord of the Rings. But that required not only the creation of that story, but also the whole history of the Second and Third ages (for they had never existed previously--even the Hobbit was originally only tangentially related to the tales of the Elder Days). After the publication of LotR, he started on several full-length prose versions of the Great Tales, but none were ever brought to completion, for Tolkien had a habit of starting every new revision from the beginning.

So basically, by the time of his death, he'd greatly altered the cosmology of the opening "myths" (his interests having shifted from mythology to religious philosophy), and had pretty much finalized the first half of what we consider the Silmarillion, but the only version of the end of the story came from the 1930s Quenta.

So the published Silmarillion actually is a mash-up of all the latest extant versions of the material--some drawn from the Quenta, some from the Annals, some from prose texts--with an editorial eye towards keeping out contradictions. But it is still just a summation.

The only long-form prose version we have is the Great Tale that Christopher Tolkien decided was complete enough to publish: the Children of Húrin. And even that required quite a bit of taking bits from other sources to make it continuous.

* The Great Tales are the Lay of Leithian (the tale of Beren and Lúthien), the Narn i Chîn Húrin (the tale of the children of Húrin), and the Fall of Gondolin.

[Archbio]

Honestly, while I prefer The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings, I remember some of the Silmarillion being like the first fourty seconds of that. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBqe5xvYnNc)

Some of it is pretty fluid, with dialogue and events and such... but I think rythm really should count for something and some of it is pretty ackward even by Tolkien standard.

I think the Valar are supposed to be unwilling to fight Morgoth directly again in Middle-earth to avoid wrecking the place and killing the Men when they're still dormant somewhere unknown.

[Magus]

Well they did destroy like a good sixth of the continent in the War of Wrath but they could have done that earlier and saved thousands of lives. Plus Sauron also destroyed some more of the landmass too when he corrupted the Numenoreans before the War of the Last Alliance banished him for a while, again killing thousands of people. Seems like they might as well have got it over with sooner than later, but I guess the mortals did manage to take Sauron out without too much of their help so all's well that ends well! Except for the thousands more who were slain in the War of the Ring, I mean...

[Archbio]

Isn't the War of Wrath mostly fought by elves sent by the Valar from Valinor and stuff?

But yeah, even then, waiting for Morgoth to beat everybody else (and make a hill out of the corpses of his enemies at one point) and for someone to come to them to plead for intervention before doing that really doesn't speak highly of their priorities.

[Magus]

Yeah that was my point they saved the day...way after there was much left saving.

Of course the Noldor did kind of piss everybody off with their kinslaying before heading out for Middle-Earth so that was probably factoring into their decision. Like even after they are kind enough to defeat Morgoth and save everybody and retake the Silmarils that Oath of Feanor still causes two of his sons to steal the things from Eonwe and lose them like assholes cause they did so much evil shit to retake the things in the past that they can't even touch them without causing themselves searing pain. So maybe the Valar had to be convinced that the Noldor were worth saving from Morgoth.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

The Children of Hurin was the shit. Totally engrossing tragedy from start to finish.

I feel like once the Hobbit films have all been released, the studio will move towards adapting stories from the Silmarillion in tv miniseries one channels like HBO. It's the only way to really adapt any of the Silmarillion without losing significant context the informs each and every story.

[Magus]

I'd love that, though if I understand correctly there are three main stories that Christopher Tolkein wanted to do detailed versions of so maybe they could do three big budget movies? But then again Children of Hurin has a little too much murder, incest, and main characters all dying to appeal to mainstream movie audiences...wait, it's pretty much just like Game of Thrones, this is a nobrainer for HBO!

[RickZarber]

Except nobody will ever wrest the rights away from the Tolkien Estate. You know they'd take back LotR and Hobbit if they could; Tolkien only sold those rights to help pay off his wife's medical bills.

though if I understand correctly there are three main stories that Christopher Tolkein wanted to do detailed versions ofNot exactly. The other two Great Tales (Beren and Lúthien, Fall of Gondolin) don't exist in long-form prose in any amount that covers the whole story. I don't know how far Lúthien goes, but the prose Gondolin only gets as far as Túor coming through the seven gates. So there will probably never be stand-alone publications of those.