50,000 Elvis Fans

[Nique]

Media can, in general, be gauged as being 'good' or at least worthwhile by the amount of public interest in it, but only on the condition that there are fringe elements in the masses that totally obsess over it. Like, Lord of the Rings was pretty great and you could tell it was because everyone saw it and fantasy nerds LARPed that shit. Everyone saw Micheal Bay's Transformers, but for anyone who actually was still thinking about the original Transformers, those films pretty much just made their eyes bleed.

This is probably not true but I feel like it could be a good rule of thumb. If one of the next, like, 5 posts isn't Smarty or Lumenskir with some incredibly contentious examples to the contrary, I will be pretty disappointed.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Lord of the Rings were terrible films though.
If you are going to troll me, at least make me work for my counter examples. F, must try harder.

[Nique]

What's funny is that I was just reading an old thread where you were actually saying that LotR sucks so, knowing that, I hypothetically could totally be trolling you.

I'm not though! I thought about using another example but figured LotR was a film you would rate as worth seeing, even if not necessarily good.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

If you want a blank 3 hours in which to contemplate a new direction in your life or do your taxes then I would rate seeing it.
One could plausiably make the argument that it has cinematic value from like a technical standpoint which I would agree with but to get this you really only need to watch like a 30 minute stretch and not the whole film.

[Lumenskir]

Media can, in general, be gauged as being 'good' or at least worthwhile by the amount of public interest in it, but only on the condition that there are fringe elements in the masses that totally obsess over it.
I might be misreading this, but is the basic thesis that you can look to the fanbase of a particular work to help determine the worth of the work?

Because I think under the conditions you set up (broad popular interest + incredible depth of interest in pockets of the broader public) you would have to recognize Twilight as one of the most 'worthwhile' pieces of media out there/ever, seeing as it is not only incredibly popular but also has subsections of fanaticism that go on to create even more 'worthwhile' media (see: Twilight fanfiction -> 50 Shades -> 50 Shades fanfiction).

Now, if you divorce the whole thing from the word 'good'/get rid of trying to imply that the media itself has inherent artistic value that can be estimated based on who consumes it, I think I could get behind the sentiment for a given definition of 'worthwhile'. Like, regardless of what you think about Twilight's artistic worth, there is some value in looking at what its massive popularity says about the people who read it/the culture in which it was produced, or somesuch.

[Nique]

We could definitely divorce the theory from the idea that the media has artistic value. But like, Twilight entertained people, clearly, which is """"good"""""???

I feel like there might be enough of a wedge between Transformers, which was not just awful but also boring, and Twilight, that it still kind of fits within this framework.

[Sifright]

This is probably not true but I feel like it could be a good rule of thumb. If one of the next, like, 5 posts isn't Smarty or Lumenskir with some incredibly contentious examples to the contrary, I will be pretty disappointed.

Lord of the Rings were terrible films though.
If you are going to troll me, at least make me work for my counter examples. F, must try harder.

I might be misreading this, but is the basic thesis that you can look to the fanbase of a particular work to help determine the worth of the work?

Because I think under the conditions you set up (broad popular interest + incredible depth of interest in pockets of the broader public) you would have to recognize Twilight as one of the most 'worthwhile' pieces of media out there/ever, seeing as it is not only incredibly popular but also has subsections of fanaticism that go on to create even more 'worthwhile' media (see: Twilight fanfiction -> 50 Shades -> 50 Shades fanfiction).

Now, if you divorce the whole thing from the word 'good'/get rid of trying to imply that the media itself has inherent artistic value that can be estimated based on who consumes it, I think I could get behind the sentiment for a given definition of 'worthwhile'. Like, regardless of what you think about Twilight's artistic worth, there is some value in looking at what its massive popularity says about the people who read it/the culture in which it was produced, or somesuch.


I'm impressed Nique.

[stefan]

Everyone saw Micheal Bay's Transformers, but for anyone who actually was still thinking about the original Transformers, those films pretty much just made their eyes bleed.

Bay's Transformers was a very well done satire of American Hyperreality and The Manchild Generation, though, and has a frankly insane amount of details that build toward this fact.

[Magus]

Only if we agree that it is an accidental satire. If such a thing is possible by definition.

[Nique]

Bay's Transformers was a very well done satire of American Hyperreality and The Manchild Generation, though, and has a frankly insane amount of details that build toward this fact.

But Scott Pilgrim pulled this off intentionally, and in addition made it a way more palatable & enjoyable experience.

[stefan]

Only if we agree that it is an accidental satire. If such a thing is possible by definition.

Do you think the juxtaposition of military force's uselessness with video game imagery was accidental? Do you think Sam's gradual dehumanization over the trilogy was accidental? Do you think the irony of Decepticons minimizing casualties and openly displaying themselves while autobots hide their nature and cause vast collateral damage was accidental? Do you, sir, think that giving Megatron a vagina as a commentary on social feminization was accidental?

But Scott Pilgrim pulled this off intentionally, and in addition made it a way more palatable & enjoyable experience.

Scott Pilgrim was "more palatable" because it was afraid to take the satire to its necessary grandiosity.

[Aldurin]

Do you, sir, think that giving Megatron a vagina as a commentary on social feminization was accidental?

Clearly I'm not following Transformers closely enough or I'm following it from far enough away.

[Krylo]

Do you think the juxtaposition of military force's uselessness with video game imagery was accidental? Do you think Sam's gradual dehumanization over the trilogy was accidental? Do you think the irony of Decepticons minimizing casualties and openly displaying themselves while autobots hide their nature and cause vast collateral damage was accidental? Do you, sir, think that giving Megatron a vagina [. . .] was accidental?

Yes.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The racism/sexism was 100% intentional I'm pretty sure.

[Nique]

The racism/sexism was 100% intentional I'm pretty sure.

I guess it depends on what you mean by intentional. They do intend to do those things but the intent is also to pretend that those things are not sexist or racist and just good clean American fun. ::V:

[Professor Smarmiarty]

By intentional I mean "fuck michael bay"

[Krylo]

Well, what I'm going for is you can't really call it a satire when basically everything he's done (that I'm aware of, at least) has been pandering to the very things you're saying he's now satirizing.

Like, if Jonathon Swift was actually a guy who went and braised and roasted children and ate them, and was known for doing so, and then wrote A Modest Proposal, I don't think anyone would be incorrect to think that maybe it was serious.

[Lumenskir]

Well, what I'm going for is you can't really call it a satire when basically everything he's done (that I'm aware of, at least) has been pandering to the very things you're saying he's now satirizing.
Theoretically, he could be a frustrated auteur, but never got the opportunity to make the movies he actually wanted to make, and so he become so fed up with being forced to cowtow to the base desires of his audience that he created Transformers as a way to subtly mock that same audience by giving them an outsized and satirical version of what they want.

I say theoretically because I'm not sure Bay could adequately read that sentence, much less embody it.