Prometheus

[Magus]

Pretty fantastic. I thought it answered many of the questions inherent in the Alien franchise in an interesting way, while still definitely being its own thing. If you were judging this by, say, Alien itself, I'd say it's not as tightly paced as that film, but if your benchmark is Aliens I'd say it more than matches that film, and even out performs it in its horror aspects (many people's complaints with Aliens--not actually scary. I think Prometheus has at least one scene that is going to match that horror aspect for people that they say has been missing).

I can definitely recommend the movie. It's easily the best thing in the franchise since Aliens.

BELOW I DETAIL MY THOUGHTS ON CERTAIN THINGS WITH TONS OF SPOILERS. DON'T READ ANYTHING BELOW THIS WITHOUT WATCHING THE MOVIE.

The Space Jockeys-- I liked the film's explanation for who the Space Jockeys, or Engineers, as they are called in this film, are. The reveal that the apparently inhuman/elephantine being in the first movie is actually an exosuit on a 9-foot tall human was really surprising to me. I didn't expect it--I didn't expect the opening scene to actually follow through with "these are the Engineers", as I thought that was some proto-human (well, I guess it was a proto-human) getting offed by the eventually to be introduced Engineers. In retrospect I kind of dislike that opening scene (not for its ambiguity, I"ll get into that later), but for the potential that it has to reveal too early what the Engineers are. BUT since it didn't ruin the surprise for me, at least, I can't be too harsh on it.

The Nephilim--

Genesis 6:1-4 "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

As for the Engineers themselves, they remind me of the Nephilim from the Bible. If you follow that sort of stuff, in Biblical cosmology (or at least the parts thought up by people who possibly had too much time on their hands), the Nephilim were fallen angels who slept with human women to produce the race of giants such as Goliath. There were a whole bunch of these fellows apparently, until they were eventually all killed off in various wars and such.

If you take this one step further to the Engineers in Prometheus, who are 9-foot tall albino giants who apparently visited Earth in the past, descending from the sky...it seems clear what the producers were going for, that the Nephilim in the Bible were actually aliens coming down, interbreeding with proto-humans (or creating them in the first place, as the film would posit), getting worshipped as gods or angels, as depicted in the various ruins and cave art the archaelogists found, telling them about the planetary alignment in the sky, etc. The tales of giants or Nephilim in the Bible are actually due to the Engineers and so forth.

The First Scene--This scene is a bit confusing to me. My interpretation is this scene is happening on ancient Earth and the reason the Engineers were attacking earth is a tribe of enemy Engineers were inhabiting it. This enemy Engineer drinks the ooze stuff unknowingly, thinking it is a peace offering, and dies, then falls into the water. His mutated DNA then spreads throughout the planet, creating advanced life on Earth, including being drunk by apes or proto-humans and producing modern humans. Or perhaps I'm reading this scene wrong and the Engineers purposefully created humans on the planet (which goes into my earlier thoughts on the Nephilim) and then later wanted to exterminate them for some reason, as is posited in the movie. It seems obvious that ancient people were supposed to have been in contact with the Engineers, so perhaps some of the enemy Engineers survived this initial attack and told their "descendants" about where they had come from, perhaps as a warning, or otherwise the Engineers were simply in contact with the humans they had created on Earth from the beginning, told them where they had come from, and then were going to exterminate them but screwed up and ended up offing themselves. It's all a bit muddled to me.

The Secret of the Ooze--So, about that uber-primordial ooze the Engineers created to use as a chemical weapon on planets. I'm a bit confused as to how exactly it worked--did it simply speed up evolutionary processes a thousand fold, or does it actually create life? In a scene in the cave we earlier see worms wriggling around in the soil after the stuff has started to seep out. Mere hours later, these worms have turned into freaky monster worms that murder those two scientists (Fifield and...whats-his-name), with apparently acid for blood and so on. Well, I guess Fifield survives as a grotesque zombie creature infected by the virus, but you know what I mean.

Anyway, regarding the worms popping out of the ground--did the ooze combine with the chemicals in the ground and actually create life, the worms, or does it simply speed it up? I'm not sure if this is supposed to be ambiguous or not, but we saw basically no signs of animal life on the planet (or maybe even no plant life, actually) prior to the ooze coming out, so I guess it could go either way.

Xenomorph Genesis--I thought this was a pretty original way to explain the creation of the xenomorphs, especially when internet speculation had already kind of explained it. A lot of speculation prior to this movie being made was that the xenomorphs were created by the Space Jockeys/Engineers as a biological weapon which then got out of hand and turned on them. This turns out to be true, in a sense, since the biological ooze weapon started mutating them and causing them to turn on each other (or have their heads explode, anyway). In the movie itself we see the proto stages of alien development begin to play out--Holloway is infected with the bio-ooze, he impregnates his girlfriend with a freaky squid monster, once the squid monster is removed it grows to resemble a gigantic face hugger (body hugger?). This body hugger then infects the Engineer they find with what resembles a basic proto-xenomorph, presumably a queen that will lay eggs with body huggers that will seek out more prey, etc., and over several generations we will get the xenomorphs from Alien with the current life-cycle, having infected an Engineer (lets just assume that after Prometheus ends, he goes and investigates it and gets infected) who then crashlands on a planet only to be discovered by the Nostromo.

Thoughts?

[Lumenskir]

I thought it was great. Not as good as Alien, but I think you're right in comparing it closer to the Aliens side of the horror-action spectrum, although this was definitely loaded with some great body horror. Either Ridley Scott had a really bad experience with C-Sections, or he is funding these movies almost solely with sponsorships from Big Natural Birth.

The First Scene - I've heard it theorized or explained elsewhere that the Engineer was acting as a 'genetic gardener', giving up his life to seed the world with usable DNA/life. I also don't think that it's necessarily Earth, but rather a representation of the typical Engineer plan of going to a hospitable planet and bringing life to it.

The Secret of the Ooze - I've read a lot of hand-wringing and whinging about why and how the ooze can have such diverse effects, but I think that's supposed to be the point. Like in Alien, when the chestburster went from cat-sized to human-sized in the space of two scenes without eating anything, the way this stuff works is meant to be completely bizarre. As a basic explanation, it appears to just react to a local life form and mutate it into the perfect killing version of that organism. My personal theory is that there's a bunch of different versions of the ooze meant to be dumped all at once on hostiles in order to create absolute chaos, we just can't differentiate between the different forms yet.

Maybe this is because I just think it'd be great to consider a war scenario where the local wildlife now has multiple mouths and acid blood, some people are turning into zombies, and xenomorphs are popping up around the population.

[Magus]

Yeah, I just read on the AV Club that that was the Word of God explanation from Scott himself on the meaning of the first scene, so that takes care of that.

The ooze being made to purposefully mutate things into a vicious/violent version of their former selves is something I hadn't thought of. If it is engineered to act specifically that way, it helps explain its use as a weapon.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Eugh.

I duno what movie you guys were watching, but I found Prometheus to be utter shit. Like, all it did was introduce a ton of plotholes/retcons for no other reason than to make a new movie that's only tangenially related to Aliens. I am officially removing this movie from my personal headcanon because it was so terrible. Pretty much every element of the film was crap, from the terrible acting of the main female lead, to the lack of communication between characters, to the stupidiy of these so called "scientists" ("hey guys we can breathe in here, let's all take off our helmets, we can't possibly be infected by any alien germs that we don't know might be here")(oh look a giant teethed worm thing, let's play with it!)

Eugh. Just fucking eugh! I could go into more detail and spoiler everything but it will turn into a massive rant in which I breakdown and critiscise pretty much everything that was in the film and I really don't want to because it pisses me off so much. This whole thing was AvP Requiem level bad and should be avoided at all costs. I don't know why people think it was good, it wasn't scary, it was ill-paced, non-sensical, boring, plot hole filled waste of time exploring an element of the Aliens verse that never needed exploring. Fuck this movie.

[Magus]

I don't know that it really retcons things. None of those things had established explanations in the first place. So rather it would be the explanations they came up with, you didn't like, as opposed to them being retcons.

Like I said, it wasn't as tightly wound as Alien, but I thought it was pretty good.

Anyway, the reason the scientists took off their helmets is the same reason they refused to take weapons with them or why they acted so skeptically to Charlize Theron's character telling them not to make contact with any aliens they find: they are naive, literally sandal-wearing liberal hippy scientist types. Hell, they're archaeologists or anthropologists, in fact, not actual science scientists (though the one who does have a degree in biology also acted stupidly in another scene, so that would be an example of someone acting really stupidly, but that is another scene besides that one...).

I did dislike that the film characterized Theron as being a "bad guy" even though she was the only one acting intelligently throughout.

[Azisien]

Wait... Are you telling me people acted stupidly in a horror film???

[Lumenskir]

Wait... Are you telling me people acted stupidly in a horror film???
I'd say it tends more towards overly hubristic, but yeah, horror movie behavior in a horror movie. Except instead of a hulking slasher it's vagina monsters!

Slightly unrelated, but I kind of wish I could see what internet comments would have been like circa Alien being released.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

I don't know that it really retcons things. None of those things had established explanations in the first place. So rather it would be the explanations they came up with, you didn't like, as opposed to them being retcons.

I don't know if they were retcons or plotholes, so I used both words. For instance, the fact that this isn't the same planet that Alien/s took place on (lv426, Prometheus is set on lv223 (LV426 didn't have rings, there were no destroyed human ship parts near the alien ship in the original, and the last surviving engineer died on the human module, leaving the captain seat empty for the Nostromo crew to find, in case you're wondering where that comes from)), which means this isn't the same ship found in those films, which begs the question as to why they even bothered putting the alien in at the end, since we never again saw this planet. This means that the ship found on lv426 is probably the one that flew off at the end and the aliens that were later found on it in Alien are not descended from the same alien were saw being born here. You tell me if that's a retcon or a plothole.

This also means that through the entire Alien series, there was probably another planet and another dead ship full of xenos, assuming Prometheus isn't a retcon.

Then there's all the other stupid shit, like why did the android poison that guy (it served no purpose other than to get everyone killed), why did nobody go and actually kill the damn squid thing after it appeared, or even mention it again (seriously, she runs off from the people trying to put her into stasis, has time enough to get it removed, locks it in a room and then everyone seemingly forgets about it).

And why did the engineers bother leaving maps to their secret bio weapons base again? Oh right, so we could get this trainwreck of a plot moving.




Wait... Are you telling me people acted stupidly in a horror film???

Horror film? This was not a horror film. I say this as a guy who doesn't even particularly like horror films, but there was nothing like horror in this. Fucking Pandorum was more horror movie than this. It was just people being stupid so something would actually happen, like the idiot geologist running off and getting lost in a cave he just went and mapped! Honestly, even if he couldn't access the map himself, you'd think he'd know his way around a cave since he probably spends most of his life exploring them. But no, he had to get lost so him and the other guy could get attacked by the mutant worm thing that they had to go and poke around with in the room full of canisters of unidentified black goop that is clearly needs identifying before you walk around in there without your helmets on and touch shit!

[Lumenskir]

So, Hawk, if I told you this had nothing to do with established Alien continuity, and was just Ridley Scott creating a new universe and timeline with some familiar names and elements but no connection to what we've seen before...I mean, you pretty vehemently didn't seem to derive any enjoyment from the movie as a movie, but as an Alien-continuity fan would you be placated?

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Then why not go and create an actually new and different universe without incorporating elements from the alien verse? Why show a goddamn alien at the end? It pretty clearly is supposed to be connected, so why is it such a fucking mess?

[Magus]

Well, I know Scott said he wanted it to be viewed as mostly separate from the Alien franchise, but then he tacked on that scene at the end with the Xenomorph being born, so I think it bears examination.

I personally just assumed that after the xenomorph was born another Engineer went to the planet at some point in the future, got infected, and then crash landed on LV-426 (or whatever it was in the first Alien movie). This just provides an explanation for how the xenomorphs were created as opposed to how that ship with that Engineer gets to LV-426. It is silly that they seemed to shy away from this one last facet of Alien, but I don't see anything in the movie retconning that or creating a plot hole as far as that goes. The movie itself has plot holes in why some of the characters act the way they do, but not necessarily the Alien franchise as a whole.

The movie seems to be starting a new offshoot regarding the Engineers, though. The stuff with the xenomorph is just an extra thing to establish it takes place in the same universe as the Alien/Predator franchises.

EDIT: Wait are you saying its a reboot, Lumenskir, or totally unconnected? It's not really a reboot, and I think it definitely has the old Alien continuity in mind and I think Damon Lindelof had it in mind when he wrote the script. But as you said I don't think the Alien franchise is really the main point of the movie, rather starting a new, connected, yet separate franchise.

[BloodyMage]

The point was to show where the Space Jockey came from and what it was. David, the android, explicitly mentions at one point that there are other crafts which he thinks he can pilot. I think we're meant to assume that the craft found in the original alien film is one of those other ships which had an outbreak of Xenomorph mid-flight.

But I do agree that this was a bad film on a few levels. While the film is visually impressive, I think Scott's attempt to tackle the big questions of the universe meant that characterisation and story suffered a little. There were 17 members on board Prometheus but I think only about four of them had any proper characterisation. Fassbender and Theon were by far the stand out actors but the rest were one note and practically had fodder written on their foreheads. Unlike the original Alien film, Prometheushad no sustained and singular threat. In Alien, the Xenomorph rips it's way out of a guy's chest, everyone goes looking for it and ends up dead. But at least we know what the threat is and that it's dangerous. In Prometheus the danger that needs them to get back to the ship quickly is a storm. Then there's a infected earth worm which kills a guy while the geologist falls face first into liquid. Then David poisons Charlie. Then the geologist returns, infected, and has to be killed with fire. Then Shaw is revealed to be pregnant. She cuts it out and leaves it in the spare medical bay. Then they go visit the Engineer who decides he doesn't want to talk and the best way to wake up after his nap is a killing spree. It seriously feels like the film is out of focus, like Scott wanted to do a philosophical film but wanted action and horror elements but couldn't decided on what would be the cause.

While it's certainly not horrible, it's also not that good either. It has some major flaws that keep it from being as entertaining as I'd really have liked it to be.

[Lumenskir]

Wait are you saying its a reboot, Lumenskir, or totally unconnected? It's not really a reboot, and I think it definitely has the old Alien continuity in mind and I think Damon Lindelof had it in mind when he wrote the script. But as you said I don't think the Alien franchise is really the main point of the movie, rather starting a new, connected, yet separate franchise.
Basically, when complaints about the 'plot' start to mention cross-movie details, my first thought is just to pretend that it's a reboot/unconnected from the earlier movies. Aside from cosmetic details, nothing in this movie has to directly connect to Alien Prime, so I'm perfectly fine treating it like a separate story with familiar elements (the same as I treated X-Men: First Class last year).

Personally, I really think Scott + Co. are treating this like a distinct universe, mostly because of how the Weyland corporation was treated. In Alien Prime (or really, Alien and Aliens) the xenos were really just the most present threat, the real evil was the corporation forcing all of the danger (the whole "The xenos might be horrible, but they're not fucking each other over for a percentage" deal). In Prometheus they don't ever really mention profit, and people are disposable only in so far as they advance personal, mortal goals (or, in the case of David, if they just piss off the wrong person at the wrong time). I think Prometheus, and whatever sequels it generates, won't deal with the same issues Alien and Aliens did, so I can perfectly accept that they don't have to inexorably lead to setting up what we saw in the originals.
But I do agree that this was a bad film on a few levels. While the film is visually impressive, I think Scott's attempt to tackle the big questions of the universe meant that characterisation and story suffered a little.
While I don't think it's a great film on the level of either Alien or Aliens, I really did like it, and would put it on the level of Inception (in the "Movies I'm almost forced to watch all the way through if I stumble upon them while channel surfing" division).

BUT, I do realize that this film ticks a number of boxes for me that can be frustrating/infuriating for others. For instance, I personally love that Weyland spent a trillion dollars to attempt to cheat death and get immortality from what he considered gods, only to be bludgeoned to death for his troubles. The entire movie, to me, seemed to be about how narcissistic and hubristic humans could be, and Weyland was the perfect example of presenting petty problems and mindsets to the unknown and expecting it to conform to your wishes. However, I'm well aware that the entire plotline was both sudden, shallow, and a little jarring in how eager it was to shoot that particular shaggy dog, it just tickled me.
It seriously feels like the film is out of focus, like Scott wanted to do a philosophical film but wanted action and horror elements but couldn't decided on what would be the cause.
If you treat each individual threat like the main threat then yes, it is a little scattershot, but I think the main point was that the humans arrived on the planet and then proceeded to act like they owned the place, whereupon the environment (dangerous weather, foreign substances, resident life forms, etc.) proceeded to knock that idea right the fuck out of their heads.

[BloodyMage]

In Prometheus they don't ever really mention profit, and people are disposable only in so far as they advance personal, mortal goals (or, in the case of David, if they just piss off the wrong person at the wrong time).

No one is talking about profit because this exploration was designed to go to a foreign planet and look for lifeforms. And Weyland is on board, looking for something to sustain his life. In Alien, most of the craft members weren't aware of the true mission, so started complaining they get paid to drill mines, not investigate distress signals and Weyland secretly ordered the mission to find Xenomorphs so that they could be brought back for experimentation. It's less to do with how Weyland Industries is treated and more to do with a difference in situation. Not to mention, Prometheus is set before the Weyland-Yutani merger.


The entire movie, to me, seemed to be about how narcissistic and hubristic humans could be, and Weyland was the perfect example of presenting petty problems and mindsets to the unknown and expecting it to conform to your wishes.

Except that should have been prevalent from the beginning. Infact Shaw and Charlie come across as wide eyed idealists when going to the planet with everyone else basically going along because they're ordered to. No one seems particularly narcissistic or think they have any right to be there. I'm also not sure that 'how do I prolong life?' is a petty problem. It'd have more practical applications than 'why did you create us?', I'd imagine. I would still suggest that Scott just wanted a film about the bigger questions in life but was too busy trying to direct those ideas rather than a story with interesting characters or a focused plot. Which leads to...

If you treat each individual threat like the main threat then yes, it is a little scattershot, but I think the main point was that the humans arrived on the planet and then proceeded to act like they owned the place, whereupon the environment (dangerous weather, foreign substances, resident life forms, etc.) proceeded to knock that idea right the fuck out of their heads.

I'm not treating individual threats like the main threat. I'm treating individual threats as individual threats because I'm criticising the film for lacking a main threat. And they really didn't act like they owned the planet. Shaw was extremely cautious by telling them not to bring weaponry and suggesting that the not touch anything. But David was following different orders. The entire film was actually based on the idea that actually they didn't own anything. The Engineers created them and if they wanted to find out something they needed help from their creators. A prouder race would have stayed on Earth and thought 'Screw the Engineers, we can figure it out ourselves'.

[Magus]

Well if we want to talk the nitty gritty of the plot the film is not as tightly focused as Alien. They go back to the cave, what, five times? In the original Alien they went to the ship once, got infected, the xenomorph got out, and most of the rest of the film was about dealing with getting picked off one by one. In this movie we got a zillion different issues at hand, from the meaning of life to the origins of man to the meaning of sentience for artificial beings (in the case of the android David who is continually said to be "soulless", even to his face, despite expressing seemingly human emotions). The scale is way greater than Alien and that's probably why it lacks the same focus. It's not as tight as Alien thematically. In Alien and Blade Runner, Scott focused on one or two themes at most (corporatization, artificial intelligence, what it means to be human). In this movie he's easily got a half dozen.

[Lumenskir]

It's less to do with how Weyland Industries is treated and more to do with a difference in situation.
I'm just saying that they could have easily made the focus of the mission profit-driven with very minor tweaks, but they seem to have made a choice to depict the mission as being primarily idea/personal based.
Except that should have been prevalent from the beginning. Infact Shaw and Charlie come across as wide eyed idealists when going to the planet with everyone else basically going along because they're ordered to.
They start as idealistic, but a lot of their actions are borne out of them thinking that they can handle these new and exciting situations, and that things would proceed according to plan. You mention Shaw telling that one guy not to bring a gun along, but that's because she was under the impression that they would be meeting people who wanted to hug them, not kill them. The second they find out they can breathe they take off their helmets and strut around the mysterious vases. Shaw's first thought when they're studying the Engineer's head is to stimulate it back to life and see what happens, which literally blows up in her face.

And while the crew might not have been hubristic to come along, they don't ever treat the situation with the gravity/awe it properly deserves.
I'm also not sure that 'how do I prolong life?' is a petty problem.
I guess I was treating it mostly from how Weyland was presenting it: He admitted he had at most a few days left to live, and he spent a fortune trying to cheat his way out of something inevitable. Petty might not be the right word, but he did display a sense of entitlement that he had done so much and deserved to have this ostensible God treat him with the respect he expected.
I'm not treating individual threats like the main threat. I'm treating individual threats as individual threats because I'm criticising the film for lacking a main threat.
I'm just saying that the environment IS the main threat, and it's composed of a bunch of smaller threats.
A prouder race would have stayed on Earth and thought 'Screw the Engineers, we can figure it out ourselves'.
I don't know, from the way Holloway gets so drunk and depressed once they think all of the Engineers are dead, I got the sense he was expecting to arrive on the planet and be treated as a long lost son. I mean, just the fact that they took the markings as an invitation implies pride ("Oooh, we figured out the code, they definitely want to see us.")
In this movie he's easily got a half dozen.
I think that's why I went to an Inception comparison, because both of them raise a number of really deep concerns, but are both ultimately concerned with being a fun movie rather than answering the questions they've raised (which, really, is what this discussion is supposed to do).

[BloodyMage]

I'm just saying that they could have easily made the focus of the mission profit-driven with very minor tweaks, but they seem to have made a choice to depict the mission as being primarily idea/personal based.

That's because Scott was focusing on the themes of who we are and where we come from, so it would make sense for the characters to be personally motivated. But, aside from Shaw, he doesn't properly develop this in any of the characters.

They start as idealistic, but a lot of their actions are borne out of them thinking that they can handle these new and exciting situations, and that things would proceed according to plan. You mention Shaw telling that one guy not to bring a gun along, but that's because she was under the impression that they would be meeting people who wanted to hug them, not kill them. The second they find out they can breathe they take off their helmets and strut around the mysterious vases. Shaw's first thought when they're studying the Engineer's head is to stimulate it back to life and see what happens, which literally blows up in her face.

She told him not to bring the gun because walking into an foreign building with a weapon sends the wrong signal. She was expecting these beings to be cognitive and sensitive to reasoning rather than irrationally destructive as they turned out to be. For instance, if a man comes into another my house with a gun I'd be more on edge than if he didn't. And they don't strut once they take the helmets off. They're still wandering aimlessly around the caves until David figures out the markings are buttons. Shaw only attempts to stimulate the head because she and the other scientist notice that, actually, the head seems to be regenerating. Although, honestly, that moment felt like it was really just meant to be a nod to the first Alien film where they reboot the android's head.

And while the crew might not have been hubristic to come along, they don't ever treat the situation with the gravity/awe it properly deserves.

I actually found the crew extremely quick to accept Shaw's premise that they were created by aliens based on cave drawings. At most the cave drawings suggest the alien's visited Earth but her idea that they created humans is complete conjecture. But everyone is accepting almost as soon as they see the building or the dead alien. Even the DNA doesn't prove anything other than the fact that DNA like humans is sustainable on a planet like Earth. I'm not sure how the situation deserves awe though. Should they have been bowing or something?

Petty might not be the right word, but he did display a sense of entitlement that he had done so much and deserved to have this ostensible God treat him with the respect he expected.

I think he just didn't want to die. When you consider most major religions, evading death is normally a part of the package, albeit normally though a spiritual eternity. But they did, apparently, physically create humans, so it wouldn't be beyond reason to ask them if they could solve certain physical conditions. I don't think it was a sense of entitlement but it felt like he was desperate not to die and these beings were his last option. Pity is what you should feel for him.

I'm just saying that the environment IS the main threat, and it's composed of a bunch of smaller threats.

Except the engineers aren't apart of the environment. This isn't even their planet either. It's implied they just went there to set up a military base. The infected earth worms aren't apart of the environment. Again, they're part of the terraforming experiments. And the geologist getting infected was due to his ingesting the liquid brought to the planet by the engineers. The only attack by the environment is the storm and it's more of an obstacle that just delays the mission. It doesn't actually hurt anyone.

I don't know, from the way Holloway gets so drunk and depressed once they think all of the Engineers are dead, I got the sense he was expecting to arrive on the planet and be treated as a long lost son. I mean, just the fact that they took the markings as an invitation implies pride ("Oooh, we figured out the code, they definitely want to see us.")

Actually, it was Shaw who considered it an invitation. Holloway was disappointed to find out that their creators were dead. I don't think he expected to be treated as a long lost son, he just wanted to opportunity to speak to one of them face to face, which is probably a desire most people would have if presented with the possibility a physical creator.

I think that's why I went to an Inception comparison, because both of them raise a number of really deep concerns, but are both ultimately concerned with being a fun movie rather than answering the questions they've raised (which, really, is what this discussion is supposed to do).

Except my point is this is not a fun movie because it focuses on the questions more than the fun part. I agree with the Inception comparison and that Inception manages to entertain while playing with dream tropes. But what I'm saying is that Prometheus failed to strike the balance.

[Lumenskir]

But they did, apparently, physically create humans, so it wouldn't be beyond reason to ask them if they could solve certain physical conditions. I don't think it was a sense of entitlement but it felt like he was desperate not to die and these beings were his last option. Pity is what you should feel for him.
I don't know, I got a definite sense of "I'm rich, I deserve to cheat death." Especially since his conversation with the Engineer was contrasted with Shaw trying to question it about why they wanted to kill all humans, and he just wanted to live a little longer.
Except the engineers aren't apart of the environment. This isn't even their planet either. It's implied they just went there to set up a military base. The infected earth worms aren't apart of the environment. Again, they're part of the terraforming experiments. And the geologist getting infected was due to his ingesting the liquid brought to the planet by the engineers. The only attack by the environment is the storm and it's more of an obstacle that just delays the mission. It doesn't actually hurt anyone.
...I didn't mean just the natural phenomena native to the planet, I meant the overall surrounding events and items of where they landed. Like, the environment of a shopping mall includes the other shoppers and stores and stuff, not just the natural land it's built on.
Except my point is this is not a fun movie because it focuses on the questions more than the fun part.
But the Big Questions part of it is frontloaded, and by the end they're all facing the far more pressing concerns of, like, C-Sectioning a vagina monster out of themselves, killing their zombie coworkers, and fighting the Engineers, which I found really fun to watch. It's not like it becomes the end of Evangelion at any point.

[POS Industries]

This whole thing was AvP Requiem level bad
Hawk? No. No, Hawk. Just no. No no no.

Nothing is as bad as AvP Requiem. (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?p=790452#post790452) You are, by all means, free to dislike this movie for all sorts of valid reasons, but that sort of ludicrous hyperbole simply will not stand.

[BloodyMage]

I don't know, I got a definite sense of "I'm rich, I deserve to cheat death." Especially since his conversation with the Engineer was contrasted with Shaw trying to question it about why they wanted to kill all humans, and he just wanted to live a little longer.

While I agree he was meant to be contrasted with Shaw, I think it's left entirely open who was right. You can side with Weyland and his mindful practicality with which approaches the Engineer or you can side with Shaw who wanted to have more lofty questions such as 'why do we live' and 'why do we die answered.' The film doesn't come down on either side, although Shaw lives. The Engineer attempts to kill them both indiscriminately.

...I didn't mean just the natural phenomena native to the planet, I meant the overall surrounding events and items of where they landed. Like, the environment of a shopping mall includes the other shoppers and stores and stuff, not just the natural land it's built on.

Except the simile should be a shopping mall occupied by swat teams and each room in the mall has a different swat member wielding increasingly larger and more lethal weaponry. Shoppers and stores would still be a natural occurrence but in Prometheus every major threat has very little to do with the planet they're on and more due to the military base they're unwittingly investigating. Unlike Alien, which had one sustained threat which came from the alien spacecraft, we're initially lead to believe this planet belongs to the engineers, then that they're all dead, then the infected worms, then the infected geologist and then the awakened engineer. It minimises the effectiveness of the threat to the viewer if we are constantly introduced to new threats rather than one prevalent threat, like in Alien. As a result, with out one singular threat as the focal point the danger presented in Prometheus felt out of focus.

But the Big Questions part of it is frontloaded, and by the end they're all facing the far more pressing concerns of, like, C-Sectioning a vagina monster out of themselves, killing their zombie coworkers, and fighting the Engineers, which I found really fun to watch. It's not like it becomes the end of Evangelion at any point.

Apart the the fact that they go into the cockpit and confront the Engineer with those exact big questions? The big questions are most certainly kept at the front and centre of the plot. The questions should have been dropped as soon as they found their co-worker dead and begun to realise that this was now a battle for survival.

[Lumenskir]

Apart the the fact that they go into the cockpit and confront the Engineer with those exact big questions? The big questions are most certainly kept at the front and centre of the plot. The questions should have been dropped as soon as they found their co-worker dead and begun to realise that this was now a battle for survival.
Ok, maybe it's just a difference of opinion on what they were trying to get across, but the whole confrontation lasted like, a minute, and was dealt with even quicker? And I don't really think Shaw going "Why are you going to kill all of us!" counts as a 'big question'.

I mean, once David doses Holloway they sort of sideline all of the non-Weyland concerns in place of killing zombies and escaping death. It never really slows down for any length of time to ponder.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

I just got back from the movie and I liked it a lot. Great design aesthetic, solid performances (even though the characters were pretty simple archetypes), and some really interesting questions which makes sense since writer Damon Lindelof made a living off of six seasons of questioning.

I had the same hang-up with the whole "let's take off our helmets" issue but I attributed that to being a studio thing. It's the same reason Spider-Man always loses his mask in the movies.

[Aldurin]

I really liked it, since it sort of acts as a prequel/reboot simultaneously (there is nothing I see that is conflicting with the storyline from the Alien trilogy, especially since there is a large time gap and various possibilities to lead to the wreck in Alien) , giving a stronger origin to the xenomorphs while pointing towards the new line of thought of "What about the guys that made the xenomorphs?".

My only real issues are that Scott's attempt to expand upon the personality of androids felt awkward and clumsy, and that common sense ran horrifically short (I would hope that when we get to that point in the future that potential space travelers get the basic safety stuff drilled into their brain).

[Yumil]

I didn't really like it, the only memorable performance was from Fassbender, I didnt give a hoot about the rest of the cast.

About the first scene. I don't think the engineer was a Genetic Gardner, instead I think it all stems down to what they were doing on that moon. When they go into the tomb room(the one with the vases and the mural), the Mural at the end of the room shows a Xenomorph at the center of it. I feel that they were trying to recreate them, perhaps to make themselves a perfect lifeform(a theme from Alien/s with the Xenomorph being so much more advanced evolution wise). The engineer drinks the ooze, perhaps trying to mutate himself, it backfires deconstructing himself and seeding the planet. They have no reason to try this stuff on an inhabited world as they might screw their population.

I think they had either created or seen the Xenomorphs before(they had to to put it in the mural) and they were trying to recreate or perfect them through themselves. They had no intention of engineering earth, but the life just gave them one more thing to experiment on to perfect their ooze.

[BloodyMage]

Ok, maybe it's just a difference of opinion on what they were trying to get across, but the whole confrontation lasted like, a minute, and was dealt with even quicker? And I don't really think Shaw going "Why are you going to kill all of us!" counts as a 'big question'.

I mean, once David doses Holloway they sort of sideline all of the non-Weyland concerns in place of killing zombies and escaping death. It never really slows down for any length of time to ponder.

Even that question though is loaded. She's really asking 'why do we die?' 'Why does a powerful creator with the capabilities to do something about our pain and suffering make us mortal and let us die?' That's a pretty big existential questions as far the questions in the film go.

And while the film never slows down completely for a massive discussion I don't the pace of the film was rather slow anyway, although I've watched 2001: A Space Odyssey so it's nothing to gripe about. But there were plenty of discussions after Holloway got poisoned. Holloway and Shaw had one about creating life before they had sex and there's the conversation between Vickers and Weyland about man being meant to die. Scott seemed to be trying to present Shaw as in the right though, so I'm not sure he was going for big discussions really. Just big questions

... and some really interesting questions which makes sense since writer Damon Lindelof made a living off of six seasons of questioning.

Not necessarily so. (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/movies/news/a385484/damon-lindelof-prometheus-sequel-not-a-foregone-conclusion.html)

[Lumenskir]

My only real issues are that Scott's attempt to expand upon the personality of androids felt awkward and clumsy
How so? I thought David was a really great example of a Bishop-esque Uncanny Valley android, where you can sort of guess at his motivations but can't really be sure what you're seeing is just surface or something more meaningful. Like, did he dose the drink because he was pissed off at Halloway, or was it just a cold calculation that his boss had just told him to try harder, he had a mysterious substance but no idea what its effects were, and Halloway was one of the least essential members of the ship?

Although maybe I like him so much because he was a Peter O'Toole fan.
Even that question though is loaded. She's really asking 'why do we die?' 'Why does a powerful creator with the capabilities to do something about our pain and suffering make us mortal and let us die?' That's a pretty big existential questions as far the questions in the film go.
But the sequence of events that lead or to ask the question was (1) Janek theorizes they built this place as an offworld WMD facility (2) David says they are headed to Earth (3) She wants to know why they now want to kill us. I don't think they ever treated the Engineers as being a continuing force in modern Earth activities to reason with, she just wanted an explanation for why they now wanted to crush us.
so I'm not sure he was going for big discussions really. Just big questions
Yeah, I agree with this, and it's probably why I liked it. I like when mysteries are presented, but they're also too big for the characters to sit down and actually comprehend/deal with in the presence of more facehugging concerns.
Not necessarily so.
Not necessarily that the questions were interesting, or that he made a living off of Lost?

[BloodyMage]

But the sequence of events that lead or to ask the question was (1) Janek theorizes they built this place as an offworld WMD facility (2) David says they are headed to Earth (3) She wants to know why they now want to kill us. I don't think they ever treated the Engineers as being a continuing force in modern Earth activities to reason with, she just wanted an explanation for why they now wanted to crush us.

Many people believe in God but not so many believe in an active God. Yet, they still ask questions such as 'Why do we die?' or 'Why are we allowed to suffer?' Obviously, the engineers are a bit more proactive about pain and suffering than most religious gods, except maybe the Gnostic gods, but these are pretty big questions which are framed within the story. They arrive at the planet of their creators, find that their well-being is low on their creators concerns and question their role in the universe. When Shaw meets the Engineer her questions are drawn from the more imminent concern of their biological weaponry but the thematically the question serves the same purpose.

Not necessarily that the questions were interesting, or that he made a living off of Lost?

That the inclusion of questions is Lindelof's doing. The article suggests it was more of a joint decision between Lindelof and Scott to present large questions within the film and maybe only answer smaller questions or only answer them in part. In fact, the article suggests Lindelof warned Scott about the danger of withholding from the viewer, something he probably learned from his experience on Lost.

[RickZarber]

Has everyone read this (spoilerific) blog post (http://cavalorn.livejournal.com/584135.html) that's been going around? It digs into the symbolic undertones of the story and goes a long way to surmising some of the meaning behind the film. (Seriously, go read it if you haven't.)

I do have some major issues with some of it though:

1) I'm not satisfied with the idea of the black slime reacting psychically to the wielder's intent. Maybe it would be easier to simply say it affects different creatures in different ways? ie, For the Engineers, they break down into basic life-structures, but it's not meant to react with other things? But that still doesn't explain why it had different effects on different humans, of course, nor whether it was in fact ever meant as a weapon.

2) Space Jesus is just so stupid. Even if that is more or less straight from Ridley himself. Just, ugh.

3) I don't like the explanation of the xenomorph mural. It seems odd to me that we get a xenomorph at the end of the film through what seems like genetic chance. (black slime + human copulation = squid monster + Engineer = xenomorph) There has to be more to it than coincidence.

4) This isn't based on the blog post, but I'm still not sure what the point of setting this on another planet was. Why go through all the trouble to seemingly set up the first Alien movie (similar terrain/atmosphere/storms, same ship, space jockey) if you give away up front--for those paying attention (I wasn't)--that it's LV-223 and not LV-426?

Anyways, I enjoyed the film for what it was: a very pretty, admittedly flawed attempt at posing some Big Questions, with a good dose of genuinely creepy body horror. But hey, even if it tries and fails, at least it tries. How many other big blockbusters do that?

[Lumenskir]

It digs into the symbolic undertones of the story and goes a long way to surmising some of the meaning behind the film. (Seriously, go read it if you haven't.)
Counterpoint from a huge Lost fan: Just because someone has the time to write out all of their theories and connections doesn't mean it's in any way official. This goes both for superfans and creators, since if they couldn't find a way to incorporate it into the actual product it's just their unofficial musings.
It seems odd to me that we get a xenomorph at the end of the film through what seems like genetic chance. (black slime + human copulation = squid monster + Engineer = xenomorph)
The more I think about, xenomorphs really wouldn't be super rare if the black slime bioweapons were actually deployed. You figure that if you introduce it to a large enough water supply, some trace amounts are going to infect any civilian who drinks it. Since they don't start to show signs of infection for around a day they just go on acting normally, which for some amount of people includes some screwin', which implants the vagina monster. Infected guy dies, new 'mom' undergoes 12 hour pregnancy and gives birth to a vagina monster. From that point it's just the normal facehuggers->xenomorph scenario (assuming that since Engineers have our DNA we'd react the same).

[Magus]

Well one thing about the xenomorphs is they use the DNA of whatever they gestate in as a backbone for their own. So you're going to see wide variations amongst even the "modern" xenomorphs, let alone the various proto-xenomorphs created from the ooze, as to what exactly they look like or what constitutes their life cycle. Basically consider the xenomorphs in Alien and Aliens as just being one of many different possible xenomorphs on a myriad of planets--there could be some that are quite different (but equally deadly). The main point of the ooze would be to produce organisms that are are 1. dangerous, 2. incredibly difficult to kill, and 3. parasitical. Oh, and acid blood. I mean, maybe we can presume that the ooze is meant to work that way in some fashion, even if there are variations, rather than being total chance that it would produce a dangerous parasitical life form.

[RickZarber]

Which is a great theory and I really dig it actually, but still doesn't do anything to explain the apparent contradiction with the opening scene of an Engineer drinking black slime in order to seed a world. I mean, yeah, I guess he could be infecting a world instead, but that doesn't seem to hold with the barren lifeless landscapes or what Ridley has said about it.

And Lumen, I hope I didn't seem to be suggesting anything else but that it's just a theory.

[Lumenskir]

Which is a great theory and I really dig it actually, but still doesn't do anything to explain the apparent contradiction with the opening scene of an Engineer drinking black slime in order to seed a world. I mean, yeah, I guess he could be infecting a world instead, but that doesn't seem to hold with the barren lifeless landscapes or what Ridley has said about it.
Isn't that easily explained by saying that they're two different liquids? I mean, the Gardener had a small capsule which had a rock in it, the weaponized slime was in vases/was more eggy.
And Lumen, I hope I didn't seem to be suggesting anything else but that it's just a theory.
I wasn't saying anything about you specifically, just a grain of salt warning from someone who was deep in the shit. Mostly it's just annoying seeing all of this "Scott said there was a Space Jesus, this movie blows!!" when all he said was that they considered it and the final product doesn't implicate that at all. It's like hearing that the original plan for the Flux Capacitor was to power it with Coca Cola and being disappointed in the actual Back to the Future movie even when that's never mentioned.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

I still can't get over the fact that this movie showed what amounted to an on-screen abortion. Sure, it didn't work out too well but holy shit. This movie did some shit that I did not think a major studio movie was allowed to do.

[EVILNess]

Maybe the opening was a suicide of some kind?

[Lumenskir]

I still can't get over the fact that this movie showed what amounted to an on-screen abortion. Sure, it didn't work out too well but holy shit. This movie did some shit that I did not think a major studio movie was allowed to do.
So we're all agreed that the staples were the most off putting thing in the entire movie, right?

[BloodyMage]

Counterpoint from a huge Lost fan: Just because someone has the time to write out all of their theories and connections doesn't mean it's in any way official. This goes both for superfans and creators, since if they couldn't find a way to incorporate it into the actual product it's just their unofficial musings.

Apart from all the things they confirmed in podcasts and interviews? There are people who are willing to discount what the writers said so they can believe what they think is a better story but the writers did confirm a lot of things about side issues that maybe wouldn't have been entirely covered in the main series. Honestly, if you just watch the show and don't play the interactive games or watch the webisodes, you'd miss a lot of background stuff and maybe missed out on some clarification.

Regardless of whether Engineer Jesus was actually in the film or not, we basically have it on record that Scott is saying we pissed off the Engineers by killing one of them. And, I'm not even annoyed at it's on the nose. I'm annoyed because that idea doesn't fit in with any thing biblical that we know about Jesus. It was a little bit like Scott thought of the biggest part of Christianity and just made it an alien. Just because it's not in the film doesn't mean Scott didn't blatantly think it was a good, interesting idea. Which makes me think he has even less idea about what he's doing with this franchise than I did before I read the article.

And this is coming from a fellow Lost fan.

Which is a great theory and I really dig it actually, but still doesn't do anything to explain the apparent contradiction with the opening scene of an Engineer drinking black slime in order to seed a world. I mean, yeah, I guess he could be infecting a world instead, but that doesn't seem to hold with the barren lifeless landscapes or what Ridley has said about it.

It's not a theory. It was proven in Alien3 with the dog/ox variants.

[Lumenskir]

Apart from all the things they confirmed in podcasts and interviews? There are people who are willing to discount what the writers said so they can believe what they think is a better story but the writers did confirm a lot of things about side issues that maybe wouldn't have been entirely covered in the main series. Honestly, if you just watch the show and don't play the interactive games or watch the webisodes, you'd miss a lot of background stuff and maybe missed out on some clarification.
Ehhh, I followed Lost perfectly fine by just watching the show, which is really the most important thing to consider. I can't imagine that future watchers of the show will be tracking down past podcasts and playing along with the ARGs while bingeing on Netflix, and when people catch Prometheus on HBO during a lazy afternoon eight years from now they won't have every interview scrolling on the bottom of the screen.

I think it's perfectly fine that Scott has his own interpretation of Space Jesus, but he also made the conscious choice to not include it in the final product. Hence, it's not canon, just fanon from someone close to it.

[BloodyMage]

Ehhh, I followed Lost perfectly fine by just watching the show, which is really the most important thing to consider. I can't imagine that future watchers of the show will be tracking down past podcasts and playing along with the ARGs while bingeing on Netflix, and when people catch Prometheus on HBO during a lazy afternoon eight years from now they won't have every interview scrolling on the bottom of the screen.

I'm not saying you can't follow it without the other stuff because the games and podcasts don't really touch on character drama and immediate plot concerns like 'Is Henry Gale an Other?' or 'Who is the coffin?' But listening to podcasts and webisodes and the such did a lot to clarify a lot of things. And they're still accessible, so it's possible that, after seeing an episode on Netflix, someone might go looking for extra information about it's development and find the podcasts.

But if you compare that podcast to a forum post such as this or a review, which is the viewer really going to accept as being truer to the material and apart of canon? The podcast from the mouth of the writers or the opinion of another viewer who had nothing to do with the show's conceptuality and development.

I think it's perfectly fine that Scott has his own interpretation of Space Jesus, but he also made the conscious choice to not include it in the final product. Hence, it's not canon, just fanon from someone close to it.

Except canon isn't dictated by the fans it's dictated by the writer. It's about continuity and who is going to know more about the continuity of a series? Me or the writer/creator? Unless he later turns around and says 'oh, no, that was rubbish, I thought of a better idea', then that is the official reason that the engineers turned on humanity. Anything else is us, the fans, creating a fanon.

And besides, just because Scott didn't include it in this film doesn't mean it won't come up later. He's expressed in interviews that questions were left unanswered that could be explain in a sequel, so Space Jesus might still pop up. You can have your own interpretation but that is fanon. If Scott says something then that's canon.

[Lumenskir]

And besides, just because Scott didn't include it in this film doesn't mean it won't come up later. He's expressed in interviews that questions were left unanswered that could be explain in a sequel, so Space Jesus might still pop up. You can have your own interpretation but that is fanon. If Scott says something then that's canon.
If it comes up later in a movie connected to this one, it's canon. If he says it was something they considered but didn't include in the actual product, it's just his interpretation. To me, anything outside of what you can see in the theater is all just conjecture; Scott might be more persuasive, but not authoritative, otherwise he could have included it in the actual movie he was responsible for curating.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Ehhh, I followed Lost perfectly fine by just watching the show, which is really the most important thing to consider. I can't imagine that future watchers of the show will be tracking down past podcasts and playing along with the ARGs while bingeing on Netflix, and when people catch Prometheus on HBO during a lazy afternoon eight years from now they won't have every interview scrolling on the bottom of the screen.

As someone that watched all of Lost on Netflix this year, it works just fine without any of that stuff. Definitely my favorite TV series ever which is the entire reason I was interested in seeing Prometheus opening weekend (Scott has been hit-or-miss with his last few films).

I think we should all be able to agree that something is only canon once it shows up onscreen. Explanations given by the director/writer or the theories provided by fans mean nothing until they're put on celluloid because that's the only time it counts. George Lucas changed his mind a lot when making all of the Star Wars movies.

[BloodyMage]

As someone that watched all of Lost on Netflix this year, it works just fine without any of that stuff. Definitely my favorite TV series ever which is the entire reason I was interested in seeing Prometheus opening weekend (Scott has been hit-or-miss with his last few films).

I'm not saying you can't. I'm just saying the podcasts and extra material are there for clarification.

I think we should all be able to agree that something is only canon once it shows up onscreen. Explanations given by the director/writer or the theories provided by fans mean nothing until they're put on celluloid because that's the only time it counts. George Lucas changed his mind a lot when making all of the Star Wars movies.

If it comes up later in a movie connected to this one, it's canon. If he says it was something they considered but didn't include in the actual product, it's just his interpretation. To me, anything outside of what you can see in the theater is all just conjecture; Scott might be more persuasive, but not authoritative, otherwise he could have included it in the actual movie he was responsible for curating.

Yeah, no, that's not how canon works. It's not as simple as what appears on screen vs. everything else. What about the TED viral film with Weyland speaking? What about any potential tie in novels? Scott and co. have already stated that Alien vs. Predator are not part of the continuity with this film, but since you've seen them does that just mean that it's Scott's interpretation that those films aren't canon? There has to be some kind of authority to make the distinction between what is official and what is unofficial. Of course, you can make your own decision but I can't stress enough that when you make your own decision of what in included in the continuity that is fanon.

To return to Lost, Lindelof and Cuse have explicitly stated that these are part of the canon of Lost:


Lost episodes (noted by Lindelof as "the only true canon")
Lost: Missing Pieces
Lost Encyclopedia
Information released as part of DVD extras, such as the The New Man in Charge epilogue featured on the Season Six DVD. (this does not include DVD commentaries, bloopers and deleted scenes see below)
The Orchid Orientation film
The Christiane I's search for the Black Rock from Find 815
Information about the Hanso Foundation and the Valenzetti Equation revealed in The Lost Experience
The blast door map, the Incident Room, and the Island locations as seen in the video game Lost: Via Domus.


Most of this was confirmed via interviews and podcasts. Are you going to say this is an interpretation of canon? As Lindelof states, the episodes are the true canon as they're the main source through which people, such as yourselves, experience the TV show, but that doesn't mean that the rest isn't still part of the official continuity.

As far as Space Jesus goes, Scott mentioned it, it doesn't conflict with any continuity in the film and actually serves as an explanation to one of the questions posed in the film. It's hard to view it as unofficial at that point. At the very least it's semi-canon, but Scott is still the guy who decides the continuity, not me.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Canon is flexible. Anyone that reads comic books knows this. If it doesn't appear in the film or the viral marketing itself (I'm including the viral marketing because it was released in conjunction with the film) then it is malleable and subject to change. Splinter of the Mind's Eye was published as a sequel to Star Wars but had its canon overwritten by Empire Strikes Back.

The reason why we should take "word of god" with a grain of salt is that it's subject to change.

And for the record, I haven't seen Aliens vs. Predator nor do I intend to based solely on the fact that the idea of that crossover is stupid as all get-up.

[Lumenskir]

Most of this was confirmed via interviews and podcasts. Are you going to say this is an interpretation of canon? As Lindelof states, the episodes are the true canon as they're the main source through which people, such as yourselves, experience the TV show, but that doesn't mean that the rest isn't still part of the official continuity.
But if you're already dividing things into 'true' canon and everything else why should I care to keep up with and incorporate the, let's say, shadow canon that's mostly meant to either drum up or maintain interest in the 'true' canon? It's nice for dedicated fans or those that want to see what the creator thought, but if the creators couldn't be bothered to clarify it in the actual product then I don't really see why I have to go out of my way to change what I saw and thought.
As far as Space Jesus goes, Scott mentioned it, it doesn't conflict with any continuity in the film and actually serves as an explanation to one of the questions posed in the film. It's hard to view it as unofficial at that point. At the very least it's semi-canon, but Scott is still the guy who decides the continuity, not me.
Again, I could care less about the shadow canon, but you have to admit that Scott mentioning something in an interview doesn't even rise to that level. He has offered AN explanation, not THE explanation, especially when there could be literally any reason why a mostly ineffable and humanly incomprehensible alien race wanted to wipe the slate clean on their creation. The fact that he was perfectly able to insert a line of dialog to clarify Space Jesus and chose not to could equally suggest that he thought better of it and thinks it's preposterous.

[BloodyMage]

Canon is flexible. Anyone that reads comic books knows this. If it doesn't appear in the film or the viral marketing itself (I'm including the viral marketing because it was released in conjunction with the film) then it is malleable and subject to change. Splinter of the Mind's Eye was published as a sequel to Star Wars but had its canon overwritten by Empire Strikes Back.

Comic books are an entirely different medium though. It's like comparing literature and film. Television and film, however, have the same general creative process in conception, development, including such things as re-writes. Also, I'm not saying that Canon is set in stone. Lindelof and Cuse could turn around and state that The Lost Experience game is no longer apart of the canon and that would then be overwritten by the creative authority of the show's writers.

Also, why is the viral marketing included because it was released in conjunction with the film and things such as The Lost Experience, or Lost: Missing Pieces aren't considered canon when they were also released in conjunction? Just because you didn't experience them in conjunction doesn't mean that other viewers didn't.

But if you're already dividing things into 'true' canon and everything else why should I care to keep up with and incorporate the, let's say, shadow canon that's mostly meant to either drum up or maintain interest in the 'true' canon? It's nice for dedicated fans or those that want to see what the creator thought, but if the creators couldn't be bothered to clarify it in the actual product then I don't really see why I have to go out of my way to change what I saw and thought.

Because whether you appreciate the value of everything outside of the show is irrelevant to whether it's canon or not. Again, that's what makes it fanon because it's the information that you, the fan, have selected as the continuity that you follow. To the rest of the world, and the writers, the official canon will still be those points above.

Again, I could care less about the shadow canon, but you have to admit that Scott mentioning something in an interview doesn't even rise to that level. He has offered AN explanation, not THE explanation, especially when there could be literally any reason why a mostly ineffable and humanly incomprehensible alien race wanted to wipe the slate clean on their creation. The fact that he was perfectly able to insert a line of dialog to clarify Space Jesus and chose not to could equally suggest that he thought better of it and thinks it's preposterous.

That's why I said, at very least, it's semi-canon. As the writer, that's as near to an official explanation as we can get so far. If Scott doesn't release anything new to the series and no other films or information is released for the rest of time, that statement will stand as the most official statement of why the Engineer's turned on humanity. You can turn up with your own theory but Scott's will still hold more credence than yours. Not to mention, we have no idea why the Space Jesus didn't make it in other than 'it was too on the nose'. Maybe the Studio Executives interfered (as they have a habit of doing in the Alien Franchise) or maybe it got cut in the many re-writes that a story goes through from treatment to production. But unless Scott says otherwise, that's as official statement as we have concerning the engineers and their current hatred of humanity.

[RickZarber]

It's not a theory. It was proven in Alien3 with the dog/ox variants.I meant only insofar as the slime was concerned.

BUT ANYWAY apparently the DVD/Blu-ray release is going to have 30 mins of deleted scenes, 20 mins of which will be incorporated into an extended cut of the film. (http://collider.com/ridley-scott-prometheus-deleted-scenes-interview/172202/)

So, some answers forthcoming, maybe?


Also, by the way, we've been talking about only the plot the whole time. Which all of you saw the 3D version of this? I count this as only the 2nd movie I've ever seen where I was happy to have paid the extra cash for 3D.

[BloodyMage]

Oh, sorry.

My friend did say he felt like there had been a lot cut out of the film while he was watching, so it'll be interesting to see how much, if any, these extra scenes change the overall tone and portrayal of the characters

I only seen it in 2D though.

[Magus]

I still can't get over the fact that this movie showed what amounted to an on-screen abortion. Sure, it didn't work out too well but holy shit. This movie did some shit that I did not think a major studio movie was allowed to do.

It's been well-established that God has no problem with people aborting 1. alien parasites and 2. the Antichrist. Like the Pope has basically said this pretty sure. Also they decided to go with a caesarean which doesn't really resemble a traditional form of abortion, pretty sure.

Anyway, the stuff with the original plotline being that they wanted to kill humanity because they killed Jesus was pretty hilarious, but I'm not going to accept it as canon or even semi-canon. So many movies have ridiculous plot elements in them that are cut before the movie ever comes out...I'm pretty sure Scott does not intend for that particular element to be taken as canon (even if they kept in the crucified xenomorph).

[Lumenskir]

That's why I said, at very least, it's semi-canon. As the writer, that's as near to an official explanation as we can get so far. If Scott doesn't release anything new to the series and no other films or information is released for the rest of time, that statement will stand as the most official statement of why the Engineer's turned on humanity. You can turn up with your own theory but Scott's will still hold more credence than yours. Not to mention, we have no idea why the Space Jesus didn't make it in other than 'it was too on the nose'. Maybe the Studio Executives interfered (as they have a habit of doing in the Alien Franchise) or maybe it got cut in the many re-writes that a story goes through from treatment to production. But unless Scott says otherwise, that's as official statement as we have concerning the engineers and their current hatred of humanity.
This'll be my last word on the subject since I think we're just entrenching ourselves further at this point, so I'll just say that I think that as an artist you only get one bite at the apple when it comes to getting what you want to express across*; If I see a film in the theater that's what I'm going to analyze and consider, and letting a creator weasel in new information with interviews and bonus content shouldn't really be how things work. Plus, if I'm watching this movie on HBO in a few years with a friend, and she says "Oh, I bet the 2000 years line is a red herring meant to play on humanity's desire for patterns," I think it'd be vaguely sociopathic to go "Actually you're wrong, he mentioned an explanation they cut in an press junket interview, thanks for trying though," rather than "Huh, I never thought of that interpretation."

*I mean, exceptions can be made for things like Blade Runner where the studio just took it out of his hands and put in a plodding narration, but Scott's gone on record for insisting that this film keep the C-Section even if it meant getting an R; I think if he wanted a line hinting at Space Jesus he could have done it easy.
Also, by the way, we've been talking about only the plot the whole time. Which all of you saw the 3D version of this? I count this as only the 2nd movie I've ever seen where I was happy to have paid the extra cash for 3D.
I hate having to pay $8 extra for my movies, and it was actually harder to find a 2D theater playing. I tried to think of which scenes would have been markedly different, and I guess the orrery sequence would have been kind of cool if the planets were all around you, but it was still amazing looking even flat.

I gotta say, I love that Scott either maintained his weird sci-fi design aesthetic or kept the people responsible on the pay tab, because the look of everything was so refreshingly weird. Or maybe I just really love those awesome domed helmets.

[Magus]

Well much like Blade Runner perhaps the Extended Cut we get on DVD will fill in the holes for us. I mean I would consider a Director's Cut to be a "second chance" for any film.

[BloodyMage]

This'll be my last word on the subject since I think we're just entrenching ourselves further at this point, so I'll just say that I think that as an artist you only get one bite at the apple when it comes to getting what you want to express across*; If I see a film in the theater that's what I'm going to analyze and consider, and letting a creator weasel in new information with interviews and bonus content shouldn't really be how things work. Plus, if I'm watching this movie on HBO in a few years with a friend, and she says "Oh, I bet the 2000 years line is a red herring meant to play on humanity's desire for patterns," I think it'd be vaguely sociopathic to go "Actually you're wrong, he mentioned an explanation they cut in an press junket interview, thanks for trying though," rather than "Huh, I never thought of that interpretation."

*I mean, exceptions can be made for things like Blade Runner where the studio just took it out of his hands and put in a plodding narration, but Scott's gone on record for insisting that this film keep the C-Section even if it meant getting an R; I think if he wanted a line hinting at Space Jesus he could have done it easy.

I'm all for analysing and interpretation. Honestly, I am. But I realise there is a boundary between what I think and what the Creator thinks and I would admit what the creator thinks hold more credence. Are it the creator's thoughts better? Maybe not. I'm sure a lot of people can come up with better theories for why the engineers seem to hate humanity than Space Jesus. But thus far, the engineer's desire to off the human race has been a lingering question and Scott's concept of Space Jesus is the closest thing we have to an official explanation until a sequel or sequels come out which it's been heavily implied there will be. Of course, I have my own ideas about what could have set off the engineers, but that's the difference between canon and fanon.

And that would be pretty clunky dialogue for Scott to include a line about Space Jesus without having one of the Engineer's come right out and say it. Shaw pulling the aliens being their makers out of her ass is one thing but having someone randomly, and accurately come up with the notion that Jesus was on of them based on nothing is an entirely other all together.

Also, I would probably respond to that person about what the director or writer had said in an interview, though in a less jerk ass way. Like, 'oh, that's an interesting idea. Such and such said in an interview that s/he was going for this, but I like your idea better.' Then again, maybe I'm just a sociopath.

It will be interesting to see how much the director's cut actually does add to the film. Hopefully he uses the extra 30 minutes to flesh out the characters more.

[Azisien]

Saw the movie. Guess I'll fall in the middle of this thread's spectrum. It was an okay movie, but it had a pretty long way to go for greatness.

PROS:

Really visually appealing. Loved the designs. A lot of stuff looked pretty retro, even if it had a lot of modern paint (holograms, Serenity-looking ship). I did not see it in 3D, unfortunately.

Strong start. Some of the Big Questions are asked. Hype building.

Action and gore were pretty solid.

Fassbender as Android. This was easily the coolest part of the movie for me, because right away I assumed (and I think, rightly) that David understood everything going on in the movie, whereas this was more of a mystery movie for every other character. Understanding the Engineers' language would change everything. If there was signage on that ship, David could have been reading it the whole time, and all the other characters would just be like, durrrrr, dunno what dat iz. David's motivations in general are also pretty mysterious, even to the end.

The ending where Shaw and David Head fly off in an alien craft. Isn't that just the coolest reward ever for surviving a Sci-fi horror movie? Congratulations, you have unlocked God Tier Interstellar Space Craft. Time to go find them and, possibly, nuke them from orbit.

Edit: Adding a small pro. The vagina squid beast that kills the Engineer was awesome. So Lovecraftian. I would take stuff like that to stupid Xenomorphs any day. Weird Terrors from Outer Space shit.

CONS:

Answers/lack of answers to Big Questions largely unsatisfying/not present. Maybe this was intentional, but it all seemed like moderate guesswork on the part of the characters. I mean, people in the movie SAID it was a military installation with a bio-weapon. Yeah, in an off-hand comment on the bridge. Was it, though? There was little mystery beyond the initial questions, and no analysis. I guess it's hard to analyze when the vagina squids start attacking.

I gotta agree with Hawk, it distinctly bugged me how stupid many of these characters acted in the face of unearthing perhaps the origin of life in the galaxy. And just being like, GIDDY, when a fucking vagina squid python thing pops out of black ooze and starts hissing. What the fuck? I studied biology and dig animals and plants and shit but if a vagina squid python ever hisses at you, you back the fuck up.

Why did the Engineer come after Shaw at the end in the life capsule? That seemed like such a forced scene that tried to shove a little more - admittedly competent - horror into the movie. And it does nothing good for the movie. If the Engineer survived the crash, and really was so deadset on killing Earth, then he should have gone off to another ship site and launched? Not chase after Shaw who ---- wait, how did the Engineer even know Shaw was there? Did she smell like plot? Anyway, the only other thing this scene does is indirectly connect it to the Alienverse? Which I couldn't give two fucks about, this should have been a new IP.

Edit: small expansion on my final point. The movie had more potential if it was a new IP because it could have been a more focused experience. I imagine in this case the creators were sort of backed into corners, hoping not to step on the toes of the Alien movies, etc. And the movie suffered as a result.