A Year of Living Gay

[Bells]

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/02/christians-year-of-living-gay-leads-to-dramatic-change-sparks-controversy/?hpt=us_t4

Washington (CNN) - Timothy Kurek’s motivation to spend a year pretending to be gay can be boiled down to a simple conviction: it takes drastic change to alter deeply held religious beliefs.

The experiment began after a lesbian friend opened up to Kurek about being excommunicated by her family. All Kurek, an avowed evangelical Christian, could think about, he says, “was trying to convert her.”

He was quickly disgusted by his own feelings, more pious than humane.

In fact, Kurek was so disgusted by his response to his friend that he decided to do something drastic. Living in Nashville, Tennessee, he would pretend to be gay for a year. The experiment began on the first day of 2009; Kurek came out to his family, got a job as a barista at a gay café and enlisted the help of a friend to act as his boyfriend in public.

The experience – which stopped short of Kurek getting physically intimate with other men - is documented in Kurek’s recent book “The Cross in the Closet,” which has received international attention, landed him on ABC’s "The View" and elicited some biting criticism.

The book is the latest entry on a growing list of experiential tomes revolving around religion. They include Rachel Held Evans’ recent “A Year of Biblical Womanhood,” in which the author follows the Bible’s instructions on women’s behavior and Ed Dobson’s “The Year of Living Like Jesus,” which had the author “eat as Jesus ate. Pray as Jesus prayed. Observe the Sabbath as Jesus observed.”

For Kurek, his year as a gay man radically changed his view of faith and religion, while also teaching him “what it meant to be a second class citizen in this country.”

A yearlong lie

For years, Kurek says, the only life he had was “his church life.” Being an evangelical Christian was his identity.

He was home-schooled until seventh grade, almost all of his friends were from church and his social life was a nightly string of faith-based events, from church sports to a Christian Cub Scout troop. “It was the only thing I was used to doing,” said Kurek, who attended Liberty University, the largest evangelical university in the world, before dropping out after freshman year.

Kurek grew up in an “independent Baptist church.” “We were evangelical,” he said, “but we were more conservative than evangelical, too.”

His churchy lifestyle led to some deeply held views about homosexuality. Most evangelical churches condemn homosexuality as sinful. Many rail against certain gay rights, like gay marriage.



“I had been taught to be wary of gays,” Kurek writes of his beliefs pre-experiment. “They were all HIV positive, perverts and liberal pedophiles.”

Those views began to be challenged in 2004, when he first encountered Soulforce, a lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender civil rights group, on Liberty’s campus. The group made the school an important stop on its cross-country tour targeting colleges that they alleged treated LGBT people unfairly.

Kurek was struck by what he had in common with the protesters at Liberty. “It really impressed me that people who were coming to push their agenda were able to do it and be so nice about it,” he said.

His doubt about Christianity’s condemnation of homosexuality, Kurek writes, was “perfected” in 2008, when a close friend recounted the story of coming out to her family and being disowned.

“I betrayed her, then,” writes Kurek. “It was a subtle betrayal, but a cruel one: I was silent.”

His recognition of that betrayal, he writes, led him to believe that “I needed to come out of the closet as a gay man.”

“I believe in total immersion,” Kurek says in an interview. “If you are going to walk in other people’s shoes, then you are going to need to walk in your shoes.”

To ensure the purity of his project, Kurek says, he had to lie to his deeply religious family about being gay, something that troubled him throughout the year.

“I felt like they loved me but they didn’t know how to deal with me,” he says. “They didn’t understand how to handle having a gay brother or sibling.”

In the book, Kurek recounts learning that his mother wrote in her journal that she would rather have been diagnosed with cancer than have a gay son. That experience and others left Kurek feeling outcast by people he loved, confused about his new life and conflicted about past religious beliefs.

Kurek was living a lie. And even though he was conflicted by his family’s reaction to his new lifestyle, he was longing to be honest with them.

The response

It’s no surprise that the “The Cross in the Closet,” has spurred strong reaction, especially from the LGBT community.

“I feel for the gay community of Nashville, and for every person who trusted Kurek enough to flirt with him, hang out with him, and confide in him about their lives,” wrote Amy Lieberman on the blog Feministing. “If I were in that community, I would feel so betrayed right now.”

In a Huffington Post blog post titled “Pretending To Be Gay Isn’t The Answer,” Emily Timbol, a religion blogger, expressed a similar opinion: “What's sad is that every interaction Timothy had during his year pretending was fake.”



“He was welcomed under false pretenses, acting like someone who understood the struggle that his LGBT friends faced,” she wrote. “He did not.”

But Kurek says that that was not his aim. “This isn't a book about being gay, I could not write that book, I am not qualified,” he writes. “What this is about is the label of gay and how that label affected me personally.”

Throughout the book, Kurek emphasizes that distinction. While much of “The Cross in the Closet” is about the struggle to understand the gay community, which he tries to address by enlisting a friend to act as his boyfriend, much of it addresses how his former church’s community – and family – reacted to his new lifestyle.

“I am actually not friends or in contact at all with 99.99% of the people that I grew up with or the churches that I grew up with,” Kurek says.

Kurek says he isn’t opposed to interacting with people from his "former" life. When he has run into members of his old church, he said he generally has quick, cordial conversations and moves on.

But some of the new distance is by choice. When Kurek’s mother told a friend in her church that her son was gay, the person said Kurek’s sexuality could jeopardize his mother's standing in the church.

The evangelical community has remained fairly mum throughout much of the reaction; most responses have come from Christians who are in some way connected to the LGBT community.

The change

Though Kurek goes to church less now, primarily because he has yet to find one that feels like “home,” he says he feels more religious “in the biblical definition of religion.” He still considers himself a Christian, although no longer evangelical, and says he is interested in attending the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America in the future.

Kurek quotes James 1:27 from the New Testament: “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.”

There’s no mention of organized religion in passages like that, and Kurek says it’s the institutions of religion that worry him most today. He talks about his once robust church life as a distant memory.

Living as a gay man jaded him to religion, he says, though he has not surrendered all of his former beliefs. Yes, Kurek says, he is struggling with certain points of his theology, but he has been looking for the right church. “I am trying to figure out what place in the body of Christ I fit in,” he said.

As for his original goal, to radically change who he was, Kurek says mission accomplished. He says he has conquered his prejudices of the LGBT community and is happy with the person he has become.

“If anybody had told me back then who I would be or what I would believe now,” Kurek said, “I would have thought they were completely insane.”

For example, Kurek now thinks homosexuality is completely acceptable.

His family is happy to know that he is not gay, says Kurek. He has a new set of friends. And he lives in Portland, Oregon, where he moved shortly after finishing his experimental year.

The author plans to donate part of the proceeds from his book to help LGBT homeless youth who have been rejected by their families.

He is now at work on a book proposal for a follow-up to “The Cross in the Closet.” The book will be about the years after his experiment, transitioning back to honest living while continuing to engage the LGBT community.

“I want to tell more stories,” he says “and humanize the people who Christians always want to look at as labels.”

I must say i'm not 1005 sure on how to feel about this... maybe it feels like a bit of context is missing, or maybe just the oddity of the situation.

I mean, for one, the article (and i would wager that probably a good chunk of his book also) doesn't go in deep on how the LGBT community reacted to his lie. And how were his interactions...

I wouldn't bother that much (at first) with the whole "flirting" thing, like it was mentioned in the article, out of the fact that he presented himself as someone's boyfriend. So, it's not absurd that he simply portrayed himself as someone who just doesn't cheat. Not "flirty" or "flamboyant" as many stereotypes seem to presume it's the norm.

I also understand his point of view, how it was all an inward thing. Not an outward one. He wanted to expose himself to that universe in that way and see things from a perspective that otherwise he could never have...

Also it really seems that he never truly had a problem with gay people, just had deep roots in a group that does that.

It is good thought, at least to some silver lining, that the overall experience made him more tolerant and open minded. Kinda of a mixed bag of ideas really... like, "doing right by wrong ways" kinda of deal.

I just really hope this doesn't become a "thing" that others feel like they should really really copy.

[Tev]

I just really hope this doesn't become a "thing" that others feel like they should really really copy.Why not? From what I gathered from the reading, he basically spent a year actively trying to understand society's reaction to being gay. This was full cultural immersion on a very personal level. He took the time to learn and understand rather than hate and misinform with his book.

Also, I know how what I'm about to say may sound, but I think it's rather telling how the blow-back to his deception from the gay community is quite similar to sense of betrayal some people in the straight community react with when a friend or family member comes out as being gay after growing up with them and thinking you know them only to be wrong.

[Shyria Dracnoir]

I'm glad that he was willing to re-examine his beliefs and to take initiative in educating himself about the reality of the situation.

I'm not so sure that this was the best way to go about it. While I understand he had the best intentions with the "year of living gay" exercise, he still misrepresented himself to a large group of people who could be justifiably upset that they were lied to.

[Tev]

I'm not so sure that this was the best way to go about it. While I understand he had the best intentions with the "year of living gay" exercise, he still misrepresented himself to a large group of people who could be justifiably upset that they were lied to.Yeah but as humans we misrepresent ourselves all the time for various reasons. At least this guy chose a good one.

[Bells]

I find it hard to put together decent analogues to this situation... but i wouldn't feel comfortable knowing that people are running around pretending they are something they are not just to get insight.

It's really the kind of thing that could go wrong really easy and real fast. I'm actually surprised that this guy seems to have come out of this whole thing with mostly positive results in his life (or at least he is showing only his best numbers...)

The concept of putting yourself in a situation where you see the other side of things is interesting, but quite complex as well...

Think of his mother... the one that confessed that she would rather have cancer than having a Gay son. Now imagine being someone who tolerated this sort of mindset and then getting shifted into being the very target of it... how do you go back: "LoL no Mom, i'm really straight.... but you should be more tolerant, though." ... yeah i just don't see it happening.

Also, as for other gay people who thought he was gay... i'm not so sure the reveal would be that damaging. I mean, it's not like gay people have secret conversations that only other gay people can understand or be a part of... but it would be hard to trust someone who you now know for a fact that has been lying about anything and everything to your face for a whole year...

And like i said, to me, is quite likely that he chose to do this mostly cause, his moral and values already allowed him not to be a prejudicial person against gay people. So, it's not a moral shift, more like an eye opening experiment. Broadening horizons...

[phil_]

Millions of people spent the same year being rejected by their families and their god for being gay. How come only the straight guy gets a book deal? I'm not sure how sarcastic I'm being, exactly.

[Amake]

I find it sad the guy had to go to such extreme lengths to figure out that homosexuals are people. But on the other hand, it worked.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

His methods were questionable but at least he learned that the LGBT community are people too.

So everything turned out good in the end. Well based on what's mentioned in that article anyway.

[Bells]

I find it sad the guy had to go to such extreme lengths to figure out that homosexuals are people. But on the other hand, it worked.

It was a proportional shift, i mean, he was born and raised in the polar opposite environment.

The actual sad thing is that so far his ripples won't reach much longer... cause pretty much anyone that had a toxic view of Homosexuality like he did before will see this and think of him as being "corrupted by teh gays" instead of, you know... educated by life.

[pochercoaster]

Wow, pretending to be gay for a year when you're not and then get a book deal out of it? This dude sounds really egotistical.

Why not? From what I gathered from the reading, he basically spent a year actively trying to understand society's reaction to being gay. This was full cultural immersion on a very personal level. He took the time to learn and understand rather than hate and misinform with his book.

Or he could do what the rest of us to and listen to and empathize with people instead of making someone's life like an experiment.

Also, I know how what I'm about to say may sound, but I think it's rather telling how the blow-back to his deception from the gay community is quite similar to sense of betrayal some people in the straight community react with when a friend or family member comes out as being gay after growing up with them and thinking you know them only to be wrong.

What is this I don't even.

Maybe people are upset because you shouldn't appropriate someone else's sexuality in a sad effort to "understand" them and then get a book deal over it when the LGBT community is largely ignored in the first place?

Empathy exists for things we don't understand. Even if this guy pretended to be gay for a year that does not make him gay nor does it mean he understands what it is to be gay. People will have experiences different from oneself that one will never, ever have direct access to. This is where empathy comes in! Instead of trying to replicate someone else's life in your own, one should listen to others! This is in fact a much better way to gain perspective rather than one's own distorted ideas of what it means to be something that you're not.

Running around appropriating other's lives in order to "understand" just demonstrates a complete lack of willingness to actually... well, understand and listen. The desire to empathize is replaced with the desire to "own" an experience that isn't yours and then talk about it. It's extremely self-absorbed.

As much as people talk about how "good" it is for him to realize the error of his ways or whatever, this is just... really unethical, in so many ways. Appropriating aspects of someone's life that don't apply to you and then creating a narrative about it is something that comes from a place of privilege. Because it comes from a place of privilege these narratives end up dominating more authentic narratives that are already ignored because they don't come from privileged individuals. Because the people who appropriate sexualities that are not theirs will never really understand what it means to be gay from a first-person perspective, the narratives that they create are distorted and may very well do the LGBT community more harm than good. It doesn't matter if he put a disclaimer on the book and isn't "really" trying to do that, because that's what he's doing anyways. A book about how evangelicals react to gays? Ask someone who's gay!

Moreover, this sort of occurrence isn't exclusive to the LGBT community. It's a tool among all groups that have privilege and power over others.

I can't see this is as a good thing at all.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Given his back ground and the people he's usually around. Finding his answer might not have been too easy.

Remember this is a guy who was practically programmed since birth to believe that the LGBT community was evil.

I agree that his method of doing this was questionable and will rub quite a large number of people on both sides the wrong way. However It still had a good result in the sense that he realized that LGBT are people too, and the friends he's made there seem to still be friends with him even after this reveal. Lie or not, it seems the friendships he formed there were true. The whole book deal thing is questionable but atleast he's helping out with funding the LGBT rights groups with the profits gained from it.

[Magus]

big lol at the reaction from gay people

I demand the same outrage when someone wears a fat suit for a day/week/month to experience how fat people are treated like shit.

[pochercoaster]

There are a lot body positive activists who are outraged by such experiments, and justifiably so.

big lol at the reaction from gay people

:raise: :raise: :raise: :raise: :raise: :raise: :raise:

[POS Industries]

big lol at the reaction from gay people

I demand the same outrage when someone wears a fat suit for a day/week/month to experience how fat people are treated like shit.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to communicate here since there's not really an equivalency in how society treats gays and fat people by any stretch of the imagination, and it seems like you're just saying things to be a jerk and piss people off, which is something we can and will ban you for if you decide to persist in this endeavor.

[Kim]

Seriously, what the hell is going on in this thread.

A straight guy pretended to be a member of an oppressed group. He faked his identity. It's not at all comparable to gay people pretending to be straight because when gay people pretend to be straight it's so they don't get MURDERED or BEAT UP or KICKED OUT OF THEIR HOMES or FIRED FROM THEIR JOBS or DISOWNED BY THEIR FAMILIES.

What disgusts me even more than that is that this man is profiting off of his oppression tourism. He's making CASH FUCKING MONEY off of pretending to be gay while gay people have a hard enough time getting support writing about their own actual lives. He's not some selfless great guy. He's benefiting in a huge way. He doesn't understand what it's like to be gay. He doesn't understand what it's like to be treated the way gay people are, because he didn't grow up with it and he could leave it at any point he so chose.

Despite this, he's being paid. HE'S BEING GIVEN MONEY FOR THIS.

Don't excuse this shit.

EDITED CUZ POS RESPONDED TO THE THING THAT REALLY PISSED ME OFF SO I'M A TRY TO BE CHILL

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Yeah but your right Kim, the fact that he makes money hurts and in ways destroys what he set out to do. Understand the LGBT community and learn to respect them as people.

He's going to have one hell of a hard time making up for that stunt.

[POS Industries]

Despite this, he's being paid. HE'S BEING GIVEN MONEY FOR THIS.

Don't excuse this shit.
Yeah, I mean, this is kinda the big sticking point here. Like, if he were doing this thing to make his life a lot harder just for the sake of opening his own eyes and gain some insight because a lifetime of programming has made him completely unable to empathize with the problems faced by the LGBT community, that's one thing.

But this whole thing reeks of hucksterism which is just immensely insulting to the people that this dude claims to be trying to help with his 100% for-profit book deal initiative he's undertaking.

[Fifthfiend]

Probably some fat people would be offended by people doing that. Or i guess is that a thing people do? Probably some fat people are offended by that.

I get that this sort of thing is generally well-meant but it also always has a pretty heavy strain of 'if you wanted to know the perspective of a gay/black/fat/woman/etc person why didn't you ask some gay people or black people or fat people or women people or etc people what their perspective is?'

Certainly laughing at the reactions of actual gay people would seem to undercut claims of being sincerely interested in their experiences.

[Bells]

I get that this sort of thing is generally well-meant but it also always has a pretty heavy strain of 'if you wanted to know the perspective of a gay/black/fat/woman/etc person why didn't you ask some gay people or black people or fat people or women people or etc people what their perspective is?'


This is way more important to me than "OMG PROFITZ".

I mean, he did not did this for others. He clearly says so. He did this for himself... but, couldn't you get the same rational if instead of pretending to be gay he simply made more gay friends?

I mean, he wouldn't see how HE got treated if he was gay, but sure enough a lot of the more close minded people would treat him like that anyways just for hanging around gay people...

Feels like a bit more field work than necessary for the same goal.

Now, about the book... i don't have a problem with it. Not one bit. Hey, maybe is a way for him to spread his experience over this fact... maybe THAT can help a couple of people as well... and he gets payed for it? Well... yeah, Ok. Fine.

Now, mind you that any talk of "He was in it only for the money from the start" is talking out of one's ass. We don't know that. Others have done the "live a year in this or that group's shoes" and created relevant point of views and stories about it. This is just one more.

Which is why i said i wouldn't like to see this into a trend. It quickly becomes moot and overplayed.

It could just as well be that around month 8-9 he got approached by a publisher that wanted to tell that story. His "fake boyfriend" knew he wasn't gay, and i'm sure a couple of more people here and there knew as well... so it is possible if they thought his experience could benefit others.

Hell, squint a bit and you can turn this whole thing around into a interpretation of "turning the other cheek" for all i care... i don't see harm. Actually it balances right now between pointless and useful.

It's just a matter to see if this story goes any further than this.

[Magus]

I just found it amusing that people normally eat up this shit what with "the year of living Biblically" or "the year of living like the poors", or, yes, continual fat suit experiments, (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kiriblakeley/2011/10/26/stop-with-the-stupid-fat-suit-experiments-please/) but that this was finally crossing a red line, even though this was the one particular one probably actually worth doing just for the amount of shit a person goes through if they are even perceived as being gay.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

That may be due to the later being a far worse thing to do then the former 3 things.

[Magus]

How is it worse? Seems exactly the same to me. I also fail to see how the ostracism he would face pretending to be gay was "fake", although I suppose it would be somewhat lessened by knowing that he secretly was not, so he wouldn't be exposed to the same level of depression. But I assume the amount of ostracism was at a similar level.

[phil_]

I just found it amusing that people normally eat up this shit what with "the year of living Biblically" or "the year of living like the poors", or, yes, continual fat suit experiments, (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kiriblakeley/2011/10/26/stop-with-the-stupid-fat-suit-experiments-please/) but that this was finally crossing a red line, even though this was the one particular one probably actually worth doing just for the amount of shit a person goes through if they are even perceived as being gay.But there were almost certainly people who objected to all of those. The failure of the specific gay people who are annoyed by "The Cross in the Closet" to be annoyed by every "Year Pretending to be Oppressed" book and then sending you an email pointing out where they were annoyed so you know about it (and thus can't characterize them as "eat[ing] up this shit") doesn't make this any less a thing that should be annoying to them.

Like, dude, Mags, you're totally doing a "if you weren't bothered by x, you can't be bothered by y" thing here. I know you're sorta joking and all, but still.

[Krylo]

The ostracism would be the same but the psychological effects of it would be entirely different, which is why this doesn't actually tell him anything about what it's like to be gay--the same goes for fatsuit experiments and pretending to be poor etc. etc.

I think most of us here are middle class, many lower middle class--would your struggles as a middle class person actually affect you if you were actually a multi-million/billionaire?

Would you actually worry about losing your job when you didn't really need it? Would you still take all the shit bad managers give their employees with a smile if you had no real reason to fear being fired? Would you actually stress out about living pay check to pay check if you had enough money in the bank to feed you and your family for years?

Of course not.

In the same vein, while it probably bothered him somewhat to see his mother say she'd rather have cancer than have him be gay, do you think that affected him even a minute fraction as strongly as it would affect an actual gay person?

Do you think being ostracized bothered him nearly as much when he knew all he had to do was kiss a girl, and go "I was never actually gay" and have it all go away and never affect him again, all with OUT living a lie, as it does someone who doesn't have any of those options?

Further: It's not the being poor or the being ostracized by x community or the being fat that REALLY causes issues for people in these groups. It's the stress, the emotional pain of loved ones hating what you are, and the constant denigration of society toward who you REALLY are that causes problems.

Sure being poor would suck even if you weren't looked down upon by everyone with more money, and didn't have to worry about starving (say we had decent welfare in this country), and not being able to talk to old friends is shitty, and being obese makes many things more difficult than they need to be.

But if I knew I would always have enough to eat and stay warm, I would certainly live a happier life. And if people knew their parents, siblings, and other family would still love them if they came out, I'm sure they'd have a much easier time of it. If overweight people could just take off their excess weight and go out and be treated like actual human beings whenever they wanted, their lives would certainly be easier.


Or to put it more succinctly; it's not that your friends don't want to hang out with you, it's that they don't want to hang out with you because they think you're sub-human or whatever horrible thing, and the effect that has on your mental well being. If you knew they'd stop thinking you were sub-human as soon as you told the truth, it just wouldn't be the same.

If you knew that they didn't think the REAL you was something worthy of disrespect or denigration, their disrespect and denigration of the fake you loses its teeth.


All that said: I'm a bit torn on this as a whole. The things Pochy said are certainly true earlier, but if this book getting all this press does happen to help some people stop being such bigoted assholes, even just a little, maybe it's worth it?

[Magus]

Well I probably misread the quote from the lady writing the negative article about this as being more negative than it was when it was mostly, "This isn't actually going to achieve much in the way of making people accept gay people" which, I mean, probably true. I don't necessarily see where it would be a net negative as opposed to a positive, though.

As for the fact that he got a book deal, at least some of the money is going to LGBT charity. Just keep in mind that other people are paid money to write anti-gay bigoted books.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Well I probably misread the quote from the lady writing the negative article about this as being more negative than it was when it was mostly, "This isn't actually going to achieve much in the way of making people accept gay people" which, I mean, probably true. I don't necessarily see where it would be a net negative as opposed to a positive, though.

As for the fact that he got a book deal, at least some of the money is going to LGBT charity. Just keep in mind that other people are paid money to write anti-gay bigoted books.

Yeah we as a nation should do something about that. Sadly the fourth admin makes that even more difficult to deal with.

[Magus]

Well which particular part of the fourth branch? The conservative media that is putting the anti-gay books out?

[CABAL49]

You know that reality show where it was supposed to be the CEO of a company going undercover as a regular employee? Yeah, it is similar concept to that. The fatsuit thing is stupid, and so is this. Cause in the end it is just pretend. You get an idea what discrimination like, but it is just that, It is a false idea of what it means to be discriminated against, as it is just pretend. His understanding of what it means to be gay is like Eddie Murphy's in White Like Me.

Can't post Youtube cause of copyright restrictions, but this is legit http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356

[Krylo]

You know that reality show where it was supposed to be the CEO of a company going undercover as a regular employee? Yeah, it is similar concept to that. The fatsuit thing is stupid, and so is this. Cause in the end it is just pretend.

Ugh, I saw an episode of that where the CEO of a fast food joint after dealing with the manager and mismanagement just closes the whole place down--which isn't the issue, the issue is that he dealt with the employees asking him not to with just a complete inability to understand why they'd want to work there under the guy who had owned the place.

Like when they told him they needed money to survive it's just right over his head just completely incapable of understanding.

Not to go incredibly off topic or anything, just ugh.

Also, I guess it pretty much does lead back into this guy being completely unable to actually 'get' what was going on by pretending.

[Bells]

You know that reality show where it was supposed to be the CEO of a company going undercover as a regular employee? Yeah, it is similar concept to that. The fatsuit thing is stupid, and so is this. Cause in the end it is just pretend. You get an idea what discrimination like, but it is just that, It is a false idea of what it means to be discriminated against, as it is just pretend. His understanding of what it means to be gay is like Eddie Murphy's in White Like Me.

Can't post Youtube cause of copyright restrictions, but this is legit http://www.hulu.com/watch/10356

I wanna say you're half right. Cause i see the point you're making and it's legit... however, i wouldn't call it false.

At least from the slice of information we're given so far, i don't see this guy going "Oh now i totally get it what is it like living like a gay man in this country". He is actually saying "Now i know better and i see how bad the attitude of those around me were", point to the fact that he states that he actually chose not to reconnect to some of his former friends and relatives after the experience...

So, it's not really false, cause i don't really see a claim of full enlightenment... surely he can never understand what is it like to live being something he is truly not. However, i would say that he claims to now know what others like he once was do as part of the problem. That's something, and it's positive. No?

Now, if he says he wants to write another book... fine. If he thinks he has something to say about what he lived, go ahead. It's fine. Personal account of a personal experience. Now, if someone like him gets treated as a "flagship character" or any sort of expert, or if he starts to ACT like that... than, yeah, sure. Call him out. He is clearly going beyond his reach and THAT could actually be negative to any cause he claims to support now...

But other than that? His experience might not change much for others, but i don't see him claiming that as his goal. He wanted to change himself, and he did. Now he is sharing, and maybe someone might seem himself reflected on that experience too without having to go through it... that could have a positive effect on others, so i'm ok with what i'm seeing so far.

[Magus]

Ugh, I saw an episode of that where the CEO of a fast food joint after dealing with the manager and mismanagement just closes the whole place down--which isn't the issue, the issue is that he dealt with the employees asking him not to with just a complete inability to understand why they'd want to work there under the guy who had owned the place.

Like when they told him they needed money to survive it's just right over his head just completely incapable of understanding.

Not to go incredibly off topic or anything, just ugh.

Also, I guess it pretty much does lead back into this guy being completely unable to actually 'get' what was going on by pretending.

What, there was an episode of that show with a CEO who was just an asshole? I thought it was all fluffy bullshit. This just makes it sound better than it is. Curse you, Krylo!

EDIT: Bah, I looked up that episode, that was just the first half, the second was like I imagined it would be. I'm quite relieved.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Well techincally not all CEOs are bad.It's just that as far as the media is concerned, people responded to the asshats.

Resulting in things being flanderized. Made worse then they actually are.

[Sithdarth]

All that said: I'm a bit torn on this as a whole. The things Pochy said are certainly true earlier, but if this book getting all this press does happen to help some people stop being such bigoted assholes, even just a little, maybe it's worth it?

A thought occurs to me. People who are oppressed and not in positions of privilege don't generally have the power to start a dialogue about an issue. Intuitively I don't think any great civil rights movement got much traction before people in positions of privilege started the discussion which then opened the way for the truly great leaders of the movements to truly get things done. We're talking Martin Luther King and Susan B Anthony type of people. The ones that truly deserve to be recognized.

I could be wrong here but I think we should encourage people in privileged positions to talk about these things (while making sure they don't dominate the dialogue) because it opens a path by which people without the benefit of that privileged position can take over the dialog and create real change. Theoretically if someone reads his book and their mind is even slightly changed about the issue they will not stop reading. They will most likely seek out related books and these related books (and perhaps other media) will be produced by the people really impacted by this bigotry. To give an anecdote we probably all know a frog placed in boiling water will hop out but a frog placed in cold water that is slowly heated will stay and die. It isn't precisely true but it does teach a good lesson. Change is best accepted gradually and this person does provide a more gradual introduction to the issue and there is something to be said for that.

Is there a still chance that more bad than good will come from it? Of course. Should we be wary of the potential of this to over shadow the stories of those more deserving of having their story told? Of course. Should we attack the guy for trying to do something good even if he did it in a morally grey way? Eh, not so sure at the moment. Depends on what happens in the future. The guy seems to be pretty clear on the point that he doesn't feel like he actually understands what it is to be gay and he is giving at least some of the proceeds to a charity devoted to the issues at hand.

[pochercoaster]

Well the "conundrum" is oppressed groups wouldn't need the voices of the privileged to speak for them in the first place if they (privileged) just stopped talking for 5 minutes.

This just looks like an exercise in privilege flaunting. It's condescending as hell too.

There *is* a lot that allies can too. There's all kinds of things to be done! But you do that by asking LGBT people *what* to do.

And even if he insists that he doesn't understand what it is to be gay, that doesn't make what he did any less wrong.

I've have a bunch of jumbled thoughts on this that I can't really write in a clear manner but I found this post that pretty much says everything I was thinking:


honestly, I held off doing anything about this because I didn’t think he’d be very successfull with his project. I figured he’d be shot down for being a manipulative privileged prick and that would be the end of it but, in latest news, he’s being published and appearing on the view. and I cannot be silent about how fucking disgusting and wrong his actions are, anymore, even if it’s a task that’s gonna take way more energy than I have to offer. we don’t need straight cis dudes speaking for us because they’ll be ~taken more seriously~ why do you think we’re not taken seriously in the first place?! because queerness in viewed as inherently vile and unrespectable and that’s going to continue as long as “allies” implement themselves as our unwanted mouthpieces.

I feel this was a book that didn’t need to be written. there are plenty of texts by people much more qualified and personally invested in the subject than timothy kurek and it was a smug exercise in privilege-flaunting to insert his voice into the discussion. you wanna elevate the voices of the most marginalized in communities of faith? how about trying to achieve that without dressing up in the identities of others and speaking for them? how about seeking those voices out and asking them how you can help get them heard? those voices aren’t straight, white, cis, abled dudes. they aren’t even gay, white, cis, abled dudes. how would this experiment have looked if he’d had visible disabilities? if he weren’t allistic? if he weren’t white? helping (and that’s a dubious claim) the most privileged queers does nothing.

if you wanna go on a ~personal journey of growth~ to break down your own fear and hatred of queer people, don’t write a book about it and profit from the struggles of those whose lives you appropriated before getting tired of the burden and casting them off. we don’t get to do that. send him a facebook message and let him know his actions are unacceptable. better yet, demand he stop production of his book, publicly apologize to those he’s harmed by publishing it, and give the money back to queer people.

Yes, I'm citing tumblr and IDGAF. I want to link the post but the background image for the tumblr is extremely NSFW although the text is fine, so IDK if it'd be breaking the rules to link it as long as there was a warning?

Here's (http://quietly-creeping.tumblr.com/search/timothy+kurek) another post (from a different tumblr) that also makes a good point:

It irks me on some deep level, these allies pretending to be queer to ‘prove a point.’ On one level, it’s condescending to us because it says ‘I’m just trying to understand you, by pretending to be you!' And on another level it comes across as them saying to heterosexist nasties ‘Look! I, a straight, able-bodied, cis, Christian white guy rubbed shoulders with the icky queers and it wasn’t bad at all. C’mon, just give them a chance and try to see their humanity.’

Here (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/derrick-clifton/timothy-kurek_b_2018359.html) is a response from someone who's actually gay and christian. Particular emphasis on paragraph 6:


As a gay Christian who grew up internalizing anti-gay theology, I can do without Timothy Kurek attempting to describe any aspect of what I endured. It's unacceptable for him and his book to appropriate and distort gay identity, even for the sake of reaching out to homophobic audiences. Despite attempts to position the book as a story of triumph over homophobia, The Cross and the Closet creates an illusory interpretation of how many gays experience Christian communities and everyday life.

The most troubling aspect of this project is that it's being hailed by various media outlets and reviewers as an intriguing and even revolutionary social experiment -- one that will earn Kurek a profit from book sales. Per his statements, a percentage of the proceeds are going to charities that help homeless LGBT youth. For many, this is a redeeming aspect of Kurek's experiment and subsequent book deal.

Kurek claims that after witnessing the anguish of a friend who tearfully revealed her lesbian identity and told him that she'd just been disowned by her parents, he felt troubled by his desire to "convert" her with scriptures typically used to admonish gays. And so he embarked on a yearlong quest to walk a mile in a gay person's shoes. While Kurek may have been earnest in his efforts to understand and even help, the implications matter as much as, if not more than, the deed itself. First and foremost, any experiment or intervention should be operated according to the principle of "do no harm." Amid all the praise and acclaim, what's not being examined is how actions like these have potentially large consequences, both for LGBT communities and potential allies.

It's problematic to enter into this type of experimental undertaking without full awareness or consideration of the tensions between groups that are often at odds. Not only is Christianity a privileged religion in American society, but it has enshrined its institutionalized homophobia and transphobia in our legal system via political leaders who legislate with botched interpretations of scripture. And more often than not, those leaders are straight men. So for one such man to conduct spiritual espionage under a "gay" disguise means that he operated with the privilege of sexual and religious identifications often implicated in committing injustices against LGBT people. And that very privilege is the lens through which he examines the experiences of gay people and then publishes his thoughts for the world to consume.

After his participation in anti-gay church communities and his brief attendance at Liberty University, he should have already known what to expect after "coming out" to family and friends. While he experienced social isolation and a number of other marginalizing experiences, these were attacks on the false label he wore, not on who Kurek really is. Plenty of gay people yearn for the day when they can share a story that's five, 10 or 20 years in the making, but they can't, because they fear losing their families, friends and even their homes and livelihoods -- for more than just one year. Kurek also bypassed the years of mental anguish and internalized homophobia that many gays suffer through. He was exempt from nights spent crying about a God who doesn't love him for who he is. Instead, he could sleep assured of the "rightness" of his sexual identity, without praying a single prayer that God would change him to be straight and save him from eternal damnation. He didn't face the prospect, let alone the detrimental effects, of reparative therapy. Gay identity cannot and should not be reduced to a mere label that one can wear and take off at one's own convenience, yet this is afforded to Kurek in his privileged status as a straight, Christian man.

This book may encourage homophobic readers to reconsider their prejudices, which I truly hope may happen. For many, it will be the first encounter with a narrative of gay experiences, but that narrative is told from the perspective of a straight man's yearlong experiment, not from a firsthand account. Not only does this oversimplify gay identity, but it may perpetuate stereotypes that community outsiders may otherwise not examine because the storyteller is straight. Conservative Christian readers, without an alternate frame of reference (other than their own homophobic beliefs), may take Kurek's observations and conclusions at face value, thus validating them, because his voice is perceived as one of their own, not one of the many gay voices already offering constructive commentary and firsthand experiences. After reading this book, people who otherwise might have been helpful new allies could emerge viewing LGBT people as helpless victims who lack the agency and empowerment for self-advocacy and change from within. To do so would be to ignore the rich legacy and impact of the LGBT movement, especially within faith communities.

Kurek may have exercised a degree of caution by having gay people with whom he could process his field observations, but many voices were already available to Kurek in books written by LGBT Christians and others who have become allies, people who penned their stories without needing to appropriate assumptions and stereotypes about gay life in order to draw poignant conclusions. But rather than defer to voices of expertise in the subject matter he was approaching, Kurek apparently felt that this experiment was his best recourse to understanding what gays experience. I'm heartened that he emerged as an ally, but I feel that it is arrogant for him or any other straight person to somehow believe that all it takes is living under a label to understand gay experiences.

Probably not coincidentally, the book's release coincided with National Coming Out Day. On an occasion when many LGBT people reflect on their own journeys and others share who they are with loved ones, Kurek offered his story of "coming out" only to return to his comfortable position of privilege. In the end, The Cross and The Closet is a botched social experiment that operates on myths about gay identity in order to sort through the prejudices of an unlikely straight protagonist. One can only hope that, in some way, Kurek's story changes minds. But will it have all been a waste if readers come away with distorted ideas about gay experiences, or even if they have their privilege validated?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Bells]

Except that so far he didn't claim to be a voice for the Gay community, nor did he claim to speak for the gay community. Only for himself... It's HIS first hand account of his unique experience, it's suppose to mirror HIS side, not show him what is it like to be a gay man, but to show himself what the people around him saw gay people like. He just put himself on the front line of the bigoted hatred, which helped him step away from his own prejudicial views.

Was it a poor way of doing it? Perhaps so, i still think he could probably get the same idea via other ways, since from the start he never seemed to have a real personal issue with gay people to begin with.

He admits that what triggered it all was when he saw himself being indifferent to a gay friend problems. And then he had another gay friend pretending to be his boyfriend through the whole thing... so, from the start, clearly this dude wasn't as repulsed by the LGBT community as some of his peers revealed themselves to be in the end...

[Sithdarth]

Well the "conundrum" is oppressed groups wouldn't need the voices of the privileged to speak for them in the first place if they (privileged) just stopped talking for 5 minutes.


At the moment this is how the world works. If one wishes to have any sort of realistic chance of causing real change one has to begin by working within the confines of the current system. Misanthropic rantings about how terrible the situation currently is and how we should change it aren't exactly productive. You work with what you are given and try your hardest to make sure that changes so that other people can take advantage of a more fair system later.

This just looks like an exercise in privilege flaunting. It's condescending as hell too.

This right here is a problem. Negative reinforcement doesn't work in terms of behavioral modification. Sure you might get the superficial changes you were looking for (and usually quite quickly) but in the end it pretty much always does more harm than good. When you have a person that is genuinely making the attempt to do something good but in a morally grey (or just plain bad) way being negative towards them isn't really going to help the situation. It certainly hasn't helped foster productive discussions around here.

I understand (in a very limited way) the latent anger and hostility that can come from victims of bigotry. I was quite literally shunned by essentially everyone in my school K-12 because my family was from a different place and I "spazzed out" when I got angry or frustrated. (I even got a group beating once in elementary school because I tried to join choir with the cool kids to get out of doing extra class work. There are other examples like my name getting erased from signup sheets for things and the list goes on.) These relatively mild experiences have left me more than a little bitter towards people in general and basically everyone I went to school with. Whenever I see an ad about stopping bullying I just get angry because no one was there to help me. These reactions are counterproductive and we should seek to control them in order to make productive dialog possible. Your feelings are valid and you should have and share them but perhaps not to the point where they impede the overall dialog.

And even if he insists that he doesn't understand what it is to be gay, that doesn't make what he did any less wrong.

If you can't see any grey area at all then perhaps we just shouldn't have this conversation in the first place as it is just going to turn into a train wreck that will do far more harm than good. And by we shouldn't have this conversation I mean I will try my best to step away from this thread entirely and leave you to it. Not that I expect you to stop voicing your opinions.

The other points are to greater and lesser degrees valid concerns (although some are perhaps a bit out of proportion). The first one in particular seems to be a knee jerk reaction that completely missed the part about the guy giving some portion of the proceeds to support relevant charities. I've yet to find a percentage placed on that and depending on how high(low) that percentage is it could be a good(bad) thing. But in general the concerns posted are valid and should be expressed but they could be expressed in a better way that fosters a more positive dialog. But in some cases that old saying "There is no such thing as bad publicity" does apply. Now I'm not saying the community should just sit back and be grateful someone in a place of privilege decided to "slum it" and attempt to help them. I'm saying this is an opportunity to start a meaningful dialog and if we concentrate too much on the negative side of his actions we lose some (perhaps all) of that opportunity.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

At the moment this is how the world works. If one wishes to have any sort of realistic chance of causing real change one has to begin by working within the confines of the current system. Misanthropic rantings about how terrible the situation currently is and how we should change it aren't exactly productive. You work with what you are given and try your hardest to make sure that changes so that other people can take advantage of a more fair system later.


We've tried this one for the last 200 years or so. It hasn't exactly worked out.

[Sithdarth]

We've tried this one for the last 200 years or so. It hasn't exactly worked out.

There has been significantly more change then people generally realize. Things are moving in the general direction of improving (although backsliding does happen occasionally). Perhaps it isn't happening fast enough for everyone's taste but it is happening and that cannot be denied. We have perhaps not reached the goals set out 200 years ago but perhaps those goals were a bit unrealistic to begin with.

Edit: To give an example. Alan Turing the man that basically invented computers and was one of the most important people in the British fight against Germany was chemically castrated by his own government for being gay. He had made the mistake of going to the police when someone he had a relationship with had told a third friend who then robbed Turing. At which point they convicted him of what literally was nothing more than being gay and gave him the choice of prison or chemical castration. The effects of the chemical castration eventually leading to his apparent suicide (There is still some debate about if it was a suicide or just an accident). At least in most parts of the world this doesn't happen anymore which is something of an improvement. Life still isn't perfect but one can't ignore the improvements that have occurred simply because they wish more improvement had been made.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

And yet we have greater wealth disparity than at any other point in human history. We are the most wasteful society in terms of our potential productive capacity in history- we spectaculaly waste our resources and our labour for the sole purpose of maintaining discrimination to a degree unfathomable to our ancestors. We have immense widespread crippling poverty, we still have institutional discrimination, we still accept these as standard practice. And this is not even counting the poorer countries.
This isn't progress- this is token gestures so that everybody can justify their terrible existence and not rise up to kill their lord and masters.
The "improvements" are ephemeral at best and I can ignore them because they aren't designed to improve anyone- they are designed to give the facade of a dream that you too can become an overlord- even if you are a black or gay or a woman- though we can't give them too much hope in this front through actual tackling of discriminatory issues because then they might realise that hey, they actually have power to fix the greater problems.

The exact reason we havne't made any change is because people accepted these small changes- because the liberals and the labours and the unions said that this was change- that this was acceptable- that this was progress and then sold it to us as that. These token toppings of our poop with whipped cream became the dialogue of change- that was what was meant by change- the revolutionary mantra was removed from the conversation because we were making progress, we didn't need such things did we. Accepting such things as progress is selling out to the forces of reaction, it is accepting their definition of progress which is precisely one of antiprogress.

[Bells]

And i have the feeling we are now talking about something slightly "else"

[Sithdarth]

Yeah this is a digression that shouldn't continue in this thread and so I will not continue to discuss it in this thread.

[Bells]

Actually your original point is pretty much valid. There IS a lot of grey areas into this issue. Partially due to the fact that we know very little about this guy and what he actually did, instead of what we were told that he did...

For instance, him making a book out of it, is something i'm ok With it, although i can understand how it might irk some people. On the other hand, i didn't notice that part of the profits were for charity, and that's certainly a plus for me.

Has he already appeared on the view or is he schedule to do it:: Cause seeing that interview could certainly clear a lot of the grey out of the air regarding this situation, like i said, it actually matters more what comes next.

[Sithdarth]

Just FYI the digression I was talking about was more the one with Smarty. I don't think a sociopolitical debate which will probably revolve around the evils of capitalism should dominate this thread.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

That's ok- the only discrimination I recognise as legitimate is against robots and that is demonstrably at record highs so you are all wrong.

[CABAL49]

Just FYI the digression I was talking about was more the one with Smarty. I don't think a sociopolitical debate which will probably revolve around the evils of capitalism should dominate this thread.

But it is perfectly relevant to this discussion. And also, you don't get to dictate which way the conversation goes. But what are these great progresses that you speak of? The end of racism? They just tried re-segregating schools in Wake county here in NC, On gays? We are worse off than we were in the 70's. Women's rights? Try being a single mother. This is a society were people send their days demonizing the poor. As if they aren't pulling their fair share. And the funny part? The poor legitimately believe that this system will help them. The US welfare system is pretty much designed to keep people poor. If they make too much money, they get it cut. Then they can't pay their bills and then get put on it. The lazy parasitic poor that have been used as scapegoats for the last 300 years. I believe that is when "Self Help" was published.

But you cannot discuss discrimination without first addressing the fundamental issues with our society that encourage discrimination. Because racism is hardly a thing unique to the South.

So I guess what I am trying to say is, don't just ignore someone because you find the topic uncomfortable.

[Bells]

You honestly think Gay people and Women are worst today than they were worldwide (or USA wide) 40-50 years ago?

Cause i really don't think so.

There are problems, sure... and we are more AWARE of the issues now than ever, but... worst? Not really.

[Sithdarth]

But it is perfectly relevant to this discussion.

Marginally at best.

And also, you don't get to dictate which way the conversation goes.

I wasn't trying to I just don't feel that particular conversation belongs in this particular thread and I don't wish to pull this thread more off topic.

So I guess what I am trying to say is, don't just ignore someone because you find the topic uncomfortable.

I'm not ignoring anyone. Once again I am simply off the opinion that the particular line of discussion with Smarty isn't entirely relevant to this thread and would be better discussed elsewhere. Also, I reserve the right to back out of any conversation (or line of conversation) whenever I feel like it because that is entirely my decision and my decision alone. (Note this is entirely different then ignoring the inconvenient pieces of an argument while still attempting to attack the argument which I did not do.) If you really really want to have this discussion and you think you might be able to actually alter your opinion should the right evidence come along then we can have this discussion elsewhere. (Unless the other active participates of this thread agree that we should have it here.) I of course still reserve the right to leave any conversation I see fit at anytime I feel like especially if I feel said conversation isn't being productive.

But we've strayed even further afield now than I had hoped and really should stop this now.

[stefan]

Considering that by all accounts this guy effectively lived in a fucking bubble for most of his adolescence and young adulthood, it's probably worth giving him a small benefit of the doubt in assuming he legitimately was trying (albeit naively and hilariously shortsightedly) to help by writing and publicizing this book, rather than trying to make money through exploitation.

Its important to remember that the entire problem with privilege is that people with it don't know it, and that in situations like this its more likely the result of well-intended ignorance than actual malice.

[Japan]

Kid can't figure out what it'd be like to be a marginalized member of society, takes him a year to find out...

Someone with that kind of astounding intellect and empathic genius would probably write an incredible book, guess I'll go give him money.

Alternatively: Kid wants to understand discrimination, paints face black and has dad tell him his loan was denied, multimillion dollar book deal ensues.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

You honestly think Gay people and Women are worst today than they were worldwide (or USA wide) 40-50 years ago?

Cause i really don't think so.

There are problems, sure... and we are more AWARE of the issues now than ever, but... worst? Not really.

True, Things have improved quite a bit since then. Racism has lost most of it's weight in the US (so long as things continue to move forward, it'll be on it's death bed in a few decades). Only reason it's still around is because it's passed down from parent to child.

Gay Marriage and rights is a thing now in most states. And is growing steadingly over the years thanks to the efforts of the LGBT community and it's supporters.

Being gay was comfirmed by science itself to be entirely genetic. Debunking previous claims made throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Segragation is dead.

Racial crimes almost always end in favor of the victims when it comes to justice 80% of the time.

Heck if anything White people are now actually starting to get blamed and fingured as racists. Even when they aren't. (like what happen to the cops that stopped me. Seriously it was standard police business and they had concret evidence against me that I my self saw plus wittnesses. I only ended up not gong down to the station because I had an allaby and proof of my whereabouts during said incident thus proving my innocents. Heck most of the time spent was me conversing with one of the officers about project D-Resonate of all things XD. And yet somehow they were singled out as racist for doing their jobs...)

About the only major problem that shows little signs of changing is our ecconomy and that due to a combination of the rich being greedy, and our country's debt being litterally several times greater then the combined wealth of the entire planet. Which effects everything else, giving off this false sense of the world not getting better.


Even more proof, stand out side your house for ten mintutes. If things have gotten worse, you'd be dead within those ten mintutes.

[Japan]

Dude, I don't know any specifics to the story you are stating about being apprehended by police officers for a crime you didn't commit, but I'm going to go on record as saying that you were racially profiled by racist police.

Sorry to tell you this but, people who aren't black don't have to deal with that shit. Its racism man, like straight up no grey area racism. You should probably be totally upset about it, but I'm not going to tell you how to feel of course.

I'm just saying, you can't have concrete evidence and witnesses for something that didn't actually happen. What you're dealing with is a case of "FIND THE NEAREST BLACK GUY QUICK!"

[Bells]

you can affirm that Non-Caucasian people of all backgrounds get pulled over and profiled more than any other group, i don't think anybody could argue you that point.

But you just can't flat out state that "non black people never have to go through that" cause that is just a reality-warping non truth. An unnecessary exaggeration even, being that it's a real problem that doesn't need to be magnified for it to be brought to light and noticed.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Dude, I don't know any specifics to the story you are stating about being apprehended by police officers for a crime you didn't commit, but I'm going to go on record as saying that you were racially profiled by racist police.

Sorry to tell you this but, people who aren't black don't have to deal with that shit. Its racism man, like straight up no grey area racism. You should probably be totally upset about it, but I'm not going to tell you how to feel of course.

I'm just saying, you can't have concrete evidence and witnesses for something that didn't actually happen. What you're dealing with is a case of "FIND THE NEAREST BLACK GUY QUICK!"

A security cam cuaght a guy with the same brand Navy blue smith's workwear hoody, black jeans and a grey hat, walk in and steal thousands of dollars worth of drives.

I wear the same brand hoody, same jeans, and a grey hat every day. Came in to the store the day after the theift. And the first thing I did was look at the drives. I left the store with paper and my hands in my pocket. And came back in right away to pick up something I forgot.

They were in the right to call me into question. Besides I wasn't the only one asked as a another guy wearing the same colored hoody walked away from the cop as I was called over.

If it was out of racism, they would have just arrested me the second I looked at the drives and be done with it seeing as they were there all day. Not to mention the staff members were stalking everyone in the store.

My point is, it's not nearly as wide spread a problem as it was back in the 50s-70s.

[Nique]

you can affirm that Non-Caucasian people of all backgrounds get pulled over and profiled more than any other group, i don't think anybody could argue you that point.

But you just can't flat out state that "non black people never have to go through that" cause that is just a reality-warping non truth. An unnecessary exaggeration even, being that it's a real problem that doesn't need to be magnified for it to be brought to light and noticed.

Traffic cops also harass you if you look poor

[Japan]

Traffic cops also harass you if you look poor

this is also true