The Help Thread -- Branching here because it's off topic

[rpgdemon]

There is no rule against levity. You can still be funny if you're showing your support. There was never any intention that everyone be all solemn all the time in their replies.

I'm sorry, but this really shouldn't be allowed. You don't know their situation, and as such, you don't know whether or not what you say could be incredibly hurtful. As it turns out, people kept being "funny" and showing support, and hurt Token immensely, because they don't know what is and isn't okay.

You're using the same defense that those who make rape jokes make, and it is not okay. "I, sitting happily outside your problem, think this joke I'm making about it is hilarious. I totally support you though, I'm just making a joke about something that's deadly serious to you."

It's not okay, and even though you think that levity and joking about people's problems is great, I think there should be a rule against it. You don't know what will or won't hurt someone, and if they're feeling like they need to come get help, they should be safe where they go for help. Allowing people to make jokes about their situation turns their safe spot into just the opposite.

Edit: I made this before I saw POS threw his "Stop it" thing in there, but I think that this is a different subject than that anyways, and needs to be addressed.

[POS Industries]

You're using the same defense that those who make rape jokes make
That's a false equivalency.

"I, sitting happily outside your problem, think this joke I'm making about it is hilarious. I totally support you though, I'm just making a joke about something that's deadly serious to you."
That's quite the assumption to make. You don't know me at all, you don't know what I struggle with in my life. And, frankly, fuck you for making those assumptions.

Token has not only my support, but my admiration. He's a much braver man than I because he has it within himself to open up about his problems. I don't. And I really, really hope he knows just how highly I think of him, and how completely uncomfortable this post probably is for both of us to respectively read and write.

Token is my friend and I love him, and I'm sorry if my off the cuff remark hurt him. But that's between him and me.

Stay out of my personal business.

[rpgdemon]

This isn't about you and Token, or anything that was happening there. I'm talking about your statement that people should be able to make jokes about the issues in that thread. People have come to that thread with issues of feeling suicidal, cancer, health problems, and it should be treated seriously, and there should be a rule against making jokes about the problems that people encounter.

[POS Industries]

There is a rule against being a jerkberger, and inappropriate insensitivity falls into it. There will not be a rule against levity entirely. We will decide when and where the line is crossed. Your concern is noted and appreciated.

In the future, if you feel the line may have been crossed, report the post and allow us to make the final judgment on the matter.

[Arcanum]

I'm with rpg here. I don't think levity has a place in that thread. It's for people seeking serious help with their serious problems, I'm pretty sure most people don't want to see someone making light of something that's a problem for them. Sure some people might want that, but I've never felt that the Life Help Thread was the place for that.


In the future, if you feel the line may have been crossed, report the post and allow us to make the final judgment on the matter.

I have done so to your post POS, as well as Krylo's, in the hopes that this matter is brought to the attention of other mods/admins as well. I don't think the issue is being properly addressed if the only mods aware of it are the ones making the light-hearted comments in the first place. (Of course it's possible the other mods are aware and this is being discussed in the mod forum, but better safe than sorry).

[POS Industries]

And your use of the post report function on this matter is welcomed and appreciated, thank you.

[CABAL49]

Yeah, while there has never really been a rule or such, the mods have been known to ban people for dickishness. But this is a topic that has several shades of gray to it, so I am ok with there not being a strict rule to it. But then again I have no idea what started this. Wait are we still not allowed to be drunk here? Why's that. Those were the best threads.

[Krylo]

I don't think levity has a place in that thread.

I (http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/humr.2001.14.issue-1/humr.14.1.83/humr.14.1.83.xml) emphatically (http://www.csulb.edu/~djorgens/abel.pdf) disagree (http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/2713839/reload=0;jsessionid=fY3J8iSJpHekQ2hfM35t.2) with (http://www.beliefnet.com/Health/2005/07/Humor-As-Coping-Mechanism.aspx) your (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1475938/) spurious (http://www.sciencenewsreview.com/send-in-the-clowns-humor-as-coping-mechanism/) assertations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coping_%28psychology%29).

Levity has every place in that thread.

I made the post I did because there's nothing I could really say to Token about his problem. It's a big messy ball of shit and there's not a lot that can be said advice-wise to help him through it, because there's no clean out in that kind of situation.

Given that there's no advice I can give, that leaves trying to make him feel better, if not about the situation, then in general.

Given THAT I felt that levity was the best tool in my arsenal at the time.

IF what I said offended Token, then he has my apologies, however this strange idea that levity and joking has no place in a thread where people have serious problems, despite the fact that clinical psychology has proven many times over that humor in such situations is one of the absolute best ways to cope, is one that I'm just not going to give much credence.

[Krylo]

In the future, if you feel the line may have been crossed, report the post and allow us to make the final judgment on the matter.

Also, I'd like to take a moment here, to say that the reason for this, as a whole, isn't to protect the moderators. It's because that, in so much as inappropriate levity or insensitivity might hurt someone's feelings, so does turning their problems into a bunch of only tangentially related drama.

I can't speak for Token, or Nikose, or Snake, or POS or anyone else on this, but I know that if I were to post something there, and someone responded in a way that was maybe less than sensitive, well yeah, that may or may not bother me. Regardless, however, it would not bother me as much as the thing that I posted turning into drama and/or arguments among the userbase as a whole, because, while I would know, logically, that it is not my fault, guilt is a stupid illogical thing.

I feel it's important to point this out, because I feel that public discourse of issues is, sometimes, helpful. But in situations like this, it's. . . well it's really not.

[rpgdemon]

Here's the thing: You don't know when the line will be crossed, only the victim will. And, they might be okay with someone joking about their situation, or they might completely not be.

It just shouldn't be okay to take someone's serious problems and joke about them. You're not doing someone a favor by making them feel uncomfortable and upset. Why do you want to fight so hard for the right to say and do things that make people offended and in pain, just because it might not have that same effect on someone else.

[POS Industries]

And if other people prefer to use humor as a coping mechanism, what right do we have to take that away from them? It's too subjective to allow for a blanket ban or allowence, which is why we have the rules that we have currently in place. It has to be applied on a case by case basis in relation to each person dealing with a problem and what they feel is over the line, with the exception of instances which are just obviously demeaning.

We have a system of determination in place, and it's really not up to you to decide how other peoe cope with their problems, or where the line has been crossed in a rappkrt between two other people.

[rpgdemon]

If someone comes in with a problem, bringing it up in a serious tone, I think it's safe to assume that they're not joking about it to cope. As such, I don't think it's up to someone else to decide how they should cope by making their problem something to joke about.

I don't think that people should be allowed to joke about a problem, if it's being brought up as serious.

[POS Industries]

And I don't believe that we should make a rule against members trying to cheer up people they care about, especially over someone else who isn't even remotely involved being bothered by the idea.

If, however, this is an opinion shared by the greater community at large, then we will be more convinced to change our policy on the matter, though I still feel that doing so will ultimately hurt our ability to lend and even seek support in many cases, and I encourage others to weigh in with their thoughts on the matter.

[pochercoaster]

It looks like a lot of the drama here could've been prevented if people used the report button and stopped backseat moderating.

And it looks like the worst of it wasn't POS' or Krylo's jokes, it was all the posts after those explaining why Token's problem is x or y and not actually a problem or whatever buggery. RPG's assessment of the situation is way off the mark here.

But ultimately, shouldn't we be gauging this by the reaction of the person who originally made the post about their problem, instead of getting angry on their behalf? Like, RPG, you've done this before in the help with life thread, when the OP wasn't even offended.

That's not to say a joke can't be shitty, though, just... there's a difference between joking about a problem, and making someone the butt of that joke. Near as I can tell POS's and Krylo's joke did not make Token the butt of the joke. Then Snake made a joke that was kind of crappy so Token was all "yo, actually think about what you said for a second, that's kinda messed up" and then a bunch of shit happened.

In other words, levity seems to be fine so long as you're not an asshole. Like the difference between Wanda Sykes and Daniel Tosh, for example. :B

[phil_]

I encourage others to weigh in with their thoughts on the matter.If I wanted to weigh in on forum moderation, I'd petition to be a mod. That said, people who don't want jokes should be free to tell jokers to fuck off, either in public or in private, which still isn't perfect because social norms about non-confrontation but what'cha gonna do? Besides moderate, I mean. Or trust that your friends on that purposeless message board you like are posting from a desire to help, or at least aren't posting to intentionally hurt your feelings, even if they don't seem to really get what's eating you.

pocheros posted while I worked on this but whatever. I really should've continued keeping my thoughts to myself (and I have kept most of them), but you asked and I'm drunk so here we are.

[Marc v4.0]

Yeah, levity should be allowed, but I think we should also be mature enough to know how to use it and respect when someone expresses a desire not to have it used with them. White Knighting Offense for someone else isn't really a thing that should be going on, that damages the Help thread more than anything. I know I don't want mods and users making a great big huge fucking drama deal over my issues in this manner here.

[Grimpond]

RPG, yo, I get whatchu sayin playa, but you'z bein real dickish in how you steppin on toes like dis.

Levity is pretty cool, but it has it's time an place like you said. It's ovah and done now tho, and we seem to get the basic concept.

It also ain't up to you to be some kind of decision makah about what does and does not constitute apporpros behavior dawg.

The mo' you try to dig in like this, the less yo message gonna be heard over yo antagonizin.

G-REALZ OUT!!!!!!!!

[shiney]

I think part of the situation here is that POS/Krylo's joking may have partially led to Snake's post which then was what Token felt worst about. I don't think he appreciated any of it if I must be perfectly honest, and I think it's an extremely trick grey area because there is simply no way of knowing how the OP feels regarding lighthearted support. I personally err on the side of caution and take all posts in those sort of threads as serious until explicitly informed otherwise. I don't think it should be a hard and fast rule though.

In Token's case, we as a community got burned by it, because he was very serious and ended up very hurt. Apologies were made, whether or not accepted remains yet to be seen. I think the report post button should have been used earlier, although I appreciate Nikose's effort because at that point I have no clue what post should have been reported and the thread was starting to tack off topic to the extent that we were having a bit of joking instead of responding to Token's actual post. I don't know if "pick a post at random to make a suggestion unrelated to the post" really works. Perhaps a PM to a mod would have helped, but then you never know when that mod will be around so that's difficult too.

In any case I don't agree with a "no levity" rule because that's overly heavyhanded as a response to a situation that was unfortunate and unforeseen. People should continue to err on the side of caution when in doubt, taking special care to really read posts and how they are portrayed before commenting, but there are a million times when a good lighthearted response is the best possible medicine. This just wasn't that time, is all.

[Krylo]

If someone comes in with a problem, bringing it up in a serious tone, I think it's safe to assume that they're not joking about it to cope.

I don't think you actually understand how it works. (http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/war/a/Humor-Helped-America-Heal.htm)


EDIT:

Like if someone's depressed or distressed over something, then, yes, they aren't going to joke. Well, a lot of people won't.

That doesn't change the fact that joking with them can help to alleviate the issue, get their mind off it a little, and/or cheer them up and put them back in a calmer state of mind.

Like Shiney said, there's a pretty big grey area there, and sometimes mistakes will be made, but that doesn't justify completely removing it as a thing we can do.

FURTHER, gonna just toss this out here:

How about none of us try to figure out what Token felt about anything in this? In fact lets try not to use that post or that issue as an example of anything any more than ABSOLUTELY necessary.

Because of what Marc said and what I said earlier. Token isn't weighing in, and we shouldn't put words in his mouth or emotions in his heart or try to say 'Well I think he thought it funny' or 'I think it made him angry' or whatever.

If we must discuss this, lets do it in a way as divorced from any actual people as much as possible. I realize completely removing the instigating situation isn't possible, but, well, again, what Marc and I already said.

[pochercoaster]

I propose a new rule: only certain nominated posters are allowed to be funny or attempt humour. ::V:

[Krylo]

I propose a new rule: only certain nominated posters are allowed to be funny or attempt humour. ::V:

I don't know, that still seems a little draco. . .

RPG, yo, I get whatchu sayin playa, but you'z bein real dickish in how you steppin on toes like dis.

Levity is pretty cool, but it has it's time an place like you said. It's ovah and done now tho, and we seem to get the basic concept.

It also ain't up to you to be some kind of decision makah about what does and does not constitute apporpros behavior dawg.

The mo' you try to dig in like this, the less yo message gonna be heard over yo antagonizin.

G-REALZ OUT!!!!!!!!

. . . so Grim isn't on this list, right?

[synkr0nized]

I am hesitant to comment on this specific issue, as I don't wish to assume anything about either "side" or the feelings of those involved.


What I will state here, now that this thread has been made, is that given the nature of that thread I've always felt it best to not attempt humor until the person coming to the forum community with their problem(s) does so first.

[rpgdemon]

I am hesitant to comment on this specific issue, as I don't wish to assume anything about either "side" or the feelings of those involved.


What I will state here, now that this thread has been made, is that given the nature of that thread I've always felt it best to not attempt humor until the person coming to the forum community with their problem(s) does so first.

That's what I'm saying, though. Like, I don't think anyone handled the issue well, in the thread, myself included. But this isn't about what happened there, and who did what wrong, it's about avoiding something like that happening again.

[Overcast]

The trouble of that is the degree of conflicting thoughts and opinions to what people need at any given time. Similar to past situations with speaking of opinions on bigotry and privilage we all suffer from our personal outlook on reality. This should be respected for sure, but it should also not be limited because of how it affects a person. Whay does this mean? It means that if someone is offended then as a matter of respect it is best to have a short, meaningful apology and no excess information short of your own ignorance of the other persons feelings on the matter.

Then we move on and seeing this respond to the crisis in the correct manner so we can help people. It also means that we ultimately stop trying to speak on someone else's(or everyone's) account and removing their personal integrity from any given discussion.

In short, if we just respect each other it shouldn't go this badly again.