Star War's Big Gay Planet

[Art of Hilt]

BioWare wants to take you to a gay bar. Or rather, a gay planet. Star Wars: The Old Republic is being updated to include a rather inelegant solution to its lack of gay characters -- a planet called Makeb where all the homosexual elements of the galaxy can be found.

Oh dear.

Makeb will appear in the Rise of the Hutt Cartel expansion pack, and will include characters with "flirtatious" dialog for same-sex players -- a move that some feel amounts to digital segregation.

This attempt at compromise has had the unfortunate result of making everybody unhappy. Gay players now feel like a gated afterthought, while homophobes are spewing their pathetically predictable outrage at having to share the vastness of space with some gay people.

"It will ruin the game and make a lot of people leave it," reads one such utterly selfish comment.

While BioWare's catching a lot of heat from all corners, and the idea of a single planet housing all the gay elements of the universe comes across as alienating and just plain weird, I find it hard to be totally mad at the studio here.

It's true that Makeb makes the idea of gay relationships look more of an afterthought than ever, but most other videogames still struggle with after-afterthoughts, and you'd be hard pressed to find many other mainstream studios with a more consistent track record of not being shit about acknowledging homosexuality. Not to mention, the source material wasn't exactly a guiding light on the topic, so BioWare's been bolder than most others have been.

Makeb itself is something of a stop-gap while BioWare works on companion characters with which to enjoy "same gender relationships," something executive producer Jeff Hickman admitted would take more work than expected.

"I realize that we promised SGR to you guys and that many of you believed that this would be with a companion character," he wrote. "Unfortunately, this will take a lot more work than we realized at the time and it (like some other pieces of content we talked about earlier in the year) has been delayed as we focused on the changes required to take the game Free-to-Play. As we have said in the past, allowing same gender romance is something we are very supportive of."

Of course, there's a fair argument to be had in saying it's better to wait for a real effort than toss out what amounts to a virtual paddock area. The creation of Makeb, while likely infused with nothing but good intentions, has nonetheless come off as rather tasteless. I mean, if you imagined a planet that housed all the women, or all members of a certain nationality, even those with limited empathetic ability should be able to see the issue.

BioWare's intentions and past record doesn't make the situation cool in any way, but in a world of entertainment where "person is gay" is still considered both a joke and the punchline to the very same joke, it feels wrong to pour overwhelming scorn on a studio that's at least trying, in its own awkward way. It shouldn't be free from criticism, either, but I dare say the reaction could benefit from being a tad more tempered.

Quite a knotty issue indeed, and one of those instances where, while I can understand where BioWare's coming from, I can't help feeling this is a situation it could've afforded to wait on until it got it right.

Oh, and to the homophobes -- I hope you find yourself one day sucking on the biggest penis ever, belonging to a guy dressed up like one of the Cantina band. And you love it. And you ...

Don't.

Know.

Why.

http://www.destructoid.com/star-wars-the-old-republic-and-its-new-gay-planet--242389.phtml

Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Aha ha ha ha ha ha hah ha ha

Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

It's ridiculously clumsy, sure. I'd be a lot more offended if it was their final solution, but since apparently it's not, I'm only slightly offended. But the kind of offended that's easy to laugh at because aha ha ha holy shit it's literally a giant pink planet.

[stefan]

At this point I'm legitimately starting to wonder if Bioware is deliberately trying to tear themselves apart as violently as possible. There is literally no way anyone at a staff meeting signed off on this with a straight face.

[phil_]

So, what will Makebian's look like? Humans with funny foreheads? Humans with bright pink skin? CGI monsters?

[Solid Snake]

While I understand that an ideal society would incorporate exclusive spaces for members of the LGBT community to congregate without the majoritarian influences of 'mainstream heterosexual society' coercing them into conformity, I can't say I care for the implicit notion here that, even in a utopian science-fiction universe, homosexuals would be segregated onto one planet, and you'd never see them on all the other, "more important" planets.

I mean can you imagine the reaction if Bioware had just tossed all the minority-race characters onto a single planet, as if that's the only place you'd find them? I don't understand why there wouldn't be a similar outcry here. Are heterosexuals and members of the LGBT community in the Star Wars universe incapable of merrily coexisting as equal participants in society? Is bigotry still a thing there? This is particularly strange because it isn't like Star Wars segregates aliens and humans. Different species of aliens can be found interacting just about everywhere else, and you'd think that would be a far bigger cultural hurdle to overcome.

[Token]

Star Wars has always been big on planets full of minority stereotypes. Can't really fault BioWare for acting in the spirit of the canon.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Isn't everyone in Star Wars universe already gay? There are 3 women in the whole galaxy and an endless supply of sexy maori dudes.

[Locke cole]

That galaxy isn't exactly utopian, though.

Exhibit A: Tatooine.

Exhibit B: That whole "Empire" thing.

Which isn't to say that I think this makes much sense at all. You'd think that, even if the Republic had an extreme homophobic bias, you'd still be able to find a few gay bars on Coruscant or something, rather than what appears to be the homosexuals making their own planet, with blackjack.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Maybe it's just an amazingly awesome planet and only homosexuals know about it so they're all just going "Why the fuck would you even want to go anywhere else"

[Token]

Homosexuals are compelled to go there because they're driven by the Flounce.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

This is why they outlawed homosexuals- they were having too much fun and not sharing it with anyone else.

[Locke cole]

Is that, like, an offshoot or equivalent of the Force?

[Token]

Equivalent. Less midichlorians, more midicklorians.

[Locke cole]

Such a divide must be why purple lightsabers are a lost art in most of the galaxy.

[Flarecobra]

Beviin (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Goran_Beviin) and Vasur (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Medrit_Vasur) are probably facepalming like crazy now.

(Both Mandolorians, just like Boba Fett)

[Kim]

maybe someday therell be a trans planet

(no there wont)

this is pretty butts dumb and killed all interest i had in the expansion plus the fucked uppedness of forcing gay people to pay for any representation in a free to play game

but on the right side a bunch of homophobes are really pissed off at this so it cheers me up a little

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The EU doesn't count because it is stupid. And hamfistedly dropped all these atrocities on the empire because they are in love with leather jackets and the Dennis Hoppers who wear them.

[Kim]

at first i thought you were talking about the european union

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Well that doesn't count either for similar reasons.

[CABAL49]

Isn't everyone in Star Wars universe already gay? There are 3 women in the whole galaxy and an endless supply of sexy maori dudes.

SWTORO is a prequel to the movies. With the actual inclusion of black people and women, I hope Bioware explains what happened to them leading up to a New Hope.

The game might be more fun if it wasn't such a grindhouse.

[Magus]

I'm only behind this if the planet is named Gheybarr.

[Ramary]

The Old Republic continues to be my favorite train wreck of a game.

God bless it. Shame that I refuse to play since free to play because they wanted me to pay real money for quest rewards.

[Arhra]

I'm only behind this if the planet is named Gheybarr.

But what kind of people would want to settle on a Gheybarr?

[Seil]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u59/Poetisch/i-WwF5xJL-950x10000.jpg

[Aerozord]

While I understand that an ideal society would incorporate exclusive spaces for members of the LGBT community to congregate without the majoritarian influences of 'mainstream heterosexual society' coercing them into conformity, I can't say I care for the implicit notion here that, even in a utopian science-fiction universe, homosexuals would be segregated onto one planet, and you'd never see them on all the other, "more important" planets.

I'm sorry did... did you just call the star wars universe utopian? The universe where being evil and corrupt grants you the power to shoot lightning from your hands? Just Star Wars has always been kind of a crappy place to live. Sure there are cool things to do but thats because its a universe of corruption, violence, and hatred.

Heck one of the Emperor's big changes was ethnic cleansing of the new empire. This isn't a place of peace and understanding to start with

[Solid Snake]

I'm sorry did... did you just call the star wars universe utopian?

Yes.

It's a cheery, pleasant sci-fi series that isn't remotely dystopian. The bad guys are the kinds of over-the-top caricatures traditionally associated with fairy tales. Aliens and humans of all races and creeds are intermingled in society. Sexism, racism and specieism do not appear to exist, or at least they're not commented upon. Technology has progressed in such a way as to cure many ills in modern society. Technological innovations are seen from the sole perspective of positive progression. Civilization has spread throughout the galaxy.

I'm not saying the Star Wars universe is perfect. There are unfortunate SJ implications in various omissions and the expanded universe incorporates some darker elements than we see in the films. But, as contrasted with dystopian science fiction, Star Wars (the films) stems from a genre of sci-fi that's intended to instill us with awe and wonder as to what a potential future might be like. Its success is a reflection of our desire to imagine ourselves in that future, as contrasted with science fiction that plays upon our fears of how far humanity will fall.

You seem to be assuming that "utopian" fiction can't have villains or conflict, which seems rather absurd. Mass Effect is utopian sci-fi too, even with the Reapers. Look at all the different species, solving their conflicts with amiable diplomacy! Look at how technology provides Shepard and his crew with so many wonders for us to marvel at!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Here are things that exist in star wars universe:
Slavery of both people and intelligent robots- and if the robots get to uppity its ok we'll just mindwipe them and start again, Monarchies, Corrupt beaureaucrats who run everything, plenty of lawless backwaters run by crimelords (in fact every planet that iis s not coruscant seems to be this) or armed military goons- take your pick, a complete lack of cellphones or anyway to communicate at distance.
Like what exactly is utopian about star wars? It's about the same, possibly worse (if you live in say America compared to say Tatoine your live is heaps better off) than the world we live in.

[CABAL49]

Yes.
Sexism, racism and specieism do not appear to exist, or at least they're not commented upon.



There are also no women and almost all humans are white. It is also a series in which the native inhabitants on a planet are treated as backwards savages because they are tired of humans taking their land.

[Solid Snake]

There's a considerable amount of injustice in Neverland too, but that doesn't stop Peter Pan from being a utopian fairy tale.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Neverland is a land that has achieved hyper-supply, that literally can just imagine whatever it is they want. That's pretty utopian.

[CABAL49]

Also, if we accept KOTOR as cannon, all technology is stolen. No one ever invents anything. Except maybe the Death Star. Are there even scientists in Star Wars?

[Ramary]

You get nothing but racist dicks hating aliens almost to the level of a Space Marine when you play sithside in TOR. Pretty much every Imperial human on sith side hates dem xenos yo, they are inferior peoples after all, they only stand human-like aliens for plot convenience so players can have more race choices besides "Human" "Robot Human" and "Pure blood".

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Large swathes of the universe are under the swath of a fundamentalist cult- a cult that is demonstrably wrong as well and uses its religious beliefs and political/military control to enforce its bullshit beliefs. We know there are scientists and that they are ace because they build the death star which was awesome but Luke probably murdered them all in his jedi-rage.7

E: Also the universe is perpetually at war. Everybody is always murdering somebody else. That is like the exact opposite of utopia.
Nobody ever put Snake in charge of anything guys. Not that you would have before for obvious reasons but we are just doubling down on this fact.

[CABAL49]

Star Wars was never really meant to be anything more than the Wild West in space, which was an incredibly shitty place to live in.

And the Death Star doesn't really prove there are scientists. All it was, is taking their currently existing technology and building a bigger version. I am pretty sure I could design that.

[Solid Snake]

There are also no women and almost all humans are white. It is also a series in which the native inhabitants on a planet are treated as backwards savages because they are tired of humans taking their land.

*sigh*
You're completely misconstruing my point.

My original point was that the social justice issue of segregating homosexuals is even worse in utopian science fiction than in dystopian science fiction. You pointing out additional social justice issues in the Star Wars film only furthers this critique.

You're presuming that my identification of Star Wars as a 'utopian' work of fiction is intended to imply objective perfection or the attainment of an ideal society. If that were the case, there'd be no such thing as 'utopian' fiction because every work of fiction requires antagonists and requires the existence of conflict.

That's not what I'm arguing.
I'm saying there are two kinds of science fiction: Utopian and dystopian.

Utopian plays on hope as a central emotion and tone to its audience. The mood of the fiction is intended to illustrate "a future you look up to in awe and respect; a place you'd want to be." The fact that you might actually not want to live in the Star Wars universe because of all the very accurate criticisms you've made in your analysis of that galactic civilization's issues doesn't change the manner in which Star Wars is presented. The bright and whimsical orchestral pieces, the way technology and innovation are always shown in the most positive light, the fact that the films fail to actually dissect the various injustices in its society, the fairy-tale resolutions of the plots -- this is a utopian fairy-tale adventure. Do you ever doubt that Luke Skywalker is going to blow up the Death Star? Are the consequences of the destruction of an entire planet and the genocide of Alderaan actually seriously explored, or does the movie just skip any such analysis and jump right into the next virtuous fanfare?

It's also a science-fiction piece written for the benefit of privileged boys in a patriarchal civilization, so it's filled with all the social-justice issues mentioned and it has all kinds of problems worth critiquing. But those criticisms are even more cogent because the theme of the work is intended to be utopian; in other words, because Star Wars is presented to children with such an idealistic gauze, it's even worse that oppression and privilege are present in the story. If the story was dystopian and presented a remarkably darker future with a darker tone, that'd be different, but that's not the case in Star Wars.

I mean I think what you're saying is "All of these consequences of plot points in Star Wars would lead to all these injustices and all these atrocities that would make the universe a terrible place to live in." Which is fine. But that isn't what's actually on-screen. What's on-screen is a film that doesn't want to bother with all those little details of how horrible life would be for the average impoverished farmer on Tatooine, because instead it wants to tell you a utopian fairy tale about Luke defeating evil with the mystical Force and a glowing sword.

[Ramary]

And this is not the Star Wars Movies, it is Bioware's The Old Republic, they take crazy liberties with the Star Wars license.

Like every place you go to in TOR is a terrible shit hole in one way or another. In the grim darkness of a long time ago, there is only war.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Star Wars is presented with the theme of murdering the bad guys. The setting is pretty much entirely incidental. This is one of the key reasons its not actually science fiction. It is not intended as a tale of a utopian universe which we should strive to achieve. It is a tale of a few good people defeating a lot of evil people. That is it. You take star wars and put it in 1920s chicago or ancient china or the magical dewberry kingdom and you could tell it exactly the same- and we know this for a fact because George Lucas did this in reverse. It is a story about people, not about the world.

[Aerozord]

I think you misunderstand what utopian means. While social equality is part of it you also need removal of crime, corruption, slavery, socio-economic inequality, and material need. All of which exist in the star wars universe. Utopian isn't good winning over evil, its evil not existing in the first place. Its why a utopian society isn't achievable in the real world.

[CABAL49]

And my point is that Star Wars is dystopian. There is nothing about Star Wars that makes me optimistic about the future. It is like saying Starship Troopers or The man with the Positronic Brain is utopian.

I mean yeah we get to see the heroes win a few battles. I a war that encompasses the entire galaxy. It is hardly happy fun times.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Its why a utopian society isn't achievable in the real world.

Nope.

And there are about 4 characters in star-wars. It could be Wongian style Chamber drama, who gives a shit.

[Azisien]

I refuse to play any games that are Pay2Gay.

[Locke cole]

How are Jedi and Sith demonstrably wrong? The extent of their faith appears to be "There's an invisible force that lets us move stuff with our minds", and then they proceed to move things with their minds.

I mean, there are issues with the ideology, sure, but they're spot on about the whole having magical powers thing.

[Arcanum]

the way technology and innovation are always shown in the most positive light

Oh man you're right. That tech they put into slaves to make their head explode like Gallagher going at a watermelon if they try to run away is super positive.

[Aerozord]

How are Jedi and Sith demonstrably wrong? The extent of their faith appears to be "There's an invisible force that lets us move stuff with our minds", and then they proceed to move things with their minds.

I mean, there are issues with the ideology, sure, but they're spot on about the whole having magical powers thing.

nearest I can figure its more religious feel in the original trilogy is because most force users are dead and the empire intentionally suppressed it. So most of the concrete proof that it exists and can be manipulated was lost. Then good old human skepticism comes into play

"I haven't seen anyone use the force. Therefor no one can use it."

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

How are Jedi and Sith demonstrably wrong? The extent of their faith appears to be "There's an invisible force that lets us move stuff with our minds", and then they proceed to move things with their minds.

I mean, there are issues with the ideology, sure, but they're spot on about the whole having magical powers thing.

Just because the volcano erupts doesn't mean there's actually a volcano god to get pissed off.

[Solid Snake]

Just because the volcano erupts doesn't mean there's actually a volcano god to get pissed off.

It's a little different when the volcano actually erupts every time you ask it to, though.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

The point is that there's a difference between forces of nature and building a religious belief around those forces.

[Solid Snake]

The point is that there's a difference between forces of nature and building a religious belief around those forces.

But do the Jedi or Sith really have 'religious beliefs' that inject additional lore into the Force? I always thought the movies and most of the EU was just like, "The Force is mystical energy that binds all things." If anything the Jedi and Sith generally agreed as to what the Force was but just wanted to manipulate the Force to achieve different objectives.

[Ramary]

Does not help that, at least in TOR, both religions are completely terrible.

Pick one, emontionless moral absolution, or super racist Sparta.

[Aerozord]

The point is that there's a difference between forces of nature and building a religious belief around those forces.

you can argue that the force is a guiding will, but the skeptics in the setting say it doesn't exist at all.

Though regardless the person that created the universe has said the force is real, it is a guiding influence, it is a dichotomy of good vs evil.

This is why I always said no matter how much evidence there is of divinity you will always have atheists because look at this. You have people arguing that a fictional religion is wrong, despite the people that came up with it telling you the religion is correct. In the Star Wars universe the force, light side dark side, ect is simple fact not speculation.

[Aerozord]

Does not help that, at least in TOR, both religions are completely terrible.

Pick one, emontionless moral absolution, or super racist Sparta.

Light side was all about self sacrificing altruism. Jedi are to give up everything and serve others. Sucks for them but having super powered police ideally devoid of self interest is a nice thing to have for everyone else.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

Jedi have faith in the force, they worship the force, they have ritualistic practices related to the force, they have an institutional system of attitudes and beliefs about what the force is and how to interact with it.

[Solid Snake]

This is why I always said no matter how much evidence there is of divinity you will always have atheists because look at this. You have people arguing that a fictional religion is wrong, despite the people that came up with it telling you the religion is correct. In the Star Wars universe the force, light side dark side, ect is simple fact not speculation.

There's a difference between spirituality and religion, though.

It's entirely possible that the Sith and Jedi are spiritually correct insofar as their belief in the Force as mystical, manipulable energy is justified, but wrong in the subsequent ideologies deriving from this belief.

The comparable real-world analogy would be if the Abrahamic religions were correct in their belief in Yahweh / God / Allah, but if the Bible and the Torah and the Koran completely misrepresented what God was actually trying to tell us.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I kinda feel like Aero is having a different conversation.

[Aerozord]

It's entirely possible that the Sith and Jedi are spiritually correct insofar as their belief in the Force as mystical, manipulable energy is justified, but wrong in the subsequent ideologies deriving from this belief.

yes except for two things.

First is that they aren't differing ideologies. The sith are under no delusion that they are good and altruistic. They have personal goals and place them above the welfare of others. Which is connected to the second point.

Lucas has said, dark side is evil, light side is good. There is no middle ground, no compromise, just a black and white choice in what your ultimate goal is.

However both sides agree that the other exists and is correct. They kill each other because their goals are opposed. Not because they disagree on what the force is or how it works, they completely agree on those points.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Lucas is a nitwit.

[Kim]

Light side was all about self sacrificing altruism. Jedi are to give up everything and serve others. Sucks for them but having super powered police ideally devoid of self interest is a nice thing to have for everyone else.

nah light side is pretty fucked

[Solid Snake]

yes except for two things.

First is that they aren't differing ideologies. The sith are under no delusion that they are good and altruistic. They have personal goals and place them above the welfare of others. Which is connected to the second point.

Lucas has said, dark side is evil, light side is good. There is no middle ground, no compromise, just a black and white choice in what your ultimate goal is.

However both sides agree that the other exists and is correct. They kill each other because their goals are opposed. Not because they disagree on what the force is or how it works, they completely agree on those points.

I'd agree with you if you:

A: Removed the Extended Universe from canon, and
B: Removed the prequels from canon.

As much as I'd like for B to be possible, it isn't. Before the prequel movies were released, though, it was possible to argue based on the original trilogy alone that Light Side was unequivocally Good. Once Lucas signed off on the prequels, that position becomes much harder to defend given how the Jedi were handled in those films.

Actually, fleshing out the Jedi as Not As Great An Institution As You'd Hope was one of the very few things the prequels got right. It made for a much more complex and morally ambiguous storyline. At least it had the potential to before Lucas fucked everything up with terrible dialogue and terrible plot twists and a godawful romance and a stupid explanation for the Clone Wars.

[Locke cole]

One thing that always bemuses me is Tarkin talking to Vader about his "sad devotion to that ancient religion". Unless the dude's younger than Luke, he has to have been around for the whole "Jedi council as a major power" setup.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Force is midichlorians- it is a pure biological process. Take away all the bullshit Jedi rules and you'll be able to like force-choke planets and shit. Guaranteed.

Also the light side is all about stoically accepting the status quo- ie conservatism. If you think the light side is good, go check yourself into a prison because you are a criminal fuck.


Tarkin is fantastic- science and engineering does far more than the force in the star wars films (which does actually fuck all- it chokes a few people but laser guns do that better and can blow up planets, it picks shit up shitter than tractor beams, it contacts across the universe shitter than radio) he is the voice of the audience raging against this old papist extermist who has somehow gained power.

[Solid Snake]

One thing that always bemuses me is Tarkin talking to Vader about his "sad devotion to that ancient religion". Unless the dude's younger than Luke, he has to have been around for the whole "Jedi council as a major power" setup.

Given what an easy time autocracies have at redefining things, it wouldn't shock if me if the Emperor had utilized propaganda to fool the common folks into assuming at the 'Jedi Council' weren't really 'Jedis' at all.

Given how the prequels redefined Jedis and the use of lightsabers anyway, it's possible that the Emperor was just like, the Jedis were exceptionally talented swordsmen with glowing swords, but they had no connection to the Force because that was all made up religious bullocks to keep the masses in line.
...And, given how secretive the Jedi Council were about everything except their lightsaber dependency most would probably buy it.

[PhoenixFlame]

Clocked my face hitting my palm at nearing 1200ft/second.

I need to lay down.

[Locke cole]

Oh. It's the whole "Is Mewtwo psychic?" thing again.

Midichlorians are just a conduit, anyway. They're a measurement of force-sensitivity.

After all, how does a purely biological process let you become a ghost after your precious midichlorian-rich body has been vaporized?

As to technology; one remembers Luke turning off his targeting computer, and using Force-enhanced perception to sink the shot that destroyed the Death Star.

edit:
Given what an easy time autocracies have at redefining things, it wouldn't shock if me if the Emperor had utilized propaganda to fool the common folks into assuming at the 'Jedi Council' weren't really 'Jedis' at all.

Given how the prequels redefined Jedis and the use of lightsabers anyway, it's possible that the Emperor was just like, the Jedis were exceptionally talented swordsmen with glowing swords, but they had no connection to the Force because that was all made up religious bullocks to keep the masses in line.
...And, given how secretive the Jedi Council were about everything except their lightsaber dependency most would probably buy it.

Alright. I'll buy that.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

It's pretty easy to define jedis as the sad devotees of ancient hoodoo because that's what they were. Congratulations, by concentrating for 10 minutes (after months of training) you can lift this rock a few feet. I'll be over here with my tractor beam.

E: To Locke: the force is controlled by cells in your bloodstream- how is that not purely physical. Why do you need a bunch of metaphysical bullshit to control it? Surely you can control them better without the religious stuff surrounding them. This is like how we can describe say the motion of the planets better now that we have got rid of the idea that god would make everything go in circles.
As for luke turning off his targeting computer- that's not really evidence of anything. Just that the computers in the star wars universe are poorer shots than people.

[Locke cole]

However, tractor beams are mostly usable on a scale that's really only feasibly used in space.

A squad of trained force users could make for very efficient construction workers on-planet, without the need for heavy machinery.

edit: Midichlorinas are apparently part of the religion, though, so I'm honestly wondering if the expanded universe novels go into more clarity as to what they actually do. Qui-Gon says they speak to the Force, which just gets back to the question of what the Force is and if one needs to act in a certain way to get the midichlorians in you to do what you want.

[Solid Snake]

Smarty sounds like the one and only person who was remotely satisfied with the midichlorians twist from Episode 1

[Locke cole]

Honestly, though, do midichlorians really change anything other than adding a metric to measure Force potential? I mean, apparently they "speak to the force", so the Force is still a thing...

Seems it was just a plot-point to give them a reason to bring Anakin along.

[Kim]

Honestly, though, do midichlorians really change anything other than adding a metric to measure Force potential? I mean, apparently they "speak to the force", so the Force is still a thing...

Seems it was just a plot-point to give them a reason to bring Anakin along.

Lucas wanted to make it more sci-fi and less spiritual because he's a terrible writer.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Seems it was just a plot-point to give them a reason to bring Anakin along.

Seems kind of silly to need any reason other than "Force says so."

[Locke cole]

Well, it basically is "this machine says the Force says so"

[PhoenixFlame]

Honestly, though, do midichlorians really change anything other than adding a metric to measure Force potential?

Qui Gon Jinn: "We need to train this kid, his power level is over 9000. I checked it on my scouter."

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Funny because I remember reading that the whole reason Toriyama introduced powerlevels was to show how make the villains look stupid for relying on them.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Midichlorians are the ether, are the philogisten, are the dark matter- they are poorly understood standins for the true scientific explanation. But they have numbers, they can be measured, they can be charted. It's not a matter of your will, it's not a matter of how closely you follow the jedi code, it's not a matter of how much you want it- it's how many of these cells you are born with. Cold hard science. Deal with it, chumps.
Claiming otherwise is like claiming intelligence is only related to the number and clustering of your neural connections, these are just a proxy for your relationship to jesus who reveals all wisdom to you. We have a cold hard numerical basis for the force and to claim that is just a tangential link to the real factor which is something Yoda made up when he got high and the only evidence is that he says it is so is total fundie bullcrap.

[Locke cole]

Oh yes, the cold hard science of cells in your body that allow you to be a ghost after your body's been vaporized.

You know... we only ever see Jedi taking midichlorian counts from people, and then, only Jedi Masters. One wonders if Midichlorians aren't a comforting pseudoscientific story concocted by the Jedi Council to keep the masses from trying o develop force powers.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm glad to know that when we have on the one side empirical evidence and on the other side shit some dudes says we are on the side of the raving drunk dude as a forum. What the fuck dudes.

[Locke cole]

Emperical evidence that's only ever gathered by the guys trying to follow said religion. How can we trust that?

"Oh yes, we found, like 20,000 Jesus particles in this guy's blood. That's totally proof of a miracle. The Pope himself tested the sample"

[Professor Smarmiarty]

So your response is "disbelieve in jesus particles, believe in jesus harder"- like if what you ahve said is true the jedi are systematic massive liars, building machiens to corroborate their lies so why are you believing in the force then?

[Locke cole]

Yeah, that was a stupid train of thought on my part. You're right in that wha I was sying there makes no sense, so I won't continue with it.

Anyway, I should again come back to the question of if the Force is only a biological thing, then what the hell are Force Ghosts? Presumably, all of Obi-Wan's midichlorians were vaporized with the rest of him, so what is it?

[synkr0nized]

Weren't midichlorians retconned back into just being a sign of high Force potential and not anything remotely associated with a cause?

edit: sources cited on Wookiepedia (no idea if it's all that credible, though) are used to claim, "A misconception exists that rather than being indicators, midi-chlorians actually are the Force or create it; there is no canonical basis for this belief."

So, like, Jedi A might have a ton of them in his or her cells due to being powerful in the Force, but they aren't what enables A to float ships and deflect blaster bolts or choke a bitch.

But I might have just sought out confirmation of my own preferred spin on things, and perhaps they really are meant to enable the Force. Which is dumb, but I mean given this thread a lot of Star Wars is dumb.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I don't have an explanation obviously. But what I do have is somewhere to look for explanations- midichlorian counts are linked to force powers so that is the place to look for a force mechanism. The jedi can't explain force ghosts either and they've had thousands of years of trying.
It's like I can't explain how gravity works right now but that don't mean I look to the bible for an explanation

E: I only take movies as canon, EU don't count. Because fuck the EU

[synkr0nized]

I won't argue against that point of view, as I'd agree there are some bad works in the EU. But some of them are far better than any of the movies.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Reading is for nerds though

[rpgdemon]

I don't have an explanation obviously. But what I do have is somewhere to look for explanations- midichlorian counts are linked to force powers so that is the place to look for a force mechanism. The jedi can't explain force ghosts either and they've had thousands of years of trying.
It's like I can't explain how gravity works right now but that don't mean I look to the bible for an explanation

E: I only take movies as canon, EU don't count. Because fuck the EU

Well, that's like saying that meat creates maggots when it's left out for awhile, like people believed in the dark ages.

The meat is not the cause of the maggots, but the maggots (Or the things that lay them) are drawn to the meat.

Force powers are the rotting meat, and midiclorians are maggots, here.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You realise saying "it's the force" isn't actually an explanation.

[Locke cole]

Reading is for nerds though

Then how do you know science?

Oral tradition?

[Geminex]

Then how do you know science?

Oral tradition?

The entirety of smarty's education stems from things he heard from a bloke in the pub.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Around the 6th season of power rangers they ran out of ideas so they just ran science lessons instead.

[rpgdemon]

You realise saying "it's the force" isn't actually an explanation.

Do we have any proof that they did research into what midichlorians are? Did their paper get peer reviewed? I mean, speaking critically, they were essentially living in a super high-tech dark age. I think it's fair to say that they just saw midichlorians and said, "THESE ARE THE FORCE!", and stopped their inquiries there.

[Magus]

I think the only utopian science fiction world on any level I can think of is Future Earth in Star Trek, which Roddenberry considered utopian because of its gender and racial equality (and because the female officers were required to wear skirts to accentuate their gams).

Obviously the universe at large was dystopian, though.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Do we have any proof that they did research into what midichlorians are? Did their paper get peer reviewed? I mean, speaking critically, they were essentially living in a super high-tech dark age. I think it's fair to say that they just saw midichlorians and said, "THESE ARE THE FORCE!", and stopped their inquiries there.

I have evidence that concentration of these biological cells allows the manifestations of "force powers".
What evidence is there that you have to be stoic? That you cannot have emotion? That you cannot chop down people you find in a magic tree because it will turn out to be yourself?
I have evidence that "the force" is a mere biological phenomenon which has been monopolised and perverted with tacked on religious mumbo-jumbo. Which is far mroe evidence than the jedi have that say hates leads to the dark side.

You guys are like creationists- not being able to explain everything doesn't mean your method of inquiry is worthless.

[PhoenixFlame]

Because people want to keep power to themselves, and the easiest way is obfuscating how it works so that people won't try to develop it themselves, duh.

[rpgdemon]

I have evidence that concentration of these biological cells allows the manifestations of "force powers".
What evidence is there that you have to be stoic? That you cannot have emotion? That you cannot chop down people you find in a magic tree because it will turn out to be yourself?
I have evidence that "the force" is a mere biological phenomenon which has been monopolised and perverted with tacked on religious mumbo-jumbo. Which is far mroe evidence than the jedi have that say hates leads to the dark side.

You guys are like creationists- not being able to explain everything doesn't mean your method of inquiry is worthless.

I'm not saying that the Jedi are totally right about the force, just that there are too many unknowns about it to unambiguously be more correct in saying that Midichlorians are any more responsible for it than wearing your hair in the weird braid dohickey is, because everyone who has worn their hair in the weird braid dohickey has become a Jedi.

You have no more evidence about midichlorians than I about stoicism and braid dohickeys. It's all just correlation that has not been studied, because of dark age sciences.

not being able to explain everything doesn't mean your method of inquiry is worthless

This is a non-argument: You say that braid dohickeys, stoicness, and emotionlessness doesn't lead to force powers, because it doesn't explain everything. I say midichlorians might not lead to force powers, since there's not enough science to actually know. Either argument is bolstered equally by it.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I'm not saying that the Jedi are totally right about the force, just that there are too many unknowns about it to unambiguously be more correct in saying that Midichlorians are any more responsible for it than wearing your hair in the weird braid dohickey is, because everyone who has worn their hair in the weird braid dohickey has become a Jedi.

You have no more evidence about midichlorians than I about stoicism and braid dohickeys. It's all just correlation that has not been studied, because of dark age sciences.
IF YOU HAVE MORE MIDICHLORIANS IN YOUR BLOOD YOU ARE ABLE TO MANIFEST STRONGER FORCE POWERS. THAT IS A DIRECT CORRELATION. THIS IS THE MOST STRAIGHTFORWARD OF EVIDENCE.



This is a non-argument: You say that braid dohickeys, stoicness, and emotionlessness doesn't lead to force powers, because it doesn't explain everything. I say midichlorians might not lead to force powers, since there's not enough science to actually know. Either argument is bolstered equally by it.
APART FROM THE FACT THAT I HAVE AN ACTUAL DIRECT CORRELATION BEHIND MY ARGUMENT AND YOU HAVE THE NONSENSE RAMBLINGS OF A FROG MAN WHO LETS CHILDREN BE MURDERED BECAUSE HE WANTS TO GO SMOKE WOOKIE JOINTS.

[rpgdemon]

IF YOU HAVE MORE MIDICHLORIANS IN YOUR BLOOD YOU ARE ABLE TO MANIFEST STRONGER FORCE POWERS. THAT IS A DIRECT CORRELATION. THIS IS THE MOST STRAIGHTFORWARD OF EVIDENCE.

If a magnet is more powerful than another, it has more pieces of metal attached to it. Do the pieces of metal make the magnet strong?

Maybe it does to your dark age sciences. :smug:

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Anakin had way more midichlorians than Yoda but Yoda was a way more powerful Jedi than he was.

[Arcanum]

(and because the female officers were required to wear skirts to accentuate their gams)

An obvious prerequisite to any Utopian Society.

[Locke cole]

Anakin had way more midichlorians than Yoda but Yoda was a way more powerful Jedi than he was.

Yoda also had several centuries of practice in using his midichlorians. Anakin still had to work with a puny Tatooinian lifetime.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Yoda also had several centuries of practice in using his midichlorians. Anakin still had to work with a puny Tatooinian lifetime.

Hundreds of years of experience won't make a magnet any stronger.

[Locke cole]

And having a high Magic stat doesn't help if you haven't learned all the best spells yet.

[rpgdemon]

So, pretty much, without additional information, this argument is at a standstill?

[CABAL49]

No because as Smarty pointed out, they have a way of measuring midaclhorians and how it is a pointed out in the movie to directly relate to force power.

[Locke cole]

Well, Smarty was also saying that midichlorians are what the Jedi call the Force; you use said microoganisms to manifest the powers, and that the invisible field that binds everything together is so much fundamentalist babble.

If I've misinterpreted the argument in this paraphrasing, I aplogize.

This whole thing makes me wonder why you never see any Jedi Knights questioning the whole midichlorian thing. I mean, presumably you don't get a seat on the Masters' Council if you doubt the existence of the Force as a moral entity, but surely there are some Padawans or Knights who are skeptical about the source of their magical powers.

Having said that, I'll bet there's about... 6 EU things I don't know about that explore just that, but I only really have two EU novesl; that one with the planet with a half poisonous atmosphere, and the one about a smuggler failing to kill Darth Maul.

[Krylo]

No because as Smarty pointed out, they have a way of measuring midaclhorians and how it is a pointed out in the movie to directly relate to force power.

On the other hand. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation)

I mean, Lucas was basically entirely trying to say that midichlorians = the force, but that's incredibly dumb when taken along with the full set of six movies, from force ghosts to magic trees, to any and all teachings on how to use it.

As such it's probably best to just point out that the only thing ACTUALLY said was that a high midichlorian count is indictive of a heavy ability to use the force, and that causation, much less direction of causation, is never actually stated.

Because otherwise everything is stupid.

Kind of like if we just take Lucas at his word that Jedi are good, and wiping out the darkside entirely is actually what brought balance to the force (Vader killing Palpatine and doing a heel face turn before his death), etc. etc. Or, more concisely, Star Wars is best enjoyed with as much death of the author as possible.

[rpgdemon]

No because as Smarty pointed out, they have a way of measuring midaclhorians and how it is a pointed out in the movie to directly relate to force power.

They're related, but they never tested how or why they're related. They just said, "Oh look, things with force power have these", and left it at that.

See again: Magnets and metal.

[CABAL49]

Because otherwise everything is stupid.



But in the end, Lucas got the final word on it and whether anyone likes it or not, Midachlorians is indicative of force ability.

They're related, but they never tested how or why they're related. They just said, "Oh look, things with force power have these", and left it at that.

See again: Magnets and metal.

And we know how magnets work. Like if the magnet can lift more metal, then it is probably a stronger magnet than one that can't lift a sewing needle.

http://youtu.be/MfDmu4f8l8I

Well, Smarty was also saying that midichlorians are what the Jedi call the Force; you use said microoganisms to manifest the powers, and that the invisible field that binds everything together is so much fundamentalist babble.

If I've misinterpreted the argument in this paraphrasing, I aplogize.

This whole thing makes me wonder why you never see any Jedi Knights questioning the whole midichlorian thing. I mean, presumably you don't get a seat on the Masters' Council if you doubt the existence of the Force as a moral entity, but surely there are some Padawans or Knights who are skeptical about the source of their magical powers.

Jedi take people to be trained when they are young kids. So if I had to guess I would say indoctrination.

[Krylo]

But it's not 1965, Cabal. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author)

[CABAL49]

But it's not 1965, Cabal. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_Author)

The argument is that movies trump everything else. George Lucas got the final word on the movies. Therefore he gets the final say on what the force is.

Edit: This is hardly the firs unpopular thing George Lucas has done in the movies. Go watch the movies right now and tell me that Han shot first.

[Krylo]

He said, IN THE ACTUAL MOVIES, the midichlorians speak to the force.

Not that they are the force, or that they cause the force as Smarty was arguing.

Any intent or anything he said outside the movies doesn't matter, unless it's the early 1960s or earlier. And last I checked it's 2013.

Also I swear to god if you bring up G canon I will hunt you down and murder you in your sleep.

[Krylo]

Edit: This is hardly the firs unpopular thing George Lucas has done in the movies. Go watch the movies right now and tell me that Han shot first.

Okay you were backing smarty here right?

'Cause if so I have no idea what this has to do with anything, as what Smarty is actually arguing (midichlorians = force, there is nothing mystical about it) isn't at all what is stated in the movies (rewatch your clip). That Lucas clearly meant for that to be the case doesn't make it so because of the theory of literary critique I had linked.

None of that has anything to do with how popular or unpopular Lucas's decisions are, nor does it have anything to do with whether Han or Greedo shot first.

If you somehow misunderstood what Smarty (or everyone else) was arguing, then uh... well, we should stop talking past each other.

Also, and unrelated: I'm pretty sure I can find the original cut somewhere, and if it weren't so much effort I totally would and link it and smug face at you just for funsies.

[Krylo]

Wait wait, but lets go deeper.

Qui-Gon Jin doesn't even realize that Toydarians are force resistant when he attempts to force persuade him (ed. Watto).

He obviously doesn't actually know everything there is to know about the force and how it works, regardless of how skilled he is (or isn't) in actually using it, and thus he's an unreliable narrator, so anything he says about the midichlorians can basically be ignored as the ramblings of an uneducated man.

But man, no, lets not even stop there, lets go back a few pages in this thread to when Smarty was arguing the Jedi Council are all tied up in unnecessary mysticism and actually don't know anything about how the force actually works.

Lets assume he's right.

The entire Jedi Council is now an unreliable narrator.

Everything any of them said about midichlorians is now up for debate. Basically the midichlorians no longer exist outside of the item used by Qui-Gon to measure Anakin's midichlorian count.

BUT, the jedi are an anti-science cabal of religious crazy people (by Smarty's argument, and by extension your own (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1221393&postcount=100)). If we accept this argument, then we can go further yet:

Midichlorians closely mirror a thing that actually exists in the real world. Mitochondria. Which are responsible for cellular energy.

What Qui-Gon really measured was Anakin's mitochondrial count, and, in the half-broken science of Star Wars, a higher mitochondria count = greater cellular energy, and a greater amount of energy allows a jedi to put more juice into his attempts to manipulate the force.

Like a higher charisma stat for a D&D sorceror.

This Cellular Energy is not the source of the Force, but merely an aid in the usage of it.

Edit: The 'power' argument really works without even removing Midichlorians from the picture. They aid in its use, but they are not the source.

Edit 2: We can still go deeper though, and suggest that the causal relationshipe between Midichlorians and the force is reversed from what the council thinks, and that midichlorians simply move into the cells of people who are force sensitive because they're force parasites.


All of these interpretations are equally valid as they all rely only upon what we've seen in the movies.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The entire jedi council is an unreliable narrator- that has been my argument all along. And like aside from the whole force thing- the combined achievements of the jedi council over the movies (failing to see the most powerful sith lord in history right under their noses when a simple blood test of the senators or force detection (which they say they can do but probably can't) should have found him, or even any basic detective work or like going "who provides massively from this war? Nobody but Palpatine who is suddenly acting real evil- let's check him out- oh wait we did that and we put our most corruptible single jedi on to it instead of like a team of 100 of them), they provide not even token resistance to this galatic war murdering billions for no actual reason, they fail to see that Anakin is suddenly evil as fuck, they preach a lot about compassion and restraint and then just go and murder everybody. Like what do the jedis accomplish? Maybe instead of sitting in their palace all the time talking about how they have compassion and protect the universe they should fucking do it- before the empire the galaxy is rife with slavery, with corruption, with crime, with rich fucks- jedi don't give a shit, as long as they have their gilded palace and their bullshit belief system.
The "light-side" crushes emotion, it crushes passion, it crushes the need to fight injustice, it promotes passivity. The jedi are pretty much exact analogues of the early modern church- they preach that they defend all mankind while selling a dream to those people that actively subverts their chance of fixing their lot (turn the other cheek, give unto caesar, lust and passion sends you to hell, anger leads to the dark side) and getting propped up by the people whose position in life they support.

What I'm saying is you can't trust a single thing they say. What we can trust is that we know there is at least 1 physical manifestation of force useage ability in creatures. We don't know what it does or how it works, if it manipulates a vast field called "the force", if it manifests the force phenomenon it self, if it is merely a marker of something else that manifests the force- but we have no other clue to how the force works apart from unquantifiable, unempirical hoodoo which relies on anecdotes. We should trust the one data point that we do have as the place to start further research. We are nowhere near the final stop but we know where to start. It could totally be that it is like a high charisma score but if you study the midichlorians you will find this out. And within 20 years we will be force lifting planets and force teleporting because rational empirical testing of the midichlorians will allow far greater progress than handspun recipes handed down over thousands of years without question.

[Krylo]

Gonna be honest.

Basically agree with most of that.

Like the Jedi being evil, whether through purpose or incompetence, is another thing that I prescribe to.

Except Mace Windu. Mace Windu was baller.

Edit: Well up to the bit where science would end up making the force better, but only because in my head canon I'm going with the force parasites thing, where studying them would just reveal they're a good indicator of force potential, because more swarm to the richer feeding spots, but not much else.

Mostly because I like my magic to be magic, unless it's already science.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Mace Windu was cool because he got angry, he was just going to straight up murder Palpatine because that's what you should do, he got shit done.
In my head the force is like a an extra field/dimension on the universe which the midichlorians can interact with but normal cells can't.

[Locke cole]

Wait, but if we can't trust what that Jedi and Sith say, and they're the only ones who talk about midichlorians, then how can we say midichlorians are a trustworthy data point?

Granted, either way, midichlorians are the thing to study. Even if it turns out they're bunk, that's new info.

A willing Jedi test subject would be very good for this sort of thing. Take a midichlorian count before and after a display of force powers. Check to see if there's any change in body heat during the use of a power. Have him levitate an object in a controlled environment, and check for vibrations, electromagnetic waves, etc, so you can see what sort of physical component there is to the levitation.

[Geminex]

I'm pretty sure that if the jedi catch you doing that they murder you.

[Locke cole]

What about Luke, then?

Wait, Obi-Wan never told him about his midichlorians.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Luke didn't use the force- he was just really really high on Dagobah shrooms the whole time.

[Locke cole]

Including when he was on Hoth?

[Professor Smarmiarty]

That was just snow resonance

[rpgdemon]

Edit 2: We can still go deeper though, and suggest that the causal relationshipe between Midichlorians and the force is reversed from what the council thinks, and that midichlorians simply move into the cells of people who are force sensitive because they're force parasites.

This is what I'm saying about the magnets thing. The force power is the magnetism, and the midichlorians are bits of metal attracted to the magnets for whatever reason. They don't CAUSE the force power, no more than the metal surrounding a magnet causes it to be more powerful. They just indicate force power.

And, there's nothing in canon to back up in the slightest that midichlorians = force power. They're just around in people who are powerful in the force, and thus serve as an indicator.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Your magnet analogy only works if magnets only worked when you were real angry at them or real compassionate at them.

[Sifright]

So hulk magnets or Love magnets?

That would cause some reaaaal problems

[synkr0nized]

Qui-Gon Jin doesn't even realize that Toydarians are force resistant when he attempts to force persuade him (ed. Watto).

He obviously doesn't actually know everything there is to know about the force and how it works, regardless of how skilled he is (or isn't) in actually using it, and thus he's an unreliable narrator, so anything he says about the midichlorians can basically be ignored as the ramblings of an uneducated man.

I'm a fan of the idea that he's just a rambling drunk and not really much of a Jedi.



Also still pretty :/ that folks will have to pay for access to any homosexual content and STILL aren't getting SGR.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I try not to think too hard about Qui Gonn Jinn and the plot of episode 1. Cause the gaping nonsensery while ruin the magic.

[Sifright]

I try not to think too hard about Qui Gonn Jinn and the plot of episode 1. Cause the gaping nonsensery while ruin the magic.

Yea, I mean they should just made the entire film about Jar jar :3:

[Locke cole]

Jar Jar's Midichlorian Adventures.