Need some D&D/Tabletop help and/or advice

[Arcanum]

I have a group of (internet) friends that have been kicking around the idea of playing a game of D&D, or other tabletop rpg such as Pathfinder. However there is one "little" problem: none of us have played a tabletop rpg before.

So I've come to you, NPF, to ask for your wisdom in such matters. Where would be a good starting point for a group of complete tabletop noobs? Should we go with the classic D&D or would Pathfinder be the better choice? I've also seen mentioned in a previous D&D thread something about the "FATE" system (also didn't Brian endorse a kickstarter of that a while back?) so what's that all about? When I searched it the only online resource I found for it was a "FUDGE" version.

Also, is it possible to find the required materials (player handbook, monster manual, all that jazz) online, and possibly for free?

I don't know what else I can say here. We are basically going to be diving into this thing blind (sort of, obviously we'll be doing a lot of reading before actually starting) and any advice would be most welcome.

[Menarker]

First, I can assure you that required materials can be found online and "free". Whether that is legal though is another question entirely.

A simple suggestion though might be to seek the help of a GM willing to explain the game and run through something simple for you guys. Basically adding someone to your group who is knows enough of the game to keep things running smoothly as the mediator and to avoid game time from going stale if players are constantly trying to search through the rule-books for rules they haven't fully internalized.
The biggest possibility of failure early on would be for the players to feel bored and frustrated with the system due to constant rule-checking interruptions or arguments before it gets good.

[Azisien]

The biggest possibility of failure early on would be for the players to feel bored and frustrated with the system due to constant rule-checking interruptions or arguments before it gets good.

Though to be sure, if a group of experienced players still aren't having rule-checking interruptions or arguments, you must not be playing right.

Pathfinder would be fine for a first-time RPG, it is similar to the other D&D systems (oft-called D&D 3.75e). The rulebooks are well written. However, it IS more complex than...

D&D 4e. Which is much more first-time friendly. I had to shift my DMing style in 4e because of its differences to D&D 3e and below, but that's something you won't have to deal with! I would recommend 4E. The mechanics are simpler, the "how-to-build-a-character/monster/encounter" guides are clearer, and there's official Wizards online tools to help you build characters, though I think you might have to subscribe (not free).

They all follow the same basic gameplay principles though. If you want to do something, roll a d20, add appropriate modifiers/penalties, determine success/failure/hilarity that ensues.

I was also recommended this website if you're running the campaign online: Roll d20.net (http://roll20.net). The GUI takes some getting used to, but the social integration is pretty good, vs. using an amalgam of other online tools.

[Krylo]

FATAL is the best first RPG.

Just dive right into the most terrible parts, so nothing else can ever hurt you again.

[Satan's Onion]

Fun FATAL ancedote: The creator of FATAL objected to this characterization of the system as "the date rape RPG" (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml) because FATAL has no dating mechanics.

Incidentally, I don't know for certain, but maybe looking through those reviews will help you find something newbie-friendly that's actually offered for free. Tabletop RPGs are a big tent, evidently.

[Steel Shadow]

Tabletops are pretty fun, but it does help to have some experience when you're doing them, especially for the GM. If you want to observe a game before you run something, there's a few played in NPF chat between Thursday and Saturday y'might want to drop in on!

[stefan]

Fate is pretty idiot-proof as it only requires one set of dice and has some pretty simple rules. If you're willing to wait a bit, they're actually releasing a stripped-down version of it called Fate Accelerated that brings it to the point that you can literally generate an entire party of characters in 10 minutes and be off.

[Azisien]

Oh if you wanted to have absolutely no fun at all and come away terribly confused, fatigued, and intrigued, you could try your hand at Mutants and Masterminds 3E.

[stefan]

I honestly wouldn't recommend diving into a crunch-heavy system like DnD for your first tabletop experience, especially if the person game-mastering has no experience with the system. I especially would avoid pathfinder, as it somehow managed to take everything terrible and pointlessly obfuscated in 3.5 DnD and make it worse, with an extra helping of Caster Supremacy bullshit.

In the end, it all depends on the genre you plan to run.

[Arcanum]

A simple suggestion though might be to seek the help of a GM willing to explain the game and run through something simple for you guys. Basically adding someone to your group who is knows enough of the game to keep things running smoothly as the mediator and to avoid game time from going stale if players are constantly trying to search through the rule-books for rules they haven't fully internalized.
Tabletops are pretty fun, but it does help to have some experience when you're doing them, especially for the GM. If you want to observe a game before you run something, there's a few played in NPF chat between Thursday and Saturday y'might want to drop in on!

Yeah we might be snagging a GM off /r/lfg (http://www.reddit.com/r/lfg) who is willing to put up with a bunch of noobs.

And Steel, do you have specific times when some games are played? Because a friend and I will more than likely pop in to ogle spectate.


Pathfinder would be fine for a first-time RPG, it is similar to the other D&D systems (oft-called D&D 3.75e). The rulebooks are well written. However, it IS more complex than...

D&D 4e. Which is much more first-time friendly. I had to shift my DMing style in 4e because of its differences to D&D 3e and below, but that's something you won't have to deal with! I would recommend 4E. The mechanics are simpler, the "how-to-build-a-character/monster/encounter" guides are clearer, and there's official Wizards online tools to help you build characters, though I think you might have to subscribe (not free).

They all follow the same basic gameplay principles though. If you want to do something, roll a d20, add appropriate modifiers/penalties, determine success/failure/hilarity that ensues.

I was also recommended this website if you're running the campaign online: Roll d20.net (http://roll20.net). The GUI takes some getting used to, but the social integration is pretty good, vs. using an amalgam of other online tools.

Thanks for the advice, we'll look into 4e. And yeah roll20.net was what we were planning on using.

FATAL is the best first RPG.

Just dive right into the most terrible parts, so nothing else can ever hurt you again.

Hmm tempting but...

Fun FATAL ancedote: The creator of FATAL objected to this characterization of the system as "the date rape RPG" (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/14/14567.phtml) because FATAL has no dating mechanics.

I'm gonna go with no ;)

In the end, it all depends on the genre you plan to run.

Classic fantasy stuff is what we're going for. Swords and magic and all that jazz.

[Steel Shadow]

Let's see, games are run off EST time just to sort out timezone confusion, since we have people playing from all over the world. Currently the schedule is:

Thursday, 9 EST - Dresden Files The RPG - Based on the Fate system with some modifications. Fate's a very flexible system, and I find it makes games more based on narrative than number crunching, and it's not too hard to pick up. I GM this one, and it tends to run for anything between 7 to 11 hours. Genre wise this one's modern-day fantasy. Or whatever the term is, I dunno I just work here.

Friday, 10 EST - Anima: Beyond Fantasy - I think this system's been compared to the old Rolemaster systems (which I'm not familiar with, but hey, research!) It's pretty simple to use, you just roll a d100 and add your skill levels. Character creation can take a while to get your head around, but once you're through, it's clean sailing. A hilariously lethal game though, arms have been cut off and heads have been blown up in the first move of combat, on occasion. PheonixFlame is the GM for this one, and the games tend to last for 7 hours again. This one's genre is more of your classic sword and sorcery milarky, although it's actually closer to renaissance than dark ages.

Saturday, 10 EST - Exalted - This one uses the Storyteller system, which means rolling a lot of d10s whenever you take a significant action. It's a high-power level game which ironically breaks down as you get to high level. There's a lot of books to gather and check through if you want to run it, I don't recommend you start off with this one. However, Krylo's been GMing the running game for nearly a year now, and we're just about to enter the grand finale. It might be interesting to watch! Again, tends to run for 7 hours, though honestly we could end up hitting 13. Genre wise this is a more eastern based Swords and Sorcery/Magi-tek mix!

[TheSpacePope]

Pre made adventures can be really handy for first time players. We started with rise of the runelords. Theyare available online and you can buy them for 13 bucks an adventure path. ( there are usually 5 of these so the completed ones are a better buy.) I'm gm ing a shattered star path currently, pm me if you want some more info. Also its helpful to pick racial archetypes to stick with since there are like a million. One big problem we had in the begining was having a reason for the characters to be together, so it helps to have a little something of a team building exersize to let your players explore play styles. Are you going to play or gm?

[tacticslion]

I especially would avoid pathfinder, as it somehow managed to take everything terrible and pointlessly obfuscated in 3.5 DnD and make it worse, with an extra helping of Caster Supremacy bullshit.

This... is patently untrue. Point in fact, casters have been very nerfed in Pathfinder compared to 3.5.

The big "boost" I've seen many take as Caster Supremacy is a) you can ignore some prerequisites by adding a +5 to the craft DC (which is not a lot for those who don't know), b) it no longer costs experience points, and c) grant them special class features they didn't used to have.

The trick is that now you don't have to be a caster to craft magic items (you did in 3.X) and everyone gets class features that they didn't have in 3.X (and usually they're better than the casters' stuff), so that's not really a factor.

Also Barbarians are, like, the most powerful class possible in battle in PF.

ANYWAY, D&D-type systems (of which Pathfinder is one) are generally quite difficult to master across all their editions. That said, pretty much all of Pathfinder is available for free online in multiple locations:
* The PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/) (this is the official one run by the company that makes Pathfinder, but it's organized by book instead of by rules, and isn't completely user-friendly)
* d20pfsrd.com (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/) (this is the most user-friendly and complete of the sites organized by rules, but because it sells stuff it was legally required to change many of the names of prestige classes and the like to avoid problems, though they're all on good terms with each other)
{NOTE: they have a sister site (http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/home) that has all of the original/"official" names for the thing changed on the official site, but it's a bit of a pain to go through two sites and their different organizations}
* Archives of Nethys (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/) (this is organized similarly the d20pfsrd, but isn't as complete, and is more user-friendly than the "official" PRD)

Strangely, recently I'm waxing nostalgic for the 3rd edition and 3.5 edition stuff. I think that each makes a better world (as everything on a character sheet actually does exist and can be affected in-game, even if it's very obscure what, exactly, it is).

Also, probably one of the easiest systems to learn and run was West End Games' Star Wars Role Playing Game, which is actually kind of easily changed to any setting by changing the names/looks of whatever a given rule is talking about.

For example: change lightsaber to "sword" and that skill use to "swordfighting" and you've got a pretty easy change made.
(Other examples off the top of my head: "Gamorean" becomes "orc", "blaster" becomes "bow", and "droids" become "golems", though I'm not sure about that last one.)

[Azisien]

Strangely, recently I'm waxing nostalgic for the 3rd edition and 3.5 edition stuff. I think that each makes a better world (as everything on a character sheet actually does exist and can be affected in-game, even if it's very obscure what, exactly, it is).

Yes, I get this, I feel it too actually. Something about my older 3e days just have memories of worlds that felt more alive and real. d20 Modern in some aspects made me feel this too, though it was actively (and often poorly!) trying to simulate the present day, so that's not as surprising.

Anyway, probably just rose-tinted glasses. As for balance in PF, the last campaign I ran that lasted about a year had a really overpowered Alchemist. Seriously, they're nuts. As the DM, I could certainly counter their ONLY weakness (very long range attacks) with encounters that favour that, but the problem became, such encounters could also stomp the whole rest of the party too. Ah well, still good times.