Nintendo or PSP

[Vivi Ornitier]

I'm surprised I never seen one of those yet so i'll make one. Try not to flame (even though this is bound to being a flaming thread and we all know that)

[AerodynamicHair]

Well, I don't really know if they constitute a versus situation. I've heard some specifications of what they're really capable of, and several arguments towards one or the other, but in the end the devices aren't the same, and while they may compete for market share, they really can't compete on technical specs since they're totally different animals.

Though, I have to say, if I have to pick a side, I pick nintendo. The DS has backwards compatibility with older game boy games and the Nintendo backing, which will help with grabbing companies. On the other hand, the PSP has a lot of big deals, and Sony is a pretty big name, too, but it's going to come out with a smaller assortment of games, and most of those could just be Playstation ports.

In the end, I think we're going to have a situation like we have with the console wars, there isn't going to be a clear winner, and both systems are going to sell like mad, but one is just going to have a higher market share while the other one tries to catch up. In my opinion, The DS is going to lead, while the PSP follows. The PSP is going to be very expensive, its going to cost developers alot to create original games for it (which is why I suppose porting is going to happen alot, and while it may be cool to play Need for Speed Underground in a bus-station, I'd rather be playing something more like tetris) and it won't have many games in the beginning. The PSP is like the X-Box of portables. Meanwhile, the DS already has a large library, a neat little gimmick to play with (I expect it will be thrown to menus and level maps instead of anything REALLY innovative), its going to be very cheap, and most likey not too hard to develop for. While the cartridge limits its graphic abilities, it also frees up the developers who don't have to creat console graphics on a portable, so they can make more original games for the system by not spending too much time and money.

Well, that's my rant. I'm going to buy the DS, but in the end I'm only buying it because I know it's going to be cheaper and because technically I already have games for it. Maybe if I got a lot more money, I'd go for the PSP. Heck, I'd get em' both.

[Deathosaurus Wrecks]

actualy, im not gonna vote on this one. i am a nintendo man, so i am going to get the DS when it comes out; but ill probably also get the PSP. considering the fact that i play my GBA more than i do my GameCube or my roommate's PS2, i'm a big fan of portables.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Why do this now...no one has even touched either of the devices (except maybe the one person on the board who went to E3) and we have no basis to vote except on 'which games look the best...'.

And like people have been saying, I'm probably going to buy both, because they both look to be very different and very nice in their own ways. But as for who will lead in the beginning, I don't know. Its really a toss-up to me, because Sony has proven the name of Playstation can sell better than a better system AND without as high 'quality' games initally. But then again, the DS is coming out first and looks to be with at least a good 50-100 games by the time the PSP rolls out.

[BMHadoken]

Well, all I know is that the PSP has movie, music, and game playing, while the DS has that stylus thing and the ability to let you 'picto-chat' with anyone else in the area who has a DS.

I'm going with the PSP, I'm more of a solitary portable player, all the DS's fancy wide area doodads just don't appeal to me, but being able to play my movies and MP3s...priceless...or $250, same difference.

[Fifthfiend]

Is the PSP going to be able to play stuff on DVDs/CDs, or only on that goofy-ass new disc they've got for it?

Playing movies sounds kind of cool, but not if I've got to go and re-buy the ones I already have on DVD.

[h4x.m4g3]

I have to go with the DS. The PSP looks like a solid portable, but with all the extra gooodies packed in the DS I think is going to win over some developers, and in turn sell more. Wireless multiplayer is better then trying to untagle cables all the time. the stylus adds new options of gameplay.

The PSP looks good but its not as innovative.

[Lucas]

portability doesn't scream disc to me. cartridge does. i'd NEVER carry a few discs in my pocket, but used to regularly keep my mario picross, castlevanias and a token mario adventure in my pocket while gamin' on the move. it just seems really stupid to use a disc for a portable, seeing as laser arrays need WAY more power than a simple contact connection. duracell won't mind, but i sure as hell will.

[KefkaTaran]

Fifth: PSP will only be able to play on the mini-disc format they have, as far as I've heard. I don't think they'll be big enough to use CDs or DVDs.

[C-dog]

Face it, the DS looks like a piece of crap, and the PSP looks great. On the other hand, Sony consoles have always been of lousy quality while Nintendo invented hand-helds. Screenshots from the PSP look amazing for a hand-held, while the possibilities for dual screens on the DS seem numerous. It's a toss-up between the two until they're released and we get some real hands-on experience with them.

I'll buy niether because I have no money and never got into the hand-held market anyway.

[Lost in Time]

I am a Nintendo fan, I will get the DS. Sony is not a gaming company, it is an entertainment company, adding DVD's and MP3's to their systems. While Nintendo is pure gaming, which I love. Sure MP3's and DVD's are great, but I already have an MP3 player and I'm not a movie person. (If the PSP added those.) But, I'll be tricked into buying the PSP anyway, but only after the DS.

[MasterOfMagic]

I'll probably end up buying the DS, b/c I'm a diehard Nintendo fan. Plus, they have more experience in the handheld market, and I like the double screen, stylus idea. Even if its just for menus and maps.

[Joseph Pandora]

Im a diehard Nintendo fan as well and I have dicided that for the time being Im going to say DS but if the PSP is something really special Ill get both.

[Omega]

Nintendo all the way
they invented the portable game plus i couldent live with out my mario games
so in closing nintendo started it all and i owe them my support :)
THAT RIGHT OWE!

[MFD]

If I didn't care, I wouldn't choose. It is not a matter of choosing between the two. Unless you are a poor college student.

However, my GBA is beat up, and I didn't buy an SP because it didn't have any new games just for it. My GBA serviced me well. And I think it's time for me to upgrade to DS, and put my GBA on standby for FFCC and LoZ4S+. The PSP just seems to gadgety to me.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Face it, the DS looks like a piece of crap, and the PSP looks great. On the other hand, Sony consoles have always been of lousy quality while Nintendo invented hand-helds. Screenshots from the PSP look amazing for a hand-held, while the possibilities for dual screens on the DS seem numerous. It's a toss-up between the two until they're released and we get some real hands-on experience with them.

I'll buy niether because I have no money and never got into the hand-held market anyway.

Face what. You state it like we all deep inside know it is...when you're the only one who so far has said this.

And what I'm really hoping someone will do with the PSP is somehow make an adapter so you can play DivX and some forms of MPEG. This way I could use the PSP as a portaple (and reletively cheap) on-the-go video device. Oh, watching Anime while standing in lines atconventions would be finally a reality!

And did we have this many die hard Nintendo fans on the board? Wow, they're all coming out!

[Dac]

no ds shall fail miserably and psp as well because a portable system has come out better than both and that is the portable atari 2600 with graphics before our time...well at least my time..

both are going to it the gaming market extremely hard and are going to decimate the wannabes like ngage...both are probably are not going to be battling for dominance considering that both offer very distinct functions that may be suited to different individuals.

[Omega]

fun fact: i heard a rumor ... so come to think of it this isent a ... fact o well back to the rumor i heard that supermario 64 fourplayer will be released for the DS if this is true .... GAME SET AND MATCH DS!

[Xivilized]

They're not something to compare, in my opinion. They are completely different. Though they are both competing and coming out around the same time, people most likely will choose one or the other, not because they're slaves to Sony/Nintendo [well, I suppose some will], but because they find that one has more useful features than the other.

I, for one, think that the DS will be quite good, because this is kind of Nintendo's last chance. If it flops, they're out. Then again, if it does well, then they'll be around for a bit longer, or possibly out do everyone else. That's why I think it will be good; think about how much effort/money Nintendo is putting into this project.

The PSP is Sony's first shot at a handheld, and they have a similair situation as Nintendo. If it flops, they'll have another competitor for a while longer. So, I'm guessing they're spending a lot on this project as well.

I'm not buying either. I can go for a week without videogames, and certainly to a restaruant and back. If I want to play a videogame, I'll wait and play a good one.

I'm done being stupid. :(

[h4x.m4g3]

fun fact: i heard a rumor ... so come to think of it this isent a ... fact o well back to the rumor i heard that supermario 64 fourplayer will be released for the DS if this is true .... GAME SET AND MATCH DS!
It's true you can check it out at nintendo's website, link in a minute.
edit: Here you go straight from the horse's mouth http://www.nintendo.com/e3_2004/ds/ds_softwareSuperMario64.jsp

[Omega]

It's true you can check it out at nintendo's website, link in a minute.
edit: Here you go straight from the horse's mouth http://www.nintendo.com/e3_2004/ds/ds_softwareSuperMario64.jsp

GAME SET AND MATCH!

[Domon]

Im a sony fan all the way. ever since I got my PS1, I was hooked.

[Vivi Ornitier]

Since you since to be so interested in Mario games they are also coming out with a new side-scroller mario. Not much as been released yet though there is a trailer but I can't find it anymore...

[Fifthfiend]

If the PSP lacks the ability to play standard media, its usefulness to me as a media device becomes worthless.

In that event, I go with the DS, because it bugs the crap out of me when portables put the screen between your hands instead of above them.

[h4x.m4g3]

If the PSP lacks the ability to play standard media, its usefulness to me as a media device becomes worthless.

In that event, I go with the DS, because it bugs the crap out of me when portables put the screen between your hands instead of above them.
I agree what's the point of buying two copies of the same thing

Well wouldn't one screen still be between your hands anyway? Even if it is the secondary screen

[Fifthfiend]

Well wouldn't one screen still be between your hands anyway? Even if it is the secondary screen

If it's just maps and shit, I can make an exception. In fact, having maps or inventory lists between your hands almost makes sense, aesthetically speaking.

It just bugs the crap out of me when I have to look between my hands for the game action. When I play on a console, I have my controller somewhere below my line of vision and the TV in front of me. I see no reason why a handheld system should try to alter that relationship.

[Pidgeot]

I'm sticking with DS, and I think many people will. I have a hard time imagining many people shelling out between 300 and 375 Euros for a PSP, after all, not even the current consoles are that expensive. DS, however, is only between 149 and 199 Euros. And has the possibility to link up with your friend on the other side of the globe. And GBA compatability. And Miyamoto playing Wario Ware with a cotton swab.

[Priest4hire]

When I play on a console, I have my controller somewhere below my line of vision and the TV in front of me. I see no reason why a handheld system should try to alter that relationship.

The two are completely unrelated. For one thing you can't hold the controller so that the TV is between your hands. For another playing a game on a large TV that?s at least several feet away is unrelated to playing a handheld with a tiny screen in your hands. That you don't like handhelds with the screen between the controls is fine. But comparing handhelds to playing on a TV is rather weak.

The PSP's screen is too large to do it above the controls anyway, and I'd rather have the bigger screen than that screen above my hands. And you do realize - on the DS - that if you're controlling the game with a stylus and your interacting with the game that way you will have to use the lower screen.

Anyway, right now the PSP seems to have very weak battery times. And while there is an external battery who knows what it will cost. Most of the games seem to be ports, and I'm not 100% on how comfortable it will be.

On the other hand it kicks the DS's butt graphically. The new Metal Gear looks very slick indeed. The analog is nice, as is the large high resolution screen. The ability to play media is to me of no import. All I care about are the games, and it looks to have a few nice ones.

The DS has two screens and what have we seen from that so far? Maps. Paying for 2 screens and then having to backlight 2 screens so that we can have a map on its own screen seems like a waste. Then there's the touchscreen. Too small to play easily by hand we'll have to use a stylus. I've yet to be convinced the thing will be easy to hold while using the stylus, and there's been no word on how the screen will avoid being scratched. Touchscreens are prone to that after all. The N64 graphics don't excite and the system can only push 3D on one screen at a time. Like the PSP most games shown are ports.

But it will have the Nintendo games, and lots of good support. There may well be a few games that make good use of the dual screens and touchscreen. So there may be a few unique game experiences. Some of the games look pretty good. Certainly the Metroid game looks good. Battery life should be much better, and it should sell for less. All I care about are the games so things like instant messaging mean nothing to me.

I'm sticking with DS, and I think many people will. I have a hard time imagining many people shelling out between 300 and 375 Euros for a PSP, after all, not even the current consoles are that expensive. DS, however, is only between 149 and 199 Euros.

Last time I checked Sony never announced the price. So how do you know it will be between 300 and 375 Euros?

[KefkaTaran]

Yeah, the closest thing I've heard from the price arena is early, early estimates from 'experts'.

and Omega: Yes, as has been said earlier, the Mario 64 game is real and was one of the first games I saw shown for DS during E3 coverage. I'm actually honestly far more excited about the new 2D Mario game.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

I'm not overly impressed myself by what I saw game-wise for either system, however I see GREAT potential for what the systems CAN create and I think that's what has given me a non-bias view of it. I really will buy them both, or just one or the other if one isn't good, or even none of them for a while if both of them come out with not so good games or something (such as GC and PS2 came out with only 1 or 2 good games for quite a while after launch to me).

Both seem to have ALOT of potential...sadly, for me, I'm really looking into PSP being able to play media. Meaning DivX or the like. Not worried about DVD, but I would love to use that ting on the go for video watching. Otherwise, the DS already has what sounds like word processing, image manipulation programs for fun and possibly even internet! I mean, more and more the DS is sounding like a pocket PC or Palm Pilot....and I think Nintendo would be really smart to create a cheap and highly versitile gaming machinethat could ALSO function as some of these things. It would not only encourage buyers because they can do far more than just games, but it could actually cut into Sony's OTHER markets, such as portable electronics and internet compatable Cell Phones.

See, perhaps there's more to this DS than we realize. All speculation, but that's ideas I was kinda getting from various specs and the E3 N-Conferrence.

[darth vader wannabe]

Hrm... My point on the DS vs(if you can call it that) PSP issue.

A few years ago, Nintendo was basically running the market. They were alone at the top, followed distantly behind by Sega (talking Dreamcast vs. N64 here).

Then this 3rd party comes in. Takes nearly half the market share away from Nintendo. Hell, apparently, the big N even helped create the system that was released.

And, as you've probably already guessed, the company was Sony, and the system was the Playstation.

Now, it seems like the big competition on the console market doesn't have Nintendo in the lineup anymore, really. Their only big spot is in handhelds.

Which Sony is now invading.

Plus, you have the fact that, as someone before me said, "Nintendo is only a gaming company." This means that they have no other support for their corporation. If this flops, they go under (most likely). Sony is a conglomerate of technology, and if they have one thing that flops, they can (and if something of thiers does flop) and will have the ability to bounce back from it, whereas Nintendo will not.

[Stabbitty Death]

I think sony is too focused on making their systems swiss army knifes. I heard somewhere that there weren't any games on display for the PSP at E3, which supports my belief that Sony isn't too focused on their games. Most people can go for a few hours without watching movies, and most people that want to listen to music on the go allready have mp3 players. So unless the psp has amazing games, I won't be buying it. What I think would be funny is if microsoft announced their own portable system that kicks both the DS and PSP's butt!

[snuj]

I voted for the PSP, simply because I'm a big fan of PlayStation. But I really like Nintendo, too, so I'll end up buying both eventually. Just going for the PSP first.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Then there's that little problem where the people in 'Sony' don't make any games....only companies which they bought and the hundreds of 3rd parties they pulled onto their systems. If you were to begin to see a slump in 3rd party support for a Playstation 'whatever' system, that would be it for that system. Nintendo has shown, albeit while struggling, they can still run a system on their own with just a few 3rds and mostly 2nds and 1st party games.

And on the flip side you have Nintendo, where 95% of all the staff working in the company, reguardless of present or past jobs, has or does make the games along with doing the other paperwork and management, etc. The CEOs of Sony can't walk down the hall and approve level design of Jak 2, but Miyamoto can look out his window and see them testing the new Zelda...-_-

Basically, I think, as has been stated pretty obviously in every interview and such, Nintendo is trying to make a 'totally unique gaming console' yes...but also draw the 3rd parties back to its side, then when the time is right it will follow up with a new console and a new GB possibly....and if the 3rd parties then begn to work on those systems as well (pending on if DS is successful on getting them to come as is the reason Reggie said Nintendo's future depends on the DS), then we might just see Sony evening out with Nintendo or even having its first run of downwards growth.

I'm on to you Nintendo.......and keep it up! ::ahem:: But yeah Sony....I still like the games on your system. ::Pat, Pat:: Just try not to be to cocky and take too much of the competition.....

::Sock!:: Screw you Microsoft. Why did you have to come in and take developers from these companies?! We already have enough competition!

[Drooling Iguana]

I owned a Palm Pilot for years, and now own a Zaurus (which, thankfully, has a fairly large keyboard built-in,) and from my experience I can tell you that, in nearly all cases, a stylus makes a lousy input device for gaming. It's awkward to hold up to the screen for long periods of time, it's imprecise, and it obsures the screen. Pretty much the only games that it's actually good for are games that rely heavily on pointing and clicking, such as adventure games, strategy games and PC-style RPGs, and they would be rendered nearly unplayable by the DS's postage stamp of a screen.

Unless Sony makes some serious mistakes on the PSP, I don't see much of a chance here for Nintendo. All they really have going for them is brand name recognition, a few popular franchises, and the fanboy contingent. Someone at Nintendo needs to realise that the reason why no one's put two screens on a handheld before isn't because no one's thought of it, but because when they did think of it their next thought was always "no, never mind, that's a stupid idea."

[Fifthfiend]

the only games that it's actually good for are games that rely heavily on pointing and clicking, such as adventure games, strategy games and PC-style RPGs

Hey, works for me.

they would be rendered nearly unplayable by the DS's postage stamp of a screen.

Ah, so clearly all the fun I remember having while playing FF Tactics and Advance Wars were some kind of mad fever-dream.

[Drooling Iguana]

You weren't playing FF Tactics and Advance Wars with a stylus.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

I owned a Palm Pilot for years, and now own a Zaurus (which, thankfully, has a fairly large keyboard built-in,) and from my experience I can tell you that, in nearly all cases, a stylus makes a lousy input device for gaming. It's awkward to hold up to the screen for long periods of time, it's imprecise, and it obsures the screen. Pretty much the only games that it's actually good for are games that rely heavily on pointing and clicking, such as adventure games, strategy games and PC-style RPGs, and they would be rendered nearly unplayable by the DS's postage stamp of a screen.

Nintendo has been known for taking ideas never thought of as being able to work and making them amazingly fun and successful. They haven't had many of these on GC, but we will see if the DS will do that. And I seem to remember people pre-judging such things as the GC controller as not being able to be used for 'X' type of game (specifically RPGs and FIghters). Boy, I proved that wrong in practice.

Unless Sony makes some serious mistakes on the PSP, I don't see much of a chance here for Nintendo. All they really have going for them is brand name recognition, a few popular franchises, and the fanboy contingent. Someone at Nintendo needs to realise that the reason why no one's put two screens on a handheld before isn't because no one's thought of it, but because when they did think of it their next thought was always "no, never mind, that's a stupid idea."

Yeah, you're right. I mean, Sony's the world leader in people going 'its Playstation so I'll buy it' and 'had all the good 3rd parties so I go with Playstation' and 'Nintendo sucks now and Playstation will always be better than Nintendo'. Wait...was I suppose to be agreeing with Sony....shoot.

And then yeah, oops. Everyone's thought of putting 2 screens on a handheld before. It's just all thought it was dumb...or maybe you think it is and are just pre-judinging it without even trying a game and giving it a chance. I believe in the latter.

-----

Oh yeah. I can actualy think of a few ways a game like FFTactics could actually be really fun with a touch-screen. Faster moving of characters. Pull down menues. Camera movement with a centering tool (using the stylus). Checking stats of enemies/characters by selecting them. Secondary options being enabled with the stylus. Etc.

[MasterOfMagic]

Yes, any game like Tatics would be a lot better with a stylus. And quite frankly, I don't think it will obscure the screen all that much, you can move your hand out of the way can't you? And the palm pilots work well enough. The only games where this would be an issue is RTS's, and even then it wouldn't be that bad.

[Priest4hire]

Oh yeah. I can actualy think of a few ways a game like FFTactics could actually be really fun with a touch-screen. Faster moving of characters. Pull down menues. Camera movement with a centering tool (using the stylus). Checking stats of enemies/characters by selecting them. Secondary options being enabled with the stylus. Etc.

You realize that to use the stylus means taking one hand off the unit, right? Secondary options being enabled by the stylus suggests that the primary control won't be via the stylus which suggests constantly switching. Since you can't 'right-click' with the stylus, you'd need a standard response to clicking on a character. As for menus, they make sense but the question is how small could they be? The radial menus of Temple of Elemental Evil would be neat, but they would never fit. After all, unlike with standard console controls where you have to but highlight the option with the stylus you have to be able to pick it with that instrument. Make it too small and that will be difficult.

And the DS does not have large screens. In fact, both DS screens combined are pushing fewer pixels than the single screen of the PSP. Considering that this control scheme has been around for a while, and isn't the best even with larger screens than the DS boasts, concerns regarding the effectiveness are not unwarranted.

I'm in it for the games first. Stuff like being able to doodle, or write tiny notes, or instant message, that's all useless crap to me. It's about the games, remember? People accuse the PSP of cramming in too much stuff, even though all of its extras come at no extra cost. Yet here is the DS with a touchscreen and voice recognition and dual screens but no analog. I'd take analog over some useless gizmo like voice recognition any day. Last time I played around with voice recognition it was still pretty weak, required training, and was running on a system vastly more powerful than the DS. Oh, and I had a headset to boot.

[Drooling Iguana]

Nintendo has been known for taking ideas never thought of as being able to work and making them amazingly fun and successful. They haven't had many of these on GC, but we will see if the DS will do that. And I seem to remember people pre-judging such things as the GC controller as not being able to be used for 'X' type of game (specifically RPGs and FIghters). Boy, I proved that wrong in practice.You mean like the R.O.B.? Or the Power Glove? Or the Power Pad? Virtual Boy? e-Reader? Any of those ring a bell? Care to provide any examples of "taking ideas never thought of as being able to work and making them amazingly fun and successful"? As far as hardware goes, I can't think of a single thing, except maybe for adding an analog stick to a console crontoller, although that was implemented horribly on the N64 and it fell to Sony to try it again and get it right.

They did have a few innovations in the hardware arena, such as the D-Pad and shoulder buttons, but I don't recall there being any great controversy about those.

As for the controller, I've found the GC controller to be a pain in the ass for any game that requires more than one button.Yeah, you're right. I mean, Sony's the world leader in people going 'its Playstation so I'll buy it' and 'had all the good 3rd parties so I go with Playstation' and 'Nintendo sucks now and Playstation will always be better than Nintendo'. Wait...was I suppose to be agreeing with Sony....shoot.I keep hearing about these people, but I've never seen any. I think they're a myth.And then yeah, oops. Everyone's thought of putting 2 screens on a handheld before. It's just all thought it was dumb...or maybe you think it is and are just pre-judinging it without even trying a game and giving it a chance. I believe in the latter.You know, there have been dual-screen games before now. It's hardly a new idea. This is just the first time anyone's used it on a mainstream console, mostly because most people realised what a stupid idea it was.Oh yeah. I can actualy think of a few ways a game like FFTactics could actually be really fun with a touch-screen. Faster moving of characters. Pull down menues. Camera movement with a centering tool (using the stylus). Checking stats of enemies/characters by selecting them. Secondary options being enabled with the stylus. Etc.Priest4Hire's already addressed this, and he pretty much covered it.

[h4x.m4g3]

You mean like the R.O.B.? Or the Power Glove? Or the Power Pad? Virtual Boy? e-Reader? Any of those ring a bell? Care to provide any examples of "taking ideas never thought of as being able to work and making them amazingly fun and successful"? As far as hardware goes, I can't think of a single thing, except maybe for adding an analog stick to a console crontoller, although that was implemented horribly on the N64 and it fell to Sony to try it again and get it right.

So what your saying is Sony can't think for themselves and instead picks up the ideals that Nintendo has. And what do you mean the analog stick on the N64 was implemented horribly. Most of the games i played with used the Analog Stick just fine, sure the control design was a little funky but every single game had its recommended control holding position. In fact Pokemon Stadium (God forbidd I ever have to make refrence to this game again) would show you the recommended control positions for each of the mini-games.
As for the controller, I've found the GC controller to be a pain in the ass for any game that requires more than one button.
And many people thought the X-box control was a pain in the ass. Some people like smaller controlers, some like larger ones. I prefer the original X-box controllers to the new ones because of the placement of the White, Black, start, and select buttons. It's all about preference.
I keep hearing about these people, but I've never seen any. I think they're a myth.
Are you blind. Every company has minions that follow them blindly. Sony has a bunch.

You know, there have been dual-screen games before now. It's hardly a new idea. This is just the first time anyone's used it on a mainstream console, mostly because most people realised what a stupid idea it was.

People said lots of things are stupid ideals. Just because you lack vision, doesn't mean everybody else does.

As for the secondary options all it would take would be for the programming to say "If either shoulder button is pressed down while the stylus is being clicked execute secondary option. One hand is still going to be on the DS remember.

[Priest4hire]

People said lots of things are stupid ideals. Just because you lack vision, doesn't mean everybody else does.

Yeah, we got to see lots of vision at the E3. Maps. Why didn't we think of it? A whole extra screen so we can have a map. That's pure genius. ;) So, what can two screens do that one large one can't? Especially since only one screen can show 3D.

As for the secondary options all it would take would be for the programming to say "If either shoulder button is pressed down while the stylus is being clicked execute secondary option. One hand is still going to be on the DS remember.

Sounds not very portable. Consider that handheld shoulder buttons are known to be iffy anyway. So you're going to support the whole console with one hand firmly enough to keep it steady for the stylus and keep a finger free to tap the shoulder pad, eh? Sounds like a good way to get a cramp to me. Of course you could support it on a table or something, but that's not very portable, is it?

But when you realize that you always have to have that stylus in your hand while you're also jumping back and forth between the side buttons, and when you put together that even in games that ignore the buttons and just use stylus play, the need to support the system with your left hand will make keeping a hand on the D-pad somewhat difficult and may also make reaching that left trigger a bit more awkward ... you can see the problem. You basically have that one big screen for control, with the rest of the buttons and controls taking a backseat for all the really special games.

From IGN and a person who has actually held a DS.

But I'll be the first to admit that there are bound to be some games that make use of the touchscreen, and even the dual screen setup. But I'm going to need to see the proof before I buy into the idea that 2 screens are really the better approach than a larger single screen. One screen that's both wider and pushing more pixels than both DS screens combined sounds better. I'd love to see the killer app that proves the DS setup is the setup of the future, but until then I'll take it with a grain of salt.

[KefkaTaran]

Darth Vader: Interesting point you make, and definitely worth noting. Except that Dreamcast was released AFTER the Playstation. ;)

D.I., Ken, and Priest: Better points, all around. In fact, bonus points! Free lives, even.

This thread has certainly turned far more enlightening than it started out.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

So, what can two screens do that one large one can't? Especially since only one screen can show 3D.

Yeah, I realize one hand is going to have to use the stylus to do things, but so do the games creators I'm sure. I doubt every game is going to use the Stylus. I'm also sure they'll be a way to utilize both screens with just the normal D-Pad and buttons, no touching the bottom screen (perhaps the theory of pushing or holding down a sholder button, already been done in some 1 Screen console games; especially fighters).

For a game such as Tactics, where you can sit the dumb thing down for 70,000 hours and no one will move, it doesn't really matter if you have to take your hand off or not, except for those who don't want to go through the hastle of doing this alot (which I admit could get annoying if not propperly moderated with the flow of the game, which its the designers job to work that pace out). But to answer the 'right-clicking thing' what could be one is such as this:

Screen A (the top screen) has the playfield. Then the bottom screen, Screen B will allow you by touching it (stylus or no) to move the camera by touching either a small map or a blank area or something (like Sim City type right clicking and dragging). Bam, instant and easy camera control, much faster and more effective than the camera control in the Original FFTactics and even Disgaea or Fire Emblem. And then say on the right hand side of the screen (second Bottom Screen B), there's a menu with your characters on it (pictures of their faces or something). By clicking on these characters faces, a menu pops up and a list of 'secondary' abilities or perhaps just specs or even items they carry or something are on them. The main screen would have their 'normal' abilities and this bottom screen would have the 'secondary' abilities. Maybe even summons or something. And the screen, because its a touch sensetive SCREEN and not just like a Tomy piece of junk 10 Dollar Nascar racer with those painted on screens or something, the contents on the screen can change. So once you select a character, the character could come up on the bottom screen and then you can do what few RPGs have ever done, allow you to customize things in battle or whatnot. See, just sitting here on my duff thinking up random stuff I see all this great things that could be done with just ONE game. And to answer after my ramble....basically, the use of a 'second screen' is the same as having kind of the right click feature. The second screen (Screen B) can utilize all the features a regular PC game might do with right clicking...but then it can also allow for MORE to be done (see above example) without having to clutter one main screen with multiple menus or breaking the players view/pace of the game/main playing field.

I'd love to see the killer app that proves the DS setup is the setup of the future, but until then I'll take it with a grain of salt.

I personally don't realy see 2 Screens being the biggest thing the world has ever seen, but it might revolutionize at least the Hand-Held market and be something really nice. I don't exactly see 2 Screens working for a TV setup of course and I've always thought that's what they were trying to do with the GBA/GC connctivity. But somehow when it is going to be on the same device with the same sized screens in a way so I don't have to move my head down to my lap to see a seperate device, just move my eyes to a lower screen...I think it could be great. It could also be too wierd and not do good. We'll see which. Let's just not label it as dumb until we see it.

You mean like the R.O.B.? Or the Power Glove? Or the Power Pad? Virtual Boy? e-Reader?
As for the controller, I've found the GC controller to be a pain in the ass for any game that requires more than one button.

Don't know what R.O.B is....but anyway.

Let's see...Nintendo is the oldest of the BIG MAIN 3 gaming hardware makers right now and therefore, in comparison to Sony it has had nearly 3x longer to make mistakes and nearly 5x-6x longer to make some mistakes as compared to Microsoft and its only first Gen XBOX. As well, Nintendo developed the Console market we saw today, in effect going through many of the hurtles and making the mistakes later systems could view and make sure not to follow, but also created and continues to follow the philosophy of 'be innovative'. Therefore, pointing out various mistakes made by Nintendo and saying the DS is likewise crap is like pointing out the Mistakes of Microsoft in the past and saying the next Windows (not due out till like 2007 or something) is doomed to fail. Or me pointing out bad things Sony has done (the limited amount since they played off Nintendo's weaknesses) and saying PS3 and the PSP will fail because of them. But reguardless of this logic and the fact that I view that to be totally obsolete, here:

Ok...things Nintendo did that were deemed strange or innovative but went on to be successfull. I can't think of much at the moment cuz I would need to go back and look at all the stuff Nintendo has done (as in only Japan stuff and stuff that did good in Japan and not America and vice-versa, etc). Hmmm...Some Hardware: Game Boy (the most succesful piece of hardware in history and it was released with a Puzzle game...gutsy? I think so), GBSP (has recently out-sold the original GBA in half the time, even AFTER the GBA had been out first and for 3 years before it).

Some Software, Pokemon (game based on a little known Manga became one of Japans biggest FADS, not just game series, that still goes on today), Zelda (almost wasn't approved for development because it sounded 'too different' from the types of games Nintendo was making at the time).

Just Recent Software: Wind Wakers graphical style, Animal Crossing, Metroid going 1st Person....I see Nintendo doing pleanty of innovation, but I'm not limiting my scope to Hardware. Nintendo has always made the bluk of their innovation go towards their games. The reason we are in our current state of so many people being obsessed with graphics is because the other two systems used this and pushed their systems for bulk of games and better graphics (and in the case of X-BOX, purely on Ads saying things such as 'the strongest system' and 'best graphics ever'). Now Nintendo is making something that once again isn't the most powerful thing out there....yet its trying to be the most innovative and bring new things to the table for developers to utilize and gamers to use. And my theory is they may also be trying to add a few other features to it such as Internet browsing and the like to get those tech people who buy Sony Products (not PSX products) such as Cel Phones that can view IMs and stuff, cutting not just into Sony's game sales but other sales as well. Not proven, but it could happen.

As for your comments, half of what you said were based on opinion. Some feel the GC controller is the best controller ever made (its certainly one of the best if not the best I have ever used). You're the one saying the Analog on the 64 Controller is horrible while the PS2s is superior. I tend to believe the GC's analog is superior to the PS2's and while the N64s is wierd to handle at first, I can't imagine playing Zelda 64 or Mario Kart 64 using a PS2 Analog device....(and in fact the N64 analog works better than the GCs for Ocarina as well). And the Power Glove like the NES Gun didn't have enough games made for it and that's why it didn't get used much. But you don't hear people screaming the NES gun sucked, right? Because Duck Hunt is such a fun game. So the Power Glove didn't fail because it was a cruddy device, but because there was no game support for it. Same with the Power Pad (I only know of 3 games made for it).

Nintendo might have alot of quote 'failures' but look at what they have done dispite. No doubt they have always been a company trying to do innovative things and they're continuing this now. You really just think its a dumb idea so you want to slam it down, in every way including saying its not innovative because 'everyone else already thought it was stupid'. Well....seems all these companies showing heavy interest in working on the system, including EA and I believe Square, must have thought there was something to it indeed. And I'm willing to bet at least some of them, even if they thought of a 'crazy 2-Screen idea' before Nintendo ever announced it, are not thinking its quite 'stupid' or else they wouldn't be showing intrest and in fact ARE making games for it as we speak. Or....everyone does think its stupid like you said and Konami, Capcom, EA, Namco, Sega, and Ubi Soft are just setting aside resources, time and money for a project they all think is dumb. No...I believe they're making games in the hope that the DS will be both a good system and be profitable and they want to be there at the start.

So keep saying the DS is stupid, but I say you're pre-judging it. It might not be that great, but just saying it sucks because you hear stuff online and never even seeing a fully made game, let alone the finished system means quite simply you're not giving it a chance.

I keep hearing about these people, but I've never seen any. I think they're a myth.

....there's already been some in this thread, one right on page 4 right before I made the comment:

I voted for the PSP, simply because I'm a big fan of PlayStation.


That was TOO much writing....but sometimes you just gotta say stuff!

[Priest4hire]

For a game such as Tactics, where you can sit the dumb thing down for 70,000 hours and no one will move, it doesn't really matter if you have to take your hand off or not, except for those who don't want to go through the hastle of doing this alot (which I admit could get annoying if not propperly moderated with the flow of the game, which its the designers job to work that pace out). But to answer the 'right-clicking thing' what could be one is such as this:

Screen A (the top screen) has the playfield. Then the bottom screen, Screen B will allow you by touching it (stylus or no) to move the camera by touching either a small map or a blank area or something (like Sim City type right clicking and dragging). Bam, instant and easy camera control, much faster and more effective than the camera control in the Original FFTactics and even Disgaea or Fire Emblem. And then say on the right hand side of the screen (second Bottom Screen B), there's a menu with your characters on it (pictures of their faces or something). By clicking on these characters faces, a menu pops up and a list of 'secondary' abilities or perhaps just specs or even items they carry or something are on them. The main screen would have their 'normal' abilities and this bottom screen would have the 'secondary' abilities. Maybe even summons or something. And the screen, because its a touch sensetive SCREEN and not just like a Tomy piece of junk 10 Dollar Nascar racer with those painted on screens or something, the contents on the screen can change. So once you select a character, the character could come up on the bottom screen and then you can do what few RPGs have ever done, allow you to customize things in battle or whatnot. See, just sitting here on my duff thinking up random stuff I see all this great things that could be done with just ONE game. And to answer after my ramble....basically, the use of a 'second screen' is the same as having kind of the right click feature. The second screen (Screen B) can utilize all the features a regular PC game might do with right clicking...but then it can also allow for MORE to be done (see above example) without having to clutter one main screen with multiple menus or breaking the players view/pace of the game/main playing field.

Interesting ideas alright. I'm just not sure how they will all work out on the small screen.

So, we have a mini-map or blank area to control the view of the main screen. Makes sense and it's been done already. However, do remember that you will need to make it large enough to be useable. Especially if you expect someone to use it with their finger. Controlling the camera via a minimap smaller than a postage stamp isn't my idea of fun. Using the second screen as an inventory system makes sense. But I'm not sure this minor convenience is worth a second screen. I'm not sure how this control scheme would allow you to customize in battle where others would not. It's easy to allow you to customize in battle, it's just that usually the idea is that battle is happening too quickly for characters to be swapping all kinds of stuff around.

Using the touchscreen for anything that would be used regularly and also using regular controls would mean constantly switching and picking up and putting down the stylus. If I was playing FFT and had to switch to a stylus every time I wanted to do a summon or some other commonly used ability I'd go nuts. The whole idea of the 'right-click' on the PC is that it's easy and convenient. Without a thought or any extra work I can just right-click a unit or area. You're suggesting that taking my hand off one side of the DS, picking up a stylus, tapping a character and then some tiny menus on the small lower screen, putting down the stylus, and putting my hand back on the controller is the equivalent of depressing the right mouse button on a PC?


Why exactly is switching to a second screen breaking the view/pace less than having a menu pop up on the main screen? At least with the latter you don't have to take your view completely off the main action. With a larger screen, say one twice the size, you could devote even a third of the screen to nothing but secondary information. If fact, that used to be fairly common. For games to make use of multiple windows. But it's since died out in favor of a full screen approach with pop-up menus or semi-transparent overlays. At least that way you don't have to constantly switch views between separate screens. Even switching to an inventory on the main screen is usually not a big deal since you aren't going to be controlling the game and using the inventory at the same time. Even with the second screen you still have to switch to the other screen, so it's the same in the end. Though one thing it would do is allow you to manipulate the inventory in real-time. Handy for a port of Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles I'm sure.

Don't know what R.O.B is....but anyway.

The robot buddy that was released for the NES.

Hmmm...Some Hardware: Game Boy (the most succesful piece of hardware in history and it was released with a Puzzle game...gutsy? I think so), GBSP (has recently out-sold the original GBA in half the time, even AFTER the GBA had been out first and for 3 years before it).

Tetris was hugely popular before it was packed in with the GB. It's been put on almost too many systems to count, was the center of a huge legal battle between Nintendo and Tengen, is one of the most famous computer games of all time, and has spawned countless clones. Putting an all time classic smash hit on a handheld is not gutsy. Smart? Yep. A god choice for a handheld? No doubt. But gutsy?

The SP was basically what the GBA should have been. So Nintendo released a slightly crippled piece of hardware, then a slightly less crippled piece of hardware and the second one sells. Wow, I'm amazed. If nothing else I hope the competition means Nintendo can't get away with crap like that in the handheld arena anymore.

You're the one saying the Analog on the 64 Controller is horrible while the PS2s is superior.

Actually, the N64 analog controller is poorly built. That's not some random opinion. I've taken one apart and seen how it's constructed and they are well known for wearing out too easily. Whether or not the setup is better is more a matter of opinion. But the cheap hard plastic analog stick connected to a crappy mechanism in the N64 was not as good as the rubber top and better action of the Dual Shock.

And the Power Glove like the NES Gun didn't have enough games made for it and that's why it didn't get used much. But you don't hear people screaming the NES gun sucked, right? Because Duck Hunt is such a fun game. So the Power Glove didn't fail because it was a cruddy device, but because there was no game support for it. Same with the Power Pad (I only know of 3 games made for it).

Perhaps no games were made because the items in question sucked, or were just too limited of use? If no one uses the special features of the DS what difference will it make? Innovative hardware has to be used in games to be any good. Why a piece of hardware wasn't used in many games is besides the point.

Well....seems all these companies showing heavy interest in working on the system, including EA and I believe Square, must have thought there was something to it indeed. And I'm willing to bet at least some of them, even if they thought of a 'crazy 2-Screen idea' before Nintendo ever announced it, are not thinking its quite 'stupid' or else they wouldn't be showing intrest and in fact ARE making games for it as we speak. Or....everyone does think its stupid like you said and Konami, Capcom, EA, Namco, Sega, and Ubi Soft are just setting aside resources, time and money for a project they all think is dumb. No...I believe they're making games in the hope that the DS will be both a good system and be profitable and they want to be there at the start.

That they are devoting time and money to the system speaks far more about the power of the Gameboy name than the practicality of the 2 screen setup. They could think the 2 screens are stupid, but they would have be stupid themselves to not make games for the thing. Of course they are all making games for the PSP as well. And it remains to be seen whether these developers actually use the second screen, touchscreen, and voice recognition for anything worthwhile or if they just make low cost games with token support for the DS features.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

But the DS is not a GB system and Nintendo is driving that fact into the ground. Its suppose to be Nintendo's 'Third Pillar' and a totally new system, while a new GB is in development indeed (and I'm pretty sure Its been in development since the GBA came out).

Alot of what you said also is based on opinion (as is all of our stuff). The Analog on the N64 might wear out, but I still feel it functions better than the PS2 analog which feels like I'm constantly battling to keep my thumb steady. In fact, as if there's grease in between the Analog stick and the space its rubbing against. Whreas the GC and N64, while prone to being able to wear out from rough use, doesn't do that to me (mostly thanks to the octagon shape with the divisions that hold the stick in place). Then when you combine this octagon kind of 'locking' of the Stick system with the almost standard of which 3D games have taken to the Ocarina type Camera system, the N64 and GC are just perfect to me. But then I play games like GTA3:VC or Zone of Enders and I'm constantly in a battle with positioning the camera cuz when I push a L2 button or something, that good 'ol greasy PS2 Shock Joystick wiggles around and I end up not having the camera behind my character. I can almost nevr get the camera behind Tommy in GTA:VC unless I actually think about it. And I don't want to have to think about moving the camera....I've played Ocarina for 6 years and got use NOT having to think about the Camera. But anyway, its all opinion based on that and I could talk all day about what functions I think are better on this controller over that one....we're talking about two different things. You're talking about its hardware quality and I'm just taking about how it responds in the various games I have played.

And if you don't think the lack of software helping make a piece of hardware sell or functionable, then you've missed the whole point of selling consoles and why Sony is ahead right now....the power golve came out with little functionability in a limited amount of games. It could have been great for all I know (never got to use it) but I know the reason it failed was because no games were made specifically for it. So software is the very reasn it failed and so in effect, what you're saying I didn't say...is what I said. But it hardly matters, because I was trying to show him how the NES Power Glove and the DS can hardly be compared and we can't judge a piece of hardware that hasn't even come out yet with something done in the past that isn't even being created for the same function....

And the first time most of us ever heard of Tetris was when the Game Boy came out. So, eventhough it had been a PC game and succesful with some people, the majority of people never knew what it was. In fact, for the majority of us, the only puzzle game we had ever played was the Apple IIe Picture puzzle.... So to put a puzzle game on a system and then even boothes for people to look at it I think is gutsy. Once you play it, you know its damn fun. But just looking at it walking by, I bet alot of initial people passed it by.

Oh yeah, who says you have to pick up a stylus to click on the bottom screen? I could invision myself using my thumb to click on it (pending on if thumb marks don't stick to the serface). I'd be great to just be playing Tactics and then suddenly I want to know how strong say a White Mage was against Fire Magic....just pick my thumb up from off the D-Pad and press on the face of my little White Mage then she pops up and it tells me all her stats. Place thumb back on D-Pad and move White Mage to Blocking Position. Never even picked up my hand.

[Priest4hire]

But the DS is not a GB system and Nintendo is driving that fact into the ground. Its suppose to be Nintendo's 'Third Pillar' and a totally new system, while a new GB is in development indeed (and I'm pretty sure Its been in development since the GBA came out).

Yeah, it just happens to have backwards compatibility which means that gamers must choose between GB/GBA games on a GBA or SP, or all that and DS games on the DS. Nintendo can call it a third leg all it wants, but it's going to be received as the next GBA. And if Nintendo releases another GBA that doesn't have backwards compatibility to the DS it will piss off all the people who invested in the DS. Not to mention devs who still have DS games in the pipeline.

And the first time most of us ever heard of Tetris was when the Game Boy came out. So, eventhough it had been a PC game and succesful with some people, the majority of people never knew what it was. In fact, for the majority of us, the only puzzle game we had ever played was the Apple IIe Picture puzzle.... So to put a puzzle game on a system and then even boothes for people to look at it I think is gutsy. Once you play it, you know its damn fun. But just looking at it walking by, I bet alot of initial people passed it by.

Other than the copy that was sold on the NES before Nintendo decided to grab the game for the Gameboy? It only sold 2 million copies, so I guess it wasn't big. ;) No, Nintendo grabbed Tetris and went through all the bother and hassle because they knew it was huge. It can be argued that it was partly the draw of Tetris that helped move the GB.

Oh yeah, who says you have to pick up a stylus to click on the bottom screen? I could invision myself using my thumb to click on it (pending on if thumb marks don't stick to the serface). I'd be great to just be playing Tactics and then suddenly I want to know how strong say a White Mage was against Fire Magic....just pick my thumb up from off the D-Pad and press on the face of my little White Mage then she pops up and it tells me all her stats. Place thumb back on D-Pad and move White Mage to Blocking Position. Never even picked up my hand.

Your thumb is a terribly imprecise control method. Kiss goodbye those menus and mini-maps. Just the pics and stat screen is about all that would be good for. Which is fine, but worth the cost of an extra screen, the time cleaning the fingerprints off (minor though), and most importantly the problem of scratching? Considering you could achieve the same thing by moving the cursor or control box over to your white mage and clicking on her? Not really. Convenient but not that critical or convenient.

Thing is most of the stuff that has shown for the DS has fallen into the neat or cute catagory. But what's needed are games that make you think that they couldn't be done any other way. Otherwise what's the point of spending money on neat or cute gizmos that could have gone towards more power. Developers can always use more power to innovate after all.

On the other hand if Sony can't get the battery issue under control Nintendo may have nothing to fear after all.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

I decided to go do some reading up on the systems again. Here's some interesting things I came up with. The more I read up on the hand-helds, the more potential I think it has, in both the ability to make innovative and surprising games and its hardware aspects. And Graphics aren't everything in hardware. Sometimes even without the most powerful graphics, you can actually make games that are more technical and do more things than those that just have more Pixels on screen or ability to press more polygons (which I think is the main point Nintendo keeps trying to press with the Device).

-----
IGN: What was the concept and design process like for the Nintendo DS? Did Nintendo hand over a dual screen, touch screen wireless system to designers and say, create something? Or did designers dictate its creation with ideas that just wasn't possible in current systems?

Hideki Konno: It was a paring between the hardware and developers at Nintendo, but really it was the software developers that drove many of the new features of the system. Developers would send ideas to the hardware designers, and the hardware designers would come back with, "well, how about if we did this?" It definitely was a collaboration.
-----
[Action use of the Stylus at Work. Note: I also am weary of the use of an action game with a stylus, but I'm keeping my mind open to see what it's like]

Hideki Konno: Again, I'm a little biased since Metroid Prime: Hunters is my project, but the way you control Samus with the stylus is pretty innovative. And, of course, the shooting style, too. In past Metroid games to target another enemy you had to unlock the target on one and move to the next. With the DS, it's possible to choose how you shoot the enemy. You can conceivably target multiple enemies on-screen at once by location tapping with the stylus and you can also lead your target by shooting just to the left or right as he moves. So it's a different experience for each user.
-----
[The ability to draw characters and use them in a game.......I'm there! Incorperate that into an RPG and just WOW!]
IGN: What do you think is the most impressive use of the touch screen so far?

Takashi Tezuka: The most innovative thing I've seen so far is in Pac Pix where players draw Pac-Man and that drawing comes to life on the screen. Nobody has ever seen anything like that before. Which one did you think?
-----
[Ehh...good and bad.]
IGN: Will connectivity with the GameCube or Game Boy Advance come to the Nintendo DS?

Takashi Tezuka: We've definitely thought of that. It's in the discussion stages right now, so don't be surprised if Nintendo announces something like that.
-----
[I hope its even more Accurate than a PalmPilot]
The touch screen technology is incredibly sensitive and mirrors the same amount of pin-point control that PocketPCs and Palm Pilots have been enjoying for years
-----
[Will it go GB? I hope not, because Nintendo could make a GB system with 1 screen and probably floor PSP because it comes after, with the combined sales of DSand a GB3. But who knows, PSP could be good. For once I'd like to see Sony not sit on its butt thinking it can do no wrong with a system.]
We're still not sure why Nintendo is still insisting that this system is a third platform and not the continuation of the Game Boy line, and as of this writing the company still swears that the Nintendo DS will be separate from the Game Boy. Don't be surprised if Nintendo shifts its stance on where the DS positions itself by the time the unit ships this year.
-----
[When things look good early, we can hope for better later]
It definitely seemed like Metroid Prime: Hunters was there only to show off its 3D capabilities, and I was impressed simply because this early in the game (point of time), developers have managed to get a 3D game looking that good. Imagine when companies get a bit tighter to the hardware what they'll be able to do.
-----
[We question it because its unique, but we need to see it in action to truly judge]
Analog control is one thing, but direct, precise pinpoint control is entirely another…and it's really exciting to anticipate what creative designers can pull off on such a device.
-----
[Obviously, Nintendos will probably be cheaper]
Price, too…neither Nintendo nor Sony were willing to show their hands here, but obviously the less expensive they are, the better it is for us. And in all honesty, looking at both systems, Nintendo will have the edge with a much more affordable and aggressive pricepoint.
-----
[He's got a point...]
My biggest issue with the PSP is that, really, it's just a shrunk down current-generation console. In theory this sounds great, since you can take PS2-quality games on the go. But the problem here is going to be simply one thing: expectations. Budgets for PlayStation 2 game development encroaches and many times exceeds the million-dollar pricetag. And the GBA market has proven that US consumers aren't willing to pay a premium for portable games over console titles.
-----
[Ouch.....Looks like no AAs here...]
1.8 gigabyte discs versus 128 megabyte carts means that developers aren't quite as restricted in their game designs. On the flipside, a drive is something that requires a motor, and that's an element that will come into play a lot more than people realize. After talking to developers, it's clear that, since the battery life of the PSP will significantly drop when hitting the drive to load data, game designers will most likely be encouraged to steer away from the "streaming" style of data retrieval.
-----
[That's Great!.....but not for new games...]
Which boils down to the real problem: because the budgets will most likely be reduced on the PSP developments, developers may resort to the logical conclusion: porting is the cheapest way to get games on the platform.
-----
[Just because I couldn't resist...::cough::Sony Obsessed::Cough::]
"...the PlayStation Portable stands a better use of becoming a permanent pocket or purse accessory than anything else before it, and likely anything else to come (until Sony comes out with something new, that is.)" <--Note: Total disreguard to the fact that any other company exists. -_-

[Pidgeot]

Last time I checked Sony never announced the price. So how do you know it will be between 300 and 375 Euros?

It is the predicted price. It's not official, but in my experience, it's going to be pretty close.

[h4x.m4g3]

Perhaps no games were made because the items in question sucked, or were just too limited of use? If no one uses the special features of the DS what difference will it make? Innovative hardware has to be used in games to be any good. Why a piece of hardware wasn't used in many games is besides the point.
Hardware can be good without software to support it. The Virtual Boy was a good ideal, but didn't sell well no games were on it, and most people agree that playing mario golf on it was very cool. If I have 1 Gig of Ram in my comp but most games only need half of that does that mean, that a computer with 1 Gig of RAM sucks.... no it means no developer has seen the need to have 1 Gig of RAM yet or says "It wouldn't be profitable because hardly anyone has 1 Gig of RAM." The world is driven by how much money people can make off an ideal. The problem with those products were companies would say "Not enough people have a powerglove, light gun, etc.. so why make games that uses them?" Does that make the experience with them any less enjoyable. Everyone still loved playing Duck Hunt.

On a Semi-Related Side Note
Steel Battilion. 300 bucks for a controller that only two games use. The control itself is still awesome, playing games with it is intense, but no other company makes games for it because not enough people are going out and spending $300 on a freaking controller. So will history will remember it is a bad ideal? Are people unsatisfied with it's capabilities because only 2 games use it. No the people who have it say "Its freaking awesome there needs to be more games that use it."

Edit:Oops amazing what sleep deprevation can do to the mind, I knew it was Steel Battilion... really I did

[Priest4hire]

Hardware can be good without software to support it. The Virtual Boy was a good ideal, but didn't sell well no games were on it, and most people agree that playing mario golf on it was very cool. If I have 1 Gig of Ram in my comp but most games only need half of that does that mean, that a computer with 1 Gig of RAM sucks.... no it means no developer has seen the need to have 1 Gig of RAM yet or says "It wouldn't be profitable because hardly anyone has 1 Gig of RAM." The world is driven by how much money people can make off an ideal. The problem with those products were companies would say "Not enough people have a powerglove, light gun, etc.. so why make games that uses them?" Does that make the experience with them any less enjoyable. Everyone still loved playing Duck Hunt.

The Virtual Boy was an interesting idea and a terrible product. It's infamous for its ability to cause headaches, and will probably go down as one of the worst consoles ever to exist. Two low resoluction red monochrome screens in a poorly designed device that forces the player into an awkward position? How this thing ever cleared Nintendo QC is beyond me. That they then sacked the engineer who designed it was a case of typical management scapegoat mentality. Not really an area of Nintendo that any Nintendo fan should want to relive.

But yes, hardware can be good but overlooked or poorly supported. But this is Nintendo we are talking about. Nintendo the best game developer in the world. You can't have it both ways. If Nintendo couldn't create the killer app to move the Powerglove, than how can you expect some lesser dev to do so? If the greatest developer employing Shigeru Miyamoto couldn't create games of note for these hardware flops, perhaps they were beyond salvaging. For surely Nintendo could make great games on any hardware that was even slightly decent.

But this is really besides the point. I believe that the point of bringing up some of the older Nintendo hardware failures wasn't to say that Nintendo always makes crap, or that the DS will be just like them, but just to burst this idea that all that Nintendo makes is gold. Just because Nintendo is making this unit doesn't mean it will be good. Nintendo has been hit and miss throughout their history.

On a Semi-Related Side Note
Mech Assult. 300 bucks for a controller that only two games use. The control itself is still awesome, playing games with it is intense, but no other company makes games for it because not enough people are going out and spending $300 on a freaking controller. So will history will remember it is a bad ideal? Are people unsatisfied with it's capabilities because only 2 games use it. No the people who have it say "Its freaking awesome there needs to be more games that use it."

You're thinking of Steel Battalion. The controller was $150, or $225 Canadian, and the game $50, or $75 Can. Now this is a case of the controller being created for that game alone. It was a piece of hardware created not for all games, like a console or a peripheral, but created for one specific game. As such it could be more focused than any ordinary piece of hardware, but it also meant that it wouldn't see any use outside that game or its sequels. As a piece of hardware for gaming in general it would be a bad idea, for only a very few games could ever use it. But you can't really talk about the controller without the game. In a sense it was really a game that costs $200, with the additional plus of being able to play the sequel for $50.

But even if it had sold better, and it did sell better than Capcom expected, what would other developers use it for? It would only work for a mech game, and one that used mechs configured pretty much the same as Steel Battalion.

It is the predicted price. It's not official, but in my experience, it's going to be pretty close.

I wouldn't even hazard a guess. Granted, it will probably be more expensive in the European territories. Still, Sony did make their intro into the North American gaming world by undercutting Sega be a hundred dollars. Sony has said they will lose money on the PSP initially, and I wouldn't be surprised if Sony decides to aim for a lower price in order to get their foot in the door. They could use the PS2 profits to float the PSP for a couple years.

Anyway, thinking about the PSP I don't think it's so much a shrunk down console as a beefed up GBA. It even looks like a beefed up GBA. Take the GBA, make the screen bigger, more colorful and higher resolution, crank up the power, and add an analog pad and a couple face buttons and you have the PSP. Whether that's good or bad is really up to the gamer. I think it's the 'meat and potatoes' handheld. It takes what works and goes with it.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

If the greatest developer employing Shigeru Miyamoto couldn't create games of note for these hardware flops, perhaps they were beyond salvaging.

But whp said Miyamoto did a game the focused on using either the power Glove or Virtual Boy? I don't recall hearing that he did. He also didn't make any games specifically for the e-card reader or Powerpad. And I know that none of these were his idea anyway....

Yet he is working on the DS as a supervisor and helped make the demos for it. I think he probably had a key role in its development. And let's see.....he also worked on the development of the GC, GBA, N64 and SNES. Albeit he never works directly with the hardware (except for the GC controller he designed himself), he always is bringing to them idea when its in development for games he could make at a future time.

My point is, for all the 'failures' in question, I haven't seen Miyamoto actually have any direct or even indirect involvement with those games. But I know he's definitly involved with the DS and even worked on some of the software Demos. Which leads me to believe he is going to be working on more software for the DS later....and that again, while I definitly do say that not everything Nintendo makes is 100% great, almost all the ones which have failed have had no interaction with Miyamoto and hardly any of them that have have been worked on by him. And the DS is on his high priority list (probably because they want to push it out by Christmas).

Anyway, thinking about the PSP I don't think it's so much a shrunk down console as a beefed up GBA. It even looks like a beefed up GBA. Take the GBA, make the screen bigger, more colorful and higher resolution, crank up the power, and add an analog pad and a couple face buttons and you have the PSP. Whether that's good or bad is really up to the gamer. I think it's the 'meat and potatoes' handheld. It takes what works and goes with it.

Well, from everything I see, it really is 'trying' to be a powerful almost next-gen console in a pocket, but I get what you mean. I always view Sony as taking other companies things and turning around, adding a couple buttons (with slight variation in either look or functionality) and then there you go, 'new' PSX product. But that said, the PSP is actually looking to be, even with all its seemingly copied ideas from just the PS2 and other companies consoles, to be the most unique system Sony has come to build yet.

They could use the PS2 profits to float the PSP for a couple years.

Or a decade...-_-

[Jagos]

Drooling Iguana = As far as hardware goes, I can't think of a single thing, except maybe for adding an analog stick to a console crontoller, although that was implemented horribly on the N64 and it fell to Sony to try it again and get it right. Well, they had to innovate something or else we'd still be playing with only two buttons a la Nintendo.

Kenryoku Maxis =
Same with the Power Pad (I only know of 3 games made for it).

Well, now Konami uses the Power pad with great success in their Dancemania games.

In terms of actual game systems, I gotta say that neither really appeals to me just yet. I don't like having power I can't use (sony and batteries) and the Dual Screen just seems... well... I'll just stick with Advance Wars on my SP for now.

Honestly, why do I have to upgrade everytime there's a new console?

[h4x.m4g3]

Well, now Konami uses the Power pad with great success in their Dancemania games.
We're not refering to the Dance Pad used with DDR which runs on the same technology as the original power pad. The original powerpad was out for Nintendo (I had one) and one of the only game it could play was Track and Feild (and maybe a few others but not many.) Either way they aren't the exact same device only similar.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Honestly, why do I have to upgrade everytime there's a new console?

Actually, Nintendo is hoping, at least main Console wise, you continue to feel this way for a while. They are releasing the DS/GB3 whatever its gonna become but they are pushing that they want to continue emphasis on GC for another year, maybe 2. It sounds rather iffy with the way things are set up today, but if you actually hear what they are thinking (a la Nintendo E3 Conference and a few interviews), it actually sounds like they might have a solid strategy by going with it.

But it all depends on a combonation 1) if the new games they are coming out with can generate enough appeal 2) the other systems lack in innovation what they gain in technical 'newness' and 3) if their next system in 2005/2006 is more powerful and attractive to the public than the other two which look like they're gonna come out before them now. Nintendo's doing its risky stuff again.....let's see if Price, anticipation and a well made library can beat the 20 year tradition of 'I have better graphics than you :P'. Which will the public go for in 2005/2006? Even the DS and PSP are doing this somewhat.

[ChaosMage]

let's see if Price, anticipation and a well made library can beat the 20 year tradition of 'I have better graphics than you :P'.

Its actually not a 20 year tradition. It started about the time Sony entered the market with the Playstation. Up until Sony started hyping graphics, no one really gave a damn. Sure, it was great if the sprites looked good but otherwise it wasn't really an issue. Similarly, back when sprites were the thing after a while people just stopped caring how much more detail you plugged into that little sprite, it looked about the same.

I think 3D gaming is reaching this point as well, where no amount of technical update will really change anything, but Sony and Microsoft are continuing to push graphics possibly because they know their first party games (that don't exist on Playstation and shouldn't exist on XBox) can't compete with Nintendo's.

[Priest4hire]

Its actually not a 20 year tradition. It started about the time Sony entered the market with the Playstation. Up until Sony started hyping graphics, no one really gave a damn. Sure, it was great if the sprites looked good but otherwise it wasn't really an issue. Similarly, back when sprites were the thing after a while people just stopped caring how much more detail you plugged into that little sprite, it looked about the same.

That's pure bunk. The Coleco's largest selling point was improved graphics over the Atari. The 5200 was in direct response to that. The NES partly made a splash due to the much improved graphics it had, and Nintendo spent a fair bit of effort to engineer special chips for the NES cartridges, which they then used to make their own games look better than the competition. Of course, Nintendo would only release the chips for third party use after they had exploited them for their latest game. Obviously because Nintendo knew better graphics sold.

The Genesis stomped the NES because of the huge leap up in graphics. Nintendo then rushed the SNES and once it was out do you know what they most advertised? That's right, it was graphics. Mode 7 is famous from the 16bit era because Nintendo pounded it into gamer's minds. Mode 7 was just a graphics mode that supported scaling and rotation. That along with the improved color palate and transparency effects were well touted.

Not only that, but a number of special chips were created for the SNES as well, and even the Genesis. And they all were about improved graphics. Chrono Trigger just so happened to be both very popular and one of the best looking SNES games. Do you suppose that was entirely a coincidence? Donkey Kong Country made a huge splash, not for gameplay but graphics.

Meanwhile the arcade's claim to fame was graphics, and the decline of the arcades just happened to coincide with the shrinking gap between arcade and home console visuals. Of course, graphics have never been everything. A console with better graphics but no support never does well, and never has. Often it takes a fairly significant gap in graphics to really shake things up. As in NES to Genesis. PS2 to Xbox or GCN just isn't as significant.

I think 3D gaming is reaching this point as well, where no amount of technical update will really change anything, but Sony and Microsoft are continuing to push graphics possibly because they know their first party games (that don't exist on Playstation and shouldn't exist on XBox) can't compete with Nintendo's.

Considering the reaction to the next Unreal engine I'd say graphics have a ways to go yet. People are still drooling over the next generation graphics. Perhaps when all games look like Final Fantasy Advent Children, The Incredibles, or The Polar Express we will be there. Oh, and Sony has a pretty decent 1st party lineup. Grand Turisimo 3 and Ico ring any bells? As for MS, theirs has been spotty for sure, which is why there's been such a big shakeup. Still, they've a few gems in the pile.

But I'm sure Sony or MS would claim they are trying to produce the best tools for the game developers. Especially with MS and their XNA initiative. They might say that hardware is just a tool, and the better the tool the better the results. Why shouldn't developers get the best tools that they can? In the end it's about the games after all. The hardware should be as transparent to the artists as possible, and that's only possible with more power.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Donkey Kong Country made a huge splash, not for gameplay but graphics.

I've always thought that. I never liked that game because of the gameplay....

[Jagos]

We're not refering to the Dance Pad used with DDR which runs on the same technology as the original power pad. The original powerpad was out for Nintendo (I had one) and one of the only game it could play was Track and Feild (and maybe a few others but not many.) Either way they aren't the exact same device only similar.

I know... I was mainly talking about Nintendo making it first but someone using it quite differently for their own purposes. In that respect, Nintendo helped to innovate a whole genre of games.

A console with better graphics but no support never does well, and never has. Often it takes a fairly significant gap in graphics to really shake things up. As in NES to Genesis. PS2 to Xbox or GCN just isn't as significant.

Example - The Turbografx 16 was prolly just as good if not better (in my opinion) than the Sega Genesis. But few if any main streamers (Capcom, Konami...) threw any of their characters onto the poor system. *sniff*

[Lucas]

Chrono Trigger was one of the best looking SNES games. Incorrect by a long shot. Try out Treasure Hunter G.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

I know... I was mainly talking about Nintendo making it first but someone using it quite differently for their own purposes. In that respect, Nintendo helped to innovate a whole genre of games.

Multiple Times. Going back to my whole thing about how Nintendo did many of the past 'genre' defining things....along with having a share of mistakes or things that the public didn't like.

Incorrect by a long shot. Try out Treasure Hunter G.

He said One of the best. Not that he particularly thought it was THE best. And I agree, it was ONE of the best looking games, although there's contenders for what was the best looking, from Seiken Densetsu 3 and a few others.

[ChaosMage]

Someone earlier mentioned innovations that Nintendo had made, and didn't feel like listing some of the ones that stuck, and later did. But they forgot something. The Rumble Pak.

I spent half the day today searching for my rumble pak so I could use it while playing OoT. Alas, half the day was wasted =(

[h4x.m4g3]

Are you saying the rumble pack sucked?
I remember getting it bundled with Starfox 64, sure it drains batteries like hell but it was the first time you experienced vibrations in relation to what happend to the game.