Big Bang Theory: Worst Thing on TV or Just the Unfunniest Thing on TV? Discuss.

[Lumenskir]

Pretty much what the title says.

It Is Clearly The Worst
Exhibit A - The Problem With The Big Bang Theory (http://butmyopinionisright.tumblr.com/post/31079561065/the-problem-with-the-big-bang-theory)
The humour in The Big Bang theory relies on the audience siding with and relating to Penny, the character coded as “normal” in comparison to the main four guys. It also relies on the audience having a sense of superiority over Leonard, Raj, Sheldon and Howard. We’re supposed to feel like we’re cooler than them and that we’re better than them. This then prompts us to laugh at the things which make them nerdy, which stop them being cool, which make them lesser. This is done, in my opinion, to stop them from seeming intimidating. It’s essentially Chuck Lorre saying “Don’t worry, these guys may have fancy degrees, they may be more successful and more intelligent than you but they like sci-fi and read comics. They’re socially awkward and can’t speak to girls. You’re much cooler than they are so you’re still better than them.”

Exhibit B - Ok, this is probably covered by the subtext of the link above, but I think a specific example speaks volumes:

So, there's an episode where the nerds get a box of movie memorabilia. In the box is the authentic ring prop used in the Lord of the Rings movies. The nerds basically spend the whole episode fighting over it.

In the middle of the episode, the girl comes over, sees them fighting over it, and asks what they're fighting over. The nerds have to explain to her what the ring is, and then what Lord of the Rings is.

So, the show wants me to believe that the girl, who is trying to be an actress in Hollywood, has no idea what Lord of the Rings is. You might remember Lord of the Rings as the movie series that made, conservatively, all of the money in the world. It eventually won every Oscar. Literally everyone saw it. But the only joke they could muster was her bafflement at "the Lord of the Rings thing."

Exhibit C - Raj

No, It Is Just The Unfunniest Show on Television

Exhibit A - I like many funny shows. I've watched many episodes of BBT. I've been able to predict exact punchlines based on the lazy setups, I've been able to comprehend why some writer thought it should be seen as funny, but I've never laughed once.

Exhibit B - My douchebag housemate loves it.

Case closed, but extra evidence welcomed.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

See the main problem with this show is that Sheldon is actually really really stupid- lots of the stuff he says is either tremendously outdated or demonstrably wrong. One time he spent the entire episode working on a solution to a problem that was solved in the 50s.
I mean there is also that their jokes aren't funny and its stupid and poorly written and the characters are all huge stereotypes but like this is the main problem.

[The Artist Formerly Known as Hawk]

Can't say I've watched it a whole lot but I've seen the odd episode here and there. The thing I find odd is that, most of the jokes require you to have an understanding of the context in which they're made. IE, you need to be a major nerd to get the reference. But the show itself is taking the absolute piss out of the nerd stereotype, which is somewhat counter-intuitive.

Like, is it aimed at nerd stereotype viewers, or people who view all nerdy people as that stereotype? Is the entire show an in-joke for nerd culture, or taking the piss out of it? I'm honestly not sure.

And this is before we get into the subject of whether the jokes are actually funny or not, but that's subjective anyway.

[Aerozord]

maybe it relies on the assumption that all nerds are also masochists and enjoy themselves being viewed as the underdogs and part of this elite circle of individuals "in the know" and that the normals aren't smart enough to understand things

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If you are majorly into whatever they are joking about though you will find their jokes conceptually flawed and not as funny as the shit you and your friends randomly come up with. You need a passing acquaintance with what they are referencing ie the average person- which is where the jokes are aimed.

[Lumenskir]

If you are majorly into whatever they are joking about though you will find their jokes conceptually flawed and not as funny as the shit you and your friends randomly come up with. You need a passing acquaintance with what they are referencing ie the average person- which is where the jokes are aimed.
Agreed. I'm not really seeing what 'context' you're talking about, Hawk. At most, the nerds will say something, like a theorem or scientist's name or some 'obscure' 'nerd culture' reference. Then the audience laughs.

At the mention.

Not at anything deeper or something that requires a leap from A -> B. It's just "Here is something that sounds nerdy to 'normals', laugh." Watching BBT honestly makes you awed at how other comedies manage it. "You mean you can trust the audience to be aware of basic pop culture, and then you can actually tell a deeper joke...baffling."*

*For instance, here's a simple joke that has more understanding of LotR and nerd culture (and, probably not coincidentally, laughs) than the entire BBT episode I referenced:

Tom: Well, you are a huge nerd. But I’d be sorry to see you go, man.
Ben: Thanks, Tom.
Tom: So, are you going on like, a year long walking tour of the set of Lord of the Rings in New Zealand or..?
Ben: To be honest with you, I wasn’t a fan of Peter Jackson’s interpretation so you can put that one away.

[Nique]

I suspected as much after about one episode, and also constantly hearing dumb stuff from the show being regurgitated by friends who I like but don't have good taste in entertainment.

It's nice to know that I have somewhat reliable instincts.

EDIT: I would wager that Two and a Half Men is still un-funnier, but like, I'm not saying that would necessarily be a safe bet.

EDIT II:

Tom: Well, you are a huge nerd. But I’d be sorry to see you go, man.
Ben: Thanks, Tom.
Tom: So, are you going on like, a year long walking tour of the set of Lord of the Rings in New Zealand or..?
Ben: To be honest with you, I wasn’t a fan of Peter Jackson’s interpretation so you can put that one away.

Oh, Parks & Rec! Yes, this.

[Amake]

I disliked BBT from the very first episode I watched. I didn't know anything about it, but I thought it was one among dozens of cheap, generic shows solidly targeted at the lowest common denominator - the kind where at least half the jokes are that someone says something related to sex, or has a sex life, or is awkward at the mention of something related to sex or the suggestion that someone has a sex life - with the gimmick that some characters are nerds and one is super nerdy and probably autistic (but still tolerated by everyone to a degree that to me as an Aspie screams "fake").

Then I found out it was made up by the same guy who made up Two and a Half Men and went "I'm Jack's complete lack of surprise."

Then I read the article linked above and was more like "Why don't they just put on a Goddamn minstrel show and make the characters wear blackface as well as huge signs that say 'nerd'? I'm sure at least fifteen million people would eat that up too, and it wouldn't be any more offensive than it already is."

So there that is.

[POS Industries]

Yeah, it's kind of a shitty show and all, Amake, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't pull the "nerd blackface" card since that's kinda dismissing generations of racial oppression by likening it to picking on nerds, which is totally sucky but not nearly as bad as what black people have to deal with.

Thanks!

[Sithdarth]

See the main problem with this show is that Sheldon is actually really really stupid- lots of the stuff he says is either tremendously outdated or demonstrably wrong. One time he spent the entire episode working on a solution to a problem that was solved in the 50s.

The Graphene thing was stupid as hell. Wave-particle duality is like High School level science now. Also, Lenard's lab/work is just a hodgepodge of random things sometimes related to LASERs. Don't even get me started on that whole free electron LASER episode.

Now that being said I do enjoy watching the show but not for the reason the writers intended. To me its basically an episodic B-movie that I can mock in the vein of MST3000. Like when they attempt a joke I'm usually laughing at the idea that the person that wrote it actually thought that would be funny. I tend to be really meta about things though. (Actually the lack of meta is a pretty huge red flag that the writers don't really get the nerd culture.)

[Bells]

The way you guys talk about this show reeeeeeeeeally makes y'all look like a bunch of HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TURs... like, really really HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TUR. Lab-Coat-Wearing HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TURs.

I like the show for a goof, watch it here and there... but if you look at the list of Sitcoms i liked you'll see Mad About You, Taxi, Wings, Perfect Strangers, Seinfeld, That's 70's show (part of it), 3rd rock from the sun, Spin City, 30 Rock (most of it), News Radio and etc...

So i like overly exaggerated goofball underdog un-drama... tune off your brain, have a laugh about the incredibly inept jewish astronaut boy having a discussion with his mother over the Nasa-Phone... it's fine... it's fine...

[Lumenskir]

I would wager that Two and a Half Men is still un-funnier, but like, I'm not saying that would necessarily be a safe bet.
See, I would have agreed with this in the past, but I eventually realized that Two and a Half Men is basically just a Mad Libs with [misogynistic "joke"], [fat "joke"], ["raunchy" "joke"], [poor "joke"] labels alongside [character name] and [adjective]. It's less trying to be funny and more filling time.*

*Also, 2.5M at least has the common decency god gave pond scum to write episodes with an endings. BBT seems to literally be written until they fill out 22 minutes and then just call it a day. I like to imagine every script just ends with "who needs third acts lol"

BBT seems to seek out new vectors to be unfunny in. Since literally every character only has (at most) two consistent characteristics you can see the strain of the writer's room as they try to find ways to introduce homophobia or sexism or whatnot into any given scenario.
(but still tolerated by everyone to a degree that to me as an Aspie screams "fake").
The whole Sheldon thing is probably the most bizarre thing about the whole show. Like, he's literally the villain of the show, there is absolutely no reason any of the characters should/would ever tolerate him.

And I say this as somebody who loves stuff like The League and It's Always Sunny, shows basically built upon a foundation of main characters who rag on and generally make each other miserable, but they still show that (1) no one else gets them/will tolerate them and (2) they all continue to do (quasi-)beneficial things for one another to show why they consider themselves friends. Howard and Raj only seem to tolerate Sheldon because he lives with Leonard, and Leonard should be trying to move out literally every moment he can.
The way you guys talk about this show reeeeeeeeeally makes y'all look like a bunch of HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TURs... like, really really HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TUR. Lab-Coat-Wearing HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TURs.
Bells, people hating something you like, and discussing why they hate it without ever once mentioning that it's popular, does not fit under any definition of hipster besides "People who don't like the things I like are hipsters." hth

[Nique]

Bells, I feel like your definition of 'HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TUR' is inclusive of anyone who has even reasonable complaints about something lacking in quality or authenticity, which is an exaggeration to such a degree that it is a wrong definition.

EDIT: I didn't realize we had a filter for hipster. Interesting,

[POS Industries]

Hang on I need to test this:

HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TURs.

EDIT: Oh hey look at that, when did we put in that wordfilter?

[Revising Ocelot]

Hang on I need to test this:

HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TURs.

EDIT: Oh hey look at that, when did we put in that wordfilter?

I think it was Fifthfiend related.

I've seen Robin still using that emoticon that begins with ^_ and not noticing the... plump results.

[POS Industries]

I think it was Fifthfiend related.

I've seen Robin still using that emoticon that begins with ^_ and not noticing the... plump results.
I want to say synk, actually. Feels more recent.

As for the butts emote, that's Fenris' greatest work, if I recall correctly. We really need build a statue in his honor for that one.

[Revising Ocelot]

I want to say synk, actually. Feels more recent.

As for the butts emote, that's Fenris' greatest work, if I recall correctly. We really need build a statue in his honor for that one.

I meant it was inspired by Fifthfiend. It was definitely halfway through last year.

[POS Industries]

Ah, fair enough.

[Bells]

Nah i just found it kinda funny that the comments were like "i just watch it to see how they get the real scientific concepts soooo wrong" I just find it funny that anybody would watch a sitcom "ironically", not rubbing intented, i swear.

TBBT is still a "old style" sitcom, with the audience and the absurd story lines and thin plots, but it has blossom... so, ok!

[Amake]

Yeah, it's kind of a shitty show and all, Amake, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't pull the "nerd blackface" card since that's kinda dismissing generations of racial oppression by likening it to picking on nerds, which is totally sucky but not nearly as bad as what black people have to deal with.

Thanks! Yeah I see how it could be taken that way. I got a little carried away thinking about "things involving laughing at people for being different" and totally forgot racism might involve doing a lot more than laughing, like only an insensitive white guy could. Sorry.

Big Bang Theory: It's decidedly less offensive than minstrel shows! There's your new slogan, Chuck Lorre.

[Aerozord]

Lets be honest you see very few legit examples of nerds in anything. They are either over the top stereotypes that understand nerd culture and literally nothing else or they are "hollywood nerds" that are only nerds because they are quirky, intelligent, and because the show keeps insisting they are.

Then again this is television so I guess archetypes are kind of assumed. In real life nerds are nerds more because they embrace their non-mainstream interests over conforming to the norms. They aren't obsessed or atleast no more obsessed than a reality TV or sports fan. Just our interests carry a social stigma, generally we aren't any more or less adept at other things or prioritize things differently.

[stefan]

BBT is far more interesting when you approach it from the perspective that its a satire of "proud nerd culture," taking the kind of people who use the word jock unironically and exposing them for the sociopathic, viciously bitter, arrogant shits they are.

Let's be honest here. Who hasn't met someone like Sheldon, who completely and utterly fails at social interaction on basically every level, and latches onto their status as a "nerd" to excuse their complete and utter refusal to act like a person instead of a shit-flinging monkey? We all know at least one person who will shoehorn pop culture references into literally every fucking sentence they say, no matter how inappropriate or awkward.

Look at gamer culture. Look at the tvtropes community. Go take a walk through your nearest Games Workshop outlet. When you step back and look, a frankly alarming number of the people who self-describe as nerds are terrifyingly regressive nuts with delusions of competence. I mean, fuck, the fact that "nerd blackface" is considered to be remotely acceptable at all to describe BBT should tip off several warning bells.

[Bells]

That's true... also, i don't doubt that there probably are people that mirror more closely the "archetypes" of the characters on the show... a fringe slice of a group, sure... but it's Sitcom, it's absurdity magnified.

Also, seriously, defining "nerd culture" and how people go about celebrating or living it... it's not an exact science. I work with people who camp overnight on the middle of the week for a D&D session and the next morning go to work to do some serious, technical, responsible non-science/nerdy jobs as much as i know people who love a lot of the stuff but watch it from afar for a plethora of reasons.

People and their communities are not binary things. And, sure, you can totally say the jokes in TBBT fall flat... just like some would say that The Office is stale and lifeless, it's more of a personal taste than any social stigma really...

It's Friends with some science and nerdy babble pretty much... harmless show that is watchable, but i wouldn't find myself quoting it (like... Bazinga) Mind you that regarding to portraits of Nerd culture, somewhere down the line there is a strong enough slice of people in that culture that think stuff like "The Tester" is a good show or even a good concept for a show...

[Loyal]

Someone explain "Bazinga" to me because I want to know but can't be bothered to look it up and sure as shit can't be bothered to actually watch the show for it. This is literally the one and only thing I want to know about the show.

[Bells]

It's just a buzz word made up to create some sort of Pop Culture FROM the show instead of the show just repeating references from others.

it's Sheldon going "Psych!"

[Kim]

What I'm gathering from this thread is that Bells is calling us HYYYYYYPPPPPSST-TURs in an attempt to defend his honor.

Don't worry, Bells.

You like Big Bang Theory.

You have no honor to defend.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

Yeah, bazinga is the Don't have a cow, man, burn, or whatchu talkin'bout, willace of this generation's tv. Or at the very least trying desperately to be.

When I was babysitting my niece and nephew a few weeks back I decided to check out what all the buzz is about with this show. Watched it without letting any previous bias alter my opinion (That is to say it was really fuckin tough not to hate the show almost immediately when Sheldon opened his festering gob and spewed forth a pile of verbal puke what is passably considered humor somehow) and I guess I can see why the everyday joe schmuck would like it, but then again joe schmucks think watching Honey BooBoo is quality entertainment so that isn't really saying much.

Which goes back to my standing that no tv at all is the best tv.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Sheldon wouldn't last as an academic- he's not going to be pulling in grants because hes too arrogant to write a grant proposal, everybody is going to hate him, he's not going to be able to collaborate with anyone, he can't take criticism- he'll be fired within 10 minutes.

[BloodyMage]

Pretty much what the title says.

It Is Clearly The Worst
Exhibit A - The Problem With The Big Bang Theory (http://butmyopinionisright.tumblr.com/post/31079561065/the-problem-with-the-big-bang-theory)

Except, no, the show regularly sets up reasons to laugh at Penny, like how she never has seen Lord of the Rings or that she's proud of being able to hogtie a pig in seconds or that she drinks excessively. And all of those guys are basically bloated versions of average geeks and nerds. Leonard is the typical geek, with glasses and lacking cool clothes that is just a little too shy, Howard is the one who over compensates for his lack of physical stature and charm with over confidence. Raj is the one with the kinda cool job (stars!), and has other interests not typically geeky, such as cooking. Most of his jokes and humour come from possibly being gay, which has nothing to do with his nerdiness. Sheldon is just the pompous ass that we all know that has to be right about everything and doesn't seem to care or even know how to act in other situations. These kinds of people do exist, the show has just over exaggerated these qualities as every sitcom since the dawn of man has done. And the thing is, they all still end up in relationships. And not pity relationships but strong relationships independent of their personal interests. Howard recently got married and got to be an astronaut. Leonard has dated Penny and other hot chicks including a doctor and a lawyer, picked up a girl at the comic book shop and Sheldon' assistant is shown to find him attractive. Most of these came after his first relationship with Penny so you could argue that it gave him a confident boost. And in the occasions when the relationships fail, it's rarely do with his geek interests. In fact, the relationship with Penny ended because she was insecure and had commitment issues. So no, I don't feel cooler than any of these guys.

Exhibit B - Ok, this is probably covered by the subtext of the link above, but I think a specific example speaks volumes:

So, there's an episode where the nerds get a box of movie memorabilia. In the box is the authentic ring prop used in the Lord of the Rings movies. The nerds basically spend the whole episode fighting over it.

In the middle of the episode, the girl comes over, sees them fighting over it, and asks what they're fighting over. The nerds have to explain to her what the ring is, and then what Lord of the Rings is.

So, the show wants me to believe that the girl, who is trying to be an actress in Hollywood, has no idea what Lord of the Rings is. You might remember Lord of the Rings as the movie series that made, conservatively, all of the money in the world. It eventually won every Oscar. Literally everyone saw it. But the only joke they could muster was her bafflement at "the Lord of the Rings thing."

To be fair, there are plenty of people who may know of The Lord of the Rings but for one reason or another never watched the films. Maybe they don't like fantasy or they watched the first film and were bored so skipped the rest. There are people like that and I know some like that and even if you did know about the film series it would still be pretty weird to walk in on a bunch of people fighting over a replica ring.

Exhibit C - Raj

No, It Is Just The Unfunniest Show on Television

Exhibit A - I like many funny shows. I've watched many episodes of BBT. I've been able to predict exact punchlines based on the lazy setups, I've been able to comprehend why some writer thought it should be seen as funny, but I've never laughed once.

That doesn't necessarily make the show unfunny. It just makes you clever.

Exhibit B - My douchebag housemate loves it.

Case closed, but extra evidence welcomed.

Who cares what your housemate likes/doesn't like?

Also, kinda have to agree with Bells in the fact that it feels like a lot of you would rather be watching a documentary about science than a sitcom with science. Which is great, there's nothing wrong with documentaries about science. But sitcoms have always used rule of funny regarding this kind of thing. Big Bang Theory isn't the first and it certainly won't be the last.

[Kim]

Except, no, the show regularly sets up reasons to laugh at Penny, like how she never has seen Lord of the Rings or that she's proud of being able to hogtie a pig in seconds or that she drinks excessively.

These all seem like really shitty reasons to laugh at someone.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Though seem like reasons to be proud of someone. I wish I had never seen Lord of the Rings and being able to hogtie a pig in seconds sounds like a useful skill. And drinking excessively is ace.

Also to use the rule of funny you have to be funny.

[BloodyMage]

These all seem like really shitty reasons to laugh at someone.

They may very well be. I was simply countering this point:

The humour in The Big Bang theory relies on the audience siding with and relating to Penny, the character coded as “normal” in comparison to the main four guys. It also relies on the audience having a sense of superiority over Leonard, Raj, Sheldon and Howard.

The show doesn't side with Penny. She's shown as flawed as the others and as I said there's no sense of superiority. All of the main cast have pretty stable relationships and when those relationships fail it's rarely because of their geekish ways.


Also to use the rule of funny you have to be funny.

I don't think it has to be funny. I think the intention of doing it has to be for comedic purposes. You can ignore science to make a bad joke. The fact that the joke is bad doesn't supersede the intention to ignore information so that you can make the joke. I mean, consider if a joke is made and someone laughs but another person doesn't. Is the joke rule of funny or not? You can't base it on whether someone laughs because maybe someone really likes bad jokes. So you kinda have to go with the intent, regardless of the outcome.

[Kim]

I'm generally of the opinion that jokes that rely on a misunderstanding of facts are pretty crappy jokes. The single exception to this being if the joke is that the facts are misunderstood, which would be a meta element Sithdarth pointed to BBT lacking.

[Lumenskir]

Which goes back to my standing that no tv at all is the best tv.
This is, quite frankly, the stupidest thing anyone has said in this thread.
Except, no, the show regularly sets up reasons to laugh at Penny
I don't think you get what the 'coded as normal' means. That post isn't saying that the show never laughs at Penny, it's saying that the reasons we're supposed to laugh at Penny are different, on a fundamental level, from the reason we're supposed to laugh at the nerds.
Also, kinda have to agree with Bells in the fact that it feels like a lot of you would rather be watching a documentary about science than a sitcom with science. Which is great, there's nothing wrong with documentaries about science. But sitcoms have always used rule of funny regarding this kind of thing. Big Bang Theory isn't the first and it certainly won't be the last.
As someone with a liberal arts degree working on a J.D., I have no fucking idea what sciencey things they get wrong, nor do I have a desire to see the hard sciences represented accurately. I just want something funny, or at the very least something not disgustingly bad.

Like, I have no idea how local government works, but Parks & Rec somehow makes me laugh anyway. I have no idea what working in tech support is like, but I can still watch The I.T. Crowd, etc.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The IT crowd is the most accurate representation of working in tech support I've ever seen.

[Bells]

Parks and Rec makes the group of a new type of Sitcom comedy that is a bit more recent, it's a different style. I've seen it, i liked it, not a fan but i also didn't see enough episodes to be a fan or not...

TBBT belongs in the group that is getting smaller and smaller each year, it's format is old. I still enjoy the show when i catch up on it. The only other sitcom i recall that uses a similar format and that people seem to enjoy that is around also is How i Met your Mother.

[Lumenskir]

TBBT belongs in the group that is getting smaller and smaller each year, it's format is old. I still enjoy the show when i catch up on it. The only other sitcom i recall that uses a similar format and that people seem to enjoy that is around also is How i Met your Mother.
You keep bringing up the format as an excuse for its quality. Why? Three-camera sitcoms aren't arbitrarily handicapped from achieving greatness. There's decades of great shows that used the same format, BBT is just shitty.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

HIMYM is also shitty.

[EVILNess]

These all seem like really shitty reasons to laugh at someone.

I was always under the impression that was the point of a of a major network prime-time sitcom.

Also to use the rule of funny you have to be funny.

I think they tend to shoot more for refuge in audacity territory to keep us from questioning instead of operating on rule of funny, because these are all horrible people (Who incidentally have been getting more horrible as the show goes on on) who could not function the way they do with any modicum of success in the real world.

Big Bang Theory is such a terrible show, but I still watch it occasionally and find a chuckle here and there. Like the Giant Jenga thing. I... would love to do that.

[Bells]

You keep bringing up the format as an excuse for its quality. Why? Three-camera sitcoms aren't arbitrarily handicapped from achieving greatness. There's decades of great shows that used the same format, BBT is just shitty.

Not an excuse, just a fact. Different styles of shows will attract different people.

Seriously, the tone here is like a freaking debate, as if there was something to defend... there is nothing to defend cause there is nothing to attack. Some people will like it, some people don't... but acting like format doesn't matter is a stupid thing to do. Why is that so hard to comprehend?!

Seriously some of the arguments here are borderline ignorant some times "you are bad cause this show is bad and you don't get it how stupid it is cause you are too stupid to get it cause you like it"... i mean, come the fuck on! Geez...

There is some -SERIOUS- over generalization coming from this thread... first was the "i watch it just to point and laugh at how bad it is" which is pretty fucking stupid to do with ANY sort of show... then we go to the classic internet Blitzkrieg of "worst thing ever made from human kind and those who like it as at the bottom of society" and now we are cycling back to the Reddit style rhetoric of people who can't separate "i don't like it" from "this is bad". It's not the same thing you know? It doesn't make value of other people either...

It's completely harmless entertainment... not a cultural defining turn point. it's -NO- surprise at all that most people here who don't seem to like it openly admit to have barely watched the show at all... fuck, leave it to the internet to judge a 4-5-6 year shows based on 40 minutes of spliced footage "'cause that's enough for me to know it's absolutely bullshit"... dear lord, relax a bit...

And, really, Lumenskir, not trying to single you out for this at all, and i apologize if it comes out like that... but really man, who is trying to "excuse" anything? Seriously, you think you are better or superior to anybody just cause you call this show bad or Honey boo Boo bad or any other show bad? Cause i don't think so, and i don't think you think like that, i don't see it as your rational... but some of the comments of this thread might very well be seen like that...

Really, fuck, leave it to NPF to overreact about a fucking sitcom geez...

The only thing i was getting at is that the old style of sitcom is a fading breed with very few horses still in play today. A new format, more snarky, acidic, sarcastic, ironic, with a different tone of writing and shooting is becoming more common and more popular lately... The Office, Parks and Rec, Community, 30 Rock, Louie and quite a few others i don't recall the name right now... those are forming a new lead pack. If your style of comedy leans towards that, you are more likely to not enjoy the older "will and grace" format. Which is a perfectly fine statement to make... it was just that and nothing more to it.

Really, there are blocks of text on why it's bad but very few of you even took time to mention better shows or shows you prefer or better alternatives in any length beyond a name... that's just a "Shitting on" bandwagon for the sake of shitting on. It really adds no value to the discussion at all...

Hell, if you talk about more serious shows, i enjoy Burn Notice a LOT, would recommend it freely... but fuck me if i'm going to pick conversation about it in a crowd that will dedicate hours to probably hating on it and over me as added bonus for the simple convenience of "being there to hate"...

Let's try to add something to the conversation, build something positive about... if you didn't watch TBBT or anything aside from a couple of episodes and have any curiosity at all, just rent a fucking DVD and catch a season... i promise, it will not tarnish your immortal pure glowing soul. You will not be putted on the Terrorist no Flight list for it... you'll simply either like it or not.

I think they tend to shoot more for refuge in audacity territory to keep us from questioning instead of operating on rule of funny, because these are all horrible people (Who incidentally have been getting more horrible as the show goes on on) who could not function the way they do with any modicum of success in the real world.

Really? How does Howard and Leonard got "more terrible"? Fuck, they basically salvaged Howard (which was really unlikable) over the last 2 seasons... i'm ok with you not being sympathetic with the characters... Raj and Sheldon and Amy can be annoying as all hell... but "Horrible people being more horrible"? C'mon now...

[BloodyMage]

I don't think you get what the 'coded as normal' means. That post isn't saying that the show never laughs at Penny, it's saying that the reasons we're supposed to laugh at Penny are different, on a fundamental level, from the reason we're supposed to laugh at the nerds.

But I relate to Penny as the 'normal' person in the group, I'm hardly going to laugh at her because I'll find the things she does comparable to what I do. So I wouldn't laugh.

Even if that were true, it don't detract from what I said about why we're supposed to laugh at the nerds. We aren't made to feel superior to them. As Bells said about Howard, he's got a lot more sympathetic including getting married and being an astronaut. Getting to see space is pretty cool, so how I'm meant to feel superior to that, I have no idea.

My point was that nothing the post said was actually true of the show. Why is not funny then? I don't know because I do find it funny.

As someone with a liberal arts degree working on a J.D., I have no fucking idea what sciencey things they get wrong, nor do I have a desire to see the hard sciences represented accurately. I just want something funny, or at the very least something not disgustingly bad.

Like, I have no idea how local government works, but Parks & Rec somehow makes me laugh anyway. I have no idea what working in tech support is like, but I can still watch The I.T. Crowd, etc.

Me neither. I have a English Literature degree and a Masters in Creative Writing. Hell if I know about any of the science they talk about. But if they get it wrong and I laugh and you don't, does it really matter that they didn't follow the facts? Someone laughed so it's a job well done for them.

I don't really watch Parks & Rec or The Office or really any of those new format shows that Bells mentioned, so I guess I like old format sitcoms. The I.T. Crowd is funny though. I tried watching both the British and American versions of The Office but I just didn't find that funny. I'm not sure why but I don't think it's because they got their facts right or wrong or because I related to the characters too much or too little. It just didn't appeal to my tastes.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You guys are horrible people

[Krylo]

Bells, man, chill your tits.

People are just taking the piss on big bang theory here. No one is over reacting, or really thinks you're terrible for enjoying it.

This is the Television version of those 'lawl CC is bad' talks we used to have back in the day. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edit: Except Smarty. Smarty is totally judging you based on whether you like poorly written sitcoms.

[Solid Snake]

Can't say I've watched it a whole lot but I've seen the odd episode here and there. The thing I find odd is that, most of the jokes require you to have an understanding of the context in which they're made. IE, you need to be a major nerd to get the reference. But the show itself is taking the absolute piss out of the nerd stereotype, which is somewhat counter-intuitive.

Like, is it aimed at nerd stereotype viewers, or people who view all nerdy people as that stereotype? Is the entire show an in-joke for nerd culture, or taking the piss out of it? I'm honestly not sure.

And this is before we get into the subject of whether the jokes are actually funny or not, but that's subjective anyway.

It's aimed at people like my parents and siblings, who are not nerds but who know a nerd quite well (in this case, me.) Through their relationship with me, they're familiar with enough of nerd culture to get some of the substance of the jokes. Because they find my nerdy hobbies and interests irritating and difficult to comprehend, they laugh at how ludicrous it's portrayed.

But really, they laugh at characters like Leonard and Howard and Sheldon because their fears regarding my lifestyle are amplified through those characters' exaggerated anti-social, dysfunctional routines. Characters like Howard and Raj could have been normal and successful, but then nerd culture got in the way and ruined them and left them laughingstocks and punching bags. While my parents find this funny, deep down inside part of the humor is that they see this trend happening to me, and they genuinely believe that they'd have an amazing son, if nerd culture hadn't interfered and completely crippled him from handling things like dating or other basic social interactions.

So it does have an audience, just not quite in the way you're thinking.

[Lumenskir]

then we go to the classic internet Blitzkrieg of "worst thing ever made from human kind and those who like it as at the bottom of society" and now we are cycling back to the Reddit style rhetoric of people who can't separate "i don't like it" from "this is bad". It's not the same thing you know? It doesn't make value of other people either...
Bells, I want you to go through this thread and find more than one instance* where anyone has commented on anything other than the quality of the show itself, or where they commented on those who watch the show. Us attacking the show does not mean we are attacking you those who watch the show.

*More than one because you'd probably think me saying my douchebag roommate likes BBT counts as an insult to BBT fans. I assure you, he is a douchebag above and beyond liking BBT.
A new format, more snarky, acidic, sarcastic, ironic, with a different tone of writing and shooting is becoming more common and more popular lately... The Office, Parks and Rec, Community, 30 Rock, Louie and quite a few others i don't recall the name right now... those are forming a new lead pack. If your style of comedy leans towards that, you are more likely to not enjoy the older "will and grace" format. Which is a perfectly fine statement to make... it was just that and nothing more to it.
I'm trying to say that you're conflating tone/content of a show with its format. The two aren't necessarily related, and quality of the show is further independent.

For instance, Seinfeld is clearly snarky/sarcastic but its format is the same as BBT, three-cameras. Raising Hope, Ben & Kate, Cougar Town, etc. are more sincere and slightly broader but their format is single camera.

Now, format and tone do influence quality in setting the parameters of what can be done, but quality is pretty much dependent on things like good writing and acting, and I'm saying that BBT fails spectacularly where quality is concerned.
Really, there are blocks of text on why it's bad but very few of you even took time to mention better shows or shows you prefer or better alternatives in any length beyond a name... that's just a "Shitting on" bandwagon for the sake of shitting on. It really adds no value to the discussion at all...
Again, find some mentions in this thread where BBT's popularity is linked to its quality.

And really, how deep a discussion should we indulge in with other shows when the primary topic is BBT? I've been using them to contrast how they do things BBT does better, but there is a valid discussion in the myriad ways that BBT fails, whether from its indulgences in homophobia, making Asperger syndrome seem like a one way ticket to villainy, etc.

Also, any discussion about how bad BBT is could lead someone to forgo watching it and watching something else that's better, meaning they'd end up enriching their lives and potentially spreading the word about that other program to others, leading to net gains in happiness. Hence, value.
Fuck, they basically salvaged Howard (which was really unlikable) over the last 2 seasons... i'm ok with you not being sympathetic with the characters... Raj and Sheldon and Amy can be annoying as all hell... but "Horrible people being more horrible"? C'mon now...
They temporarily salvaged Howard by tying him to Bernadette, but that was pretty much temporary since they then decided that the boys and girls plots had to be separated as much as possible and then shot him into space to futz around up there. Now I'd say he's basically the same as he always was.

Leonard has his fate permanently tied to his relationship with Penny, and since the only reason they're together is that Penny decided to settle all of his plots are either (1) him worrying about his relationship with Penny, re: if he's good enough for her, or (2) her feeling something that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike jealousy when the writers force a female character to express interest in him for some unexplained reason.

[Bells]

Bells, man, chill your tits.

Man, my tits are ice cold!!
...wait.

Leonard has his fate permanently tied to his relationship with Penny, and since the only reason they're together is that Penny decided to settle all of his plots are either (1) him worrying about his relationship with Penny, re: if he's good enough for her, or (2) her feeling something that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike jealousy when the writers force a female character to express interest in him for some unexplained reason.

Well that's just cause Leonard is Ross. Literally, to the bone.

They even had a "We were on a break" stance recently were for a season ending cliffhanger, for a moment, it seemed like they were going to up the ante of the show with a real tense and complex situation, but jumped out before it developed into anything with Raj and Penny.

[Solid Snake]

But before we all get too offended over how The Big Bang Theory treats nerds, it's worth noting it's even more sexist, racist and homophobic than anything else, and given that nerds aren't really oppressed minorities in the sense that homosexuals, women and racial minorities are, that's really far worse.

In fact, perhaps the most awful thing about the way the nerdy guys (minus Sheldon) are treated in TBBT is how their sense of entitlement around prospective love interests is actually portrayed as the most 'normal' thing about them. When Sheldon acts asexually around a 'hot woman' and disregards her appearance in making judgments (whether ill-informed or not) about them, he's strange and foreign and unlikable; when the other guys collectively and half-assedly try to scheme their way into women's pants, it's the one moment where TBBT flips the scripts and asks you to identify with them because now they're behaving like 'normal men'.

There's an episode where the token 'hot girl' shows up and is objectified -- she likes nerds, therefore she'll sleep with them, and here's some sexy poses and whatnot for the male audience's enjoyment -- and the nerdy boys compete against each other for her and it's one of the few times the audience is expected to laugh WITH the boys. Their game of one-uppsmanship is legitimized and Sheldon is portrayed as even worse than the other nerds for refusing to see the value or purpose in everything that's going on.

So, in short: The audience is expected to laugh at the boys' strange hobbies and nerdy interests, but then root for them when they decide to take a stroll down Misogyny Lane, because it's one of the few times where instead of behaving like Nerds, they're behaving like Real Men. Except Sheldon, because Sheldon has no sex drive and HAHA ISN'T ASEXUALITY HYSTERICAL?!?

Then there's the episodes where Raj is concerned that his Indian parents will hate him because they might think he's gay, and how Raj's shyness around women is portrayed as a sign of homosexuality, and how over-the-top offended Raj is when anyone asks if he's gay. It's all played for laughs, with the joke generally being how fucking awful it'd be if Raj were perceived as gay. To be heterosexual is a badge of honor, one of the few 'normal' things Raj can rightfully claim, and therefore to be defended at all costs.

And a lot of what's missed when TBBT is attacked on grounds of its awful treatment of nerd culture is that they don't really treat Penny any better. On occasion she'll represent the "ideal woman" a prototypical Nice Guy like Leonard would fall for in a way that strips her of independent agency. This is dangerous as it propagates the myth among Nice Guys in the nerd community that being a Nice Guy -- and believing that friendship can lead to a justifiable expectation of romantic results -- can in fact achieve the desired result. And it's just plain sexist.

I don't have a particular problem with the idea that a woman outside the nerd community can fall for a nerd. Opposites can attract, after all. It happens. But the way I tend to see it portrayed on TBBT has Penny and Leonard falling in love for all the wrong reasons. He's the friend who's given her a shoulder to cry on in the past, so why shouldn't she eventually give him the sex he desires? His hobbies are difficult for her to comprehend, but he's a Nice Guy, and Nice Guys 'deserve' a bit of loving by virtue of Being Nice. It'd be nice if TBBT instead articulated there was some form of genuine sexual chemistry or desire between the two, but instead TBBT seems to be sending a message to women that they should just settle.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Edit: Except Smarty. Smarty is totally judging you based on whether you like poorly written sitcoms.

This method has never failed me in the past.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

This is, quite frankly, the stupidest thing anyone has said in this thread.

In our forum's recent foray into toning down the douchey attacks and being more approachable in discussions what compelled you to drop this shining turd of a comment?

Humor me here 'cause i'm genuinely curious as to why my stance on cutting out the tv middle-man is so outrageously stupid that such a quip has to be made. When I can watch everything i want legitimately without having to wade through stupid commercials and watch everything on my schedule it pretty much means network or cable TV has become redundant and unnecessary and pointless, for me, to pay for.

[Lumenskir]

But I relate to Penny as the 'normal' person in the group, I'm hardly going to laugh at her because I'll find the things she does comparable to what I do. So I wouldn't laugh.
No, you're going to laugh when the seemingly normal character does something outside of what your actual normal is used to.* Then the joke is over and she's back to being the baseline. But, the nerds will always draw laughs when they talk about comic books, or when they discuss science "too much", or when they display the tiniest mote of social awkwardness. Basically, Penny has to go above and beyond your, the viewer's, view of normalcy to engender a laugh, while the nerds are laughed at whenever they differ from Penny. That's what being the baseline means.

*And, to be clear, in the jokes you listed (namely: lol she drinks beer and lol hogties pigs), the joke is either that it's outrageous a girl who looks like Penny would do those things, or (more generously(??)) that anyone who does such things are ridiculous. Not much better.
Even if that were true, it don't detract from what I said about why we're supposed to laugh at the nerds. We aren't made to feel superior to them. As Bells said about Howard, he's got a lot more sympathetic including getting married and being an astronaut. Getting to see space is pretty cool, so how I'm meant to feel superior to that, I have no idea.
Great, one character has done two things well (well, one and a half, since the other astronauts basically shit on him the entire time). It doesn't really change the fact that pretty much everything the nerds do draws laughs, just from them doing it, just because it's nerdy.
Then there's the episodes where Raj is concerned that his Indian parents will hate him because they might think he's gay, and how Raj's shyness around women is portrayed as a sign of homosexuality, and how over-the-top offended Raj is when anyone asks if he's gay. It's all played for laughs, with the joke generally being how fucking awful it'd be if Raj were perceived as gay. To be heterosexual is a badge of honor, one of the few 'normal' things Raj can rightfully claim, and therefore to be defended at all costs.
Two things: (1) Raj isn't 'shy around women', he can't talk to women unless he's "drunk" (Read As: holding something vaguely alcholicish (seriously, he chugged cough syrup for an episode and that counted)).

(2) I, already covered this:
Exhibit 3 - Raj.
Humor me here 'cause i'm genuinely curious as to why my stance on cutting out the tv middle-man is so outrageously stupid that such a quip has to be made. When I can watch everything i want legitimately without having to wade through stupid commercials and watch everything on my schedule it pretty much means network or cable TV has become redundant and unnecessary and pointless, for me, to pay for.
I was responding to the statement that "No TV = Best TV", which I assumed meant not watching any television. If you meant it as cutting the cord or only watching good TV, then I misread and I apologize.

[Solid Snake]

Two things: (1) Raj isn't 'shy around women', he can't talk to women unless he's "drunk" (Read As: holding something vaguely alcholicish (seriously, he chugged cough syrup for an episode and that counted)).


So he is 'shy' (antisocial) around women, but the reasoning given for said shyness is even worse than simply being shy because it perpetuates the myth that Alcohol Solves All Problems.

[synkr0nized]

Two things: (1) Raj isn't 'shy around women', he can't talk to women unless he's "drunk" (Read As: holding something vaguely alcholicish (seriously, he chugged cough syrup for an episode and that counted)).

(2) I, already covered this:


I was responding to the statement that "No TV = Best TV", which I assumed meant not watching any television. If you meant it as cutting the cord or only watching good TV, then I misread and I apologize.


To the Raj bit:
Actually, quite often men who are shy around women find their courage in alcohol or get loosened up enough that way to realize it's not difficult at all. While it's certainly not the only way to for a person to cope with such a situation, it is arguably quite common. I don't see why you would claim that's not the same thing, unless you are trying to emphasize that the folks behind the show mean to whittle it down to only being a gag to make Raj drink. If that's the case, though, that's not really where Snake's coming from with that argument and not wholly relevant.

Your second point isn't really an argument or anything, not when you first posted it and not again here.


About the TV comment:
Even if it was "no TV = the best TV" meaning not watching any of it, how is that "the stupidest thing ever"? I am sure there are plenty of people who don't play video games; are they also stupid? What about, say, folks who don't watch or follow sports? Or who don't read books or comics or <insert other format>? No matter if you misinterpreted or not, I'm inclined to agree with Skweeb that it was an awful comment to post regardless, despite the intended hyperbole I am sure was behind it.


And here I thought Bells was the only one overreacting in this thread.

[Bells]

Snake, two things...

First, your "in short" is actually longer than the thing you wrote before...

Secondly, although it doesn't disqualifies your personal assessment of the situation presented on the show, you just got the joke there completely ass backwards.

I was going into a bit more detail on why exactly i think you are missing the point here... but seeing your posts, i actually do have to ask this: Exactly how much of this show do you know or have actually seen?

[Lumenskir]

Actually, quite often men who are shy around women find their courage in alcohol or get loosened up enough that way to realize it's not difficult at all. While it's certainly not the only way to for a person to cope with such a situation, it is arguably quite common. I don't see why you would claim that's not the same thing, unless you are trying to emphasize that the folks behind the show mean to whittle it down to only being a gag to make Raj drink. If that's the case, though, that's not really where Snake's coming from with that argument and not wholly relevant.
Sorry, thought I had said he wasn't just shy around women, he was so shy he actually had one of his only two characteristics devoted to it.
Even if it was "no TV = the best TV" meaning not watching any of it, how is that "the stupidest thing ever"? I am sure there are plenty of people who don't play video games; are they also stupid? What about, say, folks who don't watch or follow sports? Or who don't read books or comics or <insert other format>? No matter if you misinterpreted or not, I'm inclined to agree with Skweeb that it was an awful comment to post regardless, despite the intended hyperbole I am sure was behind it.
If you don't play video games, or follow sports, or read books, that is perfectly fine. If you then say that not playing video games is the only reasonable action and then point to one bad video game, then that is pretty stupid.

We are living in a golden age of television, and all it takes is some time to experience some really great art. If you don't want to experience that, that's fine. If you want to denigrate the entire medium because of a few bad examples, that's stupid.

[Solid Snake]

Snake, two things...

First, your "in short" is actually longer than the thing you wrote before...

Secondly, although it doesn't disqualifies your personal assessment of the situation presented on the show, you just got the joke there completely ass backwards.

I was going into a bit more detail on why exactly i think you are missing the point here... but seeing your posts, i actually do have to ask this: Exactly how much of this show do you know or have actually seen?

Haha aren't you just so hysterical with your snide and completely unnecessary commentary on the possible misuse of "in short," I guess it'd be far too much to ask you to respond to the actual substantive arguments I was making instead.

I've probably watched about a dozen episodes in full and snippets of another ten or episodes while my parents and/or siblings controlled the television.
I don't think I could stand to watch any more than that.

EDIT: Oh, I see. Apparently you mistook the "in short" as encompassing the entirety of the remainder of my argument. Actually, the "in short" was just summarizing the boys' misogyny in that one paragraph. Then I moved on to the completely different subjects of Raj's homophobia and Penny as an 'ideal' recipient of Nice Guy affection.

[pochercoaster]

I watched this show for 3 minutes once and it seemed pretty shit so I never watched it again.

[synkr0nized]

Hey, remember that time when we kind of didn't like it when folks got on Seil for making Seil posts? OK, maybe you don't, but I know at least Fifth and I got irritated by that.

Let's just stop going down that path with Snake. He makes points and arguments, and if your (this is everyone, not Bells, as we've all seen this enough; Hell, I may even have been guilty of it myself) only response is going to be "tl;dr" or similar, you probably don't need to respond.

[Steel Shadow]

This thread: Worst thread on the forums, or just a bunch of people complaining about shows they don't watch?

[Solid Snake]

Hey, remember that time when we kind of didn't like it when folks got on Seil for making Seil posts? OK, maybe you don't, but I know at least Fifth and I got irritated by that.

Let's just stop going down that path with Snake. He makes points and arguments, and if your (this is everyone, not Bells, as we've all seen this enough; Hell, I may even have been guilty of it myself) only response is going to be "tl;dr" or similar, you probably don't need to respond.

Personally I just find it funny that my reputation's beginning to precede me, because I haven't even typed the longest Walls of Text in this thread.

[Bells]

Calm down big fella... i did answer it earlier. You simply got it wrong. Plot point, character traits, character descriptions, episode structure.... you show a minimal underlining understanding of the show you are thoroughly commenting stuff on, that isn't there or is simply completely wrong.

I'm not even saying if i agree with you or not, i'm saying you are literally talking about it like someone who saw those "commercial snipts promoting new seasons" a couple of times in a year and made a profound analyses of the show in dept out of just that...

If you really want to form an opinion of this show, do as i suggested, rent a season, give it a look... right now you are all over the place and really really wrong. I promise you, your skin will not burn, your eyes will not bleed, your credit rating will not go down... but right now, be right or wrong, you really have no idea what you're talking about...

[Kim]

No, but they'll be out the money it cost to rent and the time it took to watch when there are infinitely better shows out there to watch.

[Bells]

that's also an option, if another show entices you... hey, go for it! But if you wanna comment about a show, at least know what you're saying c'mon...

[Solid Snake]

Calm down big fella... i did answer it earlier. You simply got it wrong. Plot point, character traits, character descriptions, episode structure.... you show a minimal underlining understanding of the show you are thoroughly commenting stuff on, that isn't there or is simply completely wrong.

I'm not even saying if i agree with you or not, i'm saying you are literally talking about it like someone who saw those "commercial snipts promoting new seasons" a couple of times in a year and made a profound analyses of the show in dept out of just that...

If you really want to form an opinion of this show, do as i suggested, rent a season, give it a look... right now you are all over the place and really really wrong. I promise you, your skin will not burn, your eyes will not bleed, your credit rating will not go down... but right now, be right or wrong, you really have no idea what you're talking about...

Bells, this is just hella awful arguing. You're not actually substantively responding to the merits of my claims, you're just saying "You're wrong and you don't know about what you're talking about" without actually PROVING ME WRONG with examples and evidence, and that's the most important step.

I've watched more than twelve episodes in their entirety.
Not to mention scenes from at least a dozen more, but let's assume that watching a scene or two in an episode doesn't suffice because I might take something out of context.
If it takes more than twelve episodes to achieve more than a "minimalistic" understanding of a television show, then it's a really bad television show.

[synkr0nized]

This thread: Worst thread on the forums, or just a bunch of people complaining about shows they don't watch?

I'm pretty sure disliking a television show isn't half as bad as sexism, homophobia, or misogyny, so clearly not our worst thread.

[Steel Shadow]

I'm pretty sure disliking a television show isn't half as bad as sexism, homophobia, or misogyny, so clearly not our worst thread.

I dunno man, I skimmed the first five posts of this one and it seemed really awful. It could be up there.

Ok, I might be taking the joke to far there. So, to at least add something slightly on topic, I've watched Big Bang Theory. It occasionally makes me laugh. If I'm stuck in front of a TV for half an hour and it's on, I might switch over to watch it. I wouldn't nominate it for any awards or anything, but as a way to waste a little time? I've got no problems with it.

... I have problems with my family comparing me to Sheldon all the time, but that's really another matter all together...

Honestly? It's not the worst show out there. And it's kinda funny. If you don't like it, that's fair. World would be a weird place if taste was universal. But I do like it, so if y'all could drop the 'everyone who likes this crap is a moron' angle that feels like it's circling around, that'd be peaches. I'm not saying anyone's saying that, it just feels implied.

Edit: Obviously Smarty is exempt from the above.

[Solid Snake]

I dunno man, I skimmed the first five posts of this one and it seemed really awful. It could be up there.

Ok, I might be taking the joke to far there. So, to at least add something slightly on topic, I've watched Big Bang Theory. It occasionally makes me laugh. If I'm stuck in front of a TV for half an hour and it's on, I might switch over to watch it. I wouldn't nominate it for any awards or anything, but as a way to waste a little time? I've got no problems with it.

... I have problems with my family comparing me to Sheldon all the time, but that's really another matter all together...

Persona 4: Golden is one of my top ten videogames of all time, but that doesn't mean I'm incapable of criticizing it for its atrocious bigotry and misogyny.
I've laughed at a joke in Big Bang too. Probably more than one of them, in fact. Doesn't mean I can't criticize the show for advancing some fucking disgusting messages.

[Steel Shadow]

Persona 4: Golden is one of my top ten videogames of all time, but that doesn't mean I'm incapable of criticizing it for its atrocious bigotry and misogyny.
I've laughed at a joke in Big Bang too. Probably more than one of them, in fact. Doesn't mean I can't criticize the show for advancing some fucking disgusting messages.

Yes, that is entirely your right, and I support your use of it! Of course you should point these things out. It's healthy debate, and I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with you on at least the basics of "This is terrible behaviour and shouldn't be done".

You're not the only one in this thread though, and the sentiments that are making me feel a little defensive are still out there.

Lurking...

[Bells]

Bells, this is just hella awful arguing. You're not actually substantively responding to the merits of my claims, you're just saying "You're wrong and you don't know about what you're talking about" without actually PROVING ME WRONG with examples and evidence, and that's the most important step.

I've watched more than twelve episodes in their entirety.
Not to mention scenes from at least a dozen more, but let's assume that watching a scene or two in an episode doesn't suffice because I might take something out of context.
If it takes more than twelve episodes to achieve more than a "minimalistic" understanding of a television show, then it's a really bad television show.

Fair enough... allow me to just take this example

So he is 'shy' (antisocial) around women, but the reasoning given for said shyness is even worse than simply being shy because it perpetuates the myth that Alcohol Solves All Problems.

This is simply wrong about the show.

Raj is indeed Shy, and he does indeed uses Alcohol to "loosen up" . In typical Sitcom fashion, everything is magnified.

Thing is, in Canon, Raj suffers from Selective Mutism, a very real psychiatric disorder connected to Anxiety disorder, which his character also has and is related to his shyness.

Played for comedic effect, he finds out that being lightly drunk reduces his anxiety and shyness, allowing him to temporally overcome his condition. The show also develops that his condition was bred in a highly controlled Indian High Social Cast environment where both his parents where constantly trying to control and guide his love life (one of the reasons he came to the USA).

Then, when you point out that this is the show forcing that "Alcohol fixes all problems" only comes back as wrong because again and again the show does the exact opposite of that... Raj, having found a Chemical solution to his social disorder, never really confronts it. And even though, he tries, the alcohol keeps making him fail, preventing him from succeeding in social and emotional affairs alike.

The show never pounces on his shyness, it never makes light or pokes fun of his disorder. he is never anti-social (he is actually the most social of the group), but he has a social disorder played for comedic effect because this is a sitcom about dysfunctional "fish out of water" people ...like pretty much all sitcoms ever. Leonard being the closest thing to the "straight man" role to serve as mirror to the others.

All of this is shown before the end of the first 3 seasons and there have been full episodes dedicated to that. And you didn't catch any of that...

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm going to steer this thread into a more productive angle- we are going to determine the worst tv show of all time through a cunning bracket system. Please vote for the worst show in the following 3 brackets:
Friends vs the Big Bang Theory
Will and Grace vs The Love Boat
2 Broke Girls vs Rob
Then suggest a show for the mystery 4th fan bracket.

[Bells]

The sarah silverman program vs does'nt matter cause the Sarah Silverman program sucked ass?

[pochercoaster]

I can't vote because I haven't watched any of those shows but don't forget Everybody Loves Raymond.

[Solid Snake]

But I think there's an even bigger picture element that's being missed in this whole discussion, which is that criticism of a show (or a videogame, or a movie) shouldn't be equivocated with a personal attack on individuals who enjoy that product.

Too often we've had discussions regarding underlying issues with narratives -- particularly social justice issues in said storylines -- become completely derailed because people mistake criticism of the product as criticism on themselves for liking the product.

I like many stories that are filled with misogynistic, racist and homophobic bullshit. I do! That's largely because we live in a culture that's so inundated with privilege and oppression that misogynistic, racist and homophobic content is considered 'normal.' So even great stories are infected with bullshit. Lots and lots of bullshit that needs to be called out as bullshit.

Personally, I won't hide the fact the fact that I dislike Big Bang Theory. I think it's a shit show. But I didn't come here to try to trumpet a message that everyone who liked the show was a misogynist; I came here to point out issues with the show's attitude towards women, homosexuals, and nerds. Those issues would be problematic even if Big Bang Theory was a phenomenal show with great dialogue and characters that just happened to have a few social justice issues.

At no point here did I attempt to argue that everyone who liked Sheldon or Leonard or Penny were awful, terrible, disgusting worms of human beings for liking the show. Again: An important distinction has to be made there. It's a distinction we didn't make in the Boycott Atlus thread and it's a distinction we're still not making now.

And, to Bells: I thought you were responding to other arguments I was making about misogyny and homophobia in the story, but instead you're harping on Raj's disorder, which I considered rather ancillary to my argument.

The point I was making was about others' perceptions of Raj as being 'shy' drove an underlying homophobic message. Key words: Others' perceptions. It isn't about whatever disorder Raj actually has, not really anyway. It's about how society's perception of Raj as shy leads others to believe he might be homosexual, and how Raj responds to those claims about his sexuality.

[Lumenskir]

The show never pounces on his shyness, it never makes light or pokes fun of his disorder.
Except pretty much any time Penny is in the same room as Raj, they do the same joke where Raj leans in to Howard to have him tell Howard to tell Penny something, and the audience laughs. When Raj took that pill that let him talk to women for an episode, the laughter came when the pill started to fall apart and he was back to being mute again.

They could have easily explained this all away with a second of dialog, but the show has chosen, for all of these seasons, that when they want to laugh at Raj being close to a woman they don't put a beer in his hand, and when they want to have a normal scene they give him a beer.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It can't be everybody loves raymond because everyone loves him.

[Nique]

Eh he was ok.

[Bells]

wait, what do you mean with explain all this away?

Like, removing his issues or explaining they exist?

Cause they do explain that it's there...


It can't be everybody loves raymond because everyone loves him.

If that's the case, then you would have to give The Old Adventures of New Christine a pass because it has Undercover Agent Coulson in it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Eh he was ok.

Are you saying the title is a lie? Are you allowed to do that?

[Lumenskir]

wait, what do you mean with explain all this away?

Like, removing his issues or explaining they exist?

Cause they do explain that it's there...
Explain away, as in, remove it completely. It's the worst character quirk on television, it adds nothing, it's kept him as the most stagnate character, and the fact that they have to either force a beer into his hand or explain why something he's imbibing is alcoholic in order for him to act human and contribute to a scene shows that they know it's pointless. If it wasn't they'd just always have him be mute and only be drunk when it made sense, but they've chosen to keep the quirk regardless of how little it makes sense.

[Bells]

Cause removing it would be terrible. No no, they totally wrote themselves into a corner with that character... i understand that they thought having a "ultra shy" guy be best friends with a "way over his head" casanova would be funny, but that was probably thought for a show that wasn't expecting to survive beyond 3-4 seasons... but the show got big, and it's going for 7 seasons now. Simply "dissipate into thin air" a main trait of a character that has a real Psychiatric disorder would be a shotgun blast to the foot...

It really does serve no purpose, but really, "Deus Ex Machina" to solve it would not fly well with the people that actually like the show... i think they tried some of that with those experimental pills, probably didn't flew well with audiences so they just faded that out...

[Solid Snake]

I don't see anything written about Selective Mutism that suggests that alcohol has ever been used as a cure for it.

Also: Selective mutism usually co-exists with shyness or social anxiety.
So...I don't see how I was wrong in labeling Raj as shy.

[Lumenskir]

Cause removing it would be terrible.
What I'm trying to say is that whether it exists or not in a given episode (hell, a given scene) is entirely arbitrary, the result of an on/off switch the writers can choose to flip or not. It's not a true part of his character (otherwise the writers would stick to consistent rules that make sense), it's just another quick joke they can make on Raj, i.e., if they want the audience to laugh at him they'll put him in a scene with a woman without a beer. If they want him to act normal they'll stick a single beer in his hand and then continue on as normal.

I mean, really, what would be the difference between Raj walking in and saying "I went to a hypnotherapist, I can talk to girls now!" vs. him always having a beer in his hand?

[Solid Snake]

I don't see anything written about Selective Mutism that suggests that alcohol has ever been used as a cure for it.

This was poor wording on my part.
What I mean is, there's nothing about Selective Mutism that suggests that, upon a person with Selective Mutism drinking alcohol, the Mutism will be negated or it will (even temporarily) fade away.
So, I do think it is reasonable for me to have referred to Raj's condition in the show as promoting a message that Alcohol Cures All Problems when alcohol is used for exactly that purpose, and alcohol has no similar effect for actual individuals with Selective Mutism in real life. Alcohol is presented as a cure-all when it really isn't.

The fact that Raj suffers occasional consequences for his reliance upon alcohol to speak to women does not refute the fact that alcohol is necessary for him to speak in the first place, when it shouldn't be. That's simply not how Selective Mutism appears to work, at least based on what I'm reading.

[Bells]

I mean, really, what would be the difference between Raj walking in and saying "I went to a hypnotherapist, I can talk to girls now!" vs. him always having a beer in his hand?

Well you just stumbled on a point many fans of the show are arguing, myself included... they managed to fix Howard's storyline a bit with Marriage, they are moving on with Sheldon, Leonard is only getting fixed in the end of the show obviously... i don't recall Raj ever mentioned going to a therapist, only the experimental drug test... i don't know how the real treatment for his condition is, but i would imagine if it was done poorly or too "fantastical" it could be considered in poor taste. And then, like you said it... take that away from the character and what does he have?

The fact that Raj suffers occasional consequences for his reliance upon alcohol to speak to women does not refute the fact that alcohol is necessary for him to speak in the first place, when it shouldn't be. That's simply not how Selective Mutism appears to work, at least based on what I'm reading.

it's a Sitcom not a documentary. It's exagerated to comedic effect. Selective Mutism is linked to Anxiety and Shyness... light Drunkness is known to ease up on those 2 things a bit, they just wrote that in for comedic effect.

Mind you that in the show it's very clear that his issue is psychological, since eating a -rum cake- was enough to allow him to speak with a FBI agent once. And the effects are nearly immediate.

[Lumenskir]

And then, like you said it... take that away from the character and what does he have?
I dunno, finally have him come out and start dating Stuart like they hinted at in the beginning of this season and see where he goes from there....Eer, since I've hated what they've done with all of the major relationships, and their past stance on homosexuality, maybe not that. But hell, do almost anything else, since sticking with the detrimental busted ass status quo that's easily fixable just because it's the status quo is one of the contributors to labeling it as the Worst Thing on TV.

[Bells]

To be totally honest i really don't like how they tease that Raj and Amy are "probably-maybe" bi-curious (or in Amy's case Bisexual) now THAT is a forced joke that pokes at nothing.

Specially since it correlates the fact the least sexually active characters suddenly have feelings for the opposite sex... that does rub me badly.

[Solid Snake]

So, just to clarify.

You accused me of not knowing what the hell I was talking about:

Calm down big fella... i did answer it earlier. You simply got it wrong. Plot point, character traits, character descriptions, episode structure.... you show a minimal underlining understanding of the show you are thoroughly commenting stuff on, that isn't there or is simply completely wrong.

I'm not even saying if i agree with you or not, i'm saying you are literally talking about it like someone who saw those "commercial snipts promoting new seasons" a couple of times in a year and made a profound analyses of the show in dept out of just that...

If you really want to form an opinion of this show, do as i suggested, rent a season, give it a look... right now you are all over the place and really really wrong. I promise you, your skin will not burn, your eyes will not bleed, your credit rating will not go down... but right now, be right or wrong, you really have no idea what you're talking about...

…Which, by the way, is an objectively wrong characterization of my degree of knowledge of The Big Bang Theory.

I've probably watched about a dozen episodes in full and snippets of another ten or episodes while my parents and/or siblings controlled the television.

you are literally talking about it like someone who saw those "commercial snipts promoting new seasons" a couple of times in a year and made a profound analyses of the show in dept out of just that...
The misrepresentation of mine that you seized upon was that I typed this sentence:

So he is 'shy' (antisocial) around women, but the reasoning given for said shyness is even worse than simply being shy because it perpetuates the myth that Alcohol Solves All Problems.

Which you disputed because, in your words:

The show never pounces on his shyness, it never makes light or pokes fun of his disorder. he is never anti-social (he is actually the most social of the group), but he has a social disorder played for comedic effect because this is a sitcom about dysfunctional "fish out of water" people ...like pretty much all sitcoms ever. Leonard being the closest thing to the "straight man" role to serve as mirror to the others.

You likewise point out that the show isn’t advocating that “Alcohol Solves All Problems” because there are occasionally negative repercussions to Raj’s reliance on alcohol. That’s okay, though I directly responded to that argument here:

I do think it is reasonable for me to have referred to Raj's condition in the show as promoting a message that Alcohol Cures All Problems when alcohol is used for exactly that purpose, and alcohol has no similar effect for actual individuals with Selective Mutism in real life. Alcohol is presented as a cure-all when it really isn't.

The fact that Raj suffers occasional consequences for his reliance upon alcohol to speak to women does not refute the fact that alcohol is necessary for him to speak in the first place, when it shouldn't be.
You didn’t really respond to that yet.

Only, the bottom line is that you’re really assuming that I was attempting to make an argument I wasn’t making at all:

Then there's the episodes where Raj is concerned that his Indian parents will hate him because they might think he's gay, and how Raj's shyness around women is portrayed as a sign of homosexuality, and how over-the-top offended Raj is when anyone asks if he's gay. It's all played for laughs, with the joke generally being how fucking awful it'd be if Raj were perceived as gay.To be heterosexual is a badge of honor, one of the few 'normal' things Raj can rightfully claim, and therefore to be defended at all costs.

You’ve conceded that Raj is in fact ‘shy.’ You’ve either agreed outright or chosen to simply ignore the related commentary I’ve made regarding misogyny and homophobia in other scenes . Yet you still think it’s appropriate to have essentially trolled – yes, trolled me not once but twice previously when responding to my comments. First you gave a glib TL:DR quip (ironic since you’ve actually typed walls just as long as mine in this thread), then instead of engaging me on the merits on my arguments you said, and I quote:

... but right now, be right or wrong, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

And now you’re debating around in circles regarding Raj’s Selective Mutism. When it’s beneficial for you to rely on the diagnosis of a real disorder, you do so. When it’s beneficial for you to rely on “comedic exaggeration” as justification for RAJ’S MUTISM NOT ACTUALLY RESEMBLING THE ACTUAL DISORDER you do so and brazenly contradict yourself in the process. You can’t rely upon the defense that Raj’s disorder is ‘real’ as a justification of the sitcom’s approach to Raj, then claim that the exaggerations are for comedic effect WHEN YOU SAID:

The show never pounces on his shyness, it never makes light or pokes fun of his disorder.

…Do you see the inherent contradiction here? In your words the show never “pokes fun at his disorder,” but we’ve just established HIS DISORDER IS DELIBERATELY EXAGGERATED FOR COMEDIC EFFECT. If the disorder is deliberately exaggerated for comedic effect, then yes, that decision was deliberately made to poke fun at an imaginary version of Selective Mutism which alcohol mysteriously temporarily alleviates so that the audience can laugh when Raj gets drunk to solve his problems, and laugh at Raj when he's sober and incapable of speaking.

Okay, I’m calling it like I see it.

Bells: You are trolling. You are trolling in this topic for the mere sake of being antagonistic. You are creating conflict for the mere sake of enjoying the subsequent conflicts. You’re more interested in antagonizing others than you are in actually advancing substantive arguments in defense of Big Bang Theory. Because there isn’t any substance whatsoever here.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I rest my case.

[Nique]

Who cares what your housemate likes/doesn't like?


xECUrlnXCqk

Are you saying the title is a lie? Are you allowed to do that?

Also; How can the pink panther strike again when it isn't even in the movie?!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

So, just to clarify.

You accused me of not knowing what the hell I was talking about:



…Which, by the way, is an objectively wrong characterization of my degree of knowledge of The Big Bang Theory.




The misrepresentation of mine that you seized upon was that I typed this sentence:



Which you disputed because, in your words:



You likewise point out that the show isn’t advocating that “Alcohol Solves All Problems” because there are occasionally negative repercussions to Raj’s reliance on alcohol. That’s okay, though I directly responded to that argument here:


You didn’t really respond to that yet.

Only, the bottom line is that you’re really assuming that I was attempting to make an argument I wasn’t making at all:



You’ve conceded that Raj is in fact ‘shy.’ You’ve either agreed outright or chosen to simply ignore the related commentary I’ve made regarding misogyny and homophobia in other scenes . Yet you still think it’s appropriate to have essentially trolled – yes, trolled me not once but twice previously when responding to my comments. First you gave a glib TL:DR quip (ironic since you’ve actually typed walls just as long as mine in this thread), then instead of engaging me on the merits on my arguments you said, and I quote:



And now you’re debating around in circles regarding Raj’s Selective Mutism. When it’s beneficial for you to rely on the diagnosis of a real disorder, you do so. When it’s beneficial for you to rely on “comedic exaggeration” as justification for RAJ’S MUTISM NOT ACTUALLY RESEMBLING THE ACTUAL DISORDER you do so and brazenly contradict yourself in the process. You can’t rely upon the defense that Raj’s disorder is ‘real’ as a justification of the sitcom’s approach to Raj, then claim that the exaggerations are for comedic effect WHEN YOU SAID:



…Do you see the inherent contradiction here? In your words the show never “pokes fun at his disorder,” but we’ve just established HIS DISORDER IS DELIBERATELY EXAGGERATED FOR COMEDIC EFFECT. If the disorder is deliberately exaggerated for comedic effect, then yes, that decision was deliberately made to poke fun at an imaginary version of Selective Mutism which alcohol mysteriously temporarily alleviates so that the audience can laugh when Raj gets drunk to solve his problems, and laugh at Raj when he's sober and incapable of speaking.

Okay, I’m calling it like I see it.

Bells: You are trolling. You are trolling in this topic for the mere sake of being antagonistic. You are creating conflict for the mere sake of enjoying the subsequent conflicts. You’re more interested in antagonizing others than you are in actually advancing substantive arguments in defense of Big Bang Theory. Because there isn’t any substance whatsoever here.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I rest my case.

Objection! I got better marks in law school than you!





Also; How can the pink panther strike again when it isn't even in the movie?!

It's mysterious curse does.

[BloodyMage]

No, you're going to laugh when the seemingly normal character does something outside of what your actual normal is used to.* Then the joke is over and she's back to being the baseline. But, the nerds will always draw laughs when they talk about comic books, or when they discuss science "too much", or when they display the tiniest mote of social awkwardness. Basically, Penny has to go above and beyond your, the viewer's, view of normalcy to engender a laugh, while the nerds are laughed at whenever they differ from Penny. That's what being the baseline means.

Not really. Penny's excessive alcoholism has been a consistent part of her characterisation since her previous break from Leonard. And most of the nerdy humour seems to come from when the characters not knowing what to do and asking other nerds what to do and getting very bad advice. Which is what you'd expect when you ask other socially awkward people how to handle awkward situations. And they might have conversations where they talk about comics or films and apply real life situations to that scenario (for instance, how does Superman wash sweat out of his suit?). That seems like a great length to go for a laugh considering you seem to think that the nerds draw laughs at the slightest geeky thing they do.

*And, to be clear, in the jokes you listed (namely: lol she drinks beer and lol hogties pigs), the joke is either that it's outrageous a girl who looks like Penny would do those things, or (more generously(??)) that anyone who does such things are ridiculous. Not much better.

Why is it ridiculous that a girl like Penny would do those things? She looks more athleticv than the boys and lots of pretty girls binge drink.

Great, one character has done two things well (well, one and a half, since the other astronauts basically shit on him the entire time).

Yes, but not because he's a nerd. It's because he eats fruit loops and that seems more like a hazing thing.

Two things: (1) Raj isn't 'shy around women', he can't talk to women unless he's "drunk" (Read As: holding something vaguely alcholicish (seriously, he chugged cough syrup for an episode and that counted)).

You say this but you're also aware that Raj has tried other methods such as drugs. And in another episode when he's teaching Sheldon meditation, he states it helped him stay in the same room as a girl. As someone said, it's a kind of selective muteism that's basically being exaggerated for humour.

and the fact that they have to either force a beer into his hand or explain why something he's imbibing is alcoholic in order for him to act human and contribute to a scene shows that they know it's pointless.

Forcing it into his hand basically involves him holding a beer in his hand. They're usually eating anyway, so how is this really forced? But just to say alcohol does not allow him to act human. He becomes a jerk. The joke is that he can either not talk or be a jerk. Especially when they put him in situations where he has to talk to a woman, like a job interview or sexual harassment meeting. Yes, again, it's an exaggeration, but so are most characterisations in sitcoms.


The point I was making was about others' perceptions of Raj as being 'shy' drove an underlying homophobic message. Key words: Others' perceptions. It isn't about whatever disorder Raj actually has, not really anyway. It's about how society's perception of Raj as shy leads others to believe he might be homosexual, and how Raj responds to those claims about his sexuality.

But Raj isn't a homosexual. In fact he says himself that he's probably metrosexual (maybe that isn't one of the 12 episodes that you've seen.) So he would probably get annoyed if people kept thinking that he was just because he likes some unmanly activities. That would be frustrating and if this was a drama he's be deeply troubled. But it's a sitcom so we laugh at his frustration.

Except pretty much any time Penny is in the same room as Raj, they do the same joke where Raj leans in to Howard to have him tell Howard to tell Penny something, and the audience laughs. When Raj took that pill that let him talk to women for an episode, the laughter came when the pill started to fall apart and he was back to being mute again.

Yes but they usually laugh at what Howard says in response because Raj has said something that Howard can't ask or say in company. You've missed the actual joke there. And it has been used to further a scene, such as when Howard blamed Raj for something knowing he couldn't defend himself and when Raj whispered in his ear he totally lied. I found that funny.

And the laughter came when the side effects caused involuntary movements of his hand. It was still being tested anyway, for which Raj signed up for, so it was a solution that could be persistent anyway.


The fact that Raj suffers occasional consequences for his reliance upon alcohol to speak to women does not refute the fact that alcohol is necessary for him to speak in the first place, when it shouldn't be. That's simply not how Selective Mutism appears to work, at least based on what I'm reading.

Does it really matter? This goes back to the rule of funny that was mentioned earlier in regards to ignoring science for the sake of a joke. Do they really need to be so strict in their comedy that they can't have alcohol inhibit his securities long enough for him to over come his mutism. This is not a documentary or a drama, it's a sitcom. If it's funnier to ignore the piece of information, then ignore it.

[Solid Snake]

But Raj isn't a homosexual. In fact he says himself that he's probably metrosexual (maybe that isn't one of the 12 episodes that you've seen.) So he would probably get annoyed if people kept thinking that he was just because he likes some unmanly activities. That would be frustrating and if this was a drama he's be deeply troubled. But it's a sitcom so we laugh at his frustration.

"That would be frustrating and if this was a drama he'd be deeply troubled."
But that's my entire point!!!

It's wrong plain and simple that our society views homosexuality as so abhorrent that for others to believe we may be homosexual is 'deeply troubling.'

Look, I know Raj isn't homosexual. It really shouldn't matter, but that's not the point of my argument. It's how Raj and others in his social network view the 'accusation' of homosexuality that's so offensive from a social justice perspective.

Ideally we'd live in a society where we didn't give a shit if someone misidentified our sexuality. Period. End of story. What this show does is it turns heterosexuality into a badge of 'normalcy' and 'honor' that Raj is only too desperate to cling to.


Does it really matter? This goes back to the rule of funny that was mentioned earlier in regards to ignoring science for the sake of a joke. Do they really need to be so strict in their comedy that they can't have alcohol inhibit his securities long enough for him to over come his mutism. This is not a documentary or a drama, it's a sitcom. If it's funnier to ignore the piece of information, then ignore it.

First: It's ableist. It's the same kind of shit that upsets so many people when it comes to Sheldon's potential representation of individuals with Asperger's. Exaggerating a disorder into the punching bag for a series of jokes -- so that the misconstrued disability itself is the butt of the joke -- is something that should be avoided. When this happens, Raj is stripped of humanity and simply becomes that guy whose Selective Mutism makes him unable to function. Hell, the fact that it happens solely, exclusively and consistently whenever a woman is simply present -- and the fact that alcohol always temporarily 'cures' the condition -- these are misrepresentations of what Selective Mutism actually is, done so that we can laugh at the idea that someone would have such an affliction.

Second: Bells can't simultaneously claim the 'real disorder' as a defense of Raj's representation of a 'dysfunctional' individual and suggest that "the show never pounces on his shyness...never makes light or pokes fun" at said serious disorder, then claim comedic license for the show's producers to exaggerate that disorder because doing so would be 'funny'. His positions are contradictory.

[rpgdemon]

Played for comedic effect, he finds out that being lightly drunk reduces his anxiety and shyness, allowing him to temporally overcome his condition. The show also develops that his condition was bred in a highly controlled Indian High Social Cast environment where both his parents where constantly trying to control and guide his love life (one of the reasons he came to the USA).

Then, when you point out that this is the show forcing that "Alcohol fixes all problems" only comes back as wrong because again and again the show does the exact opposite of that... Raj, having found a Chemical solution to his social disorder, never really confronts it. And even though, he tries, the alcohol keeps making him fail, preventing him from succeeding in social and emotional affairs alike.

Except for the episode where he gets drunk, and that lets him "score" the hottie at some party, and he has sex with her, then wakes up and freaks out HILARIOUSLY over how he's in bed with a woman who was super attracted to him because of how he acted like a douche when he was drunk.

There are many problems with this.

I don't see anything written about Selective Mutism that suggests that alcohol has ever been used as a cure for it.

Few people suggest alcoholism as a cure for anything. My great grandfather (Whom I never knew, died before I was born, so don't see it as some sob story) suffered from anxiety, and went to alcoholism to self-treat himself. It's actually one of THE first signs of alcoholism, when people use it as a self treatment for anxiety or some problem they have.

So, we're also expected to make fun of Raj for being a high functioning alcoholic.

[McTahr]

Snake, please keep this in mind for future posts in this thread, or perhaps step out for a bit.

Backseat Moderating: even if you mean well, please avoid making calls as to what is or isn't a rules offense. That's the moderators' job. We don't particularly want people here to accuse each other of spamming or flaming or trolling, no matter - and this is important - whether we'd agree. If you're absolutely sure something is against the rules, report that post, and we'll take a look at it (remember that this isn't a guarantee we'll actually do anything about it, since we might still disagree with your assessment). This especially applies to the "I started the thread, therefore it is mine" mentality. Threads on this forum belong to the community, not the person who begins the discussion.

[Lumenskir]

That seems like a great length to go for a laugh considering you seem to think that the nerds draw laughs at the slightest geeky thing they do.
I want to watch the same show you do, where the characters are primarily mining the depths of pop culture, nerdy and otherwise, in order to make jokes, rather than primarily relying on surface pop culture references that code as nerdy (regardless of how popular they are in actual culture). Or rather, I want that show to just finally come back on the air, since it's called Community.
Why is it ridiculous that a girl like Penny would do those things? She looks more athleticv than the boys and lots of pretty girls binge drink.
If it's not meant to seem ridiculous, where's the joke? Why did you bring it up as an instance of the audience laughing at Penny?
But just to say alcohol does not allow him to act human. He becomes a jerk. The joke is that he can either not talk or be a jerk.
Well, we've seen Drunk!Raj and Sober!Raj, and there is indeed a difference between them. But there's also Alcohol-Proximity!Raj, who is exactly like Sober!Raj save for the fact that he can talk to girls. That's, at the very least, just lazy-ass writing. You can have a schism between Hulk and Bruce Banner, but you can't say that the default is Bruce Banner getting all of the benefits of Hulk with none of the downsides as long as he's wearing purple pants.
Yes but they usually laugh at what Howard says in response because Raj has said something that Howard can't ask or say in company. You've missed the actual joke there. And it has been used to further a scene, such as when Howard blamed Raj for something knowing he couldn't defend himself and when Raj whispered in his ear he totally lied. I found that funny.
Bells had said the mute thing was an aspect of the character that was integral to Raj and that the show would never pick on this aspect of him. I was pointing out that wasn't the case. Thank you for adding another example (Howard abusing his knowledge of Raj's mutism to lay false blame on Raj, knowing that due to Raj's mutism he couldn't defend himself.)

[Solid Snake]

Snake, please keep this in mind for future posts in this thread, or perhaps step out for a bit.

Your selective enforcement of this principle is, in practice, defending trolls from criticism far more than it's accomplishing anything constructive in these kinds of conversations. As exemplified in the fact that these kinds of awful threads have occurred on a continual basis, and will certainly continue to occur in the future.

If you think me and my 'backseat moderation' (I'd prefer truth-telling, but whatever works) was more a problem in this thread than Bells and his brazen trolling was, just tell me straight up and I'll leave NPF and you won't have to deal with me anymore.

That's not intended as a 'threat,' as Lord knows many of you would prefer I left anyway. More as a mutually beneficial arrangement. You can keep the community the way you'd prefer it, and enforce the rules the way you'd like to enforce them. And I can find better ways to spend my time than in a place where I'm expected to tolerate this kind of behavior without the ability to publicly address exactly why it's so detrimental.

[Osterbaum]

10 pages of debate about The Big Bang Theory. What a bunch of nerds.

[McTahr]

Snake, I've PM'd you about this, and this is severely off-topic at this point. Do not continue this line of discussion in this thread.

The rest of you carry on with your discussion of this terrible, terrible show.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I only read the first chapter of his novel but Snake is right on this and everyone else is not really engaging his points. We already had this exact debate in the last thread though. Didn't we come to the conclusion that the best strategy was to confront bigotry and not just report it.

Also Osterbaum, use a real page per post settings- its 2 pages.

[Bells]

Bells had said the mute thing was an aspect of the character that was integral to Raj and that the show would never pick on this aspect of him. I was pointing out that wasn't the case. Thank you for adding another example (Howard abusing his knowledge of Raj's mutism to lay false blame on Raj, knowing that due to Raj's mutism he couldn't defend himself.)

Actually i was just underlining the point that the show doesn't make a "lol people with disorders are funny" joke, since many here don't follow the show, this notion could easily come across, but it would be wrong... surely the show makes tons of situation where his condition would be "quirky" and made for gags... that's the shtick. But i wanted to try to bring forward that the show doesn't have a mean spirited sense of humor since this is a real psychiatric condition that i'm sure more than a couple of the show's fans probably have and/or relate to in some degree.

As for teasing Raj, it comes and goes every character does it and gets it at some point

lXBjkHB90bAegwQNdKiUyI

BTW, if anybody actually care, there is spoilers above...


Except for the episode where he gets drunk, and that lets him "score" the hottie at some party, and he has sex with her, then wakes up and freaks out HILARIOUSLY over how he's in bed with a woman who was super attracted to him because of how he acted like a douche when he was drunk.

There are many problems with this.

There is also another Episode where he gets drunk in a party and wakes up next to a overweight girl, he rolls, sees her, thinks for a second, and turns again with a huge smile and goes back to sleep. Also there is the above video i mentioned. Outside of context anything can look shady, but it's not a really good thought process to analyse anything from this kinds of shows as a unique point in the universe, you need a little context and sense of continuity to see if the show has bad vices or if something is just showing in a bad light...

[shiney]

I think we're overlooking the bigger point of this thread, which is to say, everyone who watches this show is retarded.

Now that's trollin'.

[Bells]

I think we're overlooking the bigger point of this thread, which is to say, everyone who watches this show is retarded.

Now that's trollin'.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2467yvr.jpg

[BloodyMage]

"That would be frustrating and if this was a drama he'd be deeply troubled."
But that's my entire point!!!

It's wrong plain and simple that our society views homosexuality as so abhorrent that for others to believe we may be homosexual is 'deeply troubling.'

Look, I know Raj isn't homosexual. It really shouldn't matter, but that's not the point of my argument. It's how Raj and others in his social network view the 'accusation' of homosexuality that's so offensive from a social justice perspective.

Ideally we'd live in a society where we didn't give a shit if someone misidentified our sexuality. Period. End of story. What this show does is it turns heterosexuality into a badge of 'normalcy' and 'honor' that Raj is only too desperate to cling to.

It'd be deeply troubling for the character who is unable to cast of the perception of homosexuality just because he likes to do non-manly things. Not because being a homosexual is a terrible thing which must be avoided at all costs. And the show never paints it like that. I mean, we can either walk on egg shells on this and say all homosexuals on TV must be painted in a light which makes it ok incase someone gets the wrong idea or we can treat them like people, the way we do straight people, and have jokes about it.

And it's not even like the humour is that offensive. Raj likes to cook, dress well and takes care of his body. Yeah, not necessarily manly-man activities to be sure, but then none of the main cast are manly men at all. When assigned roles by Sheldon, Leonard of all people becomes the muscle. It's just another area in which one of the main cast isn't a man. But homosexuality isn't treated like an accusation. In one episode Raj asks his parents to arrange a date for him and the woman that he is paired with is a lesbian looking to get her parents off her back. How is that insulting exactly? Never once in the episode is Raj disgusted that she's actually a lesbian while at the same time it highlights the social injustice that still exists in India of homosexuality being frowned upon.

On the final note, it's not just misidentified, it's constantly so. Can you imagine how soul destroying it must be to identify as something but have no one accept it? Raj doesn't cling to heterosexuality as a badge of normalcy, he just wants to get a girlfriend so his friends can stop ribbing on him. We all know of people who didn't date in high school and got made fun of and practically every one thought they were gay but a few years later got married and had families. At best you might be able to call the main cast immature but no one is treating homosexuality as wrong in the show.

First: It's ableist. It's the same kind of shit that upsets so many people when it comes to Sheldon's potential representation of individuals with Asperger's. Exaggerating a disorder into the punching bag for a series of jokes -- so that the misconstrued disability itself is the butt of the joke -- is something that should be avoided. When this happens, Raj is stripped of humanity and simply becomes that guy whose Selective Mutism makes him unable to function. Hell, the fact that it happens solely, exclusively and consistently whenever a woman is simply present -- and the fact that alcohol always temporarily 'cures' the condition -- these are misrepresentations of what Selective Mutism actually is, done so that we can laugh at the idea that someone would have such an affliction.

Second: Bells can't simultaneously claim the 'real disorder' as a defense of Raj's representation of a 'dysfunctional' individual and suggest that "the show never pounces on his shyness...never makes light or pokes fun" at said serious disorder, then claim comedic license for the show's producers to exaggerate that disorder because doing so would be 'funny'. His positions are contradictory.

Right, so we can't show any disorder in sitcoms because people will end up misunderstanding how it works? Or do you actually think that someone with selective mutism will watch the show and think alcohol will cure them? Because I'm quite sure most people will know that it's a sitcom and alcohol doesn't work that way. Maybe I'm giving the human race too much credit but you can't treat your viewers like morons.

It feels like you really want this show to be something very serious that deals with social disorders and homosexuality (among other things) but that wouldn't be a sitcom and it wouldn't be funny. I mean, if nothing else these people aren't human. They're characters. They are characterised by certain attributes so that when we tune in we can instantly recognise a character. Humans are more complex, granted, but for a television show to depict a fully human character would require more time than a sitcom has and, again, it wouldn't be funny. I don't know about you but my life is not a barrel of laughs. An exaggerated version of me and my friends might be but not it as it currently is in it's most human state.

You'll have to talk to Bells about what Bells said.

I want to watch the same show you do, where the characters are primarily mining the depths of pop culture, nerdy and otherwise, in order to make jokes, rather than primarily relying on surface pop culture references that code as nerdy (regardless of how popular they are in actual culture). Or rather, I want that show to just finally come back on the air, since it's called Community.

I've never watched Community so I can't comment on it. But all the stuff I mentioned happens on Big Bang Theory, just maybe not as often as you'd like? I dunno, I like that the episodes have some plot and a sense of continuity.

If it's not meant to seem ridiculous, where's the joke? Why did you bring it up as an instance of the audience laughing at Penny?

It's hilarious because she passed out on the floor during a game of twister and to wake her up Bernadette told her they ran out of wine. Not the most intelligent humour, I'll give you that, but it's a funny exaggeration of how bad her alcoholism has digressed since the break up. That doesn't destroy the fact that break up was difficult for her or is it funny because it's ridiculous that a pretty girl would binge drink or be that broken up about a relationship. It's funny because it's a situation that lends itself to comedy.

Well, we've seen Drunk!Raj and Sober!Raj, and there is indeed a difference between them. But there's also Alcohol-Proximity!Raj, who is exactly like Sober!Raj save for the fact that he can talk to girls. That's, at the very least, just lazy-ass writing. You can have a schism between Hulk and Bruce Banner, but you can't say that the default is Bruce Banner getting all of the benefits of Hulk with none of the downsides as long as he's wearing purple pants.

There's also a scale. Raj has been shown to get more of a jerkass the more he drinks. And it also depends largely on what he drinks, which lends me to believe that he drinks light beer not just to keep the calories down but perhaps it affects him less. So I guess some kind of hulk in the middle, like Grey Hulk with the brains and brawn?

Bells had said the mute thing was an aspect of the character that was integral to Raj and that the show would never pick on this aspect of him. I was pointing out that wasn't the case. Thank you for adding another example (Howard abusing his knowledge of Raj's mutism to lay false blame on Raj, knowing that due to Raj's mutism he couldn't defend himself.)

You're welcome.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I think we're overlooking the bigger point of this thread, which is to say, everyone who watches this show is retarded.

Now that's trollin'.

You got promise kid. You got gumption, you got moxy, you got heart. You drop by my office anytime and tell them I asked for yah.

[POS Industries]

It'd be deeply troubling for the character who is unable to cast of the perception of homosexuality just because he likes to do non-manly things. Not because being a homosexual is a terrible thing which must be avoided at all costs. And the show never paints it like that. I mean, we can either walk on egg shells on this and say all homosexuals on TV must be painted in a light which makes it ok incase someone gets the wrong idea or we can treat them like people, the way we do straight people, and have jokes about it.

And it's not even like the humour is that offensive. Raj likes to cook, dress well and takes care of his body. Yeah, not necessarily manly-man activities to be sure, but then none of the main cast are manly men at all. When assigned roles by Sheldon, Leonard of all people becomes the muscle. It's just another area in which one of the main cast isn't a man. But homosexuality isn't treated like an accusation. In one episode Raj asks his parents to arrange a date for him and the woman that he is paired with is a lesbian looking to get her parents off her back. How is that insulting exactly? Never once in the episode is Raj disgusted that she's actually a lesbian while at the same time it highlights the social injustice that still exists in India of homosexuality being frowned upon.

On the final note, it's not just misidentified, it's constantly so. Can you imagine how soul destroying it must be to identify as something but have no one accept it? Raj doesn't cling to heterosexuality as a badge of normalcy, he just wants to get a girlfriend so his friends can stop ribbing on him. We all know of people who didn't date in high school and got made fun of and practically every one thought they were gay but a few years later got married and had families. At best you might be able to call the main cast immature but no one is treating homosexuality as wrong in the show.
Aside from the one instance you mentioned where they throw a bone to the gay community to say "hey, gay people are people too, and they have to deal with some rough shit" while still, of course, playing it up for laughs, the show really does treat being a gay man or even just a man who "lowers himself" to doing "womanly" things like it's a thing that you don't want to be. The joke is that Raj does "unmanly" things and we are supposed to laugh at him for it. The other characters make fun of him for his interests, and the punchline is often nothing more than "Raj does girl things."

That's super duper offensive. It's sexist and homophobic all at once. It's not treating gay people like people everyone else is being treated, because just being straight is never a punchline in the same way. It's a shitty message to send and a shittier one to defend.

Right, so we can't show any disorder in sitcoms because people will end up misunderstanding how it works? Or do you actually think that someone with selective mutism will watch the show and think alcohol will cure them? Because I'm quite sure most people will know that it's a sitcom and alcohol doesn't work that way. Maybe I'm giving the human race too much credit but you can't treat your viewers like morons.
What? It's misrepresenting the pain people who have the disorder in real life have to go through for cheap laughs. It insults the people who have it, which is more important than risking insulting the intelligence of people who don't.

It feels like you really want this show to be something very serious that deals with social disorders and homosexuality (among other things) but that wouldn't be a sitcom and it wouldn't be funny. I mean, if nothing else these people aren't human. They're characters. They are characterised by certain attributes so that when we tune in we can instantly recognise a character. Humans are more complex, granted, but for a television show to depict a fully human character would require more time than a sitcom has and, again, it wouldn't be funny. I don't know about you but my life is not a barrel of laughs. An exaggerated version of me and my friends might be but not it as it currently is in it's most human state.
Oh right, it's okay for them to be offensive caricatures of people who aren't straight/neurotypical/white/etc. because they aren't real people. Let's just not worry about the real people that they're supposed to be based on and have a few laughs at their expense. Awesome.

[Bells]

There's also a scale. Raj has been shown to get more of a jerkass the more he drinks. And it also depends largely on what he drinks, which lends me to believe that he drinks light beer not just to keep the calories down but perhaps it affects him less. So I guess some kind of hulk in the middle, like Grey Hulk with the brains and brawn?

There is a scale, he is seen having a light beer most of the time he is eating out with friends, mostly at diner... i don't even drink and even i think this is far from being any sort of problem. In other situations he drinks other stuff and the effects ramp up quickly. Like the Rum Cake in one episode.

Also, this...

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Only further evidence that his problems are Psycological + "It's a sitcom-itis" since Alcohol can't possible effect people THAT fast

[BloodyMage]

Aside from the one instance you mentioned where they throw a bone to the gay community to say "hey, gay people are people too, and they have to deal with some rough shit" while still, of course, playing it up for laughs, the show really does treat being a gay man or even just a man who "lowers himself" to doing "womanly" things like it's a thing that you don't want to be. The joke is that Raj does "unmanly" things and we are supposed to laugh at him for it. The other characters make fun of him for his interests, and the punchline is often nothing more than "Raj does girl things."

That's super duper offensive. It's sexist and homophobic all at once. It's not treating gay people like people everyone else is being treated, because just being straight is never a punchline in the same way. It's a shitty message to send and a shittier one to defend.

They also make fun of Penny for doing man-things. Amy is casually bi-sexual or at the very least appreciates the beauty of both men and women which is played for laughs because she has an sexually ignorant boyfriend, no one even knows what Sheldon is, as they joked about him reproducing in various ways in an early episode, Howard's promiscuous and often overtly creepy attempts to pick up women is the butt of jokes for him and Leonard is clingy and needy with women. This is all stuff we are supposed to laugh at but the homosexuality is treated like a bigger deal.

I mean, geez, it's not like they throwing rotton fruit at him or kicking him out of the group for not being man enough. That kind of macho bull doesn't even exist in this show. Its gentle ribbing and every character gets it from some direction. Raj's isn't even always that he likes cooking and looking after himself, sometimes it's a mutism, sometimes it's his Indian background. It's like none of you have ever annoyed a friend simply because it's fun to annoy him.

What? It's misrepresenting the pain people who have the disorder in real life have to go through for cheap laughs. It insults the people who have it, which is more important than risking insulting the intelligence of people who don't.

In so far as if the option is slightly misrepresenting it for a joke ( I wouldn't call it cheap laughs since it's a part of the character that is continually and routinely investigated, such as the occasions when he has mentioned using meditation or experimental drugs) or treating it with the most absolute detailed honesty. I mean you could take the third option and take it out but I'm not convinced it's that insulting. Someone with selective mutism might even find the alcohol solution funny because it wouldn't work. But you'd have to ask someone who has it.


Oh right, it's okay for them to be offensive caricatures of people who aren't straight/neurotypical/white/etc. because they aren't real people. Let's just not worry about the real people that they're supposed to be based on and have a few laughs at their expense. Awesome.

It is if you're going to have caricatures of straight, neurotypical white people too because they also aren't people. What real people are they based on? Did I miss where this was based on a true story? It's fiction. They are characters. The closer you get to creating a character that is completely human the further away you go from dramatic and entertaining story telling. That isn't to say it won't be interesting but it's interesting in the way James Joyce might be interesting rather than say Adrian Mole.

[Kim]

Apparently BBT has thrown around the word tranny for laughs so I'm gonna go ahead and say case closed fuck everyone responsible for this abomination.

[Bells]

Unless of course all characters of fiction must be perfect... but that would upset the perfect people.

[Kim]

Unless of course all characters of fiction must be perfect... but that would upset the perfect people.

At this point in time, you're arguing that it's okay for a show to contribute to the oppression that leads to one in twelve trans women being murdered, our identity being reduced to "chicks with dicks", and a hateful, unaccepting society that drives many of us to suicide.

The show itself, as written by its creators, has chosen to do so to make an audience laugh, all in pursuit of material gain. The creators value money over the lives of trans women.

I wan't to make perfectly sure that this is the avenue you want to go, Bells.

Do you really think this is excusable?

[shiney]

But Kim. It's for the sake of comedy and network share. Do you not live in America? Do you not live in the most pure example to date, in the existence of humanity, of unfettered capitalism? Do you not respect the ideals this country was founded on.

If I were a betting man I would suspect you think "human lives" are worth more than "profit" for which lol dick