Fall of Anime 2011 - The Threadening

[Kim]

It's fall anime time, so let's chat about what's airing right now.

Mawaru Penguindrum is still airing and fantastic. We've finally got our main villain, the fabulous Dr Sanetoshi, who is actually more of a decent person than most of the rest of the cast it seems. He even visited Himari in the hospital.

Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon sounded like an interesting mindfuck show but seems more interested in being stupid wacky fanservicey animu bullshit, so fuck that show. Also, one of the characters is an unbelievably racist caricature so seriously FUCK THAT SHOW.

I watched the first episode of Hunter x Hunter, and it seems like it should be pretty decent shonen fun. By the same guy who made Yu Yu Hakusho, which I've always heard good things about, so I'm interested.

I watched the first episode of the Persona 4 anime, and while the art and animation seem a bit dodgy from time to time, and it's incredibly rushed, I thought it was pretty decent. Unfortunately, it sounds like the company making it is screwing over all their employees like hella, so don't be surprised if it gets cancelled or really shitty by the end.

Un-Go seems interesting, but I really need to see more to make a value judgment. It's about detectiving Sherlock style, so I'm giving it a chance, and the first episode wasn't bad, so we'll see how it turns out.

[Solid Snake]

I watched the first episode of the Persona 4 anime, and while the art and animation seem a bit dodgy from time to time, and it's incredibly rushed, I thought it was pretty decent. Unfortunately, it sounds like the company making it is screwing over all their employees like hella, so don't be surprised if it gets cancelled or really shitty by the end.


Damn it all.
I've waited for you before starting the second episode, but honestly, I'm kind of hoping the second episode deviates a bit more from the videogame's script compared to the first. So far, the lack of inclusion of any new scenes or dialogue or unique information is the one thing that's sort of holding me back from fully endorsing the show. I mean I know that most of the P4 anime should follow most of the game to the letter, but it'd be nice to throw in new material to entice people who've already played the game before.

...And I kind of want to see the main character fleshed out to the point where his personality may actually contrast from other's perceptions of him, like it'd be cool if this version of the main character actually had a specific canon love interest and specific canon preferences in the friends he hangs out with, etc.

EDIT: For what it's worth: While it still isn't perfect, the second episode is a fairly significant improvement over the first.

[Kim]

New ep was aces for the punch alone. Good fun.

Also: Just realized the heavy use of trains in Mawaru Penguindrum is a metaphor for fate and GODDAMN why didn't I see that before?

[Donomni]

Unfortunately, it sounds like the company making it is screwing over all their employees like hella, so don't be surprised if it gets cancelled or really shitty by the end.

Seriously? I thought that was a bad image board rumor.

But if that's really the case... goddammit.

One of the few shows I'm willing to see subbed, and this might happen to it. Bluh bluh, etc.

[Kim]

Ahahaha oh my God you guys Guilty Crown.

It's like a company trying to make a new Code Geass, and it succeeds.

And by succeeds I mean Goddamn this show is so stupid.

[Eltargrim]

Penguindrum is the best show of the season, and basically the only thing I have time to watch.

This saddens me.

[Kim]

Watched the first episode of Ben-To. It's stupid, but it knows its stupid. Normally that plays in something's favor, but it's otherwise very generic feeling, so it's just kind of an okay show where the stupidity doesn't really detract. It's just there.

[phil_]

Dr Sanetoshi is actually more of a decent person than most of the rest of the cast it seemsHe's holding out on giving Himari the medicine she needs until Kanba pays him a ridiculous amount of money. He doesn't even want the money, he just wants Kanba to suffer. That's just the concrete stuff; personal speculation as to his motives write him, to me, as the biggest asshole in the series.

He was stylin' in those scarves, though.

I'm gonna give Guilty Crown a few more episodes before I judge it. Maybe they were just getting all the stupid crap demanded by this story archetype out of the way in the first episode, kinda like Milky Holmes but not funny.

Chihayafuru is two episodes in. It's about karuta, which is a Japanese card-slapping game, except it's not about that at all because it's about relationships because all shoujo is about relationships. I like it. I don't like explaining why I like things.

Fate/Zero is Fate/Stay-Night written by Urobuchi and starring adults. It is my favorite show right now, even if it is largely talktalktalktalktalk. It's fun, I guess. Awful things happen.

Persona 4 is my "silly characters fight things" show right now, and it functions well enough as such.

Ika-Musume has a second season. It's the same as the first.

I thought about watching Un-Go, but the screenshots I've seen look so plain that I lost interest. Let me know if that was a mistake.

And, finally, there's a new Last Exile series. I marathoned the first series one weekend in September to refresh my memory, and I'm totally gonna watch the new one, even though I know almost nothing about it.

No, no the final "finally" is I miss Tiger and Bunny. That was a fun show.

[Kim]

Oh yeah. I also watched the first episode of Mirai Nikki, which was pretty rad. Will watch more.

ALSO

It seems Snake has come down with a case of the ~animes~ so we're probably going to watch some Bleach or something while hanging out in NPF chat tomorrow night. 9pm Eastern/6pm Pacific time if you want to join in. Should be fun. Gonna make him watch at least until Don Kanonji shows up.

SPIRITS! ARE ALWAAAAAYS! WITH YOOOOOOOU!

[Solid Snake]

NONE OF YOU EVER TOLD ME HOW AWESOME THE BLEACH SOUNDTRACK WAS

I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED IN ALL OF YOU

[Kim]

Yeah, I forgot how badass the music is.

[phil_]

Oh yeah. I also watched the first episode of Mirai Nikki, which was pretty rad. Will watch more.Quick question, have you read Mirai Nikki? 'Cause I've read Mirai Nikki. I ain't watching Mirai Nikki.

[Fifthfiend]

NONE OF YOU EVER TOLD ME HOW AWESOME THE BLEACH SOUNDTRACK WAS

I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED IN ALL OF YOU

The problem with the Bleach soundtrack is that listening to it results in you watching Bleach.

Then after a while you've gotten a bit bored with the soundtrack but for some inexplicable reason you're still watching Bleach.

Then you start READING Bleach which doesn't even have a soundtrack for you to listen to.

Then you're one of the people posting in the Bleach thread.

You're seeing exclusion where there was only mercy.

[Bells]

It's the 3rd year in a row that i'm the one to post this thing (i think...?)

http://mangaweekend.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/neregate-com-fall-2011-anime-v2.jpg

BTW, i'm Watching Gundam AGE and it's not Bad... really. It's lighter (it IS aimed at a younger Audience...) but it's not silly or stupid, it's actually worth a go.


...even if it has a Space Neko with a Neko Mobile Suit.

[Locke cole]

Last Exile sounds pretty boss, from that description. Anyone here seen any of it?

And on Guilty Crown: do they explain what determines what items he can extract from which people?

[phil_]

Last Exile sounds pretty boss, from that description. Anyone here seen any of it?Just watched the first episode. It's pretty and moves nicely. The voices are good to very good. Range Murata's designs come through much better than in the first series. If they can continue to avoid the serial derp-face of the first series, this is gonna be amazing to look at.

The bad: we already have almost 15 named characters, and Dio's presence confuses me and pulls me out of the moment. Oh, and the first five seconds will make you not want to watch it with your mom.

I'm still pumped, though.And on Guilty Crown: do they explain what determines what items he can extract from which people?He pulls out weapons. That's the premise.

Er, not that they've explained that, in show. They haven't explained shit yet.

[synkr0nized]

And, finally, there's a new Last Exile series.

This is [potentially welcome] news to me. I will have to give it a look.

[phil_]

This is [potentially welcome] news to me. I will have to give it a look.Ok, just, you know, give it until after the opening song before you close the window in disgust. I think that scene was there because Murata won't draw cute girls unless they're going to be in a state of undress at some point.

Also, the opening isn't as good as Cloud Age Symphony, but then what is?

[Kyanbu The Legend]

It's the 3rd year in a row that i'm the one to post this thing (i think...?)

http://mangaweekend.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/neregate-com-fall-2011-anime-v2.jpg

BTW, i'm Watching Gundam AGE and it's not Bad... really. It's lighter (it IS aimed at a younger Audience...) but it's not silly or stupid, it's actually worth a go.


...even if it has a Space Neko with a Neko Mobile Suit.

It has a what now?

Why...

Still gonna watch it though.

[Locke cole]

It can't be any goofier than G or SD.

[Kim]

First night of Bleach watching in NPF chat went well. We watched the first three episodes, and we're going to watch more tomorrow it sounds like. Should be fun!

[Grimpond]

First night of Bleach watching in NPF chat went well. We watched the first three episodes, and we're going to watch more tomorrow it sounds like. Should be fun!

whaaaaaaaaaat, that sounds fun.

[Kim]

whaaaaaaaaaat, that sounds fun.

Feel free to join us. Tomorrow we're starting at 10pm Eastern, 7pm Pacific.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

It can't be any goofier than G or SD.

Yeah but G Gundam was also multiple shades of manliness

Seriously it deserves a movie and or sequal.

[Jagos]

I'm just going to put this here (http://www.wired.com/underwire/2011/10/x-men-anime-2/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Ind ex+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29)...

With a blurb like so...

In Wired.com’s second exclusive peek at debut episode “The Return,” Wolverine and Cyclops battle for primacy and purpose after the mysterious loss of X-men teammate Jean Grey, whose incendiary powers incinerated everything within range in last week’s clip. It’s much more impressive than the throw-downs in Bryan Singer’s tepid X-Men blockbuster films, or even the mostly amazing animated series Wolverine and the X-Men.

Most of the credit goes to Japanese anime dynamo ]b]Madhouse[/b]. The Tokyo-based production company has parleyed the success of amazing features like Ninja Scroll and Metropolis, as well as impressive franchise spinoffs like The Animatrix and Batman: Gotham Knight, into a slate of Marvel reboots that also include Iron Man, Wolverine and Blade.

Animation: slick

Story: Do want to see.

Wait time: 3 days.

[Bells]

It has a what now?

Why...

Still gonna watch it though.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ssYtyQdkZRg/TkQqFbL8SKI/AAAAAAAA_pM/IYqBliyLYh0/s1600/a.jpg

And later on, he changes suit to this More Advance G-EXES, or, "Nyandan" as i like to call it

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h69US-_xV4g/TpmRrJdZnUI/AAAAAAABLYM/HA-O5rvaRRc/s640/2.jpg

It can't be any goofier than G or SD.

By Episode 2 it's explained that the Gundam's DOTS Rifle is Super powerfull because it can bend the energy to shoot it spinning like a drill.

2 episodes in and it's channeling Gurren Lagann Shenanigans... i like it.

Also, the AGE System is a Super Builder that analyzes enemy data and can build Equipment on the go made to defeat said enemy. It made the DOT's Rifle in minutes (a Huge beam Rifle... in space)

Also, Flit Asuno (The main character) is pretty much a 14 year old Military engineer that designed and built the Gundam, and since it's a 50 episodes series spanning 100 years and 3 generations, it means that by Episode 12-15 he is going to get someone Pregnant.

...yeah, i'm watching it alright.

[Magni]

I watched the first episode of Guilty Crown, which colored me intrigued to keep following it.

Plus there's Fate/Zero, sequel to Fate/Stay Night which of course will be good.

[Kim]

Party chat was two episodes tonight. We watched episodes 4 and 5, which are about how Chad is the coolest. Same time tomorrow night for episode 6 and maybe 7 it sounds like.

[Solid Snake]

Yup, we watched 6 and 7 last night and tonight we'll be watching episode 8 and possibly episode 9 starting at 10:30pm EST.

Please be aware of the fact that literally everything after episode 7 constitutes a spoiler for me and I'd appreciate not being excessively spoilered. Vague hints and cryptic ambiguous statements are fine, anything more concrete will make Snake a sad Snake.

(The obvious exception to the rule is stuff I should know by episode 7 but that I perceive to be spoilers due to a general lack of knowledge of Bleach and the fact that I'm probably not paying as close attention to certain snippets of dialogue as I should be. Hey, it's not like you intuitively understood what the hell was going on after seven episodes either. And I'm deliberately avoiding researching Bleach on the interwebs to get my answers, as the likelihood of being accidentally spoilered seems quite high.)

[Kim]

I will warn Snake that episode 10 has one of my favorite characters in the whole show so I may try and be all, "Come on... Just one more episode!" Even if you don't like Bleach, so long as you're willing to not spoil ANYTHING, feel free to join in. Bleach Party Chat is actually proving really fun, and even if we stop keeping up with Bleach, I'd really like to make watching shows in NPF chat a regular thing.

[Donomni]

Same here. We could always do the P4 anime eventually(After the godfuck knows how many Bleach episodes that aren't even filler), where we can all discuss the meaningful contributions of the character known as Yosuke's Ass.

[Fifthfiend]

(The obvious exception to the rule is stuff I should know by episode 7 but that I perceive to be spoilers due to a general lack of knowledge of Bleach and the fact that I'm probably not paying as close attention to certain snippets of dialogue as I should be. Hey, it's not like you intuitively understood what the hell was going on after seven episodes either. And I'm deliberately avoiding researching Bleach on the interwebs to get my answers, as the likelihood of being accidentally spoilered seems quite high.)

Translation: He had no idea that Rukia is a dead person, from dead-people land.

[Solid Snake]

Translation: He had no idea that Rukia is a dead person, from dead-people land.

There are many other possible alternative explanations! The Soul Society could have been like the Ghostbusters!

[Kim]

hahaha I kinda wish this was the case now.

[synkr0nized]

[...] I'd really like to make watching shows in NPF chat a regular thing.

Yes, please.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ssYtyQdkZRg/TkQqFbL8SKI/AAAAAAAA_pM/IYqBliyLYh0/s1600/a.jpg

And later on, he changes suit to this More Advance G-EXES, or, "Nyandan" as i like to call it

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-h69US-_xV4g/TpmRrJdZnUI/AAAAAAABLYM/HA-O5rvaRRc/s640/2.jpg



By Episode 2 it's explained that the Gundam's DOTS Rifle is Super powerfull because it can bend the energy to shoot it spinning like a drill.

2 episodes in and it's channeling Gurren Lagann Shenanigans... i like it.

Also, the AGE System is a Super Builder that analyzes enemy data and can build Equipment on the go made to defeat said enemy. It made the DOT's Rifle in minutes (a Huge beam Rifle... in space)

Also, Flit Asuno (The main character) is pretty much a 14 year old Military engineer that designed and built the Gundam, and since it's a 50 episodes series spanning 100 years and 3 generations, it means that by Episode 12-15 he is going to get someone Pregnant.

...yeah, i'm watching it alright.

You already had me sold at neko mobile suit.

[Gregness]

Yes, please.

After Bleach can we try and find a dubbed show to do? Regardless on your stance re: dubs vs. subs, it's kind of a pain in the ass to read subs AND keep up with the chat.

EDIT: Alternately, we could do an NPF anime viewing Skype session.

[Kim]

I'd be cool with that. Snake hasn't seen Cowboy Bebop nor Baccano!, so either of those would be fantastic shows for it.

That said, Bleach is LONG, so unless we decide to take breaks from Bleach after major plot arcs, I don't know when we'll get around to it.

[Donomni]

And that's when we don't watch filler(Although since we all saw episode 10, any filler with Don Kanonji in it is must-see).

[Kim]

Episode 10 isn't filler! It's legit! He's an important character!

[Solid Snake]

After Bleach can we try and find a dubbed show to do? Regardless on your stance re: dubs vs. subs, it's kind of a pain in the ass to read subs AND keep up with the chat.


An acquaintance of mine recently told me he disowned me when I confessed I'd never watched Cowboy Bebop, so the answer to this question is probably "Yes."

I'm still interested in getting much further in Bleach, though, and will probably continue to feel that way so long as we're still watching solid episodes.

EDIT: Just watched the third episode of the P4 anime with Liz and Grim. I'm glad to see whatever ills befalling the show's production haven't hindered the show's upward trajectory in quality.

[Donomni]

Episode 10 isn't filler! It's legit! He's an important character!

Oh, for sure! I mean future episodes.

And he is important(sort of)!

[Kim]

Bleach Party Chat continues the unending trend of kicking ass. Tonight we watched episodes 11 and 12 and saw Chad continue his rise to stardom, reaching such great heights that he could surely never fall from greatness. Join us tomorrow evening, same time, for two more eps as Tite Kubo ramps up the action even more!

[Solid Snake]

Bleach Party Chat continues the unending trend of kicking ass. Tonight we watched episodes 11 and 12 and saw Chad continue his rise to stardom, reaching such great heights that he could surely never fall from greatness. Join us tomorrow evening, same time, for two more eps as Tite Kubo ramps up the action even more!

You totally forgot to mention the fact that tonight signaled the beginning of Ichigo and Ishida's epic romance

[Kim]

Honestly, of all the possible ships I could support in Bleach, I just can't see myself supporting Ishida x Ichigo.

[Solid Snake]

Honestly, of all the possible ships I could support in Bleach, I just can't see myself supporting Ishida x Ichigo.

I'm shocked you didn't catch on the fact that my faux enthusiasm was mostly manufactured for laughs as opposed to a genuine reflection of my shipping beliefs ;)

(Clearly Ichigo and Chad is where it's going on)

[phil_]

I am currently a fan of Boku ha tomodachi suku nai, because it tackles such hard hitting issues as Monster Hunter griefing and how no one liked The Sacred Blacksmith but me.

[Gregness]

Ishida x Ichigo.

You're welcome. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_P1OhKUw6I)

[Kim]

Holy shit Mawaru Penguindrum 15. Answers so many questions, adds even more "Jesus this is fucked up" to the show, and Goddamn this show is still the most compelling thing I'm watching.

[phil_]

Goddamn this show is still the most compelling thing I'm watching.And yet, I feel I get my money's worth just from watching the penguins act goofy.

[unsubstantiated personal speculation]Kanba! He's trying to trick you into fucking your sister! Don't do it, man! That's what Sanetoshi wants![/speculation]

I'm so excited to watch this week's Fate/Zero as soon as _mike finishes studying. I hope something awful happens.

[Kim]

We did a double in the Bleach Party Chat this evening, and Snake met Renji and Byakuya, though that fight has only just begun. Soon we enter the Soul Society arc legit. Two more episodes tomorrow night! Same time, same place!

[phil_]

Oh, hey, while I'm talking about animays in the other thread, let me talk about other anime here, since BokuTomo continues to be wonderful and Guilty Crown seems to be following the ideal path of getting the stupid crap out of the way before going it's own road as of the end of episode three.

Oh, and Precure seems to have gotten to the plot now, which is nice. This week is a Halloween episode and I'm so psyched.

Edit: Also, I have no idea what Penguin Drum is trying to get at anymore and it's awesome.

Sober edit that will seem like nothing of the sort: Like, BokuTomo, most of the robot porn I see is just two robots with dicks clanging together; nothing too robot-y. This episode has Gundam/Eva that can be nothing but robots. It's like, for the sake of a joke, the author went deeper into robot fetishists' heads than the people who draw their porn are willing to go. It's such a great effort for such a stupid gag and I dig wasted effort in my comedy!

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

So, Fate/Zero.

Holy shit I fucking love this anime so much. The animation itself, the characters, the fights! Everything about the adaptation is positively gorgeous. Exactly what I've come to expect from UFOtable. Better still, I've already read the novels it's based on (and loved them) and I'm pretty into Type-Moon stuff in general, so this anime has taken the damn cake and then made it into a Noble Phantasm.

Berserker is fucking amazing. For a two minute sequence his fight with Archer has to be one of the greatest things of the last few seasons for me.
And then he beats the shit out of Saber with a lamppost.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m107/grthwllms/1319986529985.gif

That right there is fucking brilliant.

You know I forgot the music! The music is great too.
Admittedly it's not quite the sort of thing I would listen to on its own so far, but it ties every scene up so beautifully.

[Bells]

I hear that there is a show Called Ben-To that is something about a Survival/Fighting kickass anime about people battling to buy Food at half-price...

Since i'm not at home right now, can someone confirm this one for me?

[Kim]

That is correct. It's dumb, but it knows it's dumb. Seems bizarrely generic for such a premise, but I know some people who like it.

[phil_]

Karesh, you left our something very important.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2324/22703830.png

Iskander, King of Conquerors, Manliest of Role-models, Greatest of Characters! (picture not to scale and based on composite sketching)

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Karesh, you left our something very important.

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2324/22703830.png

Iskander, King of Conquerors, Manliest of Role-models, Greatest of Characters! (picture not to scale and based on composite sketching)

Iskander was awesome in his own way to be sure.
I liked how in Episode 04 he meta steals the show by being an awesome character, but then actually goes ahead and in show steals the show by getting all up in Lancer and Saber's business.

[phil_]

So, concerning Persona 4 The Animation, did this:

http://i.imgur.com/GMged.jpg

happen in the game or what? 'Cause it was awesome.

[01d55]

So, concerning Persona 4 The Animation, did this:

http://i.imgur.com/GMged.jpg

happen in the game or what? 'Cause it was awesome.

Nope!

The bit where Narukami PUNCHES YOUSUKE IN THE FACE FUCK YEAH at the cliimax of his shadow battle is also new.

[Kim]

Persona 4: The Animation - Basically openly advocating violence against gay guys who hit on you or make you uncomfortable even when they pose no physical threat.

[Ryong]

I finished watching Katanagatari a while ago.

It doesn't have a very good ending. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Understatement)

[phil_]

I finished watching Katanagatari a while ago.

It doesn't have a very good ending. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Understatement)Is it not very good because it's sad, or is it not very good because you're wrong?

[Bells]

That is correct. It's dumb, but it knows it's dumb. Seems bizarrely generic for such a premise, but I know some people who like it.

Watched it...
love it...

It's so fucking silly and yet it treats itself as if it were 100% serious business, it's fantastic (Ep 4 is pure Fanservice though).

[Ramary]

Oh neat thread.

What I think of each series I am watching.

P4A: Played and loved the game, the anime is a great adaption so far. Brotag's character development is going fantastically, snarky bastard...love it. The episode with Kanji's dungeon is like the best episode this season of anything, Nice Guy and Tough Guy actually being in the anime and being hilarious is what made it for me.

Penguindrum: I came just to see what the fuck it is about, I stayed for Ringo. I am still not sure what is going on half the time in it because of the surreality of it all but it is very enjoyable and very artsy. Oh and Ringo is awesome.

F/Z: Karesh forced me to watch this at gunpoint. I am not a big type moon person, the only other type moon thing I enjoyed before this was the excellent kara no kyouki movie series, and this is done by the same team. Not much to say, but it is just really well done besides the stupid CGI shit on some parts (Berserker namely).

Ben-to: Fight Club with Lunchables. Awesome. Nuff' said.

Working!!' (Season 2): A fairly silly slice of life about a bunch of people working in a restaurant. All of them completely crazy. Not groundbreaking or anything, but every episode makes me smile. If you whanna watch it, start with season one.

Mirai Nikki: Adaptation of a manga that is essentially Highlander with cell phones and has what is considered the yandere of all yanderes, Yuno. This is a series that is odd to recommend, cause 80% of it is actually alright, and some parts of it are frankly great. But it is loaded with plot holes, and if you read the manga like me, you know of the ending...which I am not exaggerating this, THE WORST FUCKING ENDING I HAVE EVER SEEN TO ANYTHING. EVER. I still say take a look at it, cause for the most part like I said is alright. It also has the best OP AND ED of the season, hands down.

opening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql0NtjXIv_s)
ending (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI0KEwRmXOE)

[Ryong]

Is it not very good because it's sad, or is it not very good because you're wrong?

The series has a lot of anticlimax moments and what happens in the last chapter goes against everything that's seen in the rest of the series.

[Kim]

Latest Mawaru ep was fantastic. All the big questions are being answered, and the answers themselves aren't shitty!

[Kim]

This is a pretty good look at why I will not be supporting the Persona 4 anime anymore. (http://chocotaur.tumblr.com/post/13311883444/homophobia-in-fiction-is-still-homophobia)

(Also why I probably won't support anything P4 related in the future.)

[phil_]

The series has a lot of anticlimax moments and what happens in the last chapter goes against everything that's seen in the rest of the series.If you list "anticlimax moments" as a negative then I'm just gonna have to get out my best beatnik voice and inform you that you just don't get it ma-a-a-a-an.

Edit: Still haven't seen the last two episodes of Persona 4, but I read Liz's article anyway. Sounds like this wouldn't be so bad if, up to this point, Protag-kun wasn't presented as perfect and caring and thoughtful all day every day up until Kanji. But he was, so it is.

[Ryong]

Do you want me to actually talk about Katanagatari? Fine.

There's a character that's a complete mary sue. For the first three episodes, you are shown that there's a really strong swordsman. The fight against him happens entirely offscreen. The end of the series has the girl protagonist heavily wounded, so in her last moments she tells the protagonist that all she did was a lie and, after their journey was done, she'd kill him, because that's what she does with people: not trust them. Except she could be lying. The main antagonist of the series then does absolutely nothing and, after all's done, she becomes as close to the protagonist as the original girl was.

[Ramary]

This is a pretty good look at why I will not be supporting the Persona 4 anime anymore. (http://chocotaur.tumblr.com/post/13311883444/homophobia-in-fiction-is-still-homophobia)

(Also why I probably won't support anything P4 related in the future.)

http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j426/Ramary/notasingleone.jpg

[Kim]

What exactly is the point of that post?

[Ramary]

It is the nice way for me to respond to that link, trust me.

[Kim]

Okay, so when I was thinking it was the reactionary behavior of an insecure person when presented with something that makes them uncomfortable, I was right. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Okay, so when I was thinking it was the reactionary behavior of an insecure person when presented with something that makes them uncomfortable, I was right. Thanks for clearing that up.

Wasn't your link a reaction to a situation that made you feel uncomfortable?

[Ramary]

Oh yeah it makes me uncomfortable because there are still people like the author and you who are picking fights to defend the LGBT community at the wrong targets and starting a pointless shitstorm like this when none of the gay people I know had a problem with this at all. There are plenty of other places with real hate for LGBT community and spread a message that they are sinful in some way, this was just trying to funny and showing that yes, Yoskue is an asshole and yes Yu keeps picking the "snarky bastard" response in his conversation choices. This is not related to the base thread at all btw, so I suggest we stop using ad hominem and drop this.

[Kim]

Wasn't your link a reaction to a situation that made you feel uncomfortable?

I would argue that an intelligent explanation of how a show perpetuates and supports the negative treatment of homosexuals is not the same as someone going out of their way to say, "Well I don't give a fuck, so THERE!" in response to said explanation.

You're not a complete idiot, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you actually agree with that, and are getting nitpicky because I'm being mean. To which I can only say, yes, because frankly going out of your way to say "I don't give a fuck~" in response to a member of an underpriveleged group complaining about the way a person/show/book/etc treats an underpriveleged group is kind of an asshole thing that I'm not inclined to let slide.

On the off-chance that you do consider "I don't give a fuck~" on the same level as a member of an underprivileged group explaining that something is perpetuating negative treatment of underprivileged groups and (rightfully) complaining about it, then I don't really have a response because I have no idea what is wrong with you.

there are still people like the author and you who are picking fights to defend the LGBT community at the wrong targets and starting a pointless shitstorm like thisWho the right targets are is not your decision.

when none of the gay people I know had a problem with this at all.None of the gay people I know were okay with it! I live my IRL life as a gay man and I'm not okay with it. "My gay friends say it's okay" is never a defense of something, because it is merely using "gay friends" to defend the opinion you would have had regardless.

This is not related to the base thread at all btw, so I suggest we stop using ad hominem and drop this.You went out of your way to be a jackass. I have zero patience for this shit. Don't want shit? Don't start shit.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I would argue that an intelligent explanation of how a show perpetuates and supports the negative treatment of homosexuals is not the same as someone going out of their way to say, "Well I don't give a fuck, so THERE!" in response to said explanation.

The show doesn't perpetuate or support negative treatment of Homosexuals anymore than it supports or perpetuates throwing people into the TV.

Yosuke's a jerk, it's his character flaw. And as Ramary said this isn't "Suddenly Yu is an asshole", it's that Yu has been picking the snarkiest responses at every turn. "Careful on the way down", "I wish I'd taped it", "Do you want a copy?" As far as I remember the interactions of the game, Yu's taken the choice to be as much an ass as possible. In fact throughout the reading of that page it keeps saying that you can choose to be supportive of Kanji, but it fails to mention that the dialogue presented was part of the choice as well. And that choosing to be supportive of Kanji is going against what the MC has been up to this point. Almost every choice the game gave that the anime has presented has shown the same result, whoever is managing this play-through thinks being an asshole is funny as hell.

At a very base level I disagree with the idea that showing something is support or advocacy for it. Yu and Yosuke are shown being absolute assholes and it's played for comedy, but the show doesn't make a point of making them right for it.

[Kim]

At a very base level I disagree with the idea that showing something is support or advocacy for it. Yu and Yosuke are shown being absolute assholes and it's played for comedy, but the show doesn't make a point of making them right for it.

Except it's never framed as them being assholes. By playing harmful, hateful behavior for laughs with no aspect of the show framing it as actually being as hateful, harmful, and assholish as it is, it distracts from the fact that it is in fact horrible and treats it as "okay."

There is no element of the show that shows homosexuality in a positive light. There are no characters shown who are supportive of it. All characters were quick to resort to violence because "the queer is making us uncomfortable." (Even before Kanji's shadow posed any threat to them whatsoever.)

There is in fact no part of any of the show that refutes the claim that the show is homophobic.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Except it's never framed as them being assholes. By playing harmful, hateful behavior for laughs with no aspect of the show framing it as actually being as hateful, harmful, and assholish as it is, it distracts from the fact that it is in fact horrible and treats it as "okay."

Buut it's not horrible.
Or at the least I can't help but think that I don't see it as any worse than the ribbing I got from my friends for being born.
Oh hey you're British? I'll make fun of you for that.
You're more overweight? Well then I'll make fun of you back for that.
You have more money? Less money? Whatever. Maybe I'm just undersensitive from a lifetime of constant sarcastic biting back and forth between me and my friends and even between me and my father, but I can't see what they did to Kanji as "horrible".

Even beyond that it doesn't really seem like Kanji was distraught or any more offended than usual. He had the same reaction to their insults that he did when they stole his second serving to feed the kid who's sister had died.

There is no element of the show that shows homosexuality in a positive light. There are no characters shown who are supportive of it. All characters were quick to resort to violence because "the queer is making us uncomfortable."
There is in fact no part of any of the show that refutes the claim that the show is homophobic.

Except, you know, the Main Character. What with telling Kanji that there's no problem with who he is, to accept his shadow and be himself.
And everyone else, as they chat with him and interact with him as if he's a normal person they're friends with.

Actually about the British thing I want to be extra clear cause I just remembered a very applicable situation. I was told to my face by my best friend that I shouldn't be in the same cabin as him because I am a dirty red coat traitor and cannot be trusted.
And then I turned around and told him that his pathetic colonies have no sovereignty and will be annexed soon enough and the only way for him to survive was to surrender immediately.

[Kim]

Buut it's not horrible.
Or at the least I can't help but think that I don't see it as any worse than the ribbing I got from my friends for being born.
Oh hey you're British? I'll make fun of you for that.
You're more overweight? Well then I'll make fun of you back for that.
You have more money? Less money? Whatever. Maybe I'm just undersensitive from a lifetime of constant sarcastic biting back and forth between me and my friends and even between me and my father, but I can't see what they did to Kanji as "horrible".

Well, as far as I know, British aren't negatively stereotyped as sexual predators, nor do they have that stereotype used as a justification for the restriction of their basic human rights. Gay people are. Thus, a line from Yosuke that essentially reads as, "Are you going to rape us in our sleep?" is pretty bad.

If Kanji's shadow had been fat, or poor, or British, the cast would not have reacted immediately with violence and fear.

ALSO, there is a pretty substantial difference between how society treats gay people and how society treats being British. This is what we call societal context. As far as I know, there are not substantial segments of society arguing that all British people are inherently bad. British aren't stereotyped as sexual predators and pedophiles. There aren't laws forbidding British people from getting married. When a British person is on TV, there isn't a big uproar about it. There aren't countries trying to pass laws that would have British people put to death.

If this were not the case, and the world was totally okay with gay people, then yes gentle ribbing would be okay. I wouldn't get upset over "gentle ribbing." If this were the case, I would accept that the show is attempting to portray them as assholes, because such behavior would be, by and large across the world, be considered assholish. There are substantial groups of people who think such treatment of gay people is actually A-OK.

Even beyond that it doesn't really seem like Kanji was distraught or any more offended than usual. He had the same reaction to their insults that he did when they stole his second serving to feed the kid who's sister had died.Right, because the creators of a homophobic show are going to be self-aware enough to portray reasonable, realistic reactions to homophobia. Except, you know, not.

Except, you know, the Main Character. What with telling Kanji that there's no problem with who he is, to accept his shadow and be himself.
And everyone else, as they chat with him and interact with him as if he's a normal person they're friends with.Everything about how the show framed "accepting Kanji" and "Kanji accepting himself" was done in a way to diminish and quite possibly erase his identity as a gay person. They weren't accepting "gay Kanji." They were accepting "Kanji who likes cute things." They were accepting "Kanji who fears rejection." They were accepting "Kanji who isn't 'manly.'" At no point in the episode was it ever portrayed as them accepting a gay person. Their reactions to homosexuality were violence, anger, and fear, from every single fucking one of them.

Actually about the British thing I want to be extra clear cause I just remembered a very applicable situation. I was told to my face by my best friend that I shouldn't be in the same cabin as him because I am a dirty red coat traitor and cannot be trusted.
And then I turned around and told him that his pathetic colonies have no sovereignty and will be annexed soon enough and the only way for him to survive was to surrender immediately.When British people are treated by society in any way approaching the way gay people often are, this will be applicable. This is not the case, so it isn't applicable.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Everything about how the show framed "accepting Kanji" and "Kanji accepting himself" was done in a way to diminish and quite possibly erase his identity as a gay person. They weren't accepting "gay Kanji." They were accepting "Kanji who likes cute things." They were accepting "Kanji who fears rejection." They were accepting "Kanji who isn't 'manly.'" At no point in the episode was it ever portrayed as them accepting a gay person. Their reactions to homosexuality were violence, anger, and fear, from every single fucking one of them.

Lets be clear really quick: If the cast wasn't accepting Kanji as a homosexual in the seventh episode, if as you say they diminished the idea that he was homosexual and made it so the entirety of the thing was that they are accepting he's a straight guy who likes cute things... why is Yosuke being homophobic?

Either they are, or are not aware and accepting of the fact that Kanji is homosexual. They cannot both be ignorant of it and accepting only that he likes cute things but simultaneously display homophobic behavior. It doesn't make sense.

Yosuke doesn't say he's uncomfortable sleeping with Kanji because he likes cute things, he's uncomfortable sleeping in the same area as Kanji for a very explicit and specific reason. Which is that Yosuke believes Kanji is homosexual. But that the day leading up to the incident and the day after the incident he, Kanji, Narukami, Chie and Yukiko are all being very friendly sorta suggests that Yosuke doesn't actually hate Kanji at all.

[Kim]

It is a combination of them thinking he's not actually gay and that was just his persona running wild, WHILE ALSO being fearful about what if he is question mark exclamation point. ALSO making offensive jokes about their sexuality is still homophobic even if they're actually not gay!

In short: Using someone's confusion over their sexual identity as a basis for gay jokes at their expense is homophobic either way.

[stefan]

What with telling Kanji that there's no problem with who he is, to accept his shadow and be himself.

except when they happen to be sharing the same tent!

[phil_]

Oh, I didn't see you there. Let me put away my bongos and straighten my little black beret.Do you want me to actually talk about Katanagatari?Not really. I'm not out to, like, prove that it's a good show or something. I just think you're looking at it the wrong way. Take this, for example:For the first three episodes, you are shown that there's a really strong swordsman. The fight against him happens entirely offscreen.Now, think about what you got to see instead. It took the whole episode except for the last few minutes. Do you remember? Little sister murdering three ninja like bugs? I'd say that's a bit more interesting than following the standard plot progression and showing the fight with the world's best swordsman.

That's what the show does. It's not really about wandering around collecting swords and getting into flashy fights, or that's not the point, anyway. The show is about literature, both the process of creating it and the importance of considering what traditions are appropriate for a given piece. That would be why the show is so words-words-words-words. That one can watch it as a series of neat fight scenes is a bonus.

[Solid Snake]

*bursts into the scene like The Kool-Aid man in that Family Guy episode, you know, back when Family Guy was actually good*

I'm not technically 'back' or anything, but when I see people earnestly defend the absolute shitstorm that was Persona 4's godawful seventh and eighth episodes, I have to briefly make an exception to my leave of absence to articulate exactly why I think the P4 Anime took a severe turn downhill.

Mind you, let me be blunt here: I fucking LOVE Persona 4. So much I commissioned our very own Matt Speroni to draw me high-quality P4 fanart. So much that Chie Satonaka is basically my soulmate. So much that I've played the game through three times; once playing the main character as if he was myself, then going for a 'perfect' playthrough, then playing the game a third freaking time because I enjoyed it so much that I HAD to play it again. Even achieving perfection already was insufficient to persuade me.

I love Persona 4 and I'm getting that out of the way in advance because you don't need to accuse me of hating P4 just because I hated the last two episodes. The fact that I love Persona 4 so damn much is basically the reason why these last episodes hurt so hard. It was like getting sucker-punched by your best friend, learning that your father betrayed you or getting dumped by the love of your life. P4's like my favorite roleplaying game of the last five or six years, if not the last decade. Getting curb-stomped like this was unexpected.

I even liked the first six episodes of the P4 anime. No, really! They were good!

So let's establish why I personally hated recent P4 Anime developments:

* I kind of expected, and in fact would have encouraged, Yosuke to be a homophobic jerk because, let's face it, he's a homophobic jerk. He's a lovable character, but in the game the fact that he is a homophobic jerk is clearly portrayed as a character flaw. The reactions of other characters to Yosuke's behavior throughout the game clearly establishes that Yosuke is a tad immature and he blurts out stupid things and he often receives a legitimate comeuppance for his bursts of douchebaggery.

That's kind of the point with Yosuke: he's a decent human being who nonetheless is a bit of an ass. And while the Protag basically scores with every woman in the city because he's a nice, compassionate guy who cares about his friends and acts respectfully, Yosuke deliberately contrasts with the Protag and shows just how and why the Protag just might be so 'successful' in his dating life and why he and not Yosuke is the leader of the Investigation Team. With men like Yosuke as 'competition,' all Protag has to do is not be a chauvinistic, homophobic douche with the maturity of a third grader!

So, the way I thought Episode Seven should have gone was the way my game's playthrough essentially went: Yosuke says stupid homophobic shit, the Main Character and the girls scold Yosuke for being so self-centered when Kanji's life is at risk, the Protag acts like the supportive, all-around awesome person he is (and the awesome person that the game and the anime portray him as and that the other characters believe him to be; that is important), Kanji accepts his shadow, everyone wins!

So it was exceptionally disappointing when the Protag decided to join the Homophobia Train. And not just with one or two "You feel mild trepidation entering this dungeon with the wacky sauna theme..." messages that the game gave. Merely feeling fear upon entering a dungeon with shadows trying to kill you, even if that fear is exacerbated somewhat by some irrational and brazenly idiotic "What if the shadows are gay and try to rape me?" thought is one thing, but it's what the Protag actually says when he opens his mouth that differentiates the game's Protagonist from the anime's douche.

Game Protag hesitates but he never once indicates that he's willing to abandon the mission outright (and effectively allow Kanji to quite possibly die due to his non-intervention) because he's afraid of gay people. And while I don't have the script of Episode Seven in front of me, some of the lines from Protag's mouth were just disgustingly homophobic. It wasn't 'snarky,' it was homophobic. There is a difference.

But that pales in comparison to Protag's single worst line (said in Episode Eight, we'll get there,) and it also pales in comparison to...

* The Protag and Yosuke expressing willingness, at a moment's notice, to attack and attempt to kill Kanji's shadow just because Kanji's Shadow makes them feel uncomfortable because Kanji's Shadow is totally gay and hitting on them.

Let's get a few things straight:
At this stage of the storyline, Protag and Yosuke have seen and fought other shadow versions of characters before. They know that shadow versions of characters are absolutely harmless in their original state and remain harmless until the person in question denies them, at which point the shadows transform into a violent version that does in fact start to destroy things.

...So, Yosuke and Protag know that the shadow must be 'defeated' by Kanji accepting Shadow Kanji as himself. Given that the shadows have never been permanently 'defeated' by the cast by any other means, attacking the pre-transformation form of Kanji's shadow is counter-productive at best and could well end up in an outcome of Kanji's death at worst.

Remember, the strategy employed by the P4 characters at this point of the game was to attempt to convince the affected character to accept their shadow before the denial happened, therefore avoiding a fight outright. I'm reasonably certain that at no point in the game did the P4 cast attack the pre-transformation version of a Shadow, particularly when this version of the shadow did nothing to merit their anger except be gay.

And let's not forget that the only fault or foible of pre-transformation Shadow Kanji was that he was too gay for Yosuke and Protag to apparently handle. Shadow Kanji did not constitute a physical threat to the Persona 4 cast at this juncture. He did not physically attack them. He did not threaten to hurt or kill them.

...He just was gay.
And being gay, in and of itself, was totally enough to send Yosuke and Protag into a primordial rage.

But even if we could stop there, I might have been okay with the episode. I mean, sure, lots of (heterosexual, privileged) high school guys who are otherwise decent people have no idea whatsoever how to handle the thought that another guy might think they're smexy. Back in high school, I was one of those guys myself! And maybe there's a message here that the P4 Anime would attempt to convey, like perhaps the Protag who was a perfectly compassionate, likable dude in the game would be portrayed very differently, as a flawed boy with significant moral shortcomings, in the anime.

But then...

* Chie and Yukiko join in and attack a pre-transformation version of Shadow Kanji who represents no physical threat to them just because he's gay.

I guess Chie sort of attempted an excuse of "It's not because he's gay, it's because I'm impulsive and really annoyed at his monologue and I want to freeze things!" But it was particularly surprising (and disappointing) to see Yukiko Amagi, who is basically presented as a sweet, likable girl who's thoughtful and considerate and not excessively prone to initiate violence suddenly decide that she too has had enough of Shadow Kanji.

...because Shadow Kanji is 'acting gay.'

Shadow Chie was acting pretty sinister; why didn't Yosuke and Protag beat the crap out of her when she talked her trash, before Chie's denial and Shadow Chie's transformation into Dominatrix Banana-Chick? Actually, that's just the thing; Shadow Chie's pre-transformation dialogue was arguably far more threatening and antagonistic than Shadow Kanji's, because really, all Shadow Kanji does is flirt shamelessly and talk about how much he enjoys what constitutes his definition of a 'good time.'

The answer that the Anime posits to us is quite simple: Shadow Kanji was gay, and open about being gay, and willing to flirt openly and present his sexuality in a forthcoming manner around others, and that alone merited wanton violence against him. From everyone, male or female, 'jerks' and 'compassionate heroes' alike. The Protag is the chosen one, a symbol of tolerance, progression, heroism, the greatest hope the town of Inaba has, beloved by every woman, respected by man, and he totally wants you to know you better not flirt with him if you have a penis or he will fuck your shit. Chie and Yukiko weren't even a position to feel personally threatened by Shadow Kanji's idle flirtations and they still were so riled by Kanji's **gayness** that physical violence was the preferred solution! Their only justification was one of brazen homophobia, unless you want to argue that they were 'afraid' they'd otherwise be subjected to something so torturous as 'watching this guy talk about how much he enjoys hot saunas with other guys.'

* Did I mention that all of this is occurring in the context of a moment when Kanji's life is personally threatened? The kids don't have the slightest clue of the intricate nature of the TV world they're exploring; all they know is that they have a strict timetable to save Kanji in or he dies, and he needs to accept his Shadow or he's at risk.
...Oooh, I know! Let's antagonize Kanji's Shadow before it transforms and give Kanji more reasons to want to deny his affiliation with said Shadow because we literally care more about not having to listen to gay people flirt with us or our guy friends, than we value Kanji's life!

* Oh, it's okay, because we all know that deep down inside Protag's a really, truly nice guy who cares about Kanji and respects their friendship, he just likes to be 'snarky' (manifesting his snark in the form of wanton attacks in this particular instance, I suppose) to his buddies, right?

Well, Episode Eight puts rest to any thought of that notion!
Episode Eight takes place after the Protag and his buddies have presumably 'accepted' Kanji.
...Only they've only accepted Kanji at day. At night, it's another matter entirely!

Protag's line here is absolutely ludicrous to defend precisely because Yosuke acts far worse around women and the Protag does not call Yosuke out on it. Hell, in the very same episode, Yosuke brazenly advocates that Chie and Yukiko sleep in an integrated manner with he and Protag -- he is advocating a sexually predatory outcome in a tent in the exact same manner that he and Protag accused Kanji of doing! And yet the Protag and the women will tolerate this, because it's typical heterosexual male chauvinistic bullshittery.

...And that's probably actually the biggest problem about all of this. It isn't just the homophobia, although the homophobia is very overt and very despicable and it very openly refutes the P4 game's flawed yet positive approach of encouraging tolerance and diversity in friendships.

...It's that the characters respond so harshly to actions taken by 'homosexual' characters while tolerating and in fact encouraging the very same behavior from their heterosexual counterparts!
Yosuke forcing Yukiko and Chie to wear swimsuits despite their discomfort at the notion is funny and typical guy hijinks, and Yosuke can be excused of that! Even Chie and Yukiko don't aggressively call Yosuke out for being creepy. When Yosuke says "Hey Yukiko and Chie, why not sleep alongside us tonight?" The girls do not respond by badgering Yosuke for threatening to take their 'chastity.

So the message here is plain: Girls just have to tolerate this from heterosexual guys! Heterosexual guys can and will act like perverts who want to steal your sexual purity against your will and force you to dress up in scanty swimsuits, but you should just swallow your criticism and choose to remain his friend and accept the behavior as 'typical.' Even the Protag, by refusing to aggressively scold Yosuke when Yosuke acts legitimately creepy as fuck in drooling over Chie or Yukiko, is passively enabling Yosuke as his 'friend' to engage in this skeevy shit.

...But when Kanji barely acts half as predatory as Yosuke and is just sitting silently in the middle of the guy's tent, both Yosuke and Protag feel that their chastity is in serious danger! Not even because Kanji is gay and because Kanji, like Yosuke to the girls, has expressed a serious sexual interest in the Protag or Yosuke. The 'real' (non-Shadow) Kanji hasn't flirted with Protag or Yosuke at all! They don't even really definitively know whether Kanji is actually gay! And there's far less evidence that Kanji is remotely interested in pursuing a relationship, and he's certainly not forcing the Protag or Yosuke to waltz around in swimsuits for his personal enjoyment.

...The anime says this: The mere possibility that your guy friend might be gay, even if he is utterly disinterested in you, is more threatening than a heterosexual guy's overt and depraved sexual interest in women. There's only reason why this could be: Because mere gayness in and of itself is a 'threat!'

* And the game sort of was imperfect too, but the crucial difference was, the game at least gave you incentives to roleplay the Protag as a decent human being who did not in fact support this worldview. Yosuke may have been condemned to his childish immaturity, but the Protag received rewards in the form of boosts to his social links with Chie and Yukiko by treating them respectfully during the swimsuit scene, and the Protag received rewards in the form of boosts to his social link with Kanji by treating Kanji compassionately, like a true friend, supporting Kanji's presence in the tent, refuting privilege and refusing to indulge in homophobia. Even if you could choose to roleplay the Protag as a jerk, doing so felt out of character (how could the Protag acquire the sincere respect of Kanji and the women he interacts with regularly if he was a chauvinistic homophobe?)

Choosing the 'I-am-a-decent-human-being' options subsequently flow naturally. Yukiko and Chie and Naoto and Kanji and Nanako and Dojima repeatedly reinforce the notion that Protag is a great guy; and more often than not, choosing the 'snarky' options results in penalties to your P4 gameplay experience in the form of stalling social links. An ideal playthrough requires you to consider your friends' feelings and act respectfully and not be intolerant.

But P4: The Anime is tying to have its cake and eat it, too; it's simultaneously attempting to give you a snarky Protag who repeatedly chooses the "hysterical" (note that I don't think they're often very funny) dialogue options, yet also gives you a Protag who, by the Anime's own admission, has above-average Stats in all fields of personal growth by Episode Eight and who's Maxing social links with relative ease. The dynamic of P4 that once punished a homophobic, chauvinistic, asshole of a player is gone, and instead there's a huge fundamental disconnect: The anime characters are still acting like Protag is the sweetest, coolest, most benevolent, likable, tolerant human being they know, utterly demanding their fealty and accruing their affections, but the Protag is increasingly acting just as big a jerk as Yosuke is.

The plentiful evidence that the game provided you that the Protag was a decent person in watching his social links gradually accrue over extended periods of time and effort is gone; what's left is a homophobic jokester who tolerates Yosuke's chauvinism and who's petty and insecure and yet still beloved. At this point, the Protag is in desperate need of the same kind of abuse given to Yosuke on a regular basis. But even when Yukiko and Chie dared toss the Protag into the river with Yosuke, it's still heavily implied that they're totally crushing on him, just as it's still heavily implied that Kanji thinks the Protag is an incredible friend (except, well, not at night, lest his chastity be threatened) and just as Naoki can apparently be swayed from hating the Protag and Yosuke to totally being good bros in the course of a single goddamn conversation.

...So it's not just the homophobia that bothers me, although it's bothersome enough. It's that the homophobia is in plain contradiction of the halo the P4 anime team is still painting around the Protag, and that in painting that angelic halo around the Protag, the animators are saying this: The Protag is an ideal high school student; all you high school students watching the P4 Anime should want to be just like him, because he's going to get all the girls and earn the respect of all the guys and he's a role model. Oh, and by the way, he totally hates gay people, and you should, too. They make him feel awkward and uncomfortable and fearful for his chastity just in the mere act of being themselves. And, it is totally acceptable for heterosexual men to treat their gay friends with this degree of innate suspicion. (By the way, despite the fact that gay people can't do this to you, it's totally cool for you or your heterosexual friends to go even further then this when pursuing women. They just have to accept your inherent lustful state.)

Holy shit, that was long. Even by my standards!
But given that I wanted to stay away from NPF throughout all of December anyway it's totally cool if I'm temp-banned or something over this, I just felt like expressing how the P4 anime's made me feel lately, and the answer is "Not very good!"

[POS Industries]

it's totally cool if I'm temp-banned or something over this
Bro, if you buried anything banworthy in that unabridged copy of War and Peace you posted up there, I ain't gonna go looking for it.

[Ramary]

That godawful wall of text, among other things, kinda helps me declare that the "homophobic P4A" train track should be blown up. Now. We are way off topic now and it just feels like we are throwing bile at each other at only one small part of the overall problem. Japan is a BIG mono-culture and they are generally crappy portraying, well, EVERYONE not a straight Japanese male. So let us go back to keeping this a much less shitstormy thread and just talk about animays.

[Solid Snake]

That godawful wall of text,

Hey now =/
People are allowed to objectively criticize things you like, you know
I mean it's not like I was like "I hate all things Persona 4 because Persona 4 has always been and will always be terrible, and the mere fact that I hate P4 means you should hate it too," that'd be godawful.

And I don't see why criticism of an anime is so inappropriate in a thread about talking about anime
(I'm finding that P4 is too sacred for too many people, too many people staunchly refuse to accept any imperfection with the anime simply because it's P4, and suggesting the anime messed things up is akin to attacking a sacred object)

But if you want to talk about good anime... (http://www.animehere.com/mawaru-penguindrum-episode-1.html)

[Kim]

Actually, the reason it should be dropped by everyone involved is that this conversation is going to go nowhere.

What you'll see more of if we continue this discussion:

1. Ramary complaining about thread derailing (Even though it is in no way derailing) as though this whole clusterfuck wasn't the result of his incredibly douchey post.

2. People telling me that I need to be nicer when telling people the posts they made were douchey and in the ensuing arguments as well.

3. People basically saying that the substantial amount of evidence that shows P4A is a homophobic anime isn't enough for me to say it's homophobic, followed by a bunch of arguments I won't take seriously because I've already heard those arguments several times now.


The discussion is on-topic, but it's a waste of fucking time and will be shut down by a mod for being too angry if we try to have it anyway, so talk about other shit, like how Mawaru is still the best show of the season, if not the year.

[stefan]

That godawful wall of text, among other things, kinda helps me declare that the "homophobic P4A" train track should be blown up. Now. We are way off topic now and it just feels like we are throwing bile at each other at only one small part of the overall problem. Japan is a BIG mono-culture and they are generally crappy portraying, well, EVERYONE not a straight Japanese male. So let us go back to keeping this a much less shitstormy thread and just talk about animays.

allow me to be the one to take the modhit here before nonsy does, because kidgloves and civility are failing to have any effect.

you, in the most literal sense, have no idea what the fuck you are talking about, and despite being pointed in a different direction by someone who does, you continue to act like a shit. you are falling into what I call, in lack of a snappier name, the "only white heterosexual males are allowed to bitch about bigotry, racism, and sexism on the internet" effect. you have never been on the wrong end of the stick, where you are considered an inherently lesser being because of something you never had a choice about, and so it is disgustingly easy for you to look at a contextually legitimate grievance and say, in the manner of internet fuckheads everywhere, "lol guys why you so mad?"

you have no grounds, right, or standing to say this is not a problem, because you lack the context of why it is a problem, but instead of excusing yourself to begin with like a rational being, you choose to shit all over the opinions of other, more informed, people simply because their problems inconvenience you.

you, sir, are a terrible human being, and I hope someone more in your personal vicinity takes it upon themselves to punch you in the dick until you get the point of why you're an ass, and/or are rendered sterile.

I'm out.

[Meister]

THINGS TO TAKE AWAY FROM THIS:

- if you start an argument you don't get to complain that it's derailing the thread

- you should always make an effort to be nice, up to a point it's okay to get carried away especially when it's about issues you deeply care about but there's a difference between that and deciding you're not going to be nice because the other one's such a jackass

- above all, it's an incredibly terrible idea to respond to a point someone's making about an issue they deeply care about with a flippant blanket statement macro. This is the exact reason we didn't want to see them in the news forum anymore and if they become a problem outside of it that solution has proven itself to work pretty good.

[POS Industries]

Hey now =/
For what it's worth, I thought it was a very nice, well thought-out wall of text.

[Solid Snake]

For what it's worth, I thought it was a very nice, well thought-out wall of text.

I'm not sure what is more awesome in retrospect:

The fact that my post criticizing the P4 anime has received the most rep of anything I've written,
OR the fact that most of the people who gave me rep for that Wall of Text indicated in their comments that they didn't even read it but repped me anyway.

I mean that's just beautiful. I literally typed so much that many of you just intuitively repped me without even knowing what you were repping.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I'm not sure what is more awesome in retrospect:

The fact that my post criticizing the P4 anime has received the most rep of anything I've written,
OR the fact that most of the people who gave me rep for that Wall of Text indicated in their comments that they didn't even read it but repped me anyway.

I mean that's just beautiful. I literally typed so much that many of you just intuitively repped me without even knowing what you were repping.

I read the whole thing and passed on repping you because I wasn't quite sure what that segment dealing with the costs of building a bridge in Argentina had to do with the subject.

[Kim]

I'm watching the latest Mawaru ep and AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Donomni]

All you losers need to watch Mawaru. Been watching it with Liz and it's... well, it's good.

Really likes messing with your expectations. A lot. But, somehow, it still ties together rather well, I think.

[POS Industries]

Thread title changed to what I keep reading it as.

Carry on.

[Solid Snake]

All you losers need to watch Mawaru. Been watching it with Liz and it's... well, it's good.

Really likes messing with your expectations. A lot. But, somehow, it still ties together rather well, I think.

How far along are you?

EDIT: Seriously I am absolutely miserable that Episode 22 of Mawaru wasn't released, like, yesterday.
I NEEDS MY MAWARU FIX
I NEEDS THAT PENGUINDRUM

...But no I think the best thing about Mawaru will actually be watching it a second time and really seeing a lot of those early episodes in a completely different light.
Also, Himari is the most adorable anything ever and I can't believe that the anime managed to successfully write her so that it was completely believable that two otherwise sane, rational men would be willing to give up anything and everything for her.

[Donomni]

I'm caught up.

As for your spoiler'd comment: well, it's obvious. Her forehead. It contains the light of the suuuuun~

If you're really back, though, Snake, we'd love to have you back for animu watchings again. It's mostly just me and Liz watching stuff now(Except for Kamen Rider Kabuto, but that's been about a week since we've last seen an episode of that). ;___;

[Solid Snake]

I
If you're really back, though, Snake, we'd love to have you back for animu watchings again.

Sadly, I won't really be 'back' for about another two and a half weeks.

[Solid Snake]

Holy shit, Mawaru Penguindrum's ending.
Like I don't even know where to begin

[Kim]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lutm2yRXvM1qaw84g.gif

No. Wait.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lu3q38vlAs1r2wquvo1_500.jpg

[phil_]

Concerning Penguins, I think this artist has it figured out. (http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=23845517)

Also, it feels like a long time since Idolmaster stared this summer, it's gonna suck waiting for more Fate/Zero, and next year's cartoons look even better than this year's.

[Kim]

The one thing that pic forgets is the part where she prays to God that Kanba get the part that he gave to her back. When Kanba gets the half from Shoma, he actually has a full, rather than most of a full. It's not a HUGE difference, since the end result would be the same, that full going to Himari, but I feel like nitpicking.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Tapdancing Monkeys episode 12 of Persona was incredible, even before Narukami chain summons all of the Personas he has to fight the giant psychic baby thingie.

Apparently that fight and the whole dungeon was pretty meh in the game, so I'm glad they did something different and awesome with it.

Sengoku Basara's "The Last Party" finally got some subs. Ties up many of the character arcs from the previous two seasons, kills off a jerk who really deserves it and finally Tokugawa steps up and stops relying on Tadakatsu.
...Except as a mode of transport. He abuses that privilege pretty much constantly throughout. Just because your best friend has a rocket pack strapped to his back, doesn't mean you should ride him everywhere dammit.


Fate/Zero's setup for the break is good, but I'm sorta mad they cut out just before what will probably be my favorite part.
Namely BERSERKER HIJACK.

http://i39.tinypic.com/23w00zm.png

[Ryong]

I finally finished watching A Certain Scientific Railgun, so now I've seen all about Index and Railgun, in terms of anime. I guess I should read the manga now...

[Kim]

I'm trying to make Snake watch Soul Eater. Anyone who wants to help oughta jump in NPF Chat and then the media consumption chatroom so we can make this happen.

[Solid Snake]

A friend's spending the night, so no Soul Eater eps tonight I'm afraid. I should be back in business tomorrow and I don't anticipate any other hangups over the next week+.

[Fifthfiend]

Penguin Drum is fabulous.

EDIT: it's so great I'm already cringing in anticipation of the crushingly disappointing final episode.

EDIT: the shit this thing takes on me for for caring about it is going to be SO HUGE

[Arcanum]

What time/days do you folk usually convene to watch the animes? Because I want to get in on this more often.

[Solid Snake]

Penguin Drum is fabulous.

EDIT: it's so great I'm already cringing in anticipation of the crushingly disappointing final episode.

EDIT: the shit this thing takes on me for for caring about it is going to be SO HUGE

If you're referring to Mawaru, it is fabulous, and I'm guessing you're just as grateful to Liz as I am for introducing you to it.

(Without spoiling anything, I didn't find the final episode disappointing, but I sort of understand why some other people might.)

Oh, and Arcanum: Animes is usually at 10pm EST. Except on nights when it isn't. Though I'd encourage y'all to have a backup plan of some show other than Soul Eater to watch when I'm not available, because once the new semester starts I'll be completely unavailable (at least) Sunday and Tuesday nights.

[Grimpond]

What time/days do you folk usually convene to watch the animes? Because I want to get in on this more often.

every night at, uh, 10 barring RL stuff. I think.

EDIT: SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!

[phil_]

Don't we need a new http://www.nuklearforums.com/images/icons/animay.pngs thread? 'Cause it's winter now, and I want to talk about how Moretsu/Bodacious/Miniskirt Space Pirates looks like it's gonna be way better than it has any business being with its multitude of awful titles. Should I make it? I don't want to make it if I'm gonna end up bringing it all back home with me.

[Bells]

Just to add in that there are some nift things coming in this new anime season, and i'm still watching Gundam Age because not only is Lighthearted and easy going, but because Flit Asuno is the best "Godmode" character i've ever seen...

[POS Industries]

The animes have fallen.

Long live the animes! (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=41267)