In Other Election News: Gay Marriage Probably Legal in Three More States

[Krylo]

It's not presidential but it's still pretty important.

In Maryland, Maine, and Washington there are provisions on the ballot to legalize gay marriage. They are winning in all three states.

Meanwhile, Minnesota, bless its backward little heart, has a provision to add an amendment to the state constitution AGAINST gay marriage. It's a tight race on that so far, but the 'no fuck that shit' block is slightly ahead.

Auto-Updating Sauce (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/06/gay-marriage-results_n_2074188.html)

So, other than Minnesota being much closer than I'd like, this is pretty good news.

[CABAL49]

I really should get back with the ACLU on helping them get rid of Amendment 1 in NC. Several Democrat backed judges were elected in so we might have a chance at it with an appeals judge. Fingers crossed.

[Aerozord]

In Ohio it appears we need to first vote TO amend our constitution before we can vote on what to change, so I voted for that just for this reason.

Homosexuals deserve the right to be miserable like the rest of us

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I still advocate a much more efficient solution is just to ban marriage for anybody.

[Krylo]

But the sanctity, Smarty.

The saaaanctity!

[Krylo]

http://i.imgur.com/fKa9i.png

God DAMMIT, Minnesota.

[shiney]

THIS IS WHAT I AM SAYING.

[Krylo]

I blame you, personally, for this, Shiney.

Edit: No is back to a thin lead.

I don't blame you for that, though. You only get credit if yes goes through.

[shiney]

Well, "non" votes are counted as no, legally. So the % of non-votes, add to the "no" column. Same for Voter ID.

[Krylo]

Yeah, I read the ballot, too, Professor Election-Pants.

[Krylo]

http://i.imgur.com/VjjWU.png

Excellent work, America.

[Aerozord]

Excellent work, America.

nah its clearly photoshopped. Otherwise this would be evidence that the system works and voting can create change in our country.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I don't know, how well does it stack up against a couple hundred years of spiralling income disparity, continued oppression of the poor and the weak, and a staggeringly inefficient economy fuelled by waste being profitable?
Like the fact that this is on the ballot in 2012 is clear evidence the system doesn't work

[Kim]

Well, the entirety of mankind is going to die as a result of our refusal to push progressive energy policies, a mass murderer was just elected President of the United States, and over 100,000 homeless people are going to die under that murderer's watch over the course of the next four years. Trans men and women can't be recognized as the gender they are in many states, and even then they're often forced to undergo surgeries that not every trans person wants to undergo to do so. Gays, lesbians, and trans people still don't have the appropriate marriage protections on a federal level. Women still make substantially less than men. Doubly so if they aren't white women. You have to be married to experience some government benefits. The police state is continuing to grow. US citizens are still horribly under-educated and lied to by government institutions. The drug war is still continuing. US still has the highest incarceration rate of any country. And on and on and on the list goes.

The system doesn't work. Some of the people who are operating within the system are just less terrible people than those before them. Even that is not a sign of the system working, unless you've somehow convinced yourself that all progress over the course of human history was the result of democracy.

The system's fucked.

EDIT CUZ FUCK PROP 35: Oh, and your "working" system just decided that anyone sharing residence with a sex worker is a sex offender. The system is bullshit.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Well, the entirety of mankind is going to die as a result of our refusal to push progressive energy policies, a mass murderer was just elected President of the United States, and over 100,000 homeless people are going to die under that murderer's watch over the course of the next four years. Trans men and women can't be recognized as the gender they are in many states, and even then they're often forced to undergo surgeries that not every trans person wants to undergo to do so. Gays, lesbians, and trans people still don't have the appropriate marriage protections on a federal level. Women still make substantially less than men. Doubly so if they aren't white women. You have to be married to experience some government benefits. The police state is continuing to grow. US citizens are still horribly under-educated and lied to by government institutions. The drug war is still continuing. US still has the highest incarceration rate of any country. And on and on and on the list goes.

The system doesn't work. Some of the people who are operating within the system are just less terrible people than those before them. Even that is not a sign of the system working, unless you've somehow convinced yourself that all progress over the course of human history was the result of democracy.

The system's fucked.

EDIT CUZ FUCK PROP 35: Oh, and your "working" system just decided that anyone sharing residence with a sex worker is a sex offender. The system is bullshit.

Most folks know this by now.

[RobinStarwing]

Backwards state? I live here dammit!

But anyways, it is a firm NO on limiting the right to marry in our state and enshrining discrimination into the State Constitution. It was a close call but the assholes who ran the Yes Campaign are defeated. I personally blame their campaign for the loss they suffered as not only was it highly negative (and in some cases misleading). Also, their ads talking about how people should decide about marriage, not government ran right before the ads for Vote No on this shit which talked also talked about people getting to make this choice and how this would put a discriminatory amendment into the constitution.

[Solid Snake]

Yeah, Kim, it's still bad out there.
It still won't stop me from breathing a massive sigh of relief and feeling grateful to the American people that we've avoided even worse outcomes.

...And the demographics are encouraging. Our culture is swinging left. We're gradually morphing into something more progressive.
(It probably won't be soon enough to avoid the awful consequences of climate change -- this is a classic people of America doing too little, too late.)

I mean I get that you're cynical and bitter and you have every reason to be --- I am not trying to blindly delude anyone into accepting a precariously awful status quo -- but don't you think we can celebrate the few things we're getting right, that seemed absolutely impossible to accomplish in America a decade or two ago?

I dunno. I guess what I'm saying is, there are 360+ other days in the year when NPF can, and inevitably will, remain its extremely acerbic, pessimistic, cynical self. But last night we avoided a future with a President Romney, we didn't give senate seats to pathetic misogynists in Akin and Mourdock, McMahon couldn't buy a seat in Connecticut, Eliazbeth Warren -- perhaps the most progressive voice in the new senate -- beat Scott Brown, Dems won Senate seats in a year when they were expected by every political pundit to lose them, every state that had the opportunity made proper decisions about gay marriage, marijuana's gonna be legal in Colorado, children of undocumented immigrants will now be allowed in-state tuition fees for colleges in Maryland, and the folks on Fox News are wiping tears from their eyes and having mental breakdowns.

I can't force you to be happy about all this, and you have every right to continue to adhere to the accurate view that America and the world are still fucked. But you don't have to rag on those of us who are happy about this. We all know the reality checks. We all know, deep down inside, that all America's really done is accept lesser evils.

I don't think any of us are delusional enough to believe that this election erases all of America's issues, and next week I'll go right back to bitching about Obama's civilian-killing drones and climate change and rape culture. But for now? The American people have pleasantly surprised me. I don't see any problem in celebrating that.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

There is nothing America can do to erase it's issues. Nothing can change the past nor what happened sadly.


Honestly I think the country vanishing of the face of the planet or dispanding wouldn't even make up for the damage in the eyes of the world.

[Aerozord]

Average persons standard of living is vastly better than it was 100 years ago.

Worker conditions are better

Violent crimes have been steadily dropping for over half a century.

Women and minorities can now vote and hold jobs

EPA regulations are higher

Alternative energy is becoming more common

Animal rights is a thing that exists now

Feel free to complain that the world isn't perfect, its the only way it will get better. But stop acting like its so horrible. Your grandparents lived in hellholes compared to the life you enjoy right now. You never had to deal with slavery, plague, or child labor. Hell the younger members of this forum probably dont even know what its like to not have access to a global communications network.

We said progress, not victory. We all know there is still work to do, but just as we shouldn't be content with how things are it is just as harmful to toss our hands up and go "no reason to try it will be horrible forever". Even if there is no hope, frankly I'd rather fail trying to make things better than fail because I didn't try at all.

[pochercoaster]

I wonder at what point saying "system's fucked" meant "no reason to try it will be horrible forever." But I don't want to hijack someone else's post since that's just my interpretation of it.

I also wonder at what point listing the multitude of ways in which the system is fucked means "bitter" and "cynical" instead of realistic.

[Aerozord]

I also wonder at what point listing the multitude of ways in which the system is fucked means "bitter" and "cynical" instead of realistic.
Do not complain about something if you personally are unwilling to do anything to change it. If you vote against policies you disapprove of, work charity, make donations, protest, if you make an effort to do your part to try and change things feel free to voice your opinion. But a huge pet peeve of mine is watching people do nothing to actually try and make things better and complain about how "horrible things are" while they are sitting in a climate control room making posts on 500 dollar electronic devices to a global communication network.

[pochercoaster]

Do not complain about something if you personally are unwilling to do anything to change it. If you vote against policies you disapprove of, work charity, make donations, protest, if you make an effort to do your part to try and change things feel free to voice your opinion. But a huge pet peeve of mine is watching people do nothing to actually try and make things better and complain about how "horrible things are" while they are sitting in a climate control room making posts on 500 dollar electronic devices to a global communication network.

Because informing others of how the system is fucked up isn't a part of that change? Because using your voice isn't a part of that change? Voicing dissent isn't part of change?

Because not everyone- ESPECIALLY the people who are most affected by the corruption in the government- has the ability, energy, time, or money to invest in change. Because voting and charities are just two of MANY avenues of facilitating change, and seriously broken ones at that.

Because you don't have to do anything to prove that human beings have inherent worth and shouldn't have their basic rights violated, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with talking about it.

You know why change doesn't happen? It's cause of people going around telling people to shut up and ignoring them. If you tell people to shut up it becomes more difficult for them to find other like minded individuals and form solidarity that leads to movements that actually effect change. It's just a tactic that actually hinders change in the long run.

You don't have to do anything to prove you are worthy enough to talk about how the world's fucked, you just gotta live in it.

Edit: Also, "horrible things are" why are there scare quotes around this?

[Aerozord]

Because not everyone- ESPECIALLY the people who are most affected by the corruption in the government- has the ability, energy, time, or money to invest in change. Because voting and charities are just two of MANY avenues of facilitating change, and seriously broken ones at that.

But YOU DO. You do have time and money and ability. Because unless you are at a library right now I'm guessing you have some spare cash. Internet isn't exactly free. Fact you have time to make this post at all shows you do have some spare time. Use a few of your days off to do some charity work. Donate your extra clothes. Toss a few bucks to a food drive. Take it from someone thats gotten a food donation, it will really make that family happy.

I know most of you think you dont have much, but take it from someone that grew up poor. You have ALOT. Alittle bit of sacrifice from enough people can make one families life alot better.

[pochercoaster]

But YOU DO. You do have time and money and ability. Because unless you are at a library right now I'm guessing you have some spare cash. Internet isn't exactly free. Fact you have time to make this post at all shows you do have some spare time. Use a few of your days off to do some charity work. Donate your extra clothes. Toss a few bucks to a food drive. Take it from someone thats gotten a food donation, it will really make that family happy.

I know most of you think you dont have much, but take it from someone that grew up poor. You have ALOT. Alittle bit of sacrifice from enough people can make one families life alot better.

You are making a whole buttload assumptions about whether or not I actually participate in activist activities and what my life is like, based on no evidence. I'm not interested in making this personal and I'm not gonna trot out any of my life's hardships to prove that I'm worthy of merely having an opinion because they're ultimately irrelevant. And frankly I find it also rather tacky and distasteful.

And you're still missing my point: talking about these issues IS part of enacting change. At a VERY BASIC level, because finding likeminded individuals is the first step in forming a movement. Telling people to keep their opinions to themselves is a silencing tactic that fractures movements at their foundation.

Edit: I also don't see how pointing out problems that affect people today is taking away from anyone's ability to enjoy Obama's win. They're not mutually exclusive. Smells fishy to me.

[Grimpond]

aerozord, why are you a terrible fucking person. Speaking out is a super important thing. even if people are unable or unwilling to actually take action, simply spreading the word is a step in making the problem known enough to catch the attention of people who can and will try to do something.

Oh, and that shit here?

Do not complain about something if you personally are unwilling to do anything to change it. If you vote against policies you disapprove of, work charity, make donations, protest, if you make an effort to do your part to try and change things feel free to voice your opinion. But a huge pet peeve of mine is watching people do nothing to actually try and make things better and complain about how "horrible things are" while they are sitting in a climate control room making posts on 500 dollar electronic devices to a global communication network.

I want you to shut the fuck up because you have been doing the same god damn thing as the the rest of the people on this fucking forum for years. you have spent TIME and ENERGY committing to arguments and posts that you could have spent doing charity or donating money or traveling to third world countries to help

e: A pet peeve of mine is hypocrisy

[shiney]

aerozord, why are you a terrible fucking person.

As we have been over before, even if someone is saying something ridiculously objectionable, it is not your place to go to this level. Consider this a warning, and next time hit the reported post button before making a situation worse. I will not have this kind of BS blowing up the forum again, use the goddamn reported post button or don't post at all.

Aerozord, that's more than enough of that. Maybe you had it rough, but you make crass assumptions about people with no objective basis on their position or lives. You don't know these people any more than they know you and to assume they sit idly by and bitch and do nothing and insult them for it won't stand any more than Grim's response. Aaaaalso warned.

Keep it civil. NPF's leadership has ways of shutting this whole discussion down.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Hey Aerozord- fuck off.
Also you can totally post shit without cash. I am still bankrupt and homeless (mostly because of a combination of discrimination/putting all my time and money to causes) and I manage to post shit- free internet/computer use is literally fucking everywhere. Also computers aren't that expensive, they have blackberries in Somalia.
And even then that is not a valid counter because the most important part of progress is education, that is the sole reason we have not progressed over the last 100 years, is due to lack of education, cynical brainwashing of the populace into thinking they live in a fine, good system. So anybody speaking out against it is perfectely welcome to do so and is doing something important.

[Solid Snake]

Well, this discussion took a sour turn.

Let's get back to celebrating gay marriage being legalized in three more states, shall we? I think regardless of how fucked up or not fucked up the rest of the system is (and, let me just reiterate, I agree with the general notion that this goddamn country and this goddamn planet are fucked up)...that's worth cheering for.

[Satan's Onion]

Well, this discussion took a sour turn.

Let's get back to celebrating gay marriage being legalized in three more states, shall we? I think regardless of how fucked up or not fucked up the rest of the system is (and, let me just reiterate, I agree with the general notion that this goddamn country and this goddamn planet are fucked up)...that's worth cheering for.

Seriously, if we can't appreciate the little victories, how're we gonna motivate ourselves to do anything without being paralyzed with horror and despair? Then no-one ever gets helped, and the fact that we're the opposite of perfect becomes the enemy of the good.

Let's enjoy the fact that this tiny part of the system kind of worked a little bit, for now, if you squint and tilt your head--and let that be a white-hot blistering fire under our asses to save more people from the massive unending shit-deluge that is our system all the rest of the time. Enjoying what we got and appreciating how much more we need to get aren't mutually exclusive!

[pochercoaster]

I don't think celebrating the small victories is mutually exclusive to realizing that the system's fucked but if you take someone's valid criticisms as an obstacle to you celebrating those victories then you're making it mutually exclusive, which doesn't do a whole lot to further future victories. But this is way off topic now so...

Edit: also should be obvious but you can never be too careful so by "you" I mean "one" this isn't directed at anyone in particular

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I see it not so much a victory as a defeat under the crushing monolith of family values with the gay rights campaign, who had so valiantly laughed at the thought of gay marriage in their first big hayday in the 70s, finally broken beneath the boots of conservatism and middle classatude.

[Krylo]

Just gonna ignore that mess and drop this in here as well.

Tammy Baldwin, First Openly Gay Senator. (http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/07/politics/wisconsin-tammy-baldwin-senate/index.html)

So we still have a lot of work to do, a lot of system to tear down or change, a lot of issues that are terrible and horrifying and need to be dealt with. . .

But last night a lot of good things happened. A lot of the right choices were made, and a lot of choices were made that show we're beginning to grow up. It might be later than we'd like, but that's what this thread was supposed to be about.

Not about SOMEONE (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1215683&postcount=12) using this as a point to attack other posters, and I'd really appreciate it if we could get back to talking about that.

You guys were already having this argument in the Mittney/Election thread.

[Terex4]

Yes, we walked away with an openly gay senator, marriage equality is continuing to spread, we saw two pro-rape congressmen ousted, and Romney lost handily. All after 4 years of an intense fear-and-loathing based campaign.

I'm not getting my hopes up, but I really hope that this has humbled the republican party somewhat and they realize that a campaign focused on negative emotions and extremism isn't a viable strategy.

[Seil]

Quick, probably stupid question: how many states have to vote in favor of same-sex marriages before Obama can just say "Welp, majority rules?" Or have a nation wide vote or something, I don't know.

Wasn't that how it went down in Canada? We had enough provinces vote "Yea," in 2000, and Paul Martin basically went "Welp, Civil Marriage Act."

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I'd say maybe around 30+ for it to be considered. America is not a united nation and so pulling this off is damn near impossible.

[Aldurin]

Quick, probably stupid question: how many states have to vote in favor of same-sex marriages before Obama can just say "Welp, majority rules?" Or have a nation wide vote or something, I don't know.

It's mainly an issue of what level of government it's deemed to be handled at. With Federal level covering very broad issues that affect that many cultures and environments of the US, and the State, County and City governments taking increasingly specific issues into account, so the issue is properly handled by people representing the area.

I don't know if the Federal government will take up the gay marriage issue because while it is a broad enough concept for that level there is definitely a distinct geography around the opinions toward gay rights, which is why states are individually having to take it on for now.

Also almost all other marriage-related laws and rules are handled on a state-by-state basis, so I think it will either remain at state level or eventually it will jump to being an amendment in the federal constitution to establish equality among sexuality.

[Magus]

Clearly preventing gay people from marrying each other was an important issue to the Tea Partiers in Minnesota, a Republican party movement founded on...taxation and spending issues.