Hatland Mafia

[Mr.Bookworm]

How to Play:

1. Play to win. If you give up, I will seek a Replacement for you. If you actually begin sabotaging your faction's interests, act offensively, troll or flame people in a way that's unnecessarily ad hominem or complain about the rules, I will Modkill you if I have to.
2. In this game, 'Modkill' refers to actions I take to eliminate players who break the rules. It's just the technical term, you can call it 'Hostkill' if you want. Note that if you act in a way that violates NPF Forum rules, an actual NPF Moderator will take action. If an NPF Moderator bans you, I'll seek your Replacement or 'Modkill' you if you cannot be replaced.
3. Be active. If you are not sufficiently active, I will send you PMs. If you continue to be inactive, you will be replaced.
4. Check your PMs before posting at the beginning of every 'Day' period. Failing to take heed may get you Modkilled.
5. 'Days' last 96 hours. During 'Day' periods you may post normally and vote on lynches.
6. 'Nights' last 48 hours. During 'Night' periods those of you with nighttime activities need to take the necessary few minutes to log in and send me a PM indicating the action you'd like to take. You may NOT post in this topic during 'Night.'
7. If you have NOT joined this game in the signup topic: Please do not post here. (Exceptions are obviously made for Mods, who can certainly enforce the NPF rules at their leisure.)

During the Day:

1. 'Days' last a default time of 96 hours. I will periodically remind you of the approaching deadline. 'Days' will never last longer. Even if I'm not present, the 'Day' will end 96 hours after it began, and all votes tabulated or posts made after the 'Day' ends will not count.
2. Deliberately posting after 'Day' ends will get you Replaced or Modkilled. I'll accept a short 'grace' period because sometimes we make mistakes, but votes will never count if cast after the deadline. If you're still posting content long after 'Day' ends, expect consequences.
3. 'Day' may end before the 96 hour period passes. Whenever anyone has more than 50% of existing players on their lynch, day will automatically end early with the lynching of the player. Again, same rules apply here as with the 96 hour deadline; after more than 50% are on a lynch, you're not supposed to talk.
4. Do not edit your posts. Period. At all. For any reason.
5. Do not directly quote any correspondence between the player and the host. Exceptions of what you can quote and what you can paraphrase will be clearly delineated in our communications.
6: Do not communicate with each other outside the game regarding this topic, even after you've died. Exceptions are clearly delineated. Even if you fall under an exception, though, you may only communicate with your partners or teammates so long as you are alive.
7. Turn on invisible. All of you.

Voting:

1: Here is how you vote: ##Vote: Playername. Your vote must be bolded to be valid.
2: Here is how you unvote: ##Unvote. You must unvote before placing a new vote (though you can unvote and place a new vote in the same post.) And again, you must bold your unvotes for them to count.
3: If you do not follow these rules, your votes will not count.
4: You may vote 'No Lynch' at any time by typing ##Vote: No Lynch. You unvote that option the same you'd unvote anything else. If the 'No Lynch' option achieves majority support or has the most votes at the end of the 'Day', there will be no lynch.
5: Lynching is plurality-based. If there are 10 players, it takes 6 to lynch. If there is no majority by the end of the Day, the player with the most votes gets lynched.
6: If there is a tie at the end of the day, we enter a Tiebreaker. No one may talk freely; only new votes or unvotes may be tabulated. The 'Day' does not end until the tie is broken.

Claiming:

1: I'm not sure why two of you seemed to believe this, but you are under no obligation to claim your flavor or your role. You've been given information to do so if you wish, and others may ask or demand information from you, but you may choose to do so strategically whenever you'd like.
2: Remember to paraphrase a description of your role. You may not quote anything I've written to you myself, aside from your name and title. Directly quoting anything you shouldn't is a bannable offense.
3: I've relied on color-coding a fair deal in the PMs that describe your roles. You are free to post part or all of your claims in that color, but please do not color-code every post you write here. It'll quickly become nauseating for us to look at. (Having stared at the colors myself so long while writing those messages, I've already come to regret it.)
4: It is now public knowledge that all anti-town roles have access to a Safelist of characters they can claim. (They must still come up with their own Roles for these characters.)

Contacting Me:

You may contact me regarding technical questions as to how your own role functions and how the role of any teammate or partner functions. You may also contact me at 'Night' with a brief post indicating your nighttime action, if you have one.
You may NOT contact me to ask strategic questions about what you 'should' do, how other roles in the game work, complain about how much you hate your role, complain about how I've balanced the game, complain about how much you hate your teammates or opponents, etc. Save that discussion for the postgame topic. Talking about that now risks me inadvertently leaking important information, so I simply won't respond.

The Players

1. Fenris was shot on Night 1 (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1164815&postcount=310).
2. Gregness was stabbed to death on Night 4 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1168569&postcount=685).
3. Moogle0119 committed suicide on Night 1 (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1164815&postcount=310).
4. Shyria is modkilled.
5. Viridis was hacked to death on Night 3 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1167319&postcount=619).
6. Hawk was shot to death on Night 2 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1166264&postcount=523).
7. Sifright was shot to death on Night 3 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1167319&postcount=619)
8. Karesh
9. Revolving Ocelot
10. Aldurin
11. Geminex
12. Inbred Chocobo was stabbed to death on Night 2 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1166264&postcount=523).
13. BahamutFlare, the Man in the Ushanka, Vigilant Killer, self-aligned was hanged on Day 4. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1168250&postcount=684)
14. Greed
15. Smarty was stabbed to death on Night 3 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1167319&postcount=619).
16. Ravashak
17. Bard the 5th LW was hacked to death on Night 1 (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1164815&postcount=310).
18. rpgdemon
19. Kerensky was stabbed on Night 1 (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1164815&postcount=310).
20. P-sleazy, the Man in the Tinfoil Hat, Paranoid Insomniac, self-aligned was hanged on Day 2 (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1165723&postcount=522).
21. Snake, the Mayor in the Tricorne, Peacemaker, town-aligned was buried alive on Day 1 (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1164452&postcount=309).

Day 1 (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1164452&postcount=309)
Night 1 (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1164815&postcount=310)
Day 2 (http://nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1165723&postcount=522)
Night 2 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1166264&postcount=523)
Day 3 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1166919&postcount=618)
Night 3 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1167319&postcount=619)
Day 4 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1168250&postcount=684)
Night 4 (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1168569&postcount=685)

-----

You have gathered here today, hats solemnly in hand, to witness the passing of one of your fellow Hatlanders, brutally murdered in the streets at night. As his grave is solemnly lowered, hat atop coffin, the Mayor stands up to say a few words. After he is finished with a poetic, beautiful speech on the meaning of life and who this fine Hatlander was, it takes about five minutes for the rest of you lunatics to get whipped into a lynch mob.

Oh well.

Day 1 start. 11 to lynch.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Vote: Smarty

lets pick up where we left off folks.

[Solid Snake]

Vote: Smarty

lets pick up where we left off folks.

I sincerely hope this lynch picks up steam so I can begin this game by literally copy-pasting everything I wrote early D1 in MLP Mafia.

It would save me time.

[BahamutFlare]

Make it quickest D1 ever? No, more information must be found out.

[Solid Snake]

Make it quickest D1 ever? No, more information must be found out.

...You should probably actually skim through what happened D1 of MLP Mafia before commenting on the reference, or you're going to miss the point!

[P-Sleazy]

Quick! To the LAVATORY!

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Once again I find my role entirely uninteresting and lacking in any concrete power whatsoever.

Being invincible was nice but I wish I had been able to do something. Now I'm not even that and I can't do anything again.

[P-Sleazy]

That sounds ALOT like a disgruntled mafiate who wishes he was the mafioso boss.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

That sounds ALOT like a disgruntled mafiate who wishes he was the mafioso boss.

If I'm to be honest I can't get any advancement in this organization.
The Boss is a nepotist.

[P-Sleazy]

Sounds like a confession to me.

VOTE: KARESH

[Aldurin]

Once again I find my role entirely uninteresting and lacking in any concrete power whatsoever.

Being invincible was nice but I wish I had been able to do something. Now I'm not even that and I can't do anything again.

You're lucky though, it sounds like you didn't get your role described as "make your vote, sit the fuck down and don't ruin any shit".

Being a vanilla makes the game seem less exciting, but getting it because of my bad track record with power roles is a low blow.

Bookworm, you're an asshole.

[Gregness]

You know, all the experience I got last game still hasn't prepared me for how to do anything constructive D1. =8^/

[Bard The 5th LW]

Aldurin is playing head games. He's gonna come out Day 3 and turn out to be the Vig or Inventor or some really important role. He bluffed last game two when he claimed he had 2 lynch overrides!

e: there isn't really anything to do D1 except shout shit and stir up discussion from my limited experience.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

You know, all the experience I got last game still hasn't prepared me for how to do anything constructive D1. =8^/

Early stage D1 will usually be pretty benign anyway. Shoot the shit, make some jokes.
Wait for someone to fuck up so we can pounce on them like so many carrion birds.

That in mind,

Vote: P-Sleazy.

[Aldurin]

Vote: Bard

He's been scum the last two games, so he's probably got it down good, and it looks like he's fishing for power roles, which I don't like the sound of.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Vote Count

Smarty - 1
Bard

Karesh - 1
P-Sleazy

P-Sleazy - 1
Karesh

No Lynch - 1
IC

[Inbred Chocobo]

Quick, what is the scummiest activity anyone can do?

Vote: No Lynch

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Quick, what is the scummiest activity anyone can do?

Vote: No Lynch

Voting P-Sleazy.
Unless you're me, in which case it's totally legit town tactics.
Or anyone else, in which case it's just FUCKING VOTE FOR P-SLEAZY ALREADY.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Unvote: Smarty

Oh no! Karesh is using her(?) evil scum mind control powers on me! Must resist!

Vote: P-sleazy

Someone stop this monster!

e:He's been scum the last two games, so he's probably got it down good, and it looks like he's fishing for power roles, which I don't like the sound of.

Nah I was pegged pretty quickly both games.

[Aldurin]

Nah I was pegged pretty quickly both games.

So you're saying that you suck at being scum, in order to make people think you're not competent enough to be scum again?

I can't think of the right image to describe this situation.

VOTE MAINTAINED.

[Kerensky287]

Quick! To the LAVATORY!

The lavatory, huh? I'll bet.

More like, TO TALK WITH YOUR FELLOW MAFIATES

Vote: P-Sleazy

[Bard The 5th LW]

Never said whether or not you should vote me off.

[Solid Snake]

Oh man Smarty was totally right all along
this is so much more fun than actually attempting to do anything productive

[BahamutFlare]

In last game, Snake said to see who is acting differently in past games. Snake isn't putting up walls of text AND they aren't pink.

Hmm. What do you have to say about THAT, Hawk? That's right I'm calling you out on Snake's behavior? I got nothing so far.

[Solid Snake]

In last game, Snake said to see who is acting differently in past games. Snake isn't putting up walls of text AND they aren't pink.

Hmm. What do you have to say about THAT, Hawk? That's right I'm calling you out on Snake's behavior? I got nothing so far.

Are you blind? My text has totally always been pink.

[Aldurin]

Are you blind? My text has totally always been pink.

He was blind . . . ed by the pinkness of your text.

YEEEAAAAHHHH!

[BahamutFlare]

I have no shame in admitting I have a horrible memory and forgot the fact that it was pink in a matter of minutes. Or blind. Both are pretty fair.

Whoops!

[Solid Snake]

Quick, what is the scummiest activity anyone can do?

Vote: No Lynch

Hey thanks for confessing straight up that you're scum, Inbred Chocobo! I appreciate the fact that you've made my life much easier by just coughing up your anti-town identity by doing something as foolish as voting for a No Lynch. Please tell any scummates you may have to be equally considerate.

##Vote: Inbred Chocobo

[rpgdemon]

So you're saying that you suck at being scum, in order to make people think you're not competent enough to be scum again?

I can't think of the right image to describe this situation.

VOTE MAINTAINED.

You know, you're doing/did the exact same thing, but with the power roles.

Though, Snake is acting INCREDIBLY differently than last game. I'd say he's a vote-worthy person. Not gonna vote yet, but we'll see.

I could continue my routine of, "Whoever I wanted dead last game, gets killed this game" (P-Sleazy was killed by my SK kill last game, since he was the one I was most suspicious of, during the Homestuck one), and go for Sifright, but I'll just chill and see what's going on.

[rpgdemon]

Hey thanks for confessing straight up that you're scum, Inbred Chocobo! I appreciate the fact that you've made my life much easier by just coughing up your anti-town identity by doing something as foolish as voting for a No Lynch. Please tell any scummates you may have to be equally considerate.

##Vote: Inbred Chocobo

He's clearly a man in a Jester's Cap?

[Kerensky287]

Hold on a second.

We know that it's common practice for scum to remain inactive to divert attention from themselves.

We also know that Snake is a pretty experienced player.

Really, it only makes perfect sense that Snake would do the exact opposite of what we'd expect him to do from his role.

SNAKE IS MAFIA EVERYBODY HOLY SHITBALLS

UNVOTE: P-SLEAZY

VOTE: SOLID SNAKE

[Aldurin]

Snake, unvote the fuck off of him. IC could very well be the jester, get some investigations on his shit before we start with that.

[Solid Snake]

Though, Snake is acting INCREDIBLY differently than last game.

Psh yeah, because the guy who called attention to the very concept of people acting incredibly differently being a scumtell would subsequently fall headfirst into his own trap. [/sarcasm]

Last game I didn't join in until there was something to write Walls of Text about, because I literally wasn't around on NPF. This game I'm here early and it's too soon to stir up any controversy. IC's No Lynch vote was a stupid idea, though, so I'd like him to stop that.

[Fenris]

What the fuck's with the hashtags

don't count votes that don't include them if you're gonna keep that in the rules

or

don't include it in the rules if you're going to count votes that don't include them

novice!

[Solid Snake]

Hold on a second.

We know that it's common practice for scum to remain inactive to divert attention from themselves.

We also know that Snake is a pretty experienced player.

Really, it only makes perfect sense that Snake would do the exact opposite of what we'd expect him to do from his role.

SNAKE IS MAFIA EVERYBODY HOLY SHITBALLS

UNVOTE: P-SLEAZY

VOTE: SOLID SNAKE

Your theory makes so much sense! It intuitively explains exactly why I so dastardly active last game...as Town.

Also, stop over-reacting to the IC situation. I'm not getting my vote IC because I just want him to get off the No Lynch. We have absolutely no reason to believe or disbelieve that he's a Jester right now based on a single (joke) post.

[Kerensky287]

Why would hashtags be relevant at all?

Any good GM would know to either accept either format, or explicitly lay out which format will be taken. It shouldn't even be an issue.

...Unless Fenris is trying to make lynch votes not count.

Which no townie would ever do.

FENRIS IS MAFIA EVERYBODY

UNVOTE: SOLID SNAKE

VOTE: FENRIS

[Solid Snake]

...And if anything, the case for Kerensky being Jester is now like twenty times stronger than the case for IC wearing the Jester hat.

Kerensky stop being silly plz k thx

[Fenris]

Why would hashtags be relevant at all?

Any good GM would know to either accept either format, or explicitly lay out which format will be taken. It shouldn't even be an issue.

...Unless Fenris is trying to make lynch votes not count.

Which no townie would ever do.

FENRIS IS MAFIA EVERYBODY

UNVOTE: SOLID SNAKE

VOTE: FENRIS

no my secrets

[BahamutFlare]

What kind of secrets?

[Aldurin]

probably sexual secrets.

[Fenris]

probably sexual secrets.

^

[Solid Snake]

Solid Snake types up a Pink Wall of Text for fun in which he talks about everyone in the game
(Because Snake loves the inevitable controversy that begins when serious discussion is attempted and as of right now this topic is indulging in the pathetic style of joke-posting I abhor in all D1s)

1. Fenris

I'm going to miss the sweet host/player dynamic Fenris and I have had going on for the past couple games when we'd shoot the breeze (while not revealing any confidential information, of course) on AIM as the games were ongoing. Now Fenris is a potential enemy and I suspect he'll want to eliminate me early if he's Scum because he knows what I'm capable of, and he knows I'm intimately familiar with scum-Fenris since Fenris was totally a dirty Midnight Crew Mafiate in Homestuck.

2. Gregness

Presumably he was in the last game but I literally remember absolutely nothing regarding his participation or lack thereof.
...In a related note why is IHMN not in this game? The damned MVP of MLP Mafia should definitely be present here. And even if his role doesn't require it, he should speak solely with hat-themed pictures and GIFs.

3. Moogle0119

...He was in Homestuck Mafia but did little of substance. He was WQ, which was a Town 'Nilla role, so I guess I'd expect him to be relatively inconsequential if he's a 'Nilla here. But still, the quiet ones, they're who you have to watch out for.

4. Shyria Dracnoir

*gasp*
A woman in our boys-only Mafia clubhouse? BLASPHEMY
We can't trust women because they're fickle and weak and prone to deceit and so guys let's lynch her posthaste

5. Viridis

...He's the one with the Deadpool avatars and the funky name color shenanigans, right?

6. Hawk

Well, we'll be able to easily judge the type of role and faction he's participating in based on his activity. Which, of course, leads to the absolutely WIFOM-licious situation where I'd fully expect Hawk to be very active this game as Scum or Vig.

...Oh, don't give me that "you're telling us too much Snake, you're giving everyone excessive information!" look, I haven't said anything every anti-Town role in this game hasn't already assumed.

7. Sifright

[I]POLICY LYNCH
...Naw just kidding Sifright, here's hoping you continue to improve. Unless you're scum this time, in which case I sincerely hope you slip up and give Town incredibly useful information.

8. Karesh

Forever intertwined with Sifright, the lovers do dance across the heavens
I expect Karesh to be reasonably productive and reasonably active, and if he isn't, it's a good sign he's scum.

9. Revolving Ocelot

...I expect Revolving Ocelot to be reasonably productive and reasonably active as well, unless he has one of those "WOE IS ME I HATE LIFE" breakdowns, in which case he'll begin sobbing uncontrollably until he's replaced.

...Don't have a breakdown RO, in all sincerity you're really a rather cool dude.

10. Aldurin

He's claimed he's a 'Nilla, which would be a good thing if it's true because I'll be damned if Earl gets a free lynch override again.
Also, Earl, if you do have a free lynch override? Please get me the frak out of this game right now, because I no longer have any interest in participating if that's the case.

11. Geminex

I expect Geminex to play well and be very active. If he starts skirting in activity, it's a bad sign. Also, I expect him to be reasonably capable at interjecting with intelligent thoughts with something like a 70% accuracy rate.

12. Inbred Chocobo

Another reason for my vote on IC, aside from just a policy vote against anyone who dares "No Lynch" this round, is that I absolutely know that IC is capable of far better play than his first post indicates. Dude was one of the truly competent townies out there in Homestuck Mafia, with solid hunches. And he was a 'Nilla in that game, and still able to advance theories with startling accuracy. Generally speaking, if his hunches or ideas turn out faulty in this game it's probably a good sign he's not in a similar pro-Town role.

13. BahamutFlare

His early activity reminds me somewhat of a slightly more lucid Verified in a way that is not remotely flattering. I have nothing else to add just yet.

14. Greed

I expect Greed to pull a reversal this game if he's Scum, meaning in an anti-Town role I now think Greed will over-compensate for last game's failure by being incredibly active and 'helpful' in a way that's only subtly misleading.

15. Smarty

I fully expect Smarty to be absolutely infuriated with all the "information-heavy" D1 dialogue this post provokes. In a communist rage, our resident Lenin will strike with a monstrous fury, declaring that Snake ruins every Mafia game in the history of everything, and demanding that I be lynched immediately.

...Unfortunately I really see Smarty doing this whether he's Scum or Town, so his anger will translate into a null-tell. I do, however, fully anticipate that if Smarty is Town and we lose he will find a way to blame it all on me, whereas if Smarty is Scum and he wins he will suggest that Town lost solely because Snake played a horrific game, and if Smarty is Town and we win he will suggest that we won despite the incredible burden Snake placed upon us and our teammates.

16. Ravashak

No idea. But the name's catchy.

17. Bard

What are the odds that Bard is scum three times in a row?
Then again, wouldn't Bookie rely on just that in some smart move to trick us all into letting our guards down?
I felt Bard played somewhat differently in Homestuck than in MLP Mafia despite his similar roles, so maybe he knows what he's doing.

18. rpgdemon

RPG has a confidence thing that has made him easy to read in the past; the more confident he acts in this thread the more likely he's anti-Town, as he seems to get a boost of assertiveness when he knows what his role is and what he's expected to do. As Town, in a dearth of information, he'll indulge endless hypotheticals and become consumed in an abyss of dauntless possibilities. I wonder how he'll compensate now in response to me highlighting that element of his playstyle.

19. Kerensky

Beware the obvious jester
(...I actually doubt he or IC are Jesters because I just doubt the Jester role is included in almost any decently-hosted Mafia game, as it's a broken role.)

20. P-sleazy

Like with Bard and Fenris, it'll be worth comparing and contrasting his manner of play here with his Mafiate play in Homestuck Mafia.

21. Solid Snake

I am amazing in every imaginable way.
Debate that, punks

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Did you just give everybody a list of shit they should do to keep you from thinking they're scum?

Also, active sure. Productive?
HAH

[Fenris]

21. Solid Snake

I am amazing in every imaginable way.
Debate that, punks

4. Shyria Dracnoir

*gasp*
A woman in our boys-only Mafia clubhouse? BLASPHEMY
We can't trust women because they're fickle and weak and prone to deceit and [insert sexism here] so guys let's lynch her posthaste

I think I figured out why you're bad with women, mang

[Solid Snake]

Did you just give everybody a list of shit they should do to keep you from thinking they're scum?


I just prepared a trap and I'm waiting to see who gets caught. And the best part is no one knows what the trap is.

Also VOTE FENRIS VOTE FENRIS VOTE FENRIS you have CROSSED THE LINE SIR

[Aldurin]

Unvote: Bard

Vote: Solid Snake

I have no idea where you're going with these incoherent shenanigans and I honestly feel like it didn't actually do that good in the last game (take note of how we piledrived the scum after you were gone.) If anything you're probably going to confuse more townies than help them if that's what you're trying.

[Solid Snake]

Yes, I'm going to take lectures on how my Mafia gameplay is terrible from the guy who lynch-overrode Geminex and effectively also prevented me from articulating my suspicions when I promised I would the following day.

Hint: You were able to piledive scum in part because a trail of evidence was left and I had a sizable hand in building the case, not to mention handing you Nik post-death on a silver platter because Scum apparently felt totally comfortable with the 1-to-1 tradeoff.

[Fenris]

I have no idea where you're going with these incoherent shenanigans and I honestly feel like it didn't actually do that good in the last game (take note of how we piledrived the scum after you were gone.) If anything you're probably going to confuse more townies than help them if that's what you're trying.

Are you really going with tl;dr as your reasoning for this?

Like I just want to know if you're really going with tl;dr as your reasoning for this.

[rpgdemon]

Actually, I've only played two games, and Game 1 didn't feel like I could do anything, since I was bulletproof and terrified of being lynched. I wanted to not be a wasted role.

Game 2 confidence stemmed from both from learning more, and no burden of being bulletproof.


Also, since this is how you did it last game:

Snake: Will make up a bunch of reasons for people to be scum, and then say, "If they're not, they have to do this!". Then, if the people do the other thing, will go, "Hah, caught you, you're scum since you played like your townie profile, after I pointed it out!"

As I said last game, you really muddy the water when you do that. So, don't do that. It makes it hard to read anyone, and then you set yourself up as a position of, "Can't lynch Snake, he can read what's what! And everyone else is scum if they do something he says they won't, OR if they do something he says they will!", sort of making the game forced to pay heed to you, and making it hard for anyone else to do anything without becoming suspicious.

So, don't do what you did last game and keep going, "Hah! You've fallen into my trap! And that trap was a trap! And now you're in that trapped trap! By being trapped!", since that did honestly make it nearly impossible to get a read on anyone.

You said that my post last game made you go, "Wait, huh, he has a point", so I hope you'll follow through on that thought and try to guess in a way that doesn't cast blame on people no matter what they're doing. By your D1 logic last game, you've fallen into a trap, because you went back to being the long-post Snake, after it was pointed out that you weren't making long enough posts! And if you refute that claim, you'll fall into another trap!

[rpgdemon]

I just prepared a trap and I'm waiting to see who gets caught. And the best part is no one knows what the trap is.

Also VOTE FENRIS VOTE FENRIS VOTE FENRIS you have CROSSED THE LINE SIR

Oh come on what the fuck Snake, see this is the exact shenanigans I was talking about that you said you thought better of last game. Like, you made this post saying these things, while I was making my post saying that you probably knew better based on what you said last game.

Like, that is actually a legitimate and accidental trap there, since you made a post doing the exact things that I said that you wouldn't do (Having claimed to have learned better), at the exact same time that I said that Snake wouldn't do those things, because he said he learned better.

[Aldurin]

Are you really going with tl;dr as your reasoning for this?

Like I just want to know if you're really going with tl;dr as your reasoning for this.

Yes, I am actually getting fed up with this pink bullshit that as much as it does try to look helpful it will probably drive us into the ground. Snake could easily be doing this as scum, which would be massively in his favor because of how he posts with such conviction and strength, and if he isn't a policy lynch may be in order so that he doesn't disorient the rest of us.

I could barely follow his posts last game. I don't like it.

[Solid Snake]

Snake: Will make up a bunch of reasons for people to be scum, and then say, "If they're not, they have to do this!". Then, if the people do the other thing, will go, "Hah, caught you, you're scum since you played like your townie profile, after I pointed it out!"

Yes, I think I already established that confusing many of you was basically the point.
Also, given I was dead-on in my articulations of my suspicions of you based on your behavior in the MLP game -- remember when I was totally like "RPG is too assertive, it means he's scum" and you were the SK? ...I mean, you haven't really given me any incentive to stop.

Again, D1 strategy for me in MLP was to be confusing and archaic and interject semblances of my serious inklings and suspicions into a few serious posts that were scattered among the chaos. Also, because forcing everyone to be active and over-defensive in my first Mafia game here gives me a great point of reference to compare and contrast how everyone reacts when they're pressured as Scum and/or Town. Clearly you and Smarty hate the method to my madness, but there is a method, albeit apparently one you find too 'risky' for your tastes.


So, don't do what you did last game and keep going, "Hah! You've fallen into my trap! And that trap was a trap! And now you're in that trapped trap! By being trapped!", since that did honestly make it nearly impossible to get a read on anyone.

But that's just the point.
I got several good reads, enough to go 5 of 7 in my D1 post of serious suspicions.
At that same time, all of you got no good reads from my trap-laden trainwreck.
Which is intentional. At the start of the Mafia games, I know I'm Town but I don't know what you are. You could be Town. You could be Mafiate, or Cult, or SK. My goal is to deliberately ensure that you glean as little as possible from actions I take in which I glean as much as possible, and I want to then communicate my true suspicions and my true alignment to other Townies in as incidental a manner as possible.

You said that my post last game made you go, "Wait, huh, he has a point", so I hope you'll follow through on that thought and try to guess in a way that doesn't cast blame on people no matter what they're doing. By your D1 logic last game, you've fallen into a trap, because you went back to being the long-post Snake, after it was pointed out that you weren't making long enough posts! And if you refute that claim, you'll fall into another trap!

This is true!
But the thing is it doesn't matter how many "traps" you or I fall into, what matters is the information we ultimately glean and what we do with it.

For example: I 'caught' IHMN last game in a "trap." But eventually it became clear that A: I wasn't very serious in following through with the "trap," which should have been indication that the entire thing was more a ruse just to spark controversy and activity than a serious attempt to "catch" IHMN at much of anything, and B: the minute it became obvious that IHMN was a pro-Town role restricted to posting pony images, I gave him the opportunity to easily respond by claiming the role and forced everyone off him.

If you take the "traps" too seriously, you're playing the game exactly the way I want you to play it; by my terms, and with less information than what I enjoy regarding my own intentions. So, learn to take them less seriously and roll with the punches. If you fall into one of my "traps" but then it later becomes blatantly clear that you're Town, I'll obviously lay off on you. (...Unless I'm a scum role, in which I probably wouldn't.)

Oh, and rpg: learn to decipher a fucking joke. I didn't properly format the Fenris vote for a reason![/COLOR]

[Sifright]

Just woke up reading through the thread seems to be mostly, D1 jokey lynch votes.

[rpgdemon]

For those interested, from the other game, what I'm referring to:

Faulty logic. That's the gambler's fallacy. If, let's say, they both have a 50% chance of being scum, the fact that one isn't scum doesn't mean that the other is, nor does it increase the odds that the other is.


I propose that, until Day 1 is over, we don't listen to Snake. Just ignore him. After that, he can do whatever he wants, we can do whatever we want, but if he wants a Day 1 lynch to himself, or someone else, we shouldn't give it to him. (I'm assuming Jester's win means the town loses? Or is it just a separate win?)

Right now, all he's doing is keeping people from voting properly, and keeping things incredibly disorganized, making it impossible to pin anyone down as scum. Really, from all his ravings, voting has gone haywire, and the scum now have a huge haven to hide with, because of all the double mobius reacharounds and Xanatos Gambits flying everywhere.

If he is really trying to be helpful, then he's suffering from a severe case of fancy play syndrome. It's what happens, for example, in Magic (For those that play the game), when you attack your weak guy into a more powerful blocker, with mana available and cards in hand. Against an opponent who plays well, they might be bluffed into not blocking, as they don't want to risk some sort of trick. Against a new player, they'll block every time, since they don't even consider the combat trick, and they'll laugh at you for playing stupidly.

If he's trying to be helpful, Snake is the guy that attempted a bluff, that the new player was too inexperienced to read. Meaning, whatever he's doing, he's being fancy and neat with it, and it's going way over the heads of the town and actually actively hurting it. The scum now has a huge hive to hide in, and Snake will say anyone who votes AT ALL is scum, since "Nope, I accused them! Hah! I can't believe it! You fell for the trap again! Man! Again! Look, I caught every scum with the same trap four times!"

...
...You were doing so relatively decently with your logic in criticizing me, like seriously yours was the first criticism of me that actually made me do a double take and say "...Huh..."

...and then you did this.

(The thing Snake was referring to was, in this case, me voting myself.)

As for the joke, didn't you yourself say that joke-voting and hiding behind jokes was scummy behavior, since a scum can just go, "Lol, it was a joke", when they look bad?

It shows that such things are scummy behavior, when I was actually referring to the things you said ABOVE the Fenris vote, and you shrug it off going, "No! There was a joke!". Ambiguities about voting (Which there are right now, which haven't been cleared up) are good for scum to hide in, and if it turns out your Fenris vote counts and he's lynched, you can go, "Oh, but it was a -joke-!". Or if people vote Fenris, you can go, "I didn't lead the vote, it was a joke! The OTHER people ran with it!".

[BahamutFlare]

I, for one, am all for stirring the pot and seeing what floats and sinks.

In a game with little information, one always needs to be as well informed as possible. Whether the method be by creating chaos or interrogation. I'll admit to be slightly suspicious of Snake for going back to long posts, but overall, I'm more thankful to have activity going on to learn more.

It's really up to you as a player to figure out what is lies and truth in the madness that is created.

Snake, as for you being amazing in every way...Are you amazing at surviving in space? If so, I want your autograph!

[Solid Snake]

Oh for God's sake you seriously think I would, as Scum, allow that vote for Fenris to count at the end of D1 because Fenris dared to playfully insult my record with women

...You're not even trying anymore, RPG.
Also, how is it that you're seriously attempting to argue that my activity in this thread so far has been less productive or less insightful than all the typical D1 joke voting that was happening without me? I wasted time and effort into a post that at least carried some degree of insight into my thoughts regarding players in this game and you think I'm the enemy? It sounds less like you're genuinely interested in achieving the clarity you're arguing for and more like you don't want to encourage critical thinking in D1 because you'd rather let folks skate under the radar.

[rpgdemon]

And if your strategy involves, "Let's intentionally mislead and misdirect the town so that I gather information alone, and then they can rely on me", you may want to rethink it.

Like, you can't make a plan that works operating under the assumption that you're town, since no one can safely make that assumption. I made this same argument against Sif's plan last game, since he was talking about how he didn't need to make a plan that worked if he wasn't a townie, since he knew he's a townie.

Since your plan only works with an operating assumption that you're a townie, and actually actively confuses and sabotages people (By your own admission, that's your intent!), it's definitely reeking of scumminess, or just bad playing. Either way, it is certainly harmful to the town to have you doing this.

##Vote: Snake

I'll move my vote if someone else comes up as a better candidate, but right now you seem a very compelling lynch target.

[rpgdemon]

@The post you just made:

You're the one arguing against critical thinking of your own plans, not me. Heck, you applied this critical thinking last game, and are now throwing out that applied critical thinking suddenly.

And you said, your plan relies on misleading the town, instead of getting everyone thinking and informed. Like, you are literally doing what you're accusing me of.

[rpgdemon]

Anyhow, class tomorrow, I'm off to bed.

[Solid Snake]

"Misleading the Town" is a misrepresentation of my wording. My goal last game was to misrepresent my true intentions in regards to specific "traps" that had comparatively little overarching bearing, to ensure that Scum could not glean an accurate handle on my alignment, role, or intentions, while simultaneously ensuring that information was floated out to enable other Townies to make their own judgments.

You see, at the beginning of any Mafia game, there's an imbalance of knowledge between Town and Scum. Scum, in knowing who their teammates are and who their teammates are not, possess an inherent advantage in information. Scum do not need to glean much information in public because they can communicate privately amongst each other and plan through covert channels. To combat this, I intend to air as much out in the open as possible, and glean information.

Like, right now? Right now, in the context of this conversation we're having. Think about how much information we've already disclosed that other Townies can work with. It's now increasingly unlikely that you and I are scummates, or that Aludrin and I are scummates. In that sense, egging you and Aludrin into miniature confrontations now has value. When I flip, Town's going to learn far more than if I flipped without instigating said dialogues.

This is entirely separate from whatever my personal intentions may be and what I personally am attempting to learn in swapping stories with you, because I personally have an additional benefit (in knowing that I'm Town) and an additional drawback (as a single individual, I do not control lynches.)
But it still has positive value to Town compared to the strategy of joke-voting our way through D1.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

But it still has positive value to Town compared to the strategy of joke-voting our way through D1.


Jokes means plus morale.

[Gregness]

If we can't shake loose a lead, I say we vote off inactives if we have any. The only valid argument raised against that strategy last game was that it's better to focus on finding a target. I mean, I'd hope that's sort of obvious, but day 1 being what it is it seems like a decent enough place to start.

I'm officially much more comfortable in later days. :(

[rpgdemon]

Jokes means plus morale.

Well, sure, we'll be losing, but we'll have high morale while we do it!

Joke voting/scheming is pretty bad, since it means that when things turn sour, someone can always fall back on, "Nah, it was a joke, chill! Look, you're pursuing me over a joke, that makes YOU scummy!", when someone has legitimate reason to doubt a player.

[rpgdemon]

Now time to really sleep. My roommate dragged me into watching a movie right when I was going to bed.

[Ravashak]

Like, right now? Right now, in the context of this conversation we're having. Think about how much information we've already disclosed that other Townies can work with. It's now increasingly unlikely that you and I are scummates, or that Aludrin and I are scummates. In that sense, egging you and Aludrin into miniature confrontations now has value. When I flip, Town's going to learn far more than if I flipped without instigating said dialogues. I disagree, if I were a mafiate, I wouldn't put it past myself to get myself and another mafiate to have a bunch of arguments, and stay on different sides of an argument just so that if one's exposed, the other'll be considered a "safe" person.

I say we vote off inactives if we have any.Isn't it a bit early to decide who's inactive? The thread was made at 4:19 in the night for me xP

Since I don't have too much time now, i'll
FoS: Sifright
due to pattern recognition. He was town doctor in Homestruck, he was a char named doctor (though powerless) in MLP, so obviously, logic dictates he's now mafiate medic.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Snake has a pretty different posting style this game than D1 last game- the end result is the same but the tone and content of his posts are wildly different. .
His response to all accusations of "I'm far too good a mafia player to make fuckups like that"is interesting certainly, it could be just his own rampant mafia ego but I think he is more likely playing into the own caricature of himself that has been created which is a pretty aces strategy because it shuts down analysis of your own posts by just creating a "Snake is snake" type response.
As for the posting style change, not sure yet. Either way Snake is a good dude to keep alive because if he is scum he isn't going to hide so we'll figure it out eventually.

He's got a massive hateboner for me though. I don'tknow why. Can't we all just love each other.
Hugs: Snake

[Geminex]

Geez, guys, way to wait until I go to sleep before starting this game. Also, way to make over 60 posts in the first six hours. If nothing else, Snake generates activity.

Anyway, I'm in my lecture on contract law now. If I miss anything important, I'm suing you all.

"If nothing else" is the effective clause here. I get his logic, 'more activity means more information', but I dunno. As much as I'm in favor of clarity and transparency, if the wrong people (mafia, scum) make the right deductions, or if the right people make the wrong deductions (See: The Earl Incident), you can still end up screwing us over pretty thoroughly. And hell, an active player isn't necessarily a townie. Scum want to avoid attention, but if they know we know that, they can show activity to throw us off. So I'm not sure which side to take.

And I agree with smarty, maybe this is just leftover tension from last game's ending, but Snake's tone is definitely different. That necessarily suspicious, but definitely noteworthy.

[Geminex]

Whoops, by wrong people I meant "Mafia, Cult".

[Sifright]

So bus broke down on the way to work and i'm rereading through the tread but i'm not keen on rpgdemon so far, Also as a townie making plans that only work well for yourself if you are town is totally what you want to do.

So

Fos:Rpgdemon

Will post more when I have finished reading through the thread.

[Revising Ocelot]

I'm going on direct evidence here.

This is a land of Hats.

15. Smarty McHathater

Smarty is a hat hater.
This means that Smarty is racist and/or genocidal towards the Hatland.
Smarty is essentially anti-town.

##Vote: Smarty

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Damn you guys, you started this thread at 4 in the morning! 70 posts in that time too. Anyway, I'm here now, and just as confused as last time. Looks like we're off to a good start.

And well, seeing as it's the issue of the hour, I really dunno what to think of Snakes strategies. He could just be as good as he thinks he is at mafia, and playing several levels above my head, or he could just be actually insane. The difference in his posting style so far could just be part of his newest mental strategy or could be indicative of a new alignment. However he HAS generated controversy and all round discussion anyway which is totally in character for him.

Like SMB says though, if he's scum we'll find out soon enough because he has to eventually slip up if he's not town.

If we can't shake loose a lead, I say we vote off inactives if we have any. The only valid argument raised against that strategy last game was that it's better to focus on finding a target. I mean, I'd hope that's sort of obvious, but day 1 being what it is it seems like a decent enough place to start.

I'm officially much more comfortable in later days. :(

There was a lot of discussion and arguments about this last time and it resulted in a pretty definate divide in opinions. On the one hand, with nothing else to go on, lynching inactives is safer, and so might be good for D1, however we still don't know who is really inactive yet. On the other hand, lynching inactives doesn't REALLY help us either, though it may have helped us more last game because a lot of the scum were being pretty inactive, or at least low key enough to count as inactive.

We really need to wait and see first before going down that road.

Not gona vote anyone yet becuase you're all just as suspicious as always and it seems I missed the joke voting period.:(

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm going on direct evidence here.

This is a land of Hats.



Smarty is a hat hater.
This means that Smarty is racist and/or genocidal towards the Hatland.
Smarty is essentially anti-town.

##Vote: Smarty

I direct you to the signup thread which will reveal Gem as the true hat hater

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Yeah SMBs hate is generally directed at anything and everything and isn't neccesarily hat-specific.

[Geminex]

I direct you to the signup thread which will reveal Gem as the true hat hater

You made me say those things. With your cult mind control.
You also made me say that time cop is a great movie. How could you.

[Ravashak]

Snake, unvote the fuck off of him. IC could very well be the jester, get some investigations on his shit before we start with that.Unvote: Bard

Vote: Solid Snake

I have no idea where you're going with these incoherent shenanigans and I honestly feel like it didn't actually do that good in the last game (take note of how we piledrived the scum after you were gone.) If anything you're probably going to confuse more townies than help them if that's what you're trying.
These two quotes make me highly suspicious of Aldurin. First you're trying to get Snake to stop voting someone and get the police officer to do your bidding, on what I assume at this point is an investigation of an innocent.

Then you change your vote to Snake because he produces too much text / conversation so people'd have a harder time staying silent/hidden?

Then your first post, the cry out which pretty much said "boohoo I'm town!" just doesn't seem believable to me.

Vote: Aldurin

[Inbred Chocobo]

Unvote: No Lynch

Vote: Karesh

Karesh's Day 1 antics and posting behavior feels more like a confuse everyone so no one wants to prod him actions than anything else. Of all the people making joke posts, his actions have a tinge of subtle-ness of hiding other motives. That, and he was going on about his role, which I honestly believe is complete carp.

Snake is making himself out to be the big boy, but since I wasn't in the MLP mafia game and am not going to bother reading it, I am unaware if this behavior is normal. Then again, I would also like to set the example of me acusing Fenris of scum in the first mafia game and him using examples where I did the exact same accusation and him being town, when he turned out scum. So I am extremely reluctant to take items from past games and use them as a frame this game.

Bard has the exact same chances of being scum twice then town as he does being scum three times. Any fabrication of factors made in your head mean nothing, he has just as equal chance as anyone.

Aldurin seems.... assertive as well to his accusations. Interesting to see there.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

You're.... really gonna have to explain this one to me cause I can't see any difference between how I'm behaving this day one and how I behave almost every day one.

Unless that's just a joke vote.

[Inbred Chocobo]

First, you speak of plural day ones. You weren't in the first mafia game I was in, and I wasn't in your other game, and looking over it, you were much more reactive in your day one shenanigans than this one.

Second, comparing old Mafia threads to this one, even for behavioral purposes can lead to a trap, as you would be associating a past role that would have no effect for the current game, but you would garner it anyway since well hey I'm the same guy and I'm posting similiar. I fell for that trap on my first game, so I am rather wary as people start to refer to past games again.

Though in your defense, it could be that the first day you just happened to find a mostly empty thread and started posting, or you wish to post a bit more and make yourself known. Still, I find its a bit uneasy so I'm staking a claim and seeing where it leads.

[Aldurin]

These two quotes make me highly suspicious of Aldurin. First you're trying to get Snake to stop voting someone and get the police officer to do your bidding, on what I assume at this point is an investigation of an innocent.

Then you change your vote to Snake because he produces too much text / conversation so people'd have a harder time staying silent/hidden?

Then your first post, the cry out which pretty much said "boohoo I'm town!" just doesn't seem believable to me.

Vote: Aldurin

I'm just somewhat on edge right now, given the reactions to my mafia track record and some real life things going on I've lost my tolerance for Snake.

Like I literally can see no progress from him once he goes into walls of text mode because he then starts strangling himself and anyone near him with overthought logic while others are too intimidated to try to keep up.

For voting him, I was holding Bard as a semi-joke vote until I could find a more reasonable target, and Snake is looking like a problem.

The main thing that nags me is that his hyperactive textwalls seem different from last game. Like I seriously would think that Snake would try to properly establish himself as town if he was town, but the post where he points everybody out just has sarcasm in his place, where I honestly would have expected a proper defense or explanation.

I do get the feeling that he may be scum trying to recreate his "I'm town SO HARD" thing he did last game.

[BahamutFlare]

Who all hasn't posted yet or posted very little? I'd like to hear more from them.

Also, I doubt Aldurin is scum. He seems to be someone that may not be able to handle correct decisions and make good deductions, but I don't think (good) lying is something he is capable of.

What good could scum get by having him be so assertive against one person? If people bandwagon against Snake, it looks bad for Aldurin if Snake turns Town. If Snake was mafia, I don't think the mafia would try to get two of their members in an argument. I'm probably missing more sides in the argument, but at the moment, this is how I see Aldurin, and that would be as town.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Vote Count

Karesh - 2
P-Sleazy
IC

P-Sleazy - 2
Karesh
Bard

Solid Snake - 2
Aldurin
rpgdemon

Fenris - 1
Kerensky

Smarty - 1
Revolving Ocelot

Aldurin - 1
Ravashak

Still 11 to lynch. ~81 hours left.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Moogle, Shyria and Greed haven't posted yet, but we're only half way through the first day so far so I'm inclined to give them a little more time.

Moogle signed up for the last game but then didn't post once, so that might not be very telling anyway, Shyria is pretty unknown and could just be busy, Greed, well, he was fairly inactive last time and turned out to be scum, so I'd be expecting him to be more active this time if he was scummy again. But then, he might expect people to expect him to be more active this time, so it could go either way there.

But as I say, it's still early enough yet and a few of us were late starting due to time differences and stuff.

[Revising Ocelot]

No consensus whatsoever.

I'm still keeping my vote on Smart for his anti-hat sentiments, but Snake's posting as frequently as he does but not with the same amount of Wall'o'Text as he's done in the past. Chocobo and Aldurin are also raising red flags.

Mafia may very well argue amongst themselves to vindicate one member at the cost of villifying another. I think that was Nikose's (poorly implemented) plan in the MLP Mafia, using greed as a fake PO. That went all ass-backwards, obviously, but it's reasonable to expect the same thing at some point here. Too early to make a proper presumption on if that applies to this specific situation, however.

[Fenris]

Moogle, Shyria and Greed haven't posted yet, but we're only half way through the first day so far so I'm inclined to give them a little more time.

Moogle signed up for the last game but then didn't post once, so that might not be very telling anyway, Shyria is pretty unknown and could just be busy, Greed, well, he was fairly inactive last time and turned out to be scum, so I'd be expecting him to be more active this time if he was scummy again. But then, he might expect people to expect him to be more active this time, so it could go either way there.

But as I say, it's still early enough yet and a few of us were late starting due to time differences and stuff.

Moogle posts from work, or at least he did in the past.

He quit my game because he disagreed with how I handled Bookie.

[greed]

Actually scum seemingly turning on each other is pretty common Bahamut, having two scum establish a history of bickering and suspecting each other tends to help protect the other if one gets their cover blown.

It's admittedly more common as a last ditch thing when one looks like they're getting lynched and the other scum push them under a bus to reduce suspicion on them. But starting it early is not unknown, it just means they're more organised and willing to gamble.

This said I kinda agree with Aldurin, his rants seem different. More aggressive, but less assured, more tendency to avow town too.

Edit: Ninja'd fast thread. This was meant to be right after Bookie's post.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Edit: Ninja'd fast thread. This was meant to be right after Bookie's post.

Suuuure it was. :rolleyes:

No sooner were you mentioned than you started posting. Highly suspicious.

FOS: Greed

[Fenris]

Suuuure it was. :rolleyes:

No sooner were you mentioned than you started posting. Highly suspicious.

FOS: Greed

Christ, not that shit again.

[greed]

Haha asshole, a nefarious two minutes between all our posts. This kinda behaviour on day one drives people into hiding and shuts down activity. Also you blame me taking my time reading through this thread with it's plentiful walls of text and lots of activity already?

[greed]

Okay I meant that "asshole" more jokingly than it came out, sorry. I thought I put a smiley in there.

[Ravashak]

Nah, can't blame you, reading such threads can be intimidating (especially if you only enter at day 4 like i did in MLP xP). Nevertheless, participation is encouraged, though.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

I was also joking too. Mostly.;)

[greed]

Anyway to explain my upcoming absence it's 2am and I'm gonna sleep. Night people see you in like 10-14 hours depending on when I've got free time today.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Second, comparing old Mafia threads to this one, even for behavioral purposes can lead to a trap, as you would be associating a past role that would have no effect for the current game, but you would garner it anyway since well hey I'm the same guy and I'm posting similiar. I fell for that trap on my first game, so I am rather wary as people start to refer to past games again.

That's indeed true. Now that I think on it I even used the fact that Fenris was using his old behavior to his advantage in the last game, so it's pretty stupid of me to have tried to argue from that point.
I guess I can't really blame you for voting me if that's how you feel about it but I will be extremely upset if you actually lynch me.
I may cry.

Though in your defense, it could be that the first day you just happened to find a mostly empty thread and started posting, or you wish to post a bit more and make yourself known. Still, I find its a bit uneasy so I'm staking a claim and seeing where it leads.

That's basically it. I hadn't noticed a difference because it's just my usual habit to burst in on Day 1 and fuck about. But in this game I got here a fair bit earlier than usual and started the fucking about rather than just reacting to it. So, your point does have validity in that the habit is different this time around. But I'm not sure where along those lines it points toward "scummy" behavior.
I think that's an important thing to keep in mind in early days, people act differently given different roles, but that doesn't necessarily mean they've been given a scummy role.

If I were, say, the PO. I may decide to feign relative inactivity while I build a list of confirmed townies and scum before revealng myself. If I were a Vig I'd probably take a more aggressive route in rooting the enemy because if I don't have suspicions my targeting is useless.

I don't really remember being mafia in anything that's near a recent game so I can't really speculate on how I'd perform under those circumstances. But a lot like the PO the idea would be to keep myself out of the spotlight, because my nature as a joker doesn't lend well to trying to lead town there's no chance for me to gain that position. So the safest place is out of harms way.

[Sifright]

Ok, just got home finished reading through the thread again. I've not seen any proper scum tells yet. It being day 1 that isn't really a huge surprise. I'm not hugely keen on the way Snake makes massive walls of text, that is to say that the content isn't the problem just that he isn't forming that content in any where near as concise a way as possible because honestly posts that large are very time consuming to dissect.

No votes from me yet, I do have a few suspicions though.

FOS:Rpgdemon (appears to be some what confident)

FOS:Aldurin (Telling PO what to do)



So yea no one I feel confident voting for yet given what's happened, so far.

[Kerensky287]

My eyes are starting to hurt from staring at Snake's pink text.

Unvote: Fenris

Vote: Solid Snake

Although.... Sifright hasn't changed his avatar from the one he held for Pony Mafia.

Could it be because his new avatar would be A FEDORA???

FOS: Sifright

[Kerensky287]

I mean, in all honesty, I feel like Snake's massive post of roles, player by player, might have been:

1) Bravado/swagger, trying to show off what a master he is at "reading" people

2) An attempt to make himself seem important or something. He's trying to take the lead, for one reason or another.

The way that he's been reacting so strongly to any and all criticism makes me think he's afraid to explain his reasoning, too; I haven't looked very hard at his posts, but I feel like they could be dissected to see if there are certain players he guides the readers away from, or certain players he is unreasonably harsh to (to throw off the trail). Voting for Snake at this juncture does honestly seem like a good bet to me, and it's not just because I'm sick of having to strain my eyes.

Unvote: Solid Snake

Vote: Solid Snake

FOS: Solid Snake

[Sifright]

Excuse me good sir, I am the best kind of hat.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Reading backlog!

[Gregness]

I mean, in all honesty, I feel like Snake's massive post of roles, player by player, might have been:

1) Bravado/swagger, trying to show off what a master he is at "reading" people

2) An attempt to make himself seem important or something. He's trying to take the lead, for one reason or another.

The way that he's been reacting so strongly to any and all criticism makes me think he's afraid to explain his reasoning, too; I haven't looked very hard at his posts, but I feel like they could be dissected to see if there are certain players he guides the readers away from, or certain players he is unreasonably harsh to (to throw off the trail). Voting for Snake at this juncture does honestly seem like a good bet to me, and it's not just because I'm sick of having to strain my eyes.

Unvote: Solid Snake

Vote: Solid Snake

FOS: Solid Snake

Okay, Kerensky isn't the only one doing this, but you're the only one to say it in so many words I think. Guys, this whole "snake is writing too much and I have to reeeaaaad it" whining is incredibly pointless. It'd honestly be more suspicious if he didn't write a ton of stuff and frankly it's not that hard to read (whether the logic is valid or not is another subject). It's not a tell for Smarty to get commie all up ins, and it's not a tell for snake to post walls of text. Just treat it like any other post and we'll all be better for it.

FoS: Kerensky
FoS: Aldurin

[Gregness]

I'm just somewhat on edge right now, given the reactions to my mafia track record and some real life things going on I've lost my tolerance for Snake.

Like I literally can see no progress from him once he goes into walls of text mode because he then starts strangling himself and anyone near him with overthought logic while others are too intimidated to try to keep up.

For voting him, I was holding Bard as a semi-joke vote until I could find a more reasonable target, and Snake is looking like a problem.

The main thing that nags me is that his hyperactive textwalls seem different from last game. Like I seriously would think that Snake would try to properly establish himself as town if he was town, but the post where he points everybody out just has sarcasm in his place, where I honestly would have expected a proper defense or explanation.

I do get the feeling that he may be scum trying to recreate his "I'm town SO HARD" thing he did last game.

Never mind, this is actually a better example of what I'm accusing Kerensky of.

[Geminex]

Okay, wow. Just got through the backlog. Again.

And while I'm not entirely sure if I trust Snake as much this time as I did last time, I would reeeeally advise against lynching him on the basis of "He writes too much" alone. I get that him establishing himself this way can come off as suspicious, but this might really just be a way of Snake being Snake. I don't think it's necessarily scummy.

Whether it's unproductive, or even unproductive enough to call for a policy lynch is another matter altogether, but it's 11 PM and I've got a test tomorrow and I really don't wanna get into this. See you all in the morning.

[Geminex]

Also, if I wake up to find that Snake's been lynched without further discussion, I will do an acrobatic goddamn pirouette off the handle.

[Ravashak]

Though it's tempting if you promise to record it and upload it to youtube, I have to agree with Geminex. While I personally prefer to make and read short consise posts, if Snake would do it, more warning bells would go off in my mind than i knew existed. It just wouldn't fit how I've seen Snake work so far.

That said, this is a mafia game, so there's no reason not to be critical of everyone. Just don't be the one to vote for a lynch on someone just because of the standard form of someone. If it's due to content, it's fine, obviously, though some explanation as to why seldom hurts.

In other news, unless I'm mistaken, we still lack posts from Moogle, Shyria and Viridis at this point. Hope they'll join the discussion soon, they might have some decent insight.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Snake's posting certainly seems different, but I'd need more of it.

FOS: Snake

He certainly seems to lack the same confidence as before at any rate. Also:

Unvote: p-sleazy

'cause it was really sorta a joke. Otherwise, Sif seems a bit odd for seeming to have roleclaimed? I mean, I don't think he's said his role but it looks like Fedora and thats a pretty important role because its the best hat. Also, Aldurin's post early on about being vanilla seems a bit off to me because I'd expect a GM to be more impartial than that. As in: assigns roles completely at random. If thats really what bookie sent him, than it would certainly be unorthodox.

[Sifright]

No i haven't role claimed, also it's supposed to be a tophat because tophats are swank. I had the idea of making a top hat for my avatar the moment I joined this mafia game in bookworms thread, kerensky just gave me the push to add it to the pic.

[Shyria Dracnoir]

##VOTE: P-sleazy

Cmon, it's in his name. Clearly he cannot be trusted. And just what was he doing in that lavatory? Conspiring with his mafia overlords?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

some thoughts on th enames that have been floated, long because I might bereally busy next two days:

Snake- Greg, Gem, Fen and Ravashak call out Kerensky and Ald for TL:DR voting but that is a simplifcation of the case. It's not that Snake is posting wals of texxt- it's that he is posting walls of low information text. I count one detailed analysis from snake (post 60) and then a lot of random crap, particularly his calling out of everybody. Large amounts of long low-info posts make it difficult for the town to keep track and also breaks their interest. Thus he can appear to be helping while actually sabotaging the information flow of the town.
This is differnet from the last game where while he did ramble a lot and wasn't concise but his posts were all pretty high information. This game most of this posts have been reiinstating how good he is at mafia- possibly still riled up from the last game or trying to rile up others, particuarly myself, to take him on but alternatively just hiding behind his activity veneer.
He has maintained his post frequency from last game while completing changing his tone and his content.
That said I'm not convinced on a snake boot. Snake won't go in hiding so we will have lots of posts to work with. Not a high priority day 1 target and I'm not convinced he is scum. I could go either way but his drasitc change of behaviour does have me suspicious.

RPGDemon- Very active against Fenris, very confident- often a scum tell but not always and helping the town out at the moment by raising dialogue. I'm putting him as townie for now.

Aldurin- Suspicious as. Vanilla claim is classic newbie scum tactic and he is also confident and aggressive.
My only concern would be that he is inexperienced and the vanilla claim- the strongest evidence against him could be chalked up to that..
HOS: Aldurin
My main target so far.

Karesh: Also claimed a "low-choice" type role. Information to keep in mind.
Karesh's day 1 behaviour doesn't seem particularly out of character.

inactives- too early to tell. One to watch out for is Moogle- from old school games I remember him using UTR mafia tactics a lot and being reasonable active when town.

[Bard The 5th LW]

No i haven't role claimed, also it's supposed to be a tophat because tophats are swank. I had the idea of making a top hat for my avatar the moment I joined this mafia game in bookworms thread, kerensky just gave me the push to add it to the pic.

Okay then my unofficial FOS is gone. Still stands for Earl and Snake though fore reasons already stated.

[BahamutFlare]

We could hypothesize what kind of low type roles Karesh could have? Vanilla town or mafia could always be an explanation.

While most of us have been trying to find leads, Shyria went a bit off topic with the (random?) for P-Sleazy. Although, she/he could very well have just not caught up with the entire topic yet. A bit hasty. P-Sleazy has been getting hit by a good amount random votes too at times spaced apart. Possible bandwagon attempt?

I think to the lavatory comment was directed at me since I was encouraged to look at D1 of MLP Mafia. In which people read in the bathroom.

[Viridis]

I think I agree with rpgdemon's thought that Snake's logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IKnowYouKnowIKnow) (TvTropes link, beware) doesn't really tell us much a lot of the time.

Beyond that, I don't really have much of a feel for who's what yet. Time will tell.

[Fenris]

RPGDemon- Very active against Fenris

He is? According to what happened, he seems to have debated with Snake and ignored me completely as far as I could tell.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

We could hypothesize what kind of low type roles Karesh could have? Vanilla town or mafia could always be an explanation.

While most of us have been trying to find leads, Shyria went a bit off topic with the (random?) for P-Sleazy. Although, she/he could very well have just not caught up with the entire topic yet. A bit hasty. P-Sleazy has been getting hit by a good amount random votes too at times spaced apart. Possible bandwagon attempt?

I think to the lavatory comment was directed at me since I was encouraged to look at D1 of MLP Mafia. In which people read in the bathroom.

Weeeelll, I'll just come out and say that when I said lacking in concrete power, what I meant was that I'm not able to kill people on a whim.

I don't want to say anything else pertaining to my role as it's so early and hey you never know who's listening, but that's the top and bottom of it.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Actually I will say one more thing and that's that I really would like to be able to kill people on a whim.
Soooo, to whoever's running the next mafia: Please?
Please?

[Solid Snake]

Love or hate my playing style, I don't particularly care, but I can't think of any better compliment than the fact that I'm still the #1 topic of conversation after a day's worth of not being present. Can you really say some of the inactives and joke posters are 'better players' or more valued pro-town advocates for shitting the breeze and refusing to give a damn? I think not.

Guys, this whole "snake is writing too much and I have to reeeaaaad it" whining is incredibly pointless.

Oh, no. It's fine because after I flip (and let's face it, Snake is never going to last long in a Mafia game as Town, and I often make decisions under that assumption) you're going to see that I'm Town and the minute I do, everyone who suspects me for bullshit reasons that do not require reasoning beyond "I'm too lazy to read the shit that he writes" should raise serious red flags with you.

This is differnet from the last game where while he did ramble a lot and wasn't concise but his posts were all pretty high information.

This is an astute point and one legitimate criticism of my playstyle this game, but it's a logical consequence of me joining the D1 discussion much sooner than I had last game. In MLP Mafia I wasn't present in NPF long enough to have only come back when a lynch train had already started on you (Smarty), and that basically gave me ammunition to legitimately badger everyone about how stupid that was. This game I've been active since the beginning and the first legitimate lynch train appears to have started against me, so noting something like "Snake seems much more defensive this time around!" isn't exactly the epiphany you believe it to be.

Anyway, I won't delightfully shout "TRAPPED!" this time, because apparently many of you seem to dislike that, but instead I'll just attempt to more calmly note that sometimes the benefit of being Town and acting controversial enough to try to get a lynch train started against you is the knowledge that Scum, assuming you might seriously be lynched, will try to make themselves look good by expressing "minor reservations" about lynching someone they know isn't on their Scumteam.

Thus, I'll FOS: Geminex for simultaneously mentioning that he'd be open to the possibility of "policy lynching" me while expressing that "Snake may just be being Snake," which is basically a classic scum hedge intended to make him sound reasonable after I flip.

I feel more confident about Smarty at this juncture despite a similar hedge because his logic against lynching me D1 due to my activity is actually a comparatively reasonably pro-Town justification to hedge there despite his doubts.

Also, FOS: Ravashak for merely agreeing with previous points made by Geminex and Gregness, reiterating Gregness' point without adding any insight or merit to it, and then attempting to passively encourage we take a hard look at three inactives.

In related news, Fenris' largely fluff posting reminds me of his early-day fluff posting strategy as Scum in Homestuck Mafia, but I don't feel confident enough to FOS him just yet, and of course the verifiable horde of Snake critics, particularly compared to last game, is certainly intriguing. I have a theory, but I'll sit on it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Quick post before bed re Fenris, Gem (I only skimmed most of your post)_
First I meant RPG against Snake not Fenris. I was thinking about Fenris which leads me to my next point-
Fenris- I had noticed that he is clearly following the thread (responding straight away to Moogle claims and to Aldurin hitagainst snake and to Greeds edit post) but wasn't dropping anything really proper posts. While this was his tactic as scum in the other game I felt he could be town power too and was tryin to keep out of the firing line day 1 as a big name poster who would be a reasonably big scum tactic and was going to sit on that theory. It's out now though so fenris thoughts would be good.

Gem I've got no real vibes off, mostly because he's been going the same route as me on most issues. That could be a good scum strategy- just follow a reasonably prolific poster who is going to attack people who you know is not in your scum and will take all the heat and the attention for you decisions. But then it could also be that he comes to same conclusion as me with both of us town. I got no major scum vibes of him yet, I'm putting him in the clean drawer fornow.

Now to bed and oblivion.

[Kerensky287]

At first I was tempted to leave my vote for Snake, but...

Also, Aldurin's post early on about being vanilla seems a bit off to me because I'd expect a GM to be more impartial than that. As in: assigns roles completely at random. If thats really what bookie sent him, than it would certainly be unorthodox.

I looked over that post again, and you're right. There IS something off about it.

You're lucky though, it sounds like you didn't get your role described as "make your vote, sit the fuck down and don't ruin any shit".

Being a vanilla makes the game seem less exciting, but getting it because of my bad track record with power roles is a low blow.

Bookworm, you're an asshole.

I find it odd that you'd get a personalized Vanilla Townie PM. Bookie's a nice enough guy, and I wouldn't expect that sort of stuff out of him. Yes, you're new, and yes, you made a legendary screwup in the Pony mafia, but that's not a good enough reason for him to either a) reroll your role or b) arbitrarily assign you vanilla townie.

If he DID give out roles intentionally, then I am very upset because I wanted Vig. Come on, Bookie! I thought we were friends.

TL;DR, I don't believe Aldurin is a vanilla townie, and if he was town-aligned, he wouldn't have any reason to start flapping his gums about "HAR HAR GOOD THING I DON'T HAVE A ROLE, RIGHT GUYS"

Unvote: Solid Snake

Vote: Aldurin

Anyway, I won't delightfully shout "TRAPPED!" this time, because apparently many of you seem to dislike that

I admit that part of the reason I voted for you was the fact that I hate people who pretend to have foresight by setting up a "gut" prediction that accounts for all possibilities.

Prediction is correct: "See? I totally called it!"

Prediction is incorrect: "You fell right into my trap!"

It's all well and good to attempt to call a person's role and behavior early on, but you can't legitimately claim any accuracy when you flip-flop between it being a trap and it being a legit prediction. You want to start a lynch against somebody, give us a good reason. None of this "If he's quiet, he's mafia! If he's overconfident, he isn't town!" bullcrap.

[P-Sleazy]

##VOTE: P-sleazy

Cmon, it's in his name. Clearly he cannot be trusted. And just what was he doing in that lavatory? Conspiring with his mafia overlords?

I mean...I'm pretty sleazy when it comes to nationality. I was born in Italy, got Canadian citizenship when I was 6, got my polish citizenship when i was 3. Got my American Citizenship today (True story). And now I'm biding my time till it comes time to get my Italian citizenship. Totally vote for me cause of that. Thats legit.

[Moogle0119]

inactives- too early to tell. One to watch out for is Moogle- from old school games I remember him using UTR mafia tactics a lot and being reasonable active when town.

The game hasn't even been going for a full 24 hours yet and already people are listing out "inactives". C'mon! I would've posted even sooner today if I didn't have to waste 20 mins looking on the interwebs for what "UTR mafia tactics" were (never heard the term before).

Fenris is right though, my activity these days will be much more limited due to work actually expecting us to do work at work (the nerve of them!), but I will do my best to keep up with reading the thread while at work and posting when I get a chance. Of course I entirely meant to last game, but with the amount of conversation swirling around Snake, Nikose and others (mostly Snake though and his walls of pink text), trying the catch up on the thread and post something relevant and helpful instead becomes hours of just trying to read and keep up to date with the accusations through dozens of pages while still on Day 1. Regardless, I did understand WHY Snake was doing what he was doing and actually was thankful for it (for rooting up more information on all players), but at the same time it does have it's drawbacks (not many people are just going to start posting without at least reading up to the current posts first).

As far as this game goes, Snake's tone is definitely different this time around, but we can sit here and analyze this crap for days and in the end it's all one big WIFOM situation as to whether he's changed his posting habits or it's remained the same (or any player for that matter) and can be argued pro-town or pro-scum either way.

I'm going to hold off on placing a vote on anyone yet since it's still early on Day 1 and we still have just over 72 hours to decide on a course of action.

[Moogle0119]

P.S.

Vote: P-Sleazy

Because he's legit (and to enjoy old mafia Day 1 habits once again). Yes this IS a joke vote and it will not stay if a serious bandwagon starts on him.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I find it odd that you'd get a personalized Vanilla Townie PM. Bookie's a nice enough guy, and I wouldn't expect that sort of stuff out of him. Yes, you're new, and yes, you made a legendary screwup in the Pony mafia, but that's not a good enough reason for him to either a) reroll your role or b) arbitrarily assign you vanilla townie.


I feel a certain level of responsibility for it so I'm going to make sure we're clear here cause I read Aldurin's posts as a response to my comments, which was a joking begrudging of my given role.
I...kinda thought Aldurin was joking about the idea that Bookie gave him a role purposely too. Unless he clarifies otherwise that's how I see it.


The game hasn't even been going for a full 24 hours yet and already people are listing out "inactives". C'mon! I would've posted even sooner today if I didn't have to waste 20 mins looking on the interwebs for what "UTR mafia tactics" were (never heard the term before).


Yeah, really. The game's barely started and I know that if it'd started another day of this week I wouldn't have been able to post either so lets at least give people a bit of a chance before we start lynching them off.

[Bard The 5th LW]

stuff

Okay he's back to normal now. Since this cuts him fropm my FOS at the moment it leaves Aldurin as my singular suspect, so I'll pitch a vote in for him at this time.

##Vote: Aldurin

Due to strange nature of his pseudo-roleclaim.

[rpgdemon]

FOS:Rpgdemon (appears to be some what confident)

If this is going to be a thing, I actually would like to drop out.

As I said in the helpstravaganza thread, I actually have a problem with being seen as incompetent/have a desire to prove that I'm not incompetent, since I feel as if I'm constantly thought of as such.

If me showing any amount of confidence is going to be a thing that people are flagging as suspicious (I honestly am quite upset at you, Snake, for going and saying, "Unless RPG is a simpering idiot who lacks self esteem, he's not being himself, since he really isn't competent"), I'd like to drop from the game.

Please find a replacement for me. Sorry.

[rpgdemon]

Actually, don't replace me yet. But be on replacement-watch? I dunno.

It depends if the fun I have playing is more or less than the suck of playing.

[BahamutFlare]

RPG: Try to stick around as long as you can. First day is the toughest to get real information about right?

FOS for appearing to be confident? I kinda agree with RPG. That seems like an awful reason for that. If one feels confident that someone is acting scummier than usual, there's nothing wrong with that.

FOS: Sif

[Solid Snake]

Hey, hold on a second, hold on a second.
I'm going to take my Mafia Game Playing hat off for a second, this is far more important than the game.

What RPG Thinks I Said:

[/COLOR]
If me showing any amount of confidence is going to be a thing that people are flagging as suspicious (I honestly am quite upset at you, Snake, for going and saying, "Unless RPG is a simpering idiot who lacks self esteem, he's not being himself, since he really isn't competent"), I'd like to drop from the game.

What I Actually Said:

18. rpgdemon

RPG has a confidence thing that has made him easy to read in the past; the more confident he acts in this thread the more likely he's anti-Town, as he seems to get a boost of assertiveness when he knows what his role is and what he's expected to do. As Town, in a dearth of information, he'll indulge endless hypotheticals and become consumed in an abyss of dauntless possibilities. I wonder how he'll compensate now in response to me highlighting that element of his playstyle.

Like, I just want to get the record straight here. In no way, shape or form does me saying "RPG acts more assertive in an anti-Town role, because he has the benefit of additional information and does not have to deal with the degree of uncertainty every Town role is slated with in terms of getting lynches right" translate into "RPG is a simpering idiot who lacks self-esteem, and a bad person, and he's incompetent."

Like in Mafia games, it's a tried and true fact that your strategies and tactics and ability to play the game are going to be insulted (that's part of the nature of all competitive experiences, and I've certainly suffered as many insults as anyone else), but the key is to realize not to take it too seriously or personally, because at no point when I jokingly or even half-seriously say "You are an atrociously unskilled Mafia player" am I attempting to insinuate "And you are also a fucking terrible human being."

Back to the Game Dynamics:

In a related note, I don't really understand how you're holding a prediction of mine that turned out to be right last game against me. Like, last game I said: "RPG is acting more confident this game, he's more assertive, I think that means he's not Town." And sure enough, you weren't Town.

Now maybe you can argue that my correlation was false, and that there's no relationship between your level of assertiveness in a Mafia game and which role you play, in which case you can argue that without resorting to a cheap trick to make me feel bad personally for 'hurting your feelings' by daring to suggest a mere logical correlation where none existed.

In Mafia, people try to discern whether you're Scum or Town by analyzing your personality and your actions in this game as well as past games you've participated in, to learn patterns, to decipher ideas. Hell, in this game already people have insulted my intelligence to an exorbitant point and basically insinuated that I'm an asshole. The key is to take a deep breath, remind yourself that it's just your style of play that they're insulting, and not "who you really are."

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

In a related note, I don't really understand how you're holding a prediction of mine that turned out to be right last game against me. Like, last game I said: "RPG is acting more confident this game, he's more assertive, I think that means he's not Town." And sure enough, you weren't Town.

That's very true, and it merits further investigation/suspicion. I only have one issue and that's not so much a fault in your logic but a result of my ignorance. I missed out on quite a bit of Homestuck mafia and my memories not what it used to be, was it within Homestuck that you saw the evidence that he doesn't act confidently when town?
I'd like to cross reference, but at the current moment I just don't have the energy to go dumpster diving until it's confirmed to bear some fruit.

[Fenris]

Quick post before bed re Fenris, Gem (I only skimmed most of your post)_
First I meant RPG against Snake not Fenris. I was thinking about Fenris which leads me to my next point-
Fenris- I had noticed that he is clearly following the thread (responding straight away to Moogle claims and to Aldurin hitagainst snake and to Greeds edit post) but wasn't dropping anything really proper posts. While this was his tactic as scum in the other game I felt he could be town power too and was tryin to keep out of the firing line day 1 as a big name poster who would be a reasonably big scum tactic and was going to sit on that theory. It's out now though so fenris thoughts would be good.

While this was indeed (kind of) my tactic in Homestuck Mafia, it's basically how I play regardless of the role I've been assigned. Right now, my m.o. is to call people out on playing the game poorly in the hopes that they will begin playing the game better.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

While this was indeed my tactic in Homestuck Mafia, it's basically how I play regardless of the role I've been assigned. Right now, my m.o. is to call people out on playing the game poorly in the hopes that they will begin playing the game better.

If we're talking about that the reason you were able to dodge suspicion in the previous mafia was precisely because when someone thought this exact thing was scummy you were able to point out that that's how you always play.
Like you did just now.

...OH MY GOD

Na but seriously it's neither evidence for or against you since it's how you always are. You're probably not scum, but that's only because there's a higher ratio of towns.

[Fenris]

If we're talking about that the reason you were able to dodge suspicion in the previous mafia was precisely because when someone thought this exact thing was scummy you were able to point out that that's how you always play.
Like you did just now.

Actually, they pointed out that I was being too nice, which is not the same as pointing out poor play.

In fact, pointing out poor play out kinda makes me an asshole.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Actually, they pointed out that I was being too nice, which is not the same as pointing out poor play.

In fact, pointing out poor play out kinda makes me an asshole.

Really? The words I remember was "Too helpful". Pointing out poor play is kinda helpful.

[Fenris]

Really? The words I remember was "Too helpful". Pointing out poor play is kinda helpful.

It's kinda helpful if you look at it sideways and squint.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

It's kinda helpful if you look at it sideways and squint.

It's helpful like a drill instructor is helpful!

[Fenris]

It's helpful like a drill instructor is helpful!

Give a man a fish, teach a man to fish.

[Gregness]

*snip*...was it within Homestuck that you saw the evidence that he doesn't act confidently when town?
*snip*

If I remember the conversation from last game correctly, the homestuck mafia game was his first game of mafia and that that was the main source of insecurity.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

If I remember the conversation from last game correctly, the homestuck mafia game was his first game of mafia and that that was the main source of insecurity.

That clears it up.

[rpgdemon]

Since I'm playing, I'm gonna go ahead and say, the replacement thing was not a gambit at winning in any way. You can treat it as if it is or isn't, and keep judging based off of whatever you like, but it was entirely just being tired of being told that since I'm confident, I'm acting suspiciously.

Back in game now, Sif seemed pretty eager to just parrot what Snake was saying about me, with nothing else to back it up. That is no where near the same as his toss out theories and suspicions and tons of posts and stuff of last game.

If I were scum, and a player made a correct inference off the bat, I'd try to hit that player quickly first, at least discrediting them if not getting a lynch. Day One is really the only time that it could happen reasonably, since no one has any leads, so two people tenuously going, "He's suspicious!" could just be bad luck that they hit a townie independently, instead of a mafia hit.

If someone makes a bunch of guesses then gets killed off at night, that either implies they're getting something right, or the scum want to misdirect by hitting someone who made some incorrect guesses. Either way, it can give good information, whereas a "Random" or "Misinformed" Day 1 lynch wouldn't do that.

[Solid Snake]

If I remember the conversation from last game correctly, the homestuck mafia game was his first game of mafia and that that was the main source of insecurity.

Hey guys remember in MLP Mafia when Nik totally came to bat to defend Greed and make Greed's excuses for him while Greed was inactive?
(If one flips Scum, take a hard look at the other.)

[greed]

Yeah, but on the other hand Nikose seemed to be running a gambit of being the most obviously scummy dude possible last game for whatever reason. It didn't really work though cause the rest of us weren't that organised, I was legitimately too busy to really keep up with the game, and we tended to make snap judgements on kill decisions and no real plans of action getting outlined for day posting.

Basically we shouldn't count on this game's mafia being such a clusterfuck.

On the other hand parroting what RPG literally said like a page ago is kind of a pointless post.



Back in game now, Sif seemed pretty eager to just parrot what Snake was saying about me, with nothing else to back it up. That is no where near the same as his toss out theories and suspicions and tons of posts and stuff of last game.


This is true. Sif's playstyle is pretty different. On the other hand he did have a solid thing to go on last game, he knew Karesh was town and was able to roll with it.

[greed]

T o expand on that, knowing even one other persons role, especially if you're town and they're town is a a powerful thing for posting confidence and is likely to make you much more adventurous.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Vote Count

P-Sleazy - 3
Karesh
Shyria
Moogle

Aldurin - 3
Ravashak
Kerensky
Bard

Karesh - 2
P-Sleazy
IC

Solid Snake - 2
Aldurin
rpgdemon

Smarty - 1
Revolving Ocelot

11 to lynch. ~70 hours left.

[Gregness]

Hey guys remember in MLP Mafia when Nik totally came to bat to defend Greed and make Greed's excuses for him while Greed was inactive?
(If one flips Scum, take a hard look at the other.)

Y'know, I almost addressed that in the post you quoted but decided it'd be better to stay on point.

Anyway, I figured I'd point that out for two reasons: first, the MLP game was my first mafia game so I've got more than a little empathy for people not knowing what the hell to do day 1. Hell, I'm still in that boat.

Second, with the speed these threads tend to go at, I'd rather end lines of logic (though calling it that is pretty damn kind) that I don't see going anywhere useful. Like, the way I see it: rpg plays with little confidence first game, rpg is town; rpg plays with more confidence his second game (as one would expect with more experience), and rpg flips scum; now in his third game he has yet more confidence apparantly, but people are trying to call this a correlation to his Scum Factor (tm) with logic that's pretty damn shaky.

Like, what's more likely, that rpg has this great meta-strategy of playing timid as town and outgoing as scum that just happens to line up with his role assignments thus far or that he simply is gaining confidence along with experience? The simple answer is the best answer.

I mean, look at me. I didn't contribute this much D1 last game, but this IS about what I was contributing at the end of last game.

[rpgdemon]

Why exactly are so many people on P-Sleazy? Has he done anything yet, or is this just convenient bandwagoning for no reason, despite actual evidence towards a few people?

[Geminex]

Just woke up. I'll get through the backlog later, but I will say that bard appears to have voted twice on that list. I consider that blatant favoritism by bookie.

[BahamutFlare]

I noticed the votes on P-Sleazy a little bit earlier today and mentioned it. They've been slowly accumulating by different people. Some say it's a joke vote. But that's a bunch of joke votes on one person.

[Sifright]

T o expand on that, knowing even one other persons role, especially if you're town and they're town is a a powerful thing for posting confidence and is likely to make you much more adventurous.

Pretty much this, I've no idea of any one elses alignment, like I've mild suspicions but beyond that I'm not willing to throw accusations all over the place. It's a pretty big change not having even one person I know not to throw suspicion at. Any way I said before hand that FOS: list was mostly grasping at straws, I've not seen huge amounts in the way of scum tells, thinking about it more throughly the whole confidence thing is kind of stupid any way because as you play a game more times you naturally end up with at least a little more confidence.

That said Karesh semi outing himself as a power role if thats what he did struck me as absurd and my snap reaction was to go "No way a townie would do that D1" So yea Karesh pings up lightly to moderately on my 'scumdar'

I'm also trying not to post in short drabbles, I'm pretty sure every one hated that last game and I did as well so this is just a continuation of me moving away from that like I did in the previous game when Fenris legitimately bitched at me.

So with that in mind FOS list, again this is mostly tenuous.

FOS:Karesh (I don't believe a town power would be stupid enough to out them selves d1)
FOS:Aldurin (telling PO what to do)

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Not sure I agree with the inexplicable bandwagoning of P-Sleazy either. He hasn't done much yet and still somehow has 3 votes. Granted they could just be joke votes that have been left on, but one of them is from Karesh, who's already acting odd.

Vote: Karesh

For now anyway.

On the subject of RPG, I think he's just naturally argumentative (I don't mean that in a bad way either), at least from what I've seen before. Almost every time I can remember seeing him posting last game he was in a massive counter argument with somebody, and he seems to be again this time. Granted that could be because he's scum again, or he could just be the kind of person who likes to have a hefty debate. I'm inclined to give him more time before voting him, he's pretty active and if he slips up we'll see it.

It also occurs to me that Sif is also posting differently this time. Much less active, much more coherent and large posts. He did start going down this road towards the end of last game though so it could just be an improvement of his posting style. If he suddenly drops in activity throughout the game then alarm bells will start ringing for me.

[Geminex]

Last edited by Mr.Bookworm; Today at 05:39 PM. Reason: Counted Bard twice.
Correction: favoritism and hypocrisy.

[Solid Snake]

Did I ever unvote IC?

Well, anyway:
##Unvote
##Vote: Geminex

Hey Gem, what's up? You're up pretty late, eh? Well, please do start acting more like the Gem in MLP Mafia, that Gem was awesome and I miss him.

[Geminex]

First, it's 10 AM.
Second, I just had a driving test. Passed, yay.

Third, the Gem you knew started Law School two weeks ago and is now cramming his head with Criminal law definitions. I am whatever bits of his brain he can spare to work on this stuff. Still, fine. Gimme a sec.

Though I've gotta say, the vote seems a bit much.

[Solid Snake]

Third, the Gem you knew started Law School two weeks ago and is now cramming his head with Criminal law definitions.

You started law school?
Holy shit how the hell did I not know that
##Unvote

...Those of us suffering through this hellhole gotta stick together bro.
(Also if you're scum and totally lying about law school congratulations for deciphering Snake's hidden weakness, namely that he refuses on principle to D1 lynch fellow law school students, particularly those taking a Criminal Law course the same semester that he's taking Advanced Crim. Snake feels your pain, sir.)

[Sifright]

It also occurs to me that Sif is also posting differently this time. Much less active, much more coherent and large posts. He did start going down this road towards the end of last game though so it could just be an improvement of his posting style. If he suddenly drops in activity throughout the game then alarm bells will start ringing for me.


You all complained last game about my posting so I changed my posting style mid way through last game


I'm also trying not to post in short drabbles, I'm pretty sure every one hated that last game and I did as well so this is just a continuation of me moving away from that like I did in the previous game when Fenris legitimately bitched at me.

So yea, it's not surprising I've changed my posting style when every one complained about it, I find it odd your using that against me though.

[Fenris]

You all complained last game about my posting so I changed my posting style mid way through last game



So yea, it's not surprising I've changed my posting style when every one complained about it, I find it odd your using that against me though.

tbh it's probably because Snake has put this entire game in a "compare everything people are doing to everything people have done" sort of mindset.

[Revising Ocelot]

We're not doing FoS's, are we?

Anyway, sticking Geminex on "the list" for suddenly becoming best bros with my #1 non-Smarty suspect.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

You all complained last game about my posting so I changed my posting style mid way through last game



So yea, it's not surprising I've changed my posting style when every one complained about it, I find it odd your using that against me though.

Yeah I'm not holding it against you, just comparing what I've noticed about people with how they're acting now, which is why I mentioned RPG as well. He's acting mostly the same as far as I can tell, but whether that's a sign of scumminness or just how he is I don't know yet.

As for yourself, posting style aside, I don't think I was ever quite sure of your allegiance all last game, but it seemed everyone else had started taking you as confirmed at one point, so I was reluctant to test it. It could be I'm just harbouring some old bias. Plus you were one of the most active last time and someone who stuck in my memory, so I'm just working with what I know right now. I mean I could try and do an analysis of Greg or Ocelot or whoever, but it would be pretty pointless as I can barely remember what they were like.

I do agree with your points on Karesh and Aldurin though. Something about their town claims just doesn't sit right.

[Geminex]

Okayyys. Let's take this from the top.

On the Snake-RPGdemon issue. I maintain my earlier stance on the Snake, thing. Snake's strategy seems to be to generate activity. He's elaborated on this. And while he did have a bunch of lower-content posts, I'm gonna put that down as an aftermath of last game's conclusion. He seems to have stabilized now, so to speak. Mind you, there is this:

Anyway, I won't delightfully shout "TRAPPED!" this time, because apparently many of you seem to dislike that, but instead I'll just attempt to more calmly note that sometimes the benefit of being Town and acting controversial enough to try to get a lynch train started against you is the knowledge that Scum, assuming you might seriously be lynched, will try to make themselves look good by expressing "minor reservations" about lynching someone they know isn't on their Scumteam.

Thus, I'll FOS: Geminex for simultaneously mentioning that he'd be open to the possibility of "policy lynching" me while expressing that "Snake may just be being Snake," which is basically a classic scum hedge intended to make him sound reasonable after I flip.

(I only just saw this bit, and while you've unvoted me, I'd like to respond properly)

I... kinda see your logic here, but really? I never said I'd be open to a policy lynch on you. When I said 'policy lynch', I was referring to the Earl/Kerensky argument of "He writes too much, he's unproductive'. That's what a policy lynch is, isn't it? One that's based on playstyle rather than concrete suspicions. As for being moderate, my basis for that was uncertainty, because, again, it was 11 PM and I hadn't had time to consider the matter more thoroughly, go through the thread again. I try to do that before posting. I'm pretty sure I said exactly that. And in that light, it seems weird that you'd give me a FOS just because I didn't unequivocally came to your defense straight away. Particularly since I said that I was definitely against a lynch that happened before further discussion.

In any case, the law school is truth. Contract Law, Criminal law and Government law. Doing it in germany, so the system's different, but we can totally discuss Weighty Legal Matters later on.

Anyway, let's get on with it.
RPGdemon: Behavior is liable to change between games. That is a fact. And I don't think increasing confidence on RPGdemon's part is cause for suspicion on its own. The question is, what else is there to incriminate him? I don't think there's that much. He got into the argument with Snake earlier on, but given the controversy behind snake's strategies, that isn't solid enough. Not sure about the whole 'replace me' thing, but I'm honestly not sure what it'd achieve, or if it's even noteworthy.

Karesh... not sure about Karesh. He seems benign right now, but while he has quite a few posts, his stuff is usually low- or no-content, and that is kinda strange. I mean, it's day 1, but still, as far as I can tell, the most productive he's been is when he talked about Fenris' behaviors in the last few games, and even that wasn't entirely serious.

Earl is definitely weird. His points against snake were groundless, and it's been mentioned that his roleclaim doesn't sit right.

Uhm. That's really all I've got so far. I've tried to observe the others a bit, but the Snake discussion has really seemed central so far. I really don't feel like I can express any suspicion, cause what I've seen so far falls pretty solidly within the bounds of D1 behavior, as far as I can tell. I'll keep an eye out. We've got another two days after all.

Also, RO, we are law school bros. That transcends your petty little mafia by the power of mutual suffering.

[rpgdemon]

Re: Karesh and Aldurin

I'm seeing this either as definitely scummy, or some sort of ploy to trick the scum into trying to kill him. Like, we'll be losing one person a day, and the scum killing off all the vanillas first would be really advantageous, instead of killing off power roles.

Aldurin did the same thing as Karesh, first(ish) post going, "Oh, man, I'm a vanilla townie! I suck too much to not be," then even called someone out that their logic was bad when they said that they're not scum, because they're too bad at being scum to be scum again.

Karesh is going after P-Sleazy though, which makes me double-suspicious. I still suspect Snake enough to keep my vote there, but can you explain why P-Sleazy? Since it's looking rather sleazy that a bunch of people all happened to "randomly" vote for him.

If P-Sleazy is still leading by the end of the day, I'll switch my vote to whoever is trailing him in second, since I think letting someone die with absolutely zero reasoning behind it is a poor plan, and ideally there will be a reason to vote for the second place guy.

[Geminex]

Also, I'd be interested in IC. What's his usual playstyle?

[Aldurin]

Regarding your suspicions, yes it was probably stupid for me to reveal my role so early, I just wanted to establish that I couldn't do anything if I wanted to.

For my accusation against Snake, I do believe it is well-founded in the fact that Snake doesn't even seem to be trying to be helpful. His logic circles and calling everybody out at once is more disorienting than anything and I do think he may be trying to talk himself into such a strong pile of confusion that nobody can make a strong case against him not helping town.

[Inbred Chocobo]

I seem to be having difficulty figuring out anything from you guys, as ya'll are just making some jumbled mess of accusations and confusion, and not really getting anywhere. Most of all, a lot of the discussion is about how people act in other games, and I would seriously like entirely the topic dropped. Behavior changes will happen, however subtle due to a number of reasons. A person can both attempt to replicate the behavior of themselves when they were innocent, and they can also change their behavior, simply because people are saying different things, requiring a different response.

Basically, comparing current behavior with past behavior is a fruitless effort that is just going to cause problems and get innocents lynched, and I would rather not see that happen.

Now, onto the point where I accuse people of things.

Aldurin, your roleclaim was early and ill done. A skilled player without a reputation could maybe pull it off and be scum under the radar, but your basic gist is that you made a poor response. Now, you are really just a target for scum to kill without much to go on. (though to be fair, scum may not kill you to make it look like you are, but then that is wine glass in front of me logic and noted and moved on.)

Karesh, I've prodded your flames now, and your general reaction to my vote was pleasing, so for now I am
Unvote: Karesh

Geminex, my playstyle may or may not vary from game to game, allowing for multiple possibilities based on how I act, with influences from my role, how other people are acting, general theme of the mafia game, time of month, whether or not the planets are aligning, and what I had for breakfast that day.

Also, you people posting, hey reading backlog, or hey, I'm lost and confused. Stop that, Stop that right now. Its annoying, and just adds additional posts where none are needed. Why don't you try posting after reading the backlogs.

Finally
Vote: Shyria
One post, a joke post, on a band-wagon that is starting to feel stronger. Change vote or explain reasoning on why you will still be voting for P-Sleazy.

[rpgdemon]

I was thinking on it even more, and I'm definitely feeling more comfortable (More CONFIDENT OMG) in voting Snake or Sifright. By saying that showing confidence = scum, they're trying to get me to theorize less, post less, and play less, which means worse things for the town. This goes directly against Snake's whole, "I wanted dialogs to happen! They're good for the town!" thing that he was saying. It's true that conversation is good for the town, so why do you want a player to stop posting things that lead to conversation.

You say that you sparked this big dialog a few pages back, Snake, which pulls focus off of what started the big dialog in the first place: You seemed very suspicious.


I am kind of curious why you moved off of Karesh and onto Shyria though, IC. If it's a matter of the P-Sleazy vote, Karesh is voting for him still, too.

[Geminex]

IC: Fair enough. I get that playstyle might vary. But Snake in particular seens to be expecting to see something from you, and I'd be interested in a bit more background on that.

As for Earl... gah. Can you actually give examples of what you think Snake is doing? Cause I'd be interested in hearing an elaboration, if there is one.

I get that the big list might have been suspicious, and honestly, I'm not sure if it was all that productive, but your case still seems pretty shaky.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Karesh, I've prodded your flames now, and your general reaction to my vote was pleasing, so for now I am
Unvote: Karesh

<3.

I am kind of curious why you moved off of Karesh and onto Shyria though, IC. If it's a matter of the P-Sleazy vote, Karesh is voting for him still, too.

In the mood to defend him since the above but voting for someone purely to see their reaction is a pretty common tactic in early game. IC sees there's already a vote on me which means a few more votes puts me under pressure, and I'm obliged to respond. Therefore, no matter what my response is IC gains information on how I act.

[Sifright]

I was thinking on it even more, and I'm definitely feeling more comfortable (More CONFIDENT OMG) in voting Snake or Sifright. By saying that showing confidence = scum, they're trying to get me to theorize less, post less, and play less, which means worse things for the town. This goes directly against Snake's whole, "I wanted dialogs to happen! They're good for the town!" thing that he was saying. It's true that conversation is good for the town, so why do you want a player to stop posting things that lead to conversation.

You say that you sparked this big dialog a few pages back, Snake, which pulls focus off of what started the big dialog in the first place: You seemed very suspicious.


I am kind of curious why you moved off of Karesh and onto Shyria though, IC. If it's a matter of the P-Sleazy vote, Karesh is voting for him still, too.

Earlier you attempted to conflate confidence with competence, which is the issue a pretty odd thing to do see being more confident is kind of odd because as a townie i've no fucking idea who is mafia and who isn't, in the previous game I could be a little more reckless with who i suspected because I knew one other person had a massively higher chance of being town which reduced the odds of me hitting townies with suspicion because I had the ability to deduce alot more from how people were voting. Unless you have more information we are unaware of you can't really be certain of who is or isn't mafia as there are no real scum tells day one besides bizzare mistakes.

You're lucky though, it sounds like you didn't get your role described as "make your vote, sit the fuck down and don't ruin any shit".

Being a vanilla makes the game seem less exciting, but getting it because of my bad track record with power roles is a low blow.

Bookworm, you're an asshole.



Like Aldurin for instance claiming nilla townie and stating that bookie castigated him for last game I totally don't believe bookie would do that.

besides which vanilla townies never want to admit to being nilla, because it gives the mafia a smaller list of power targets to hit

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Not sure I agree with the inexplicable bandwagoning of P-Sleazy either. He hasn't done much yet and still somehow has 3 votes. Granted they could just be joke votes that have been left on, but one of them is from Karesh, who's already acting odd.

Vote: Karesh


Can you clarify this a bit? I've heard that I'm acting "odd" a few times, but I'm really not seeing much of the followup logic from anybody on it so far.
If I'm seeming suspicious I'd like to actually know why and what is making me suspicious or odd so I can avoid it in the future, thanks.

Also in response to the P-Sleazy vote thing, you might actually notice something looking at the list of who's voting what:
Fuckers still voting for me.


FOS:Karesh (I don't believe a town power would be stupid enough to out them selves d1)


...We spent an entire game together under the premise that I was exactly that stupid.
I am wounded, Sif.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Weeeelll, I'll just come out and say that when I said lacking in concrete power, what I meant was that I'm not able to kill people on a whim.

I don't want to say anything else pertaining to my role as it's so early and hey you never know who's listening, but that's the top and bottom of it.

Mainly this post here Karesh. You seem to be somewhat implying that you have a power role. On day 1. That is either a completely stupid thing to do or you're lieing about something. Considering you went and outed yourself with Sif early last game and started a massive debate on whether or not you were being truthful or not, almost to the point were I suggested vig attacking you to test your claim, I'd have thought you'd be more careful about revealing shit like that. And if you didn't want to say anything more about your role yet, then you wouldn't have made that post at all.

And as for Sleazy still voting for you, it seems pretty clear that his vote was a joke, so keeping your vote on him, espically since he's currently tied with Aldurin for lynching is a poor reason. Judging by Sleazys general lack of activity so far I'm gona go out on a limb and say he probably just hasn't gotten around to unvoting you. Though it's not like you're in immediate danger of being lynched yourself, so Sleazys vote for you is hardly a major threat, which makes you voting him back look particularly scummy.

Oh and on the "odd" comment, looking over the thread again part of it was just IC chastising you for using previous games knowledge to make assumptions, which is also what I've been doing myself, so I can't blame you for that. At the time I said that I couldn't remember exactly what the other reasons people thought you were acting odd were, which was entirely my own fault for not checking thoroughly first. I retract my odd comment. You're just acting scummy for the above stated reasons instead.

[Bard The 5th LW]

ARG BACKLOG

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Mainly this post here Karesh. You seem to be somewhat implying that you have a power role. On day 1. That is either a completely stupid thing to do or you're lieing about something. Considering you went and outed yourself with Sif early last game and started a massive debate on whether or not you were being truthful or not, almost to the point were I suggested vig attacking you to test your claim, I'd have thought you'd be more careful about revealing shit like that. And if you didn't want to say anything more about your role yet, then you wouldn't have made that post at all.
I didn't meant to imply much of anything about my role, only that I can't kill people on a whim.
Literally, that I cannot kill people on a whim is all that I said about my role, and at the end of the day even that might just be an outright lie.
Hell, just like P-Sleazy joked back I might just be a mafiate but not the Don, it still fits the criteria.

And as for Sleazy still voting for you, it seems pretty clear that his vote was a joke, so keeping your vote on him, espically since he's currently tied with Aldurin for lynching is a poor reason. Judging by Sleazys general lack of activity so far I'm gona go out on a limb and say he probably just hasn't gotten around to unvoting you. Though it's not like you're in immediate danger of being lynched yourself, so Sleazys vote for you is hardly a major threat, which makes you voting him back look particularly scummy.


meh.
He voted for me first, I'm not unvoting him until that changes. It's a bit petty, but there's principles I've got to uphold.

Besides he's tied at, what? Three?
Out of eleven.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Okay I've read most of the backlog, and I'm putting Karesh on my FOS for the moment, because she's being odd. I'd put Shyria there, but Shyria hasn't posted much and you're justified in posting silly shit on your first few posts on D1.

Still not changing my vote for the moment though.

[Kerensky287]

Besides he's tied at, what? Three?
Out of eleven.

Yes, tied. With someone whom (I think) is widely suspected to be a mafiate. And when the time expires, the person with the highest votecount is lynched... unless there's a tie, in which case a tiebreaker is required.

FoS: Karesh

It's weak reasoning, I know. That's part of the reason I'm not calling for a lynch outright. But if a fellow mafiate is in the town's sights, and you can give him a chance by voting for the person in second place, then it never hurts to push for a tie.

"Because he voted for me" is a crappy reason. He's not the only one who voted for you, and it was an obvious jokevote. That, combined with the utterly barren posts you've been making, makes me suspect you as mafia.

[Sifright]

...We spent an entire game together under the premise that I was exactly that stupid.
I am wounded, Sif.

Come on man, it was a totally different situation you were completely invulnerable. Plus you were Fluttershy I was 'The Doctor' and my pm from fenris clearly implied a subtext ;). WE had been together for 900 years, but nah bros for life <3.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

"Because he voted for me" is a crappy reason. He's not the only one who voted for you, and it was an obvious jokevote. That, combined with the utterly barren posts you've been making, makes me suspect you as mafia.


I'm pretty sure he was joke voting, and I'm joke voting as well. If he was likely to be lynched I'd immediately pull my vote off of him. (This exact thing happened in MLP Mafia with Snake), I meant it then and I mean it now. I don't like to actually be a part of the lynch on day one, If his vote comes to that point I will pull it off but I doubt it will, and even if it does almost assuredly before we hit that point he'll have returned and unvoted me, and then I'll unvote him.

It's just a silly little principle I have, and I don't feel like breaking it.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

HEY FUCK IT I'M IN LOVE I DON'T NEED YOUR SHIT.
Na but seriously, if it means that much I guess I can just unvote it now.
I could.
I might not.
But I could.
Unvote: P-Sleazy
Vote: P-Sleazy

I might
Unvote: P-Sleazy
Or
Vote: Aldurin

But
Unvote: Aldurin
Maybe that just doesn't
Vote: P-Sleazy
Actually matter at all.

[Solid Snake]

##Unvote
##Vote: Karesh

Because I don't want to have to read your gushy mushy "I'm in lllluuurrrrvvvveee" crap for the next however many 'Days' of this game.

Also, you broke the No Edit rule in an earlier post of yours, what's up with that?

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

##Unvote
##Vote: Karesh

Because I don't want to have to read your gushy mushy "I'm in lllluuurrrrvvvveee" crap for the next however many 'Days' of this game.

Also, you broke the No Edit rule in an earlier post of yours, what's up with that?

I got used to Fenris's lax attitude on the matter and just figured adding in whoever the hell I was quoting would be easier than making a whole new post again.

I assure you no foul play was at foot, and it isn't even the sort of post that could be used as a trick. Which is what I think that rule is in place to prevent.

In reference to the first point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm130XzAQpY&feature=related

[Solid Snake]

In reference to the first point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm130XzAQpY&feature=related

You lose all kinds of points for posting the song in German.
Newflash: We don't speak German in the civilized world! The Nazis didn't win World War II!

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

You lose all kinds of points for posting the song in German.
Newflash: We don't speak German in the civilized world! The Nazis didn't win World War II!

In math no sound didn't listen.
But, in any case: I swear I won't let the lubby dubby crap infect this thread more than I already have.

So, on to actual suspicious shit... Anyone else notice P-Sleazy is online like, right now?
And how he's totally sitting back and laughing while I get piles of shit because he won't let me unvote him by unvoting me first.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

In retrospect that seems genuinely vindicative and accusationatory toward him because my sarcasm doesn't go over the internet well.
Please, if you would, add a "Hint hint hint" to the end of that post.

[Kerensky287]

So, on to actual suspicious shit... Anyone else notice P-Sleazy is online like, right now?
And how he's totally sitting back and laughing while I get piles of shit because he won't let me unvote him by unvoting me first.

That RAT BASTARD!

Unvote: Aldurin
Vote: P-Sleazy

...Wait a second.

KARESH IS JUST TRYING TO TAKE THE BLAME OFF OF HIS FELLOW MAFIATE!

Unvote: P-Sleazy
Vote: Karesh

Actually, screw it, I'm gonna go back and vote for Aldurin again.

Unvote: Karesh
Vote: Aldurin

FoS: Kerensky287 for waffling back and forth so damn much!

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

FOS: KERENSKY

TRYING TO TAKE SUSPICION OFF YOURSELF BY ACCUSING YOURSELF.
CLASSIC SCUM TACTIC.

[Kerensky287]

UnFoS: Kerensky287

[Revising Ocelot]

...see, all this bickering back and forth is why sticking with a proven anti-hatter is the smart(y) choice.

[Solid Snake]

ON TO SERIOUS STUFF

Since I'm playing, I'm gonna go ahead and say, the replacement thing was not a gambit at winning in any way. You can treat it as if it is or isn't, and keep judging based off of whatever you like, but it was entirely just being tired of being told that since I'm confident, I'm acting suspiciously.

Well since you're deadset on misrepresenting practically everything I've done so far as following under an umbrella of 'suspicion,' it's only fair that I be allowed to retort in kind. Personally, I haven't come to a definitive conclusion as to whether you're Scum or Town and to be frank I have bigger fish to fry, but since I do find your behavior somewhat inappropriate, I'll voice my objection to it.

To be blunt: Your enthusiasm in quickly rescinding your threat to abandon the game is even more suspicious to me than the threat itself. Everyone gets frustrated sometimes in Mafia (though I find your frustration at merely being accused of being scum due to confidence well overblown; what's strange is that I haven't been remotely aggressive against you compared to others, and you seemed very insulted by commentary from me that was comparatively timid.) There's even a history of folks threatening to quit when they're offended or when they feel their input is entirely disregarded.

But even Sifright last game, for all his faults and foibles, actually stuck with his stupid suicide threat longer than you did. It seems like the moment your threat to be Replaced was called out as kind of dumb, you immediately backed down. Maybe this should actually increase my level of faith that you're Town under your hopelessly flawed generalization of my arguments against you, because after all, you certainly weren't expressing confidence by abandoning your train of thought so quickly.

Beyond this, I don't appreciate you and Earl's repeated exaggerated misstatements regarding my positions. If I offer a balanced, nuanced articulation of my positions and offer evidence in support of said position, you can at least argue against the actual position I articulated as opposed to deliberately misconstruing the argument in a way that lets you badger an imaginary strawman.


Like, what's more likely, that rpg has this great meta-strategy of playing timid as town and outgoing as scum that just happens to line up with his role assignments thus far or that he simply is gaining confidence along with experience? The simple answer is the best answer.


Either possibility is feasible, though you're misconstruing my point regarding RPG from last game: I don't believe it'd be a conscious meta-strategy on his part, more a subconscious reaction to a comparative dearth of information and the lack of clarity that results in a Town role as opposed to a Scum role, in which he'd enjoy comparative clarity regarding his objectives.

It's worth noting that I've never once pressured RPG to the extent he appears to believe I have. He wasn't a target when I began the day. He became something more of a target due to his over-defensiveness and the fact that he apparently was so offended by a mere theory regarding his play that he's entered into a crusading mode, hellbent on trying to convince everyone I'm scum.

Like, here's a third possibility for you to toy with: Maybe there is no correlation between RPG's confidence and his level of play, and maybe RPG really is merely feeling more confident due to experience, but maybe RPG is an anti-Town role anyway, and maybe RPG's simply afraid that I'm left alive I'll continue to aggressively pursue him as I did last game under the pretense. In other words, RPG's over-defensiveness at the mere mention of the accusation suggests that he fears the logical consequence of the accusation.
Another way to put it: RPG could have happened to have been assigned anti-Town roles in his second and third games, and if so, it'd really irk him if he'd never have the chance to express himself confidently without being accused of potentially being anti-Town, whether the correlation exists or is based on a faulty premise.

In D1 in particular, I like to toss around accusations not so much to gauge the accuracy of the accusation itself (particularly since there's so little evidence in this game to work with) but rather to gauge responses to the accusations. Who casually lets it slide? Who becomes over-defensive? Who appeals to intellect? Who appeals to emotion? Who reacts differently to criticism in this game than in previous games? Is there a reason why they might behave differently, or might they have been assigned a different role? Etc.

More in a few moments.

[Solid Snake]

Okay he's back to normal now.

Pft. When I was ever not 'normal' (by Snake standards) this game?
Actually, this game's D1 so far has been closer to my traditional D1 performances than last game was, last game was more the aberration because I wasn't around when things started.

tbh it's probably because Snake has put this entire game in a "compare everything people are doing to everything people have done" sort of mindset.

Yes, let's pretend that Snake and Snake alone is the only player in this game with the capability of dictating the entire game, that way you can absolve yourselves and place all responsibility upon him for anything you dare dislike.

If you don't like the way things are going, stop responding with mere vague and ambiguous one-sentence posts that have added little to the conversation and actively change the dynamics, instead of passive-aggressively blaming me for 'ruining' your game. I'm one of 21 people here. Yes, I'm loud and obnoxious, but I haven't posted nearly as many Walls as I've been accused of, and I haven't controlled the flow of conversation in such a way as to prevent you all from going off on whatever tangent you'd like.



I... kinda see your logic here, but really? I never said I'd be open to a policy lynch on you. When I said 'policy lynch', I was referring to the Earl/Kerensky argument of "He writes too much, he's unproductive'. That's what a policy lynch is, isn't it? One that's based on playstyle rather than concrete suspicions.

Yes, but you see, that's exactly my point. Advocating or even passively abiding by a D1 policy lynch against someone for 'talking too much' D1 is almost as bad as No Lynching. It's wasting a critical lynch for Town and eliminating someone for whom you (by your own admission) possess minimal suspicions.

Like, here's the thing, Gem: If you're town? Your lynch is the only weapon you have. Sure, you might possess a power role or something, but at the end of the day the Town wins or loses games based largely on how effectively they use their lynch. So, if RPG or Earl wants to lynch me because they are actually suspicious of me for some reason? I'd obviously disagree with them, but at least they're justified in possibly being a pro-Town advocate by pushing a lynch on who they actually believe is Scum.

On the other hand, if you're like "I don't actually believe he's suspicious, but I won't oppose a policy lynch on him because I believe he's unproductive," that's a terrible attitude to have regarding a lynch. If you're Town, you need to either support or oppose a lynch. If you have mixed feelings, express your reservations or your doubts or why you see 'both possibilities,' but don't just rest on the intellectually lazy and anti-Town notion that you won't oppose a lynch of someone you think is probably a Townie for "policy" reasons.

For that matter, given my level of experience in Mafia, if you truly believed I was A) more likely than not Town, but B) liable for being lynched anyway due to an unproductive strategy, you would (as Town) attempt to rationalize and reason with me to drop the strategy, instead of passively noting you 'wouldn't oppose' a Snake lynch 'on policy grounds' but you think I'm Town anyway.

The former is a pro-Town way to combat the problem head-on and save the lynch for someone you harbor stronger suspicions against. The latter is an anti-Town strategy that simultaneously attempts to absolve you from personal liability or suspicion for my lynch once I flip, while nonetheless basically handing the keys over to Town and saying "You want him dead? He's all yours." And that's something Scum is much more likely to do than Town, for all the reasons I've already articulated.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

[COLOR="Magenta"]Yes, but you see, that's exactly my point. Advocating or even passively abiding by a D1 policy lynch against someone for 'talking too much' D1 is almost as bad as No Lynching. It's wasting a critical lynch for Town and eliminating someone for whom you (by your own admission) possess minimal suspicions.

Like, here's the thing, Gem: If you're town? Your lynch is the only weapon you have. Sure, you might possess a power role or something, but at the end of the day the Town wins or loses games based largely on how effectively they use their lynch. So, if RPG or Earl wants to lynch me because they are actually suspicious of me for some reason? I'd obviously disagree with them, but at least they're justified in possibly being a pro-Town advocate by pushing a lynch on who they actually believe is Scum.

Quite right.
To be clear I make a policy of not involving myself in the day one lynch because I can never make my mind up about anything so soon. But not lynching is just outright silly of us.
Barring the strangest of circumstances, we must lynch somebody.
I just don't wanna be the one to pick who it is, that's all.

[P-Sleazy]

Okay I've read most of the backlog, and I'm putting Karesh on my FOS for the moment, because she's being odd. I'd put Shyria there, but Shyria hasn't posted much and you're justified in posting silly shit on your first few posts on D1.

Still not changing my vote for the moment though.

Karesh is a chick? I always thought you were a dude.

[Solid Snake]

For my accusation against Snake, I do believe it is well-founded in the fact that Snake doesn't even seem to be trying to be helpful. His logic circles and calling everybody out at once is more disorienting than anything and I do think he may be trying to talk himself into such a strong pile of confusion that nobody can make a strong case against him not helping town.

"Calling everyone out at once?" So you think attempting to increase activity by basically articulating my feelings on everyone in a half-joking manner, without even actually accusing anyone of being 'Scum' or 'Town,' in hopes of sparking conversations is a 'call-out?' What?

Also: In exactly what way am I not attempting to "be helpful?" I've articulated my thoughts and suspicions in several cohesive posts, which is more than at least half the people in this game can say.

Eh, I'm cool with your Snake Conspiracy Theories because you're most likely going to be next to the firing range once I flip, but I'd strongly advise you find a way to state your case against me in a more factually substantive manner so you won't look so terrible after the fact. At least RPG's advanced arguments that could be construed as pro-Town lobbying against a suspected threat and not just saying "I totally dislike to read and I'm going to ambiguously call out Snake for being 'unhelpful'."

Here's a How Snake Plays Mafia Protip, though: I am almost always less controversial and 'in-your-face' provocative as Scum than as Town because when I'm a member of the Mafiate my scummates usually do not want me rabble-rousing. There's absolutely no excuse whatsoever for a Mafiate to sacrifice himself D1 when most D1 lynches are no-evidence crapshoots. If you truly believe I'm a Mafiate, you'd have to believe

...Or you'd have to do what Nikose basically did last game, which is to argue that I must be the SK because my behavior doesn't fit into Mafiate norms but you think I'm 'anti-Town' anyway. I'm often accused of being the SK as Town because it's difficult to reconcile my behavior as consistent with belonging to a scumteam or by any means coordinated with them.

I mean, look at the implications of me being Mafia now: if I were Scum, by rabble-rousing RPG and Earl it'd make it much easier for Town to expect that they're Town upon flipping an anti-Town role, right? And while that sentiment certainly could be WIFOMed to hell and back, the additional evidence alone is a boon to Town that Scum simply wouldn't want to give them D1. Remember, Scum generally likes to lurk, act comparatively inactive, and let Townies hunt themselves D1.

I was thinking on it even more, and I'm definitely feeling more comfortable (More CONFIDENT OMG) in voting Snake or Sifright. By saying that showing confidence = scum, they're trying to get me to theorize less, post less, and play less, which means worse things for the town.

Yes, RPG, the whole world revolves around you! Clearly my totally abhorrently Scum strategy was simply to shut you up with the 'confidence' argument, because I knew from the get-go that RPG was the one Townie I had to be completely and utterly afraid of speaking up. I wanted to stop your theories and even make you threaten to ragequit (because I totally knew you'd ragequit) because I was cowering in fear at what chaos you could cause.
...In fact, your application of logic there similarly applies to last game, which is why I was totally Scum in MLP Mafia, and why my efforts to accuse you of acting differently in being 'more confident' there was actually a trick to eliminate your participation as a Townie!

...Wait, you were actually the SK in MLP Mafia?
...And I was actually Zecora, a pro-Town role?
WHAT

...You're being over-defensive again. (Hopefully, my attempt to show that your exact same logic applied to the last game would have led Town to lynch a Townie supports that conclusion.)

There are more players in this game than you or I. The world does not revolve around us. And as Scum, I'm not going to antagonize you in the exact way you're describing and then not even aggressively attempt to vote you out or lead a lynch-train on you. You're being self-centered in accusing me of this plan to risk many things merely to remove your participation from the game, and trust me, if I were that dumb I'd never play Mafia again.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Snake's being too aggressive and self assured I think he's scum guys.

[Solid Snake]

And thus ends the latest round of "Snake posts another annoying Wall of Pink Text, leading Earl to have a Seizure"

Now for my top suspicions:

Geminex: ...Well, I still don't like the hedge, even though I feel slightly better about him than I did when I FOSed him. I don't feel like lynching Gem D1 because he can be a very productive Townie and I trust by D2 or D3 I'd have a much better read on him, but he's said a few things I find suspicious, and attempting to curry my sympathy my tossing in a law school reference into his post (while it may very well be true) is the oldest 'get Snake off your back' trick in the book. I'm hoping he becomes more aggressive in pursuing suspects.

Shyria: Just for general inactivity and not really giving us anything aside from a joke, though this may be due to this being her first game. (Has she played before?)

Smarty: Isn't it strange how the usually hugely controversial Smarty has not been hugely controversial or an active force so far this game? Like, so far he's barely be even mentioned as a potential lynch target. I find the lack of suspicion of Smarty suspicious. Are his scummates trying to keep him quiet in hopes that he lasts longer than usual? He's usually a D1 or N1 target.

Karesh:
Barring the strangest of circumstances, we must lynch somebody.
I just don't wanna be the one to pick who it is, that's all.
...That is a terrible thing to post for so many, many reasons, and it just reeks anti-Town vibes. As Town, the lynch is the only weapon you have! You have to be willing to pick or you are a liability to us!!!!
...Also, Karesh is in llluuurrrrvvveeee.

Fenris: ...I know you're a better player than this, Fenris.

As for RPG, I wouldn't support a D1 lynch on him. I really think y'all should wait until I'm inevitably killed off early either via lynch or nightkill, because RPG's playstyle right now is very heavily concentrated on knocking me out, so once you know my alignment and role you'll be in a fine position to judge exactly why he might consider me a threat.
The case against Earl is far better right now, at any rate.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

[COLOR="Magenta"]
Karesh:

...That is a terrible thing to post for so many, many reasons, and it just reeks anti-Town vibes. As Town, the lynch is the only weapon you have! You have to be willing to pick or you are a liability to us!!!!
...Also, Karesh is in llluuurrrrvvveeee.

No, no. I get it. I really do. If it really came down to it, I'd vote somebody. And I'm always up for defending somebody when I don't think they're quite as scummy as they're being made out...
I just feel pretty bad about being part of the lynch on Day One because I'm almost always entirely unsure about who's what. I've voted Day One in many games before, and whenever my target went through to lynch I can't remember ever being right.

...So I just kinda skip it.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

At that I guess I'll just come out and say that so far my favorite suspect is Smarty, followed by Al and then probably Fenris.

It's a weird sort of list because I can't really say I find any of them particularly scummy right now. But they're still the most suspicious.
That is to say I find Smarty sorta suspicious, Al kinda suspicious and Fenris fuck I need a third person for this list uhh who who who suspicious.

I know I'm not putting much of substance here but those are my thoughts and I haven't really got the time to actually present evidence. Only say that I've got a vibe about it.

I can't really act on that without any further evidence. And even if I did go through all of Smarty's posts (Since he's for whatever reason giving the "Acting weird" vibe the most) All that really demonstrates is he's acting differently, and there's a distinct lack of correlation between Smarty acting differently and Smarty acting scummy.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

That edit tag is because I accidentally hit the edit button and then hit save instead of cancel.
Also I deleted the part of my post that read

"I'm not sure any of this correlation between different behavior and scum behavior is entirely productive when taken to the capacity we're at. Snake got RPG last game with it, it's obviously a worthwhile thing to consider. But we need to look at other things as well. Even as I say that, I know I'm not putting much of substance here but those are my thoughts and I haven't really got the time to actually present evidence. Only say that I've got a vibe about it."

Since I'm already procrastinating more by posting this, I'll just say
hey
look at all the not unvoting me P-sleazy did.
Toodles!

[Bard The 5th LW]

Well, Smarty is acting more or less the same from my view here, but Smarty always seems to act a bit scummy. And in one game, he was town, and the next, Cult. So yeah, he's got a poker face, it might actually be worth just lynching him out of the fact that he is so weird to try and get a bead on, but I don't know? If he's acting differently, then he's acting LESS SCUMMY than usual which I guess might be scummy from him.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Well, Smarty is acting more or less the same from my view here, but Smarty always seems to act a bit scummy. And in one game, he was town, and the next, Cult. So yeah, he's got a poker face, it might actually be worth just lynching him out of the fact that he is so weird to try and get a bead on, but I don't know? If he's acting differently, then he's acting LESS SCUMMY than usual which I guess might be scummy from him.

I don't think we should make a habit of lynching anyone just because it's how they behave. I joke about lynching Nikose because the dude is nuts and you can't follow his logic most of the time but I still wouldn't lynch him day one every game just to make sure he couldn't do that.

Even if, iff pretty big if there, it was a good idea to lynch a player every game, it wouldn't be very fun for that player.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Partly why I didn't change my vote.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Partly why I didn't change my vote.

Right.
Carry on.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Karesh, stop editing your posts. If you really need to fix something, just double post.

[rpgdemon]

But even Sifright last game, for all his faults and foibles, actually stuck with his stupid suicide threat longer than you did. It seems like the moment your threat to be Replaced was called out as kind of dumb, you immediately backed down.



Actually, no, that never happened. I posted, then immediately after decided that I'd rather not be replaced based off of two people, with no posts between. This is just a blatant lie about what happened.

It's worth noting that I've never once pressured RPG to the extent he appears to believe I have. He wasn't a target when I began the day. He became something more of a target due to his over-defensiveness and the fact that he apparently was so offended by a mere theory regarding his play that he's entered into a crusading mode, hellbent on trying to convince everyone I'm scum.


Yes, I was defensive about it, because I was irked, because it's a touchy subject for me. As I said before, before this entire shebang began, I made a post in the helpstravaganza thread about the subject.

As much as you're saying that I'm completely misrepresenting what you're saying, you're just blatantly ignoring things that I say, and inventing your own narrative about what's happened in this thread, completely independent of what's actually happened.


Re: "On a crusade against you based on it". Again, just misrepresenting me. The whole "confidence" bit is just fluff. As I said before, you're going back into the tactic which you yourself said wasn't helpful for the town, last game. It's really easy for you to go, "Oh, well, no! I'm just being me! It's like before!", with this, and hope that people don't remember what you said/what transpired last game, but you dropped a lot of the crazy looping and traps, because of a post in which I said that it was just misinforming everyone in the town.

This game, you started out making NO analysis, which was decidedly unlike you. In response to people calling you out on that, you go into crazy-logic mode that you stopped doing mid last game.

[Solid Snake]

I suspect that RPG, if scum, is basically attempting to goad me into increasingly longwinded defenses of myself and my play so that he can argue I'm more interested in self-preservation than aiding Town. If so, bravo. Nonetheless, RPG's post is filled with enough ludicrousness to merit a Wall.

Actually, no, that never happened. I posted, then immediately after decided that I'd rather not be replaced based off of two people, with no posts between. This is just a blatant lie about what happened.

About as "blatant" of a lie as you misrepresenting a post I made in MLP Mafia suggesting your post "made me think" was akin to an admission that my entire D1 strategy was fatally flawed?

You can try characterizing your 'moment of weakness' however you want, I still think it was a petty indulgence that warrants suspicion, and whatever might have sparked your immediate change of heart, I'm not impressed by your reasoning. Your attempts to deflect my criticism by pointing out a minor misstatement take nothing away from the thrust of my argument. Your obsession over my commentary regarding your "confidence" is petty and immature, period, end of subject.

(How would you feel if I threatened to ragequit and threw a petulant tantrum at you just because you dared to insult my D1 play in this game? You can't get away with trying to paint any criticism of your play, whether flawed or accurate, as a personal affront or no one would ever be able to attempt to characterize your play lest they spark your over-defensive ire. The rational conclusion is either that you're over-defensive and exorbitantly sensitive to any statements made of you that could be interpreted as 'negative' or that you're scum and portraying yourself in this manner as a smart strategy to ensure that no one ever feels comfortable analyzing your play again. The fact that I'm actually choosing the former interpretation and not pressing for a lynch of you is, I suppose, not quite a compliment. )

Again, you seem hellbent on interpreting my criticisms of you as an aggressive campaign to 'out' you as scum or lead a lynch on you, when I'm not particularly invested in pressing that case.

But, beyond all the Mafia strategy; if you are seriously offended by merely (perhaps even erroneously!) characterizing your confidence as a scumtell, RPG, you need to quit this game and never play Mafia again. You went to the helpstravaganza thread to complain? C'mon, RPG; Mafia is a competitive game, and in this form of competitive game everyone will be analyzing every little thing you do and attempting to decipher whether it means you're Scum or Town! That is what we are supposed to do! Are you seriously albeit indirectly suggesting that we can't or shouldn't do that just because a conclusion that you are suspicious or may be scum may lead to some sort of breakdown?

As much as you're saying that I'm completely misrepresenting what you're saying, you're just blatantly ignoring things that I say, and inventing your own narrative about what's happened in this thread, completely independent of what's actually happened.

We're going to have to agree to disagree given that we each seem to believe that the other is creating an independent, baseless narrative, then.

Re: "On a crusade against you based on it". Again, just misrepresenting me. The whole "confidence" bit is just fluff. As I said before, you're going back into the tactic which you yourself said wasn't helpful for the town, last game.

Only:

1: I never said my D1 strategy in MLP Mafia was 'ineffective.' Your statement there constitutes the very sort of misrepresentation you're denying you're making and that you're accusing me of.

I actually thought my strategy was very effective. It led me to go 5 for 7 on D1 suspicions, may well have spooked Mafia into sacrificing Nikose to essentially claim a pseudo-investigative role in order to 'out' me as 'SK,' and let me dictate the tenor and flow of play in a manner I found insightful. I only felt I partially botched one element of one 'trap' I attempted, which led me to respond to your post with a very tepid and ambiguous statement that can't even really be classified as an agreement. After all, after I made that post, I went right back to the same style of play and didn't change my ways, and then I was Nightkilled.

It's really easy for you to go, "Oh, well, no! I'm just being me! It's like before!", with this, and hope that people don't remember what you said/what transpired last game, but you dropped a lot of the crazy looping and traps, because of a post in which I said that it was just misinforming everyone in the town.

Uh. No.
...No, RPG, no, I didn't.
I didn't try another gambit like I did with Nikose and IHMN in MLP Mafia. You got that much right. But that's not because "RPG showed me the light" or anything, that's just because it was D2, and my D2 play as Town is very different than my D1 play as Town. That's true for most experienced Mafia players.

...But really, let's be blunt here: At what point in this game have I attempted a trap in a manner comparable to the Nikose / IHMN situation? At one point did I shout "TRAPPED!" and unveil some epic convoluted scheme to catch anyone? You see the funny thing is, my gameplay between MLP and this game hasn't really changed, this is pretty much still same old Town Snake with his kooky Walls, but at the same time, there haven't been the exact kinds of crazy D1 gambits you're half-heartedly accusing me of making.

If you find any evidence that supports your conclusion, feel free to make me eat my hat. But I think all you'll find in this Mafia game are justifications of my playstyle and descriptions of the informational value of crazy D1 traps...and not, you know...any actual crazy D1 'traps.'

This game, you started out making NO analysis, which was decidedly unlike you. In response to people calling you out on that, you go into crazy-logic mode that you stopped doing mid last game.


First: NO analysis?
Man, I could write a Wall of Text just analyzing this completely inaccurate, incorrect and insulting misstatement.

Instead, let me ask me you a few basic questions:
1) I joined this Mafia game far earlier than in MLP Mafia. How the hell was I supposed to "initially" provide "analysis" when there was nothing but a couple joke votes to analyze? What "analysis" should I have provided when joking around in post #3 and post #5?
2) You accused me of acting "incredibly differently" as early as post #29. At that point, what kind of detailed logical analyses were you expecting me to make? How could I have contributed in any way comparable to my contributions in D1 or D2 of MLP Mafia when there's literally nothing to go off of? Should I have made up something to respond to with a Wall of Text?
3) How is this post (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1163317&postcount=42) in any way, shape or form less analysis than what anyone provided by post 42 in this topic? And, what "crazy logic mode epic trap" was I preparing in those comments? Unless the "crazy logic trap" I was planning was "I will TRAP everyone into actually initiating productive conversation and not joke-voting!" you have no case.

Second: Crazy-logic mode? What?
How exactly am I supposed to respond to such an ambiguous accusation?
What the hell is crazy-logic mode, anyway? Are you saying that none of my suspicions have incorporated detailed, factual analyses?

And are you implying that I'm Scum because my behavior is similar to what I did that you disliked in D1 of MLP Mafia,or because it's different?

TLDR: You seem to be arguing two incongruous ideas at the same time, namely:

A) "Snake is scum because he's attempting crazy Traps and acting kooky with convoluted disorienting schemes, which is precisely what he did as Town in the early stages of D1 in MLP Mafia,"
and B) "Snake is not acting logically as he did in MLP Mafia, in which he was Town, therefore in this game he is Scum."

Do you see the inherent contradiction?
...Because I can't think of any other way to spell it out for you.

[Fenris]

You want some serious insight?

Provide some actual content that I can provide insight at other than shouting matches that run in circles, and I'll do more than heckle from the sidelines, but in the meantime, if you and rpg and karesh and whoever the fuck else are going to continue to say the same things in different words, then I am going to continue to bide my time until we have some concrete information.

That is a run-on sentence.

And Snake, didn't I tell you during Homestuck Mafia that "I was going to try a different style of play" or something along those lines during that game? I don't really ever play consistently. I vary pretty wildly in terms of effectiveness, because I don't try to play the game formulaically.

[Solid Snake]

You want some serious insight?

Provide some actual content that I can provide insight at other than shouting matches that run in circles, and I'll do more than heckle from the sidelines, but in the meantime, if you and rpg and karesh and whoever the fuck else are going to continue to say the same things in different words, then I am going to continue to bide my time until we have some concrete information.

Yikes, Fenris with the uppercut!

I have tried to articulate suspicions (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1163916&postcount=114) in the hopes that I'd spur more conversation than just shouting matches before. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1163916&postcount=188) It's too bad you haven't noticed!

[Fenris]

It's hard to tell through all the shouting matches. I'll take a look and get you some opinions at some point in the near future, when it is not 12 AM and I am not supposedly working for real life moneys at a real life job.

[P-Sleazy]

I demand an answer to my questions!

Karesh is a chick?

[Solid Snake]

I demand an answer to my questions!

Clearly, we should policy-lynch you for attempting to use a Mafia game to pick up chicks.

(I am kidding!)

[rpgdemon]

You went to the helpstravaganza thread to complain?

No, I went to the helpstravaganza for help with this problem that I have, before the game started. As I said many times. I figured that being told that I need to be less confident to not be suspicious would be no fun, and just make things annoying to me to play, and then decided that I would quit, since multiple people were expecting it of me.

I then decided against quitting, since two people are not the entirety of the game, and I legitimately believe you and/or Sifright to be scum.

[BahamutFlare]

The two people I am most suspicious of are P-Sleazy and Shyria.

P-Sleazy has posted about 5 times. Most of them at the beginning and none of them have any insight or concrete information. All of them are jokes.

Shyria posted one vote for P-Sleazy and is now outta here. No reason. Seemed like a joke vote.

If you're confused and don't have any insight to add, then I like how Fenris acted. He just flat out stated it. He said he was active, but didn't have any clues. To me, that's seems less scummy than the jokes that Shyria and P-Sleazy made. I'd be curious to hear what everyone's thoughts are about these 2. Please?

[Fenris]

Yikes, Fenris with the uppercut!

I have tried to articulate suspicions (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1163916&postcount=114) in the hopes that I'd spur more conversation than just shouting matches before. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1163916&postcount=188) It's too bad you haven't noticed!


That was me being a better player than this.

why and how did you manage to link to the same post twice with different post numbers but I went and looked at the post you intended to link and I addressed it here

While this was indeed (kind of) my tactic in Homestuck Mafia, it's basically how I play regardless of the role I've been assigned. Right now, my m.o. is to call people out on playing the game poorly in the hopes that they will begin playing the game better.

Sooo, yeah. I've been addressing your grievances (albeit in response to Smarty who expressed the same grievances)

[Fenris]

If you're confused and don't have any insight to add, then I like how Fenris acted. He just flat out stated it. He said he was active, but didn't have any clues. To me, that's seems less scummy than the jokes that Shyria and P-Sleazy made. I'd be curious to hear what everyone's thoughts are about these 2. Please?

Shyria is new to mafia, and I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, for now, at least.

P-Sleazy (who I will intermittently refer to as B_real) is pretty much always like this forever. If you paid any attention to how Nikose acted during MLP Mafia, B_real is pretty much like that all the time forevers.

He's also pretty good at the game, so here's hoping he's town.

[Solid Snake]

That was me being a better player than this.

why and how did you manage to link to the same post twice with different post numbers but I went and looked at the post you intended to link and I addressed it here

...Woah, how did that happen? Did I...did I break NPF?

But I was more interested in your thoughts of many of my inklings, not just the ones specifically regarding whether you may or may not be scum.

[Sifright]

I suspect that RPG, if scum, is basically attempting to goad me into increasingly longwinded defenses of myself and my play so that he can argue I'm more interested in self-preservation than aiding Town. If so, bravo. Nonetheless, RPG's post is filled with enough ludicrousness to merit a Wall.



About as "blatant" of a lie as you misrepresenting a post I made in MLP Mafia suggesting your post "made me think" was akin to an admission that my entire D1 strategy was fatally flawed?

You can try characterizing your 'moment of weakness' however you want, I still think it was a petty indulgence that warrants suspicion, and whatever might have sparked your immediate change of heart, I'm not impressed by your reasoning. Your attempts to deflect my criticism by pointing out a minor misstatement take nothing away from the thrust of my argument. Your obsession over my commentary regarding your "confidence" is petty and immature, period, end of subject.

(How would you feel if I threatened to ragequit and threw a petulant tantrum at you just because you dared to insult my D1 play in this game? You can't get away with trying to paint any criticism of your play, whether flawed or accurate, as a personal affront or no one would ever be able to attempt to characterize your play lest they spark your over-defensive ire. The rational conclusion is either that you're over-defensive and exorbitantly sensitive to any statements made of you that could be interpreted as 'negative' or that you're scum and portraying yourself in this manner as a smart strategy to ensure that no one ever feels comfortable analyzing your play again. The fact that I'm actually choosing the former interpretation and not pressing for a lynch of you is, I suppose, not quite a compliment. )

Again, you seem hellbent on interpreting my criticisms of you as an aggressive campaign to 'out' you as scum or lead a lynch on you, when I'm not particularly invested in pressing that case.

But, beyond all the Mafia strategy; if you are seriously offended by merely (perhaps even erroneously!) characterizing your confidence as a scumtell, RPG, you need to quit this game and never play Mafia again. You went to the helpstravaganza thread to complain? C'mon, RPG; Mafia is a competitive game, and in this form of competitive game everyone will be analyzing every little thing you do and attempting to decipher whether it means you're Scum or Town! That is what we are supposed to do! Are you seriously albeit indirectly suggesting that we can't or shouldn't do that just because a conclusion that you are suspicious or may be scum may lead to some sort of breakdown?



We're going to have to agree to disagree given that we each seem to believe that the other is creating an independent, baseless narrative, then.



Only:

1: I never said my D1 strategy in MLP Mafia was 'ineffective.' Your statement there constitutes the very sort of misrepresentation you're denying you're making and that you're accusing me of.

I actually thought my strategy was very effective. It led me to go 5 for 7 on D1 suspicions, may well have spooked Mafia into sacrificing Nikose to essentially claim a pseudo-investigative role in order to 'out' me as 'SK,' and let me dictate the tenor and flow of play in a manner I found insightful. I only felt I partially botched one element of one 'trap' I attempted, which led me to respond to your post with a very tepid and ambiguous statement that can't even really be classified as an agreement. After all, after I made that post, I went right back to the same style of play and didn't change my ways, and then I was Nightkilled.



Uh. No.
...No, RPG, no, I didn't.
I didn't try another gambit like I did with Nikose and IHMN in MLP Mafia. You got that much right. But that's not because "RPG showed me the light" or anything, that's just because it was D2, and my D2 play as Town is very different than my D1 play as Town. That's true for most experienced Mafia players.

...But really, let's be blunt here: At what point in this game have I attempted a trap in a manner comparable to the Nikose / IHMN situation? At one point did I shout "TRAPPED!" and unveil some epic convoluted scheme to catch anyone? You see the funny thing is, my gameplay between MLP and this game hasn't really changed, this is pretty much still same old Town Snake with his kooky Walls, but at the same time, there haven't been the exact kinds of crazy D1 gambits you're half-heartedly accusing me of making.

If you find any evidence that supports your conclusion, feel free to make me eat my hat. But I think all you'll find in this Mafia game are justifications of my playstyle and descriptions of the informational value of crazy D1 traps...and not, you know...any actual crazy D1 'traps.'




First: NO analysis?
Man, I could write a Wall of Text just analyzing this completely inaccurate, incorrect and insulting misstatement.

Instead, let me ask me you a few basic questions:
1) I joined this Mafia game far earlier than in MLP Mafia. How the hell was I supposed to "initially" provide "analysis" when there was nothing but a couple joke votes to analyze? What "analysis" should I have provided when joking around in post #3 and post #5?
2) You accused me of acting "incredibly differently" as early as post #29. At that point, what kind of detailed logical analyses were you expecting me to make? How could I have contributed in any way comparable to my contributions in D1 or D2 of MLP Mafia when there's literally nothing to go off of? Should I have made up something to respond to with a Wall of Text?
3) How is this post (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1163317&postcount=42) in any way, shape or form less analysis than what anyone provided by post 42 in this topic? And, what "crazy logic mode epic trap" was I preparing in those comments? Unless the "crazy logic trap" I was planning was "I will TRAP everyone into actually initiating productive conversation and not joke-voting!" you have no case.

Second: Crazy-logic mode? What?
How exactly am I supposed to respond to such an ambiguous accusation?
What the hell is crazy-logic mode, anyway? Are you saying that none of my suspicions have incorporated detailed, factual analyses?

And are you implying that I'm Scum because my behavior is similar to what I did that you disliked in D1 of MLP Mafia,or because it's different?

TLDR: You seem to be arguing two incongruous ideas at the same time, namely:

A) "Snake is scum because he's attempting crazy Traps and acting kooky with convoluted disorienting schemes, which is precisely what he did as Town in the early stages of D1 in MLP Mafia,"
and B) "Snake is not acting logically as he did in MLP Mafia, in which he was Town, therefore in this game he is Scum."

Do you see the inherent contradiction?
...Because I can't think of any other way to spell it out for you.

http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab149/IStillHateMakingNames/rarityhead.gif

Euuurghhhhh, God damn it snake this is exactly the kind of shit I mean, The only reason you post in fucking huge walls of text is to shutdown all analysis of what you are actually saying. Everything you have stated there could be condensed down to far more manageable levels with out losing meaning. Stop doing the Republican bullshittery equivalent of filibustering in mafia games.

[Solid Snake]

Euuurghhhhh, God damn it snake this is exactly the kind of shit I mean, The only reason you post in fucking huge walls of text is to shutdown all analysis of what you are actually saying.

Bullshit.
I write Walls of Text all the time because that is what I do.
It is my modus operandi. It's a nulltell, meaning I'd do the same as Town or Scum.

Don't believe me? Check out the MLP Mafia game, where I wrote plenty of Walls as Town. Or check (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1009856&postcount=56) out (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1004156&postcount=46) all these (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1020840&postcount=50) unrelated (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1026650&postcount=43) posts (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1029384&postcount=38) where I (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1030789&postcount=14) do the (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1054990&postcount=1) same (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1055874&postcount=1) fucking (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1105236&postcount=4881) thing (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1110531&postcount=66) you're presently (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1119031&postcount=19) bitching over (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1119031&postcount=19) like a (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1122201&postcount=41) petulant (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1147416&postcount=47) illiterate child. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1162991&postcount=1475)

How's about you learn how to read, spend literally less than one minute (I actually just timed myself reading one of my longest Walls) digesting what I've read, and engage in intelligent discourse like a rational human being instead of pretending that I'm terrible at this because I actually expect you to be capable of dissecting the human language you presumably mastered as a young'un.

Oh no wait this is Sifright, sorry guys clearly I'm mistaken, under the Laws of Sifright any post longer than 500 characters in length is automatically illegitimate because he refuses to type more on that on average, and would prefer you spam the crap out the thread with tons upon tons of tiny posts that add nothing of consequence.

...Hey if you're going to insult my posting style, yours is fair game, bro.

[Geminex]

He does... kinda have a point, though. Not in regards to the length of your posts, the length is fine. I've always considered it dumb to accuse other people of writing too much, given that they probably spend more time writing than you do reading.

No, it's more... content, that I'm concerned with. Smarty mentioned High-information and Low-information posts a while ago, and Fenris made a pretty good point as well: For all the rapid-fire posting and walls of text that have been going around, I kinda get the feeling that this day 1 has less substance than the last. While, we've had a few suspects (myself included, sadly) and even one or two vote trains going, a lot of our (and your) efforts seem to have been focused on reiterating old points. There were points again Karesh, accusations against Aldurin, stuff like that, but that really just got chewed over once or twice and never went anywhere. And while you're not responsible for that, obviously, a lot of your posts have been increasingly-lengthy debates with RPGdemon, which seem to get into minutiae a lot more than they should. Mind you, posts like this one (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1163916&postcount=114) are great, even if they should happen to accuse me.

But the long RPGdemon conflict? The walls of text, the bickering, I honestly think it does more to distract from relevant issues than anything else. You said that, if I disagreed withh your strategy, telling you about those qualms is much more productive than even considering any kind of policy lynch, and you're right. Policy lynches are dumb, but I really think it'd help town if those walls of text focused less of RPGdemon and more on, well, the game as a whole.

Also, you didn't mention Earl on your list of suspects. 'sup with that? I agree with most of the remainder (except, possibly, shyria, and, y'know, myself), but Earl has been nothing but shifty. Pretty groudnless accusations and weird voting galore, plus the roleclaim. You don't find that fishy?

[Solid Snake]

Also, you didn't mention Earl on your list of suspects. 'sup with that? I agree with most of the remainder (except, possibly, shyria, and, y'know, myself), but Earl has been nothing but shifty. Pretty groudnless accusations and weird voting galore, plus the roleclaim. You don't find that fishy?

Eh, I'm cool with your Snake Conspiracy Theories because you're most likely going to be next to the firing range once I flip, but I'd strongly advise you find a way to state your case against me in a more factually substantive manner so you won't look so terrible after the fact. At least RPG's advanced arguments that could be construed as pro-Town lobbying against a suspected threat and not just saying "I totally dislike to read and I'm going to ambiguously call out Snake for being 'unhelpful'."


The case against Earl is far better right now, at any rate.

I've been suspicious of Earl. I dislike the early 'Nilla claim, I dislike his ambiguous posting record so far, and I certainly consider RPG's attacks against me to hold more objective merit. I just have a thing against going against those who roleclaim D1 in D1; I suppose this theoretically means a lots of Mafiates could escape D1 attention from me just by claiming, but in practice only one or two people tend to claim D1 anyway. And early claiming always invites the attention of every Investigative role under the sun (no, I'm not saying the PO has to or should investigate Earl now; just that doing so is essentially inevitable before Town reaches a crisis moment), and now any Tracker or Watcher could refute Earl's claim as well.

...In addition, Earl's...there's no good way to put this. But, he's kind of a poor player? Or at least, his play in MLP Mafia gave me that impression. His earlier play really has established this notion in my mind that Earl is definitely the kind of person who's going to be brazenly obvious by D2 or D3. If he's scum he's going to get caught in some lie down the line, he'll make a grievous error or commit a scumtell. Hell, he may commit the offense later 'today,' leading to an easy lynch. I don't know. I just feel I have bigger fish to fry.

On a more subjective level, I also dislike attempting to lead D1 lynches against my most vocal critics as Town because I'm a likely Nightkill target or future lynch. People like Earl and RPG will inevitably invite their share of scrutiny the moment I flip. I genuinely find it more useful to pursue targets who express indifference or even preferential treatment or respect towards me early, because they're the ones who might slip under the radar. Too many newbie Mafia players -- and I include RPG in this category, much to his chagrin -- are basically too easy swayed by personal antagonism; in other words, "Snake was mean to me earlier, therefore I'm prejudiced against him and every future statement he makes will be determined as scummy, facts be damned." It's too easy to fall into that kind of trap, and I never want to be in a position where a bias manipulates my feelings about Earl or RPG to such an extent that I believe "they must be scum, because they insulted my play and I'm offended." Better to be cautious about that.

In addition, I actually often find that most (not all, but most) of my most vocal early D1 critics -- even when Town -- are other Townies; the paranoia that comes with a lack of knowledge regarding my alignment often translates into attacks against me because I encourage controversy and invite criticism though my extensive activity. By contrast, Scum knows to be cautious because they know I'm not a Scummate and that drastically increases the odds that I'm a pro-Town role and that lynching me would result in consequences. Why pick a fight with me D1 when Townies might well bury me without their active instigation even being necessary? Why not passively express reservations about lynching me and then have the opportunity to say "You see guys? I told you Snake was Town, and now I think Player X is suspicious for gunning after Snake" after I die?

And: My callout to Shyria was pretty blatantly just an activity nudge. What concerns me is that I know she's been online but she hasn't been posting here, which reminds me a bit too much of Bob the Merc from last game to sit well. I know Shyria's usually the conscientious, dutiful type, and as Town all we have are the public topics to discuss things. But as Scum she'd probably be receiving lots of assistance as a relative Newbie over private channels, which would explain the inactivity.

I don't think a Shyria D1 lynch would necessarily be pragmatic, but she's worth keeping an eye on.

[Bard The 5th LW]

ugg i have school soon but i think my thought worked out, see you all around 3

[Sifright]

Bullshit.
I write Walls of Text all the time because that is what I do.
It is my modus operandi. It's a nulltell, meaning I'd do the same as Town or Scum.

Don't believe me? Check out the MLP Mafia game, where I wrote plenty of Walls as Town. Or check (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1009856&postcount=56) out (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1004156&postcount=46) all these (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1020840&postcount=50) unrelated (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1026650&postcount=43) posts (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1029384&postcount=38) where I (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1030789&postcount=14) do the (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1054990&postcount=1) same (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1055874&postcount=1) fucking (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1105236&postcount=4881) thing (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1110531&postcount=66) you're presently (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1119031&postcount=19) bitching over (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1119031&postcount=19) like a (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1122201&postcount=41) petulant (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1147416&postcount=47) illiterate child. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1162991&postcount=1475)

How's about you learn how to read, spend literally less than one minute (I actually just timed myself reading one of my longest Walls) digesting what I've read, and engage in intelligent discourse like a rational human being instead of pretending that I'm terrible at this because I actually expect you to be capable of dissecting the human language you presumably mastered as a young'un.

Oh no wait this is Sifright, sorry guys clearly I'm mistaken, under the Laws of Sifright any post longer than 500 characters in length is automatically illegitimate because he refuses to type more on that on average, and would prefer you spam the crap out the thread with tons upon tons of tiny posts that add nothing of consequence.

...Hey if you're going to insult my posting style, yours is fair game, bro.

Bull fucking shit. Utter and complete bullshit, your ad hominem attack aside Which by the way fuck you, You are completely misrepresenting what I am saying intentionally. The point is what you are saying is being needlessly fluffed up by complete and utter bullshit. Every salient point you have made could be made with out the ridiculously stupid amounts of fluff you inject between those points. Engaging in Intelligent discourse doesn't mean you include walls of fucking irrelevant shit between your actual information points, everything I've ever been taught with regards to engineering and science has always hammered in that you want to have your information presented in a short and concise form, but fine if you want to play the direct attack game then sure it's hardly surprising some one enrolled to become a lawyer is writing enormous walls of text with little content and huge amounts of 'fluff' to help obfuscate, and kill peoples ability to actually respond to your texts.

It's a null tell because you will play the same way regardless of whether you are scum or town because writing those massive fluff posts make it incredibly difficult for others to actually rip your posts apart from the tiny morsels of information that can be gleaned. Your insights should not be armoured by so much useless fucking fluff.

banging on about your game play in previous mafia games and how you played them is completely fucking irrelevant. There is no proof you are town and going but look I'm acting the same makes no fucking difference for some one who is as experienced as you claim you should fucking know that, by the way seriously quit fucking attacking every one personally that disagrees with you. You did it with Rpg and now your doing it with me. Me calling you out for making ridiculous fluff posts is not the same as directly insulting the user behind the post your doing the latter and not the former.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Well Sif made a lot of my post for me. In shoret, Snake's post are overtly personal, seem really insulting towards who they arew posted at, and don't feeel like they contribute much regardless of length. I didn't even feel like that is MLP mafia! But I do get the distinct feeling of that now.

So yeah, I am actually strongly considering a Snake lynch just to end it.

[Revising Ocelot]

I feel that if these 'chewing the cud' walls are going to pop up every 3 posts, the Magenta needs to be toned down.
He did get quite personal with his attacks in the MLP Mafia too, mind, but it's notched up a few degrees here. Bloody hell.

##Unvote: Smarty
##Vote: Snake

Yeah, this is a policy lynch vote. You're too abusive and you're inviting others to make abusive attacks in retaliation, and I'm honestly thinking of dropping out the game if this continues to happen. I don't want to participate in a Flame Wars game, otherwise I'd go onto 4Chan.

Feel free to attack my reasoning, it's not like I have the willpower to make any half-hearted attempt at defense.

[Solid Snake]

Me calling you out for making ridiculous fluff posts is not the same as directly insulting the user behind the post your doing the latter and not the former.

For the last fucking time; I'm insulting your playstyle and the manner in which you write Mafia posts and the way you play the game of Mafia and not you as a person, learn to make the damned distinction. You're a fine person. An awful Mafia player, as your most recent explosion has undoubtedly proven, but a damned likable and admirable human being.

...And yes, if you're going to insult my "Walls of Text" playstyle by suggesting that I'm interjecting "fluff" when I genuinely believe I'm doing nothing but making salient points, then I feel damned entitled to toss the same level of vitriol right back at you. I waste a lot of time on that "fluff," out of a competitive streak, a desire to win, genuine time wasted attempting to be productive, whatever you want to call it. Saying my walls, which I spend an awful lot of fucking time rationalizing, amount to mere 'fluff' is an insult of my playstyle and writing ability and will lead to a similar response. Characterizing my behavior as 'Scummy' is one thing, calling it 'useless' is quite another. I can deal with people misinterpreting my posts as possessing a different agenda or goal than I intended, but to say that it's valueless crosses a line with me, just as my own comments have apparently crossed a line with you.

I don't blame you for feeling aggravated or confused or whatever with my writing style, because it's clear we have very different writing preferences; you prefer short and concise, and I have a ludicrously well-established history of preferring drawn-out essays. Whether your style is better than mine seems a purely subjective sentiment unless you're willing to actually make the effort to provide nuanced, quoted examples of specific tidbits I've written that you consider 'fluff.' Do so and maybe I'll be swayed. How is your criticism constructive? How am I supposed to know what it is I'm even writing that constitutes 'fluff?'

TLDR: There's no separate rules of conduct for you and Snake; if you're going to toss shit at someone you better learn how to receive criticism as well as you give it. I am not a resident punching bag. You can't slam a fist into me and act shocked and appalled when you're hit in response.

Bull fucking shit. Utter and complete bullshit, your ad hominem attack aside Which by the way fuck you, You are completely misrepresenting what I am saying intentionally. The point is what you are saying is being needlessly fluffed up by complete and utter bullshit.

Oh, yes, because what I've said is clearly egregious ad hominem, but saying "what you are saying is being needlessly fluffed up by complete and utter bullshit," why there's no possible way whatsoever to interpret that offensively. Psh.

Personally, I'm actually not offended with the "insults" you've written. I've said it before and I'll say it again; insulting playstyles is par for the course with Mafia, it happens along with a torrent of related criticism as people try to decipher allegiance and is a natural byproduct of a competitive gaming atmosphere. It's like you calling me nasty obscenities while we're using nasty tricks against each other to win a game of Smash Brothers or Halo; it's par for the course.

I am, however, offended by your attempt to escape any scrutiny unharmed by relying on ad hominem as a defense from my attacks while simultaneously attacking me with the exact same "ad hominem" strategy you're decrying against yourself. Don't get holier than thou with me.

Engaging in Intelligent discourse doesn't mean you include walls of fucking irrelevant shit between your actual information points,

Please identify an example of a Wall of Irrelevant Shit, k thx
Also I do apologize for those Walls wherever they may be, I'll be sure to provide nearly three hundred posts or more than twice as many posts as any other Mafia participant in this game of vacant and vacuous content in the future. That is a far superior Mafia strategy, and apparently one you consider far less annoying!

everything I've ever been taught with regards to engineering and science has always hammered in that you want to have your information presented in a short and concise form, but fine if you want to play the direct attack game then sure it's hardly surprising some one enrolled to become a lawyer is writing enormous walls of text with little content and huge amounts of 'fluff' to help obfuscate, and kill peoples ability to actually respond to your texts.

...Are you going to insult my profession now? And you accuse ME of completely unrelated ad hominem?

It's a null tell because you will play the same way regardless of whether you are scum or town because writing those massive fluff posts make it incredibly difficult for others to actually rip your posts apart from the tiny morsels of information that can be gleaned. Your insights should not be armoured by so much useless fucking fluff.

I'll just say I honestly disagree.
...I mean, I'm certain not every sentence of my Walls possesses incredible value, and yeah, I could probably be more concise if I really wanted to treat every post in a Mafia game like an essay and spend countless minutes dissecting and shortening what I've written.

But all in all? I think I've posted more legitimate content, legitimate suspicions, legitimate thoughts regarding a multitude of players in this thread than the vast majority of other participants here.

I mean maybe you'd prefer I posted hardly anything, maybe it'd make this an easier game for you to win if you were Scum or a less intensive commitment if you're Town, but that's just not the way I play. Demanding me to change who I am in order to play a Mafia game is a surefire way to limit my own productivity and participation in the same way that you're insinuating that my Walls presumably 'discourage' others from participating. It's a great strategy if you're Scum and you want to shut me up, but a worse strategy under other circumstances.

[Sifright]

check (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1009856&postcount=56) out (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1004156&postcount=46) all these (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1020840&postcount=50) unrelated (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1026650&postcount=43) posts (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1029384&postcount=38) where I (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1030789&postcount=14) do the (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1054990&postcount=1) same (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1055874&postcount=1) fucking (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1105236&postcount=4881) thing (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1110531&postcount=66) you're presently (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1119031&postcount=19) bitching over (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1119031&postcount=19) like a (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1122201&postcount=41) petulant (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1147416&postcount=47) illiterate child. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1162991&postcount=1475)

How's about you learn how to read, spend literally less than one minute (I actually just timed myself reading one of my longest Walls) digesting what I've read, and engage in intelligent discourse like a rational human being instead of pretending that I'm terrible at this because I actually expect you to be capable of dissecting the human language you presumably mastered as a young'un.

Oh no wait this is Sifright, sorry guys clearly I'm mistaken, under the Laws of Sifright any post longer than 500 characters in length is automatically illegitimate because he refuses to type more on that on average, and would prefer you spam the crap out the thread with tons upon tons of tiny posts that add nothing of consequence.

...Hey if you're going to insult my posting style, yours is fair game, bro.

Right because thats not you attacking the person behind the text you arrogant berk.

[Sifright]

As bookworm stated not to edit posts, Yes i'm double posting only half of your post actually commented on my posting style which changed during the last mafia game to the better, the only reason you brought that up was to personally attack me and try to discredit me it has nothing to do with this game because i'm not actually posting like that.
In conclusion fuck off

[Solid Snake]

Right because thats not you attacking the person behind the text you arrogant berk.

Yes, it is going to annoy the crap out of me if you insinuate that you think I'm Scum because you refuse to actually take 30 seconds to read stuff I take a damned long time thinking about and typing. But even then, what annoys me isn't "who you are," it's how you've chosen to "play the game." You're a smart person, one who's intelligent and capable of investing the minimal time and effort necessary to read a post in under sixty seconds and respond to it appropriately.

I'm not going to be soft and gentle in criticizing you when what you express against me isn't even a criticism that I'm 'scum' or 'anti-Town,' but rather a sentiment that you're too lazy to read my efforts to contribute and that you choose to believe that my serious efforts to articulate actual points constitute 'pointless fluff.'

[Sifright]

Yes, it is going to annoy the crap out of me if you insinuate that you think I'm Scum because you refuse to actually take 30 seconds to read stuff I take a damned long time thinking about and typing. But even then, what annoys me isn't "who you are," it's how you've chosen to "play the game." You're a smart person, one who's intelligent and capable of investing the minimal time and effort necessary to read a post in under sixty seconds and respond to it appropriately.

I'm not going to be soft and gentle in criticizing you when what you express against me isn't even a criticism that I'm 'scum' or 'anti-Town,' but rather a sentiment that you're too lazy to read my efforts to contribute and that you choose to believe that my serious efforts to articulate actual points constitute 'pointless fluff.'


I didn't once call you scum in my post. (reading comprehension problems or prehaps you are being to defensive?)

[Solid Snake]

I didn't once call you scum in my post. (reading comprehension problems or prehaps you are being to defensive?)

Reading comprehension problems? If you read what I wrote you'd realize what I'm trying to say is that I'd much rather see you call me 'Scum' or 'Anti-Town' than accusing me of wasting even more of my own time than yours by 'writing pointless fluff.'

[Sifright]

Reading comprehension problems? If you read what I wrote you'd realize what I'm trying to say is that I'd much rather see you call me 'Scum' or 'Anti-Town' than accusing me of wasting even more of my own time than yours by 'writing pointless fluff.'

Well I have to give you kudos for enraging me enough that I literally misread your post due to personal bias. Yes I can accept that I misread that post but if your honestly trying to claim you were simply criticizing the content of my post and the style it was made in thats alot of crap. You brought up the previous game as a way to discredit me when I've already changed from that style Hell i changed away from that style during that very game. You are attacking my self and other directly in your posts you may think you are going for their content or style but you simply are not prehaps you have reacted as emotively as I just did but stop take a look at what you wrote. Don't try to excuse it just look at it and imagine how it comes across to others, I my self can't see how you could write

"Oh no wait this is Sifright, sorry guys clearly I'm mistaken, under the Laws of Sifright any post longer than 500 characters in length is automatically illegitimate because he refuses to type more on that on average, and would prefer you spam the crap out the thread with tons upon tons of tiny posts that add nothing of consequence."

and not expect that be taken as personal attack given it actually has no fucking relevance on the current game, by the way I've no problem actually reading your long ass posts except when being insulted directly anger has an amazing way making you dumber, I've said previously that I can and will dissect your posts regardless of length that doesn't make it any more or less annoying to do and there are plenty of damn posters who when hit by your mounds of text do the opposite and shut up and give up.


...Are you going to insult my profession now? And you accuse ME of completely unrelated ad hominem?

Yes by that point I was already writing emotively because you managed to upset me with your DIRECT attacks on my OLD style of posting which you attempted to use to discredit me CURRENTLY.

Ridiculing a person is not the same as criticizing them.

[Solid Snake]

You brought up the previous game as a way to discredit me when I've already changed from that style Hell i changed away from that style during that very game.

RPG and others have brought up my behavior in the most recent MLP game as a way to discredit me. Smarty did vigorously criticize my playstyle in the previous game. While I argued against RPG's points and I debated Smarty's interpretation of my playstyle, at no point did I attempt to discredit their arguments by throwing a hissy fit and simply labeling their behavior as ad hominem.

You are attacking my self and other directly in your posts you may think you are going for their content or style but you simply are not prehaps you have reacted as emotively as I just did but stop take a look at what you wrote. Don't try to excuse it just look at it and imagine how it comes across to others, I my self can't see how you could write

"Oh no wait this is Sifright, sorry guys clearly I'm mistaken, under the Laws of Sifright any post longer than 500 characters in length is automatically illegitimate because he refuses to type more on that on average, and would prefer you spam the crap out the thread with tons upon tons of tiny posts that add nothing of consequence."

and not expect that be taken as personal attack given it actually has no fucking relevance on the current game, by the way I've no problem actually reading your long ass posts except when being insulted directly anger has an amazing way making you dumber, I've said previously that I can and will dissect your posts regardless of length that doesn't make it any more or less annoying to do and there are plenty of damn posters who when hit by your mounds of text do the opposite and shut up and give up.

Sure, it's an offensive and perhaps even an erroneous interpretation of your playstyle.

It was designed to be. It was in response to your offensive and erroneous interpretation of my playstyle. Perhaps the subtlety eluded you, but much of my argument was simply trying to show you how ludicrous it was to watch you insult my writing habits with my superfluous Walls of Text and then express utter indignation when your own writing habits were placed under similar scrutiny.

What I am failing to understand is how you are distinguishing your comments (and remember, you started this) from my own. What was I supposed to say, when you insinuated that my lengthy and time-consuming efforts to contribute positive content were not even merely 'Scummy' or 'hiding an anti-Town agenda' but actually pointless and of negligible value? Was I supposed to just say "Oh yes, Sifright, you're completely and utterly right, I shall worship to your altar of insight, how foolish of me to basically approach a Mafia game the way Snake approaches any other topic or event on NPF, clearly I must never write anything again for any contribution I attempt shall be sullied by my fruitless Walls of indigestible text?" Or might I actually be allowed to defend my own habits while contrasting them with your history of contributions?

Is the rule at NPF that Snake can and should be expected to take all kinds of insults, but Lord and Mods Forbid if Snake ever slings an arrow back?

For the umpteenth millionth time: This doesn't bother me. I've been insulted in Mafia games before. I have been insulted far worse than either one of us have just insulted each other in Mafia games before. I can literally copy-paste excerpts from past Mafia games and you wouldn't even believe the degree of CAPS-LOCKED VITRIOL in the games. I once got into an arguing match with a woman on B8 in which we practically were screaming at each other and she was so livid with me I thought she'd never talk to me again, and then a week after the game was over, much to my own shock, we were cool.

But for Heaven's sake, don't make me out into some kind of terrible troll of a person over this disagreement. I'd much rather be policy-lynched and just wash my hands of Mafia on this board altogether under an assumption that y'all just can't handle how intense the criticism in Mafia games can get under the competitive strain of the suspicion and the paranoia than stick around and get brow-beaten under some erroneous assumption that I personally despise you because how dare you prefer short concise posts or whatever.

(Just keep in mind after I flip that there's an increased likelihood that everyone who readily agrees to policy-lynch me is Scum, because for reasons I've already articulated, Scum loves the free chance to knock off a Townie with a policy-lynch and emerge with clean hands.)

[Sifright]

Okay let me make this as short as possible for you to understand.

How are you conflating "Your posts are obnoxiously long please make them more concise" with "Sifright your comments about my posting show what a stupid illiterate fool you are and only a moron would ever ask for that especially give how stupid your posting was last game"

There is a line you are professing that you aren't crossing which you are doing massively whilst decrying that others attacked you first the difference is severity you didn't just escalate the criticism/attack slightly you went from pea shooter to atomic bomb. The post that set this off was set in a slightly jokey tone but was hoping to get you write more concisely. Now your retroactively rewriting the narative to seem like you were the first one attacked.

/me shakes his head.

[rpgdemon]

For the last fucking time; I'm insulting your playstyle and the manner in which you write Mafia posts and the way you play the game of Mafia and not you as a person, learn to make the damned distinction. You're a fine person. An awful Mafia player, as your most recent explosion has undoubtedly proven, but a damned likable and admirable human being.

Then why did you rage out when he insulted your wall of texts and say, and I quote:

Oh no wait this is Sifright, sorry guys clearly I'm mistaken, under the Laws of Sifright any post longer than 500 characters in length is automatically illegitimate because he refuses to type more on that on average, and would prefer you spam the crap out the thread with tons upon tons of tiny posts that add nothing of consequence.

That's not his posting style there you're insulting, you're saying that's Sifright.

...Hey if you're going to insult my posting style, yours is fair game, bro.

Except that all the insult of players that happened in your post, because you got super-defensive and angry about someone DARING to say something bad about your posting style. If I'm wrong for wanting to quit because your way of throwing suspicion on me happened to line up with a very real problem that I've been having for awhile now and it was going to be no fun, you're very much in the wrong for starting to sling insults because someone's way of throwing suspicion on you is not by insulting you, but by insulting the way that you post. Snake, you have to learn that in a Mafia game, you're not insulting the player, but the thoughts behind the post, and you can't take any of this personally, because they're just criticizing your play. [/ohwaitlookyoudidittoobutwayworse]

[rpgdemon]

http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab149/IStillHateMakingNames/rarityhead.gif

Euuurghhhhh, God damn it snake this is exactly the kind of shit I mean, The only reason you post in fucking huge walls of text is to shutdown all analysis of what you are actually saying. Everything you have stated there could be condensed down to far more manageable levels with out losing meaning. Stop doing the Republican bullshittery equivalent of filibustering in mafia games.

Like, this is that horribly offensive post that you felt the need to personally berate Sifright over.

He's insulting your posting style, plain and simple. You have a long running problem with being seen as anything Republican-like (In every thread they're mentioned, you go off the handle making sure that you say, "I HAVE TO SUPER PROVE MYSELF NOT A REPUBLICAN BECAUSE OF HOW MUCH I WAS BEFORE"), I have a long running problem of being seen as incompetent.

You get angry because your posting style is insulted in the way that you have a problem with. You start throwing personal attacks against Sif.

I got angry because my posting style was insulted in the way that I have a problem with. (Well, actually, I was angry because people kept going "confidence = something's wrong with RPG". Posting style or not, it says a lot that you'd say that.) I wanted to quit.

Just cool it.

[Solid Snake]

He's insulting your posting style, plain and simple. You have a long running problem with being seen as anything Republican-like (In every thread they're mentioned, you go off the handle making sure that you say, "I HAVE TO SUPER PROVE MYSELF NOT A REPUBLICAN BECAUSE OF HOW MUCH I WAS BEFORE"), I have a long running problem of being seen as incompetent.

I can assure you that absolutely nothing that's happened has anything to do with the Republican comment, because to be quite blunt I didn't even notice the Republican insult buried in there. (Though it's interesting that you don't perceive that as remotely ad hominem.)

And you've clearly failed to read much of my inglorious Walls, because pretty much my entire point acknowledged and in fact articulated the fact that I believed that Sifright was merely insulting my playstyle, and in fact I was not initially terribly offended. The discrepancy appears to be that you and Sifright believe that my attempts to "insult his playstyle back" were ad hominem attacks when I contend that they weren't.

I mean hell, I'm 'insulted' far worse, completely unprovoked, by people like KP nearly every time I log into the NPF Chat. And you're going to tell me by comparison that chiding Sifright for being 'illiterate' because he sees no value in text I work damned hard to type is far, far worse? No it ain't. This isn't about what I said to Sifright; this is simply you trying to justify your own beef with me by painting me as a No Good, Very Bad Person.

[rpgdemon]

I can assure you that absolutely nothing that's happened has anything to do with the Republican comment, because to be quite blunt I didn't even notice the Republican insult buried in there. (Though it's interesting that you don't perceive that as remotely ad hominem.)


I see if as being deliberately chosen to be worded as such to offend you, but that's still just digging at your posting, saying that you talk too much around the point instead of talking about the point.

[Solid Snake]

I see if as being deliberately chosen to be worded as such to offend you, but that's still just digging at your posting, saying that you talk too much around the point instead of talking about the point.

There's absolutely no difference whatsoever between
Sifright choosing the Republican reference in a manner "deliberately worded to offend me" in the process of proving a negative point about my posting, and me tossing in illiteracy references to "deliberately worded to offend him" more than necessary in making a negative point about his posting.
(And I had a valid point about his posting habits, too, namely that the notion of being lectured about posting Walls was ludicrous from someone who rightfully was bashed last game for typing one sentence fluff posts and sincerely believing that was 'constructive content.')

The line you're drawing is entirely artificial, is all I'm saying.
And I can't reiterate this enough, this shit happens in Mafia games, WORSE shit happens in Mafia games, hell, worse trash talking and competitive insults of skills and tactics happens in just about every competitive board game or sports experience I've ever played, watched, or participated in at any level. Last game we made similarly derogatory comments about Nikose. And Verified! We collectively -- myself included -- chewed Verified out. About the only defense you could have as to why it was cool to basically label Verified childish and illiterate and incomprehensible while similar comments don't fly with Sifright now is that you personally agreed with the comments against Verified and that your personal opinion of the commentary justified the language.

...Which, come to think of it, is very similar to the argument that your acceptance of Sifright trying to pour salt down a wound regarding my playstyle by randomly introducing Republicans into the fray can be readily contrasted with your denial of me generalizing Sifright's abhorrence of 'fluffy' Walls of Text as stemming from childish laziness really is just a matter of bias. You agree with one insult of one's playstyle and disagree with another; therefore, you're not opposed to any perception of ad hominem generally, you're just to opposed to specific iterations of "ad hominem" for subjective reasons.

[Geminex]

If could find a picture of a crying hat, I would totally post it right now.

Seriously, guys, calm down? Please? Maybe just take a break from this game for an hour or two? I get that people are pissed, but this is anything but constructive. No matter who started it.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

The line you're drawing is entirely artificial, is all I'm saying.
And I can't reiterate this enough, this shit happens in Mafia games, WORSE shit happens in Mafia games, hell, worse trash talking and competitive insults of skills and tactics happens in just about every competitive board game or sports experience I've ever played, watched, or participated in at any level. Last game we made similarly derogatory comments about Nikose. And Verified! We collectively -- myself included -- chewed Verified out. About the only defense you could have as to why it was cool to basically label Verified childish and illiterate and incomprehensible while similar comments don't fly with Sifright now is that you personally agreed with the comments against Verified and that your personal opinion of the commentary justified the language.

I know you're used to playing Mafia somewhere else where everything is entirely serious and vitriol is cast around like so much candy on Halloween but this is NPF.
You might want to keep in mind that one of the reasons mafia was temporarily banned from this board was that Moderators had trouble actually moderating. How are they to know what's just part of the game and what's genuine insults?

[rpgdemon]

Didn't you say in other threads that you want to be berated for incorrect views, and that if no one's doing that and they treat views that are incorrect as if they have equal merit, then no one would ever learn anything?

Since what's happening here is you have the view of your walls of text are useful to the town, and it's decidely incorrect. No one in the town gets substance about you out of them, and you say you're setting traps and such that only you can decipher against other people with them. That hurts the town more than it helps it, since it forces a reliance on you, who may not even be a town player!

Sif and I posted equally large walls of text last game, when we were going at eachother, but ours were full of quotes and reasons to back up what we were saying. Analyze things, and give reasons, don't just talk a lot about them, is what people are saying.

In fairness to you:

I wouldn't agree with berating Verifiedz like this, and never saw that in the thread last game. I probably shouldn't agree with berating you like this either, but I actually honestly believe that you're scum, and if you get lynched via policy or via people suspecting you, it accomplishes the same thing: A day one hit on scum.

I agree that the reason that I'm not in arms about Sif's posting as well is because of personal bias. I don't think you're a horrible person, I don't even think you're a mediocre person, I think you're fine, but I also think that you're definitely scum. I have a strong conviction of this, and I would like to see you get lynched, so that the scum take a hit. If it's a policy lynch, or if it's a lynch-lynch, it doesn't matter to me, as it gets the same effect.

[Sifright]

Actually, I didn't choose that phrase because I wanted to offend I choose it because it was the most apt comparison.

Secondly, my short posts were not 'fluffy' the content of the posts was fine the length however wasn't it's what lead to me making several posts in quick succession, I later remedied this by instead of making making several posts in quick succession instead collating it into one post. You have once again stated that because of an action I took in the previous game all criticism that comes from me now is utterly worthless, should I dismiss all your intellectual views because you were once a republican? No that would be just as stupid as what you are doing with me.

Regarding your chewing out of Verifiedz, actually I didn't accept that I thought it was in poor taste at the time and I asked you guys to knock it off because he was quite young. Most people in competitive environments do not like trash talking which is basically what you are labeling as 'constructive criticisim'

[Professor Smarmiarty]

*Comes in to catch up on thread*
..............
I don't know what this shit is but it sure isn't mafia. It sure isn't fun either.
I have heaps of thoughts on who to boot and shit but fuck this. I ain't playing unless we get some adults in here.

Like if Snake is even a quarter as good as he says he is his bitchfest is a strategy and not an actual bitchfest and i know what ihe is attempting to achieve with it if it is. But that's not cool. Don't use that strategy, it ruins the game for eveyrone and its not fun.

FFS everyone. I want to see everyone calm down first before we proceed.

Simple guide for the future- type your post, read your post, think " is this the kind of post a cunt would make" if the answer is yes, don't post it. Even if its "strategy".

[Professor Smarmiarty]

And no Snake, this is not just part of mafia. I've played about 50 mafia games and only about 2 of them got into name-calling and bitchining like we've seen on this thread. I left those boards and didn't come back.
If people want to play mafia like that there are plenty of places they cna do that. That shit ain't acceptable here.
Criticise the posts, not the poster. It's not that difficult. Back in the old mafia on here we had heaps of games without anybody insulting anyone and everybody remaining civil. It's not mafia, it's you guys.

[Geminex]

*Comes in to catch up on thread*
..............
I don't know what this shit is but it sure isn't mafia. It sure isn't fun either.
I have heaps of thoughts on who to boot and shit but fuck this. I ain't playing unless we get some adults in here.

Like if Snake is even a quarter as good as he says he is his bitchfest is a strategy and not an actual bitchfest and i know what ihe is attempting to achieve with it if it is. But that's not cool. Don't use that strategy, it ruins the game for eveyrone and its not fun.

FFS everyone. I want to see everyone calm down first before we proceed.

Simple guide for the future- type your post, read your post, think " is this the kind of post a cunt would make" if the answer is yes, don't post it. Even if its "strategy".

Full disclosure: Just repped smarty for this post. Cause it is truth.

[greed]

Full disclosure: Just repped smarty for this post. Cause it is truth.

Same here. I wanted to post something similar but I've just finished a 13 hour day, am thus utterly knackered and couldn't word it right.

I'll have a higher content post later or more likely tomorrow for me cause this is going to take more effort to dissect than I care to invest at 10:30pm after a long ass day. Preliminary judgement is agreeing with Smarty that this is probably an unpleasant tactic of Snake's. Not sure if it's a town tactic to agitate scum into slipping or a scum tactic to drive down participation by making the the thread toxic though.

[Geminex]

I don't even think that this is a tactic, honestly. I just agree with smarty that this is not the way to play a game of mafia.

[Inbred Chocobo]

What the hell were you people doing here after I posted?

Unvote: Whoever

Vote: Sifright and Snake AT THE SAME TIME

No I'm not actually allowed to do that, but I'm doing it anyway.

Snake: Your posts contain detailed reasoning about a lot of different steps to how to come to certain conclusions. The problem with this is that you end up explaining a lot of different little details that don't all seem to converge into one topic, and then things feel a little garbelled and the original intent of the post is lost. This is why your posts are being seen as less that optimal and worth less than the normal, because I believe your current essay style it a bit more difficult to understand in passing than the average post. I'm still confused on what some of your posts were trying to accomplish, but I think its more of style and trying to get people to understand than due to anything.

Sifright: Your use of language in the situation is making you come across incredibly harsh, and people are taking real offense to it. I would suggest you cut out the language some. This was why Snake reacted the way he did to your criticism. Snake's aggrievated response was due to your bait, and you got it.

Everyone else: I want this to be the final post about this whole arguement, please post about different issues or accusations. I understand you are trying to help, but if we keep this arguing or bringing up the situation (coming from the guy posting about it ha) then it won't die down.

For the both of you, take a minute to lean back, maybe grab a drink, and think about something different. If you think about mafia over and over again, its just going to get harder and you aren't going to make any friends.

Now that that is over with, onto what I want to contribute to the thread.

Shyria still hasn't posted. So she probably isn't reading this thread or something, I don't know. She feels like just a freakin inactive, and honestly, that tends to happen when the person doesn't have any realy attachments. Most likely town, dismissing her for now.

Snake's posts are all about analysis of playstyle and figuring out how a person is acting. None of that is truely useless, but may give information that Snake isn't meaning too. Sometimes you have to look for inconsistences in a person, why are they acting that way now when they weren't, or about stuff that was posting that isn't anymore. His posts also are mostly defensive in nature, mostly because is posting style has been under attack the whole time.

The biggest thing that I notice from Snake's posting is that at one point he talks about how he himself would act given a certain situation. The biggest one was stating that if he were scum, he would be less in your face with these inconsistencies and posting on about calling people out. The problem with all of that is that none of his posting really has been a callout. Sure he has made an analysis of certain people, but he hasn't pinned one to a spotlight. He has been extremely defensive. In fact, its so defensive, that I have to wonder exactly what are his motivations for being like so.

Not only that, but Snake has constantly tried to appeal to the person, trying to get them to like him. The thing about that is that is a more psychological tactic. By appealing to who the person is and getting them to like you, their motivations will change behind the scene of what they think of you. About a quarter of Snake's posts have been calling people out on their style, and half is about defending either accusations on why he was doing that, or defense in general. The last quarter seems to be made up of personal appeals to a few individuals that are arguing.

In truth, Snake is under a lot of fire from the rest of you guys, so I imagine that this skewing to defense is apart of that. However some of the defensive tactics he has chosen just don't appear to be the right way to go about so. They are meant to appeal more to the human being behind the desk than to anything related to the game. I can't say I'm 100% certain on this still that this is the best call however, but I wanted to call out a couple things I have spotted in his posts.

Next, Sifright seems to have an agenda against Snake, as he was after him hard there for a while. Maybe it really was just a snappy comeback, but that was pursued a bit too hard for my tastes to just be something that posting style of Snake PISSED ME OFF!!!!1. I feel like Sifright may have ulterior motives for his aggressiveness, whether he may realize them or not.

And of course as I write this I get ninja'd by the lot of you, you bastards. Still, I think my opinions differ slightly than what was going on, but I'm going to leave them up anyway and lets call the dicussion on that arguement done.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'll give a proper answer tonight once I've gone through all the backlog but the thing about Snake is his entire game this time has been focused on angering people. His very first wall post was a list of everyone in the game and taking a shot at them designed to rile them up. 90% of his other posts were comments on either his skill or others lack of skill or highly directed comments on posting style. While it has been defensive it's been a very aggressive defensive and this defensive tactics fits into his pre-suiper defensive tactic of calling out people in a way that targets the man behind the keyboard rather than whether they were scum or not.
This is why I think there was some strategy involved. He's defineatly trying to psych out the everyone posting and skew posting into either non-existence or emotional backlashes. THis could have two effects 1) Shut down the town from posting as has pretty much happened so far- a scum outcome or 2) Allow him to take command of the town and rattle out the scum through getting them to reply more emotionally than rationally- a town outcome.

I could go either way (and will detail it out more fully later) but I'm leaning towards the former more than the latter for now, particularly as it has rattled us, it stopped me posting, it did shut down debate hugely and he kept at it. Another factor as this was defineatly not his style in the last game which was more based around discourse- this adversial style is very different and would suit more how I see Snake in a scum role.

[rpgdemon]

I agree with absolutely everything that Smarty has posted.

[Sifright]

I'd like to apologize for how I responded, regardless of provocation I should have ignored snakes attacks. Responding in kind was foolish of me. I've been told before that I wear my emotions on my sleeves and this is an example of me letting it get to me. So again i'm sorry >.<

[Solid Snake]

Simple guide for the future- type your post, read your post, think " is this the kind of post a cunt would make" if the answer is yes, don't post it. Even if its "strategy".

Oh, fuck off.

Under the pretense of attempting to "return civility" to this discussion you all have criticized me as if I'm the only person in this thread who's done anything wrong, and you've adhered to a worldview that I have done something utterly egregious against Sifright while meanwhile Sifright and RPG have been totally a'right in their behavior towards me.

For the record? And just because this is the last post I'll make. No strategy was involved between Sifright and I. None whatsoever. There was a strategic purpose behind much of my other interactions with other individuals, but since Sifright bitched and moaned about my post length as if my writing was the coming of the fucking Apocalypse, it's been serious business. No tricks, no gimmicks, no declaration that Sifright was "TRAPPED!", no Jester attempting to get D1 lynched, no scummy attempt to get lynched D1 because that would benefit a theoretical scumteam somehow for some reason. The flip will prove it. For better or for worse, I actually genuinely believed everything that I typed. And yes, I am well aware that most of you will actually look upon me worse once I flip and the flip confirms me. But the truth of the matter is, I had a bad day, the bad day seeped into Mafia, RPG and then Sifright knew just what buttons to push, they pushed them, and you're all convinced everything's my fault because I finally reached a moment of clarity where I realized that I'm sick and tired of this.

I'm sick and fucking tired of the NPF community applying its double standards in one set of rules when it comes to people insulting me and a far more stringent set of guidelines whenever I dare so much as step on someone's shoelaces. If you think anything I've said to Sifright whatsoever in the context of this thread is half as insulting as the shit I've randomly waltzed into the NPF chatroom and happened to incidentally discover people were saying about me, or the shit that gets said about me in one of my legit call-for-help threads about dating or women or depression or anxiety or life in general, you're wrong. And I'm sick and tired of desperately trying to rationalize your snide comments about me within some worldview that you guys are still good friends, because I'm so eager for acceptance and approval, when I really should have realized a fucking long time ago that I was the resident punching bag you all enjoyed kicking the crap out of.

Oh yeah, and on that note, clearly it's totally acceptable to demonize the entirety of my posts as "the kind of post(s) a cunt would make," or "a bitchfest" or "bullshittery" while me labeling Sifright's posts as childish or illiterate is indefensible by comparison, sure, yeah, whatever.

I look forward to each and every one of you eating crow once you're forced to confront the ugly truth when I flip and you're stuck rationalizing exactly why your convictions were wrong or how my actual feelings on the matter fits into any "strategy" or "tactic." Go ahead. You clearly all want me dead, so vote me off and watch me flip Town. Do it. I no longer want any of you hypocrites to win anyway.

The only sad thing about this is before that first damned MLP Mafia game I actually wasn't around here because I went through a several week period where I was smart enough to quit. I saw your true fucking colors in insults made about me in chatrooms when people assumed I was absent and incapable of defending myself, outside the context of any competitive game and finally wised up and like "This is wrong and I don't care for it, I should not be a part of this community anymore." But like the dumbass I am I fucking waltzed straight back into this series of landmines. Maybe this time around I can actually stay committed enough to abandon NPF for good and actually improve my life around people who give the slightest of damns.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well there goes my strategy argument...
Snake, you seem to seek out offence and insult. I was addressing my post to everybody0 I only mentioned you by name to address your "it happens in every mafia argument" and then to talk about whether I thought you were scum cause I had all your posts in mind. I was going to address Sifright and RPGDemon in my big post tongiht.
But Snake this isn't about mafia anymore. You take everything way too personally. I'm in the chat pretty much all day and I've never seen anyone seriously insult you. It's always joking- we all insult each other in the chat, it's how the chat rolls. Nobody hates you.
I insulted everyone in this thread earlier including you and I did personally but that wasn't because I have a deep hatred of you, it's because you (and others) flipped out in paranoid bitchfests at everyone. The only time I've ever actually insulted you is because of your paranoia about being insulted.
Your rants about "I'm town, you'll all see, you'll all see" aren't relevant- this isn't about mafia anymore. This is about your tremendous insecurities and your willingness to find offense.
Snake you need to take this out of the mafia thread, make a "Do you hate me thread" in general and sort it out there. Because your problems here are much bigger than mafia.

[Sifright]

Don't you think you are over reacting? Coming of the apocalypse? I realize I was using invectives when describing the post size but I do that fairly often and it's just a bad habit of mine I genuinely didn't intend to offend or hurt your feelings at all my only hope was that you would condense your posts down a bit. Also please don't conflate what an asshole does in the chat room with the actions of others.

[Fenris]

Thank you everybody for finally quitting the bitchfest and -

oh god damnit

Snake:

The fact that Smarty prefaced that with

FFS everyone. I want to see everyone calm down first before we proceed.

means he wasn't talking to just you. There were a lot of cunty posts from a lot of non-cunty people back there and this is exactly the kind of behavior that forced us to ban mafia from here a few years back.

Please don't make me do it again, all of you.

[Fenris]

Sifright:

Cut out the personal attacks.

Play the game, quit with the insults.

[Fenris]

Don't you think you are over reacting? Coming of the apocalypse? I realize I was using invectives when describing the post size but I do that fairly often and it's just a bad habit of mine I genuinely didn't intend to offend or hurt your feelings at all my only hope was that you would condense your posts down a bit. Also please don't conflate what an asshole does in the chat room with the actions of others.

triple postin'

I'm pretty sure that Snake is also allowed to use hyperbole. It's not really over-reacting if it's mind-numbingly apparent that he's exaggerating for effect.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I don't even what do know up down twenty in sticks.