Pat's Mom vs Barry - A discussion on TBFP and GameGrumps.

[Aldurin]

So that we don't wake the Admin from his thousand-year slumber, I'm taking the liberty of moving the Game Grumps discussion to its own thread, so that the internet crap thread can resume crapping as normal.

Two Best Friends Play (http://www.youtube.com/user/TheSw1tcher)

Game Grumps (http://www.youtube.com/user/GameGrumps)

So people can reassert their opinions here (except Snake, who isn't allowed to have an opinion of Two Best Friends overall until he watches the Silent Hill: Downpour and Heavy Rain full playthroughs.)

I'm of the stance that Two Best Friends is better than actual television in 99% of most cases, they're organically enjoying/raging over a game of variable quality and it's an experience that's always worth watching. They know when to pull the other person back from over the line and it almost feels like more than a playthrough sometimes (Heavy Rain best captures this, as you're not getting a better experience from the game if you're not listening to Matt and Pat tear into its weak points).

Game Grumps on the other hand (Jontron and Egoraptor for those of you who don't have internet) feels very weak in comparison. It's good that they're trying, but they overdo it and often come across as obnoxious or disconnected. If anything it establishes that ad hoc humor is not their best, though they're still great in their other works (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ7EiQAJnZA). Maybe it just aggravates me when Jon starts screaming into the microphone in a desperate attempt to be funny, or when they fail to bail each other out of being braindead in a segment of a game and then proceed to blame the game because they actively avoided the hint box that would have saved them 20 minutes. Their whole attempt comes across as very amateur, and I'm afraid that they won't address the rough spots in their performance as they continue on.

But that's just my opinion (and you know about how opinions are on the internet :rolleyes:), so give/restate your thoughts on these shows.

Pat's Mom would totally win.

[Solid Snake]

So people can reassert their opinions here (except Snake, who isn't allowed to have an opinion of Two Best Friends overall until he watches the Silent Hill: Downpour and Heavy Rain full playthroughs.)

I'm not a Silent Hill fan and I refuse to spoil Heavy Rain, so that's not going to happen anytime soon.

But since my opinion is so valued, I'll just say I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. I don't really see the Grumps and TBFP experiences as comparable. From a viewer's perspective, I search them out for completely different reasons.

TBFP are the 'professionals.' I respect them more but I don't really relate to them as much. Because Machinima only cuts and pastes their 'best' material in a series of snippets, I admire their wit but find the nature of their camaraderie unrelatable. My main knock against TBFP is really that they just don't sound like me when I'm playing a game. They're hysterical, they're comedians, and they clearly know what they're doing. I'll concede that I've laughed more with the best TBFP episodes. And if they really do come up with that stuff on the fly, then they have real talent. Like, seriously, if they can quote all those other TV shows / movies / games and integrate that material so effortlessly at just the right moment so consistently without a pre-written script, then they deserve all the kudos in the universe.

Grumps isn't about churning out maximum laughs. If you're watching Grumps in the hopes that you're going to bust your gut like you would with TBFP, you're doing it wrong. More often than not, Arin and Jon aren't trying to make their viewers laugh. The few times they've really made an effort to concoct laughs tend to fall flat on their faces. When they do have genuinely humorous moments, it's spontaneous and unexpected.

That all being said what I appreciate more about Arin and Jon is how their dialogue and the nature of their friendship better match the kinds of cooperative and competitive gameplay outings I'm used to. To me, it feels more organic, in large part because the overarching goal isn't to make me laugh. It's just two good friends goofin' off while playing vidjagaems. The silliness works for me.

Still, let's be blunt here: Both groups of guys are pretty damn misogynistic, racist and homophobic. Really reinforces the worst in terms of how unchecked privilege can make white guys sound like real shitholes. I don't think they're awful people (if I did think that I wouldn't watch) but I do think they're utterly blind to how offensive they can be when they stereotype (insert minority group here.)

I'm not sure why so many white heterosexual guys seem to believe that casual shittin' the breeze with friends requires mocking minorities, like that's just part of the prototypical hangin' out process, but both TBFP and Grumps buy into that myth a bit too much for my liking.

EDIT: I think it's funny that we have two different ideas as to which group's "trying too hard," though. You give TBFP the benefit of the doubt and think Ego exaggerates the shouting for humor's sake; I probably give Grumps a bit more the benefit of the doubt (their casual motif just works better there with me) but find elements like the repetitive "AMERICA!" obsession and Matt playin' dumb on TBFP pandering for the easy laughs.

[Aldurin]

I'm basing most of my logic for TBFP on the stuff on their actual channel, which gives a lot more depth view of them than the Machinima episodes show, so I can't really argue much of your points since they're based off of that small slice of their work.

As for the flaws you're calling them out on: Yes they're misogynistic in humor, though they don't prattle on about real-life experiences where they be that way (and it's pretty hilarious when they purposely misunderstand female anatomy). It's bad, but not horrible. Racist, I don't see that, since yes they recognize that race exists, but they don't actively mock it in a detrimental way (if you're talking about their friend, Woolie, most of the stuff toward him is about a lot of stuff irrelevant to race, like the state of his apartment, and his unusual interests and the fact that he and Pat can't get along if Matt isn't there to babysit). Homophobic, I don't see it really, if you could point out some examples to help me out on this then that would help. The closest I've seen to that is times when they're more or less backing off of a subject because they don't want to feed the MattxPat shippers and fanporn (which is fine if they feel uncomfortable about people voicing encouragement for a relationship that they don't want, I mean Pat probably doesn't even have the rack size that Matt wants in a partner), and doesn't come across as straight-up homophobia to me.

I won't contest it for the Game Grumps, since the line they cross is almost faded from them stamping on it.

Apologies if I offended you for that comment about your opinion, I meant to make a point that Machinima-only Two Best Friends is a shallow look into what the full Two Best Friends is with the content on their own channel. It's sorta like the difference between just watching them through a window occasionally whenever they make a lot of ruckus, and actually being there in that room for whenever anything else happens. I may have come across as brash.

[Bells]

Both do improv. TBFP does a few bits that are pre-scripted (and hilarious, See Assassin`s Creed Broterhood for an example) and their improv humor is veeeeeeeeeery loose (but they call each other on it when a joke is "terrible" or "too much", but they just laugh it off and don`t step on it again).

Pat and Matt put on a very good show, cause their stuff is genuine and lay back. There is a bit of exaggeration, i'm sure, but it's not forced cause they are not entertainers. They are gamers. Hardly any one knows how they even look cause they don't put out their faces like that. And at one point both had girlfriends, right now i'm only sure Matt has one. and they have played with them too

Plus, they really focus on new games, and they have no problem calling Triple A games about their bullshit while still enjoying the fun that can be had with it... and then sometimes they jump in on Xbox Arcade to have terrible times. But if you watch older episodes, you can see they took sometime to hit their groove and work off their humor out of self-referential content ( Matt's Bomb Ass Axe )

Then, you have Game Grumps. Which i still think are REALLY new, but are composed of two through and through showmen. They were doing other stuff and con circuits way before going onto Game Grumps and their goal is to Make People laugh with them and of them. Plus, they look for a bit more nostalgic feel and frustrating games on purpose (TBFP used to do more of that on past seasons)

They still have room to grown and find their better slice of humor, but they are into their stride. Both channels have some REALLY off color humor moments, but that notion is not lost on the people making the jokes...

And yeah, Grumps is less scripted. But they exaggerate and put out a show on purpose though, cause that`s who these two are. That's an stage for them. That's where they create in-house jokes and shirt ideas and their bread and butter pretty much...

TBFP is going to it's what? 6 year? Grumps hardly had 1. But Matt and Pat grew into their show, while Jon and Arin came to theirs with a lot of baggage ready. Those things also factor in.

Gladly i think there is enough room for both shows. And you`ll only see if Grumps really have staying power once they finish their sonic 06 playthrough, cause that's their main event (and it's going to be for a while) . Gotta see what they do next to see if they can keep up... they talked about doing Super Metroid, which by itself could be another 10-15 videos, but being a GOOD game and a lot quieter, would require much more from them to be enjoyable.

[Arcanum]

Just want to point out that there's an extra layer to Matt's "America" joke, and that being that TBFP actually live in Quebec. But it one of the videos on their Sw1tcher channel, I have no idea which video, Matt points out that it was meant to be a lame gag but all the fans went apeshit with it (along with "-insert random name- is the Origami Killer" because that shit was repeated in the comments for nearly every video for months).

Also, Snake it's not Machinima that edits their videos. Matt and Pat do that on their own. Personally I like their full playthroughs a lot better than most of their short Machinima episodes, but Machinima helped them be where they are now, and is the main source of their youtube income, so it's understandable why they keep up with it.

Also if anyone wants proof that the vast majority (like, 99%) of TBFP is improv and non-scripted, just watch their "Adventures" animated videos. I think the videos are pretty gosh darn awful because they're following a script and Matt and Pat aren't very good voice actors.

Oh and I'm not a Silent Hill fan either (I have never played a single Silent Hill game, and I know nothing about the lore) but I'm still going through their playthrough of Downpour right now. While the playthrough has its boring moments (both game-wise and Matt&Pat-wise) there are some pretty great ones in there too.


On the subject of Game Grumps, I've watched a few of their Sonic '06 episodes and their match of Mario Party 8(?) and their playthrough of the Dead Space 3 demo (which was a terrible video thanks to them beating that bird joke to death through the entire thing). I don't really have much of an opinion on them. Their videos are basically proof of "just because you are good at comedy doesn't mean you're good at improv." But in order to mask that they just crank everything up to 11, and it's not really my cup of tea. I do hope they improve over time, but until then their videos just aren't entertaining enough for me to watch on a regular basis.

And Bells, if they do Super Metroid it depends on how good they are at the game. I mean, it could end up like Woolie playing Metroid Fusion. And that kind of play would be ripe for Game Grumps' style of raging at each other.

[Ryong]

I'm with Aldurin and Arcanum here.

Although I'll admit TBFP sometimes have "shit how can you be this bad" moments that feel forced. Everything else's pretty great.

[POS Industries]

TBFP spawned Fighterpedia and Scrublords.

HEY I'M GRUMP ain't got shit.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Still, let's be blunt here: Both groups of guys are pretty damn misogynistic, racist and homophobic. Really reinforces the worst in terms of how unchecked privilege can make white guys sound like real shitholes. I don't think they're awful people (if I did think that I wouldn't watch) but I do think they're utterly blind to how offensive they can be when they stereotype (insert minority group here.)

Well, I don't know how Jon can make white people seem bad when he's Iranian (although that doesn't mean he couldn't be racist I'm mostly just being persnickety).

But what I WOULD say in their defense is that you shouldn't take most of what they say to heart. Maybe they aren't thinking when they say it, but I don't think they ACTUALLY mean a lot of the things they say, they're either just not thinking about their words or purposely overplaying. At times they even attempt to censor themselves, making me think its mostly just overdoing it/not thinking about it. That's still bad but I don't think it makes someone a bigot.

[Solid Snake]

But what I WOULD say in their defense is that you shouldn't take most of what they say to heart. Maybe they aren't thinking when they say it, but I don't think they ACTUALLY mean a lot of the things they say, they're either just not thinking about their words or purposely overplaying. At times they even attempt to censor themselves, making me think its mostly just overdoing it/not thinking about it. That's still bad but I don't think it makes someone a bigot.

I'm not so sure that "misogyny is so culturally ingrained that misogynists don't even know when they're being misogynistic" is much of a defense for misogynistic behavior.

And, mind you, I like Game Grumps. Hell, half the shit I've gotten in this thread is due to the fact that I dared to prefer it (slightly) over TBFP, another show I actually like.

I can't believe that I'm about to link to Jimquisition to make a point, because I dislike Jim Sterling far more than I dislike Jon, Arin, Matt or Pat. Sterling annoys the shit out of me, and you should not take this as a wholehearted endorsement of his views on most subjects. But if you replace "games" with "comedians who make gaming videos" while watching this video, (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/6734-Accepting-the-Isms) I think it might prove instructive.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I'm not so sure that "misogyny is so culturally ingrained that misogynists don't even know when they're being misogynistic" is much of a defense for misogynistic behavior.

Honestly I haven't heard them be misogynistic a lot. Like, they make race-based jokes or whatever rather often, so you could make a case there, but I don't really recall a lot of sexism on their behalf.

[Bells]

funny thing about Jim Steerling is that i dislike his shows at the Escapist, however, his appearances at the Escapist Expo made me like the guy a whole lot.

I just really dislike his act, but the person seems to be super fun and charismatic and a good sport even...

[Doc ock rokc]

TBFP is my favorite out of the two. Don't get me wrong Game grumps can make for some hilarious moments but Matt and Pat know their best work is unscripted natural reactions to the game while The Grumps seem to "come up with" lines before they say it.

I will say this though each of the two are best when they are in a poorly made or just plain bad game. I finished TBFP Eternal Darkness the other day and I was thoroughly entertained. Grumps Play through of Sonic 06 is chocked full of gold material. They are both really really good at doing spontaneous jokes and they both fail utterly at the scripted humor...problem is that Grumps keeps trying to script themselves.

[Solid Snake]

I will say this though each of the two are best when they are in a poorly made or just plain bad game. I finished TBFP Eternal Darkness the other day and I was thoroughly entertained. Grumps Play through of Sonic 06 is chocked full of gold material. They are both really really good at doing spontaneous jokes and they both fail utterly at the scripted humor...problem is that Grumps keeps trying to script themselves.

It's weird that I have the exact opposite impression of whose material is more 'scripted.'

That being said, holy shit, the Grumps are dumb. Dumb as rocks. I love them and all. But SPICY, Grumps. SPICY IS A WORD.

[Aldurin]

It's weird that I have the exact opposite impression of whose material is more 'scripted.'

That being said, holy shit, the Grumps are dumb. Dumb as rocks. I love them and all. But SPICY, Grumps. SPICY IS A WORD.

Watch their full playthroughs already, because as far as this debate you're talking about a very different TBFP.

And yes the Grumps are dumb to the point that I'm now skipping '06 episodes where they'll clearly burn their time running in circles in the same area. The big annoyance is that they don't acknowledge their idiocy, where Matt and Pat relentlessly call out each other on that and they know how to talk without moving the character in circles. I still remember when I played '06, and NOTHING that they've done so far is as much of a brainfuck as the Grumps are trying to make it out to be.

[Ramary]

I still remember when I played '06,


Why.

[Aldurin]

Why.

I don't know, nobody I've talked to has given a medication strong enough for me to forget.

[Solid Snake]

Watch their full playthroughs already, because as far as this debate you're talking about a very different TBFP.


I started yesterday. So far my opinion hasn't changed.
(But then again, my opinion of TBFP has always been positive.)

[Magus]

I thought the Game Grumps running around in circles failing to achieve anything was the point?

[Bells]

There are quite a few people that do what the Grumps do, that is.. to play a game without learning it first and quite often skipping prompts and text and then not knowing what to do...

TBFP has had it`s moments of that, but they actually bother to try and be good and learn the game as they play.

[Aerozord]

I think part of the reason I like TBF is because they are the same niche of nerd as I am. They reference a wide variety of things from early simpsons, adventure time, homestarrunner, various anime, heck even egoraptor. So its the same type of humor I like the most. This is also why I dont find their work all that scripted. These are the kinds of talks and tangents I usually go on when I'm with my own friends.

Oh and I wanted to share the video that got me watching their stuff in the first place
L0cY2NWlddU

[Locke cole]

I think perhaps my favorite sort of TBFP is when they're playing a game that is just really bad. Mostly because there are more moments where the game itself has a way of being as hilarious as their commentary.

Way of the Samurai would be a recent example.