GamerGate? Da fuq is a GamerGate?

[Aldurin]

So I've been watching this fly back and forth on twitter for a while without fully being able to grasp what was actually happening. Then I found http://gamergate.giz.moe/ which I guess is the go-to site for supporters of that hashtag and I've been trying to figure out what's going on.

What I've been able to grasp of the timeline so far:
1. There was a kerfuffle over Kotaku's conflict of interest with Zoey Quinn, due to a writer's past relationship with her.
2. People call for transparency in games media in response, with some amount of this outcry putting excessive blame on Quinn (though I'm not clear about how much).
3. Gamers are dead/not actually dead/you're using the term gamer wrong, #GamerGate (which is calling out the scandal) and #NotYourShield (a hashtag used by minorites that are enraged on when game journalists use racism/sexism to shut down discussion) flood the discussion.
4. ??? After this point I can't keep track, between deleted discussions and seeing the "well then you're against us" rhetoric toward people who are trying to slow down and understand what's happening, I'm having trouble following what's actually fact and what big names are part of what side (confusion intensifying regarding the discussion about Anita Sarkeesian that seems to claim that she's siding with the journalists or trying to capitalize more fame off of the entire scandal, but hell if I know if that's even true).

So I have to ask, can NPF clarify what's going on? With both sides, hopefully, so I can parse the who-the-fuck/what-the-fuck/where-the-fuck of this whole situation.

EDIT: I should probably put up front that my disposition going into this is that most if not all gaming journalism sites have had varying degrees of undisclosed conflicting interests in their work, and that transparency is something that we desperately need to improve the industry as a whole, not just the journalism side.

[Kim]

GamerGate is garbage.

The people mad at Quinn are a bunch of misogynists who already hated her using the fact that she had sex against her.

The original "Gamers Are Dead" article was by Leigh Alexander, who GGer types already hated, and it was actually, "Gamers Are Over" and was about how the idea of gamer as some special identity was gone because the types of people who play games are expanding so much, and devs don't need to exclusively cater to those types anymore.

Not Your Shield was primarily GG using minorities as a shield. It was used far more often to shut down criticism from minorities who weren't using anyone as a shield than to call out people speaking for minorities. I say this from personal experience.

The movement is overwhelmingly conservative. All the major voices are conservative. From Jayne from Firefly who thinks Obama wants Ebola in the US, to a Breitbart muckraker, to an MRA who calls herself a feminist, to Actual Literal Nazis. It's fucked and its leaders (tho GG will deny those people are leaders) are fucked, and even if a GGer calls out the leaders the group turns on the person doing the calling out.

Oh and just for a final bit of info here's a post about GG as a "latent group" http://pastebin.com/t7bVpF9Q

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 PM ----------

What GG boils down to is that a lot of gamers feel threatened by increasing feminist critique around and about games and they've convinced themselves that Obama Sarkeesian and the "Social Justice Warriors" are going to take their games away or ruin them or whatever. At its core, that's what they're most upset about.

[Aerozord]

This is not a topic I have researched heavily nor do I wish to because pretty much anything involving a female game developer brings out the ugliest parts of the gamer community.

Though I did come across an article by Movie Bob (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/moviesandtv/columns/moviebob/12173-Comparing-Film-Journalism-and-Games-Journalism) about it. Which raises a good point, you are naive if you think people in the industry don't know each other. That they dont have friends or loved ones that work on one project or another.

From what I can gather there was no conflict of interest, since while they were involved he didn't write anything about her. This is something they blew way out of proportion and apparently it got into very ugly slut-shaming territory.

[Solid Snake]

I'm playing Persona 4 Arena Ultimax right now and, boy, if there's any series out there that single-handedly justifies the existence of feminist criticism of videogames, it's everything related to Persona 4.

The sad thing about GamerGate is that there is a unique discussion that needs to happen about videogame journalists being too closely intertwined with the companies to make videogames to offer objective criticism. What's bizarre is that the logical conversation that needs to happen has been completely overtaken and usurped by misogynists who are disproportionately directing their rage at women (like Zoey Quinn) and Indie developers, when AAA developers are twenty gadzillion times worse than Indies ever could be. The rage is all about titles like Depression Quest and Gone Home and, honestly, I really don't even give a shit about journalists being 'in bed' with developers of those kinds of titles because, seriously, what's a good review of an Indie title going to do? Increase its sales trajectory by a couple dozen? Even as Indies get more and more exposure these days they still have a long, long way to go before I'm feeling seriously threatened as a gamer by the fact that an Indie title might get a positive review it doesn't deserve because the journalist and the Indie folks like each other.

On the other hand there's all the AAA developers doing all kinds of shady shit, but no one wants to talk about that, because the AAA developers are disproportionately male and there's no sexual intrigue in a scandal that just involves lots of money and no women. Hell, recently Jim Sterling pointed out some incredibly shady shit done by Shadow of Mordor's publicity team to promote that game on Youtube, and it's far far far worse than GamerGate but receiving comparatively little public outrage.

(And lemme get this straight, I love Shadow of Mordor! It's a fucking phenomenal game and may well be my favorite game of 2014. Doesn't mean it was right for them to try to censor Youtuber commentary on their title.)

[Ryong]

The people mad at Quinn are a bunch of misogynists who already hated her using the fact that she had sex against her.

Quinn was where it started happening, but this whole thing was not about her. Granted, what you said is right.

The original "Gamers Are Dead" article was by Leigh Alexander, who GGer types already hated, and it was actually, "Gamers Are Over" and was about how the idea of gamer as some special identity was gone because the types of people who play games are expanding so much, and devs don't need to exclusively cater to those types anymore.

The thing is that several sites suddenly posted articles on the same tone stating the same thing on the same day. It's kind of weird.

Not Your Shield was primarily GG using minorities as a shield. It was used far more often to shut down criticism from minorities who weren't using anyone as a shield than to call out people speaking for minorities. I say this from personal experience.

I saw that being thrown around but I've no idea what it is about.

The movement is overwhelmingly conservative. All the major voices are conservative. From Jayne from Firefly who thinks Obama wants Ebola in the US, to a Breitbart muckraker, to an MRA who calls herself a feminist, to Actual Literal Nazis. It's fucked and its leaders (tho GG will deny those people are leaders) are fucked, and even if a GGer calls out the leaders the group turns on the person doing the calling out.

On both sides, there are far too many people and they are far from being anywhere close to being organized and a lot of ridiculous extremes will pop up.

GGers have vague objectives and anyone who wants to call themselves a leader will have a following in one way or another because that's just how many people there are.

What GG boils down to is that a lot of gamers feel threatened by increasing feminist critique around and about games and they've convinced themselves that Obama Sarkeesian and the "Social Justice Warriors" are going to take their games away or ruin them or whatever. At its core, that's what they're most upset about.

In essence? Yeah, that's it. Sure there's also people mad at terrible journalism and censorship, people who're trying to change the definition of what a game is and so on, but yeah that's pretty much it.

Also, on the AAA vs Indies thing: Indies get a lot more flak than AAA because fuck if I know, but it's not like AAA devs don't get flak. I feel that this whole Zoey Quinn scandal was the last straw on a series of stupid events, not just about gaming journalism but also about a large part of internet culture. It hit all the "right" spots.

[Solid Snake]

The thing is that several sites suddenly posted articles on the same tone stating the same thing on the same day. It's kind of weird.


I don't find it weird at all, if only because I think any sane, rational person-who-likes-videogames reaction to all the bullshit that started being spewed was to desperately, desperately want to distance themselves away from that cesspool.

Like, any decent person who plays videogames would at least want 'gamers' to be 'dead' in the aftermath of that lunacy, so the worst I could do is 'blame' folks like Leigh Alexander of extremely wishful thinking.

Though, to be frank, I think the increasing success of titles like Gone Home, Hate Plus and To The Moon, as well as even AAA games' divergence from the Dudebro model with homosexual relationships in Mass Effect and Dragon Age and the exploration of mature themes and female characters with agency in titles like Last of Us prove the point Leigh was actually making -- that as more people in general are playing videogames, there's more and more room for developers to eschew appealing solely to the minority of privileged heterosexual men who lack sufficient maturity and/or imagination to place themselves in other peoples' shoes for a goddamn change.

It's not that 'gamers' are 'dead', insofar as there's always going to be another Dead or Alive and another Call of Duty 87 Trillion, but moreso that the monopoly the 'gamer' once held is eroding, and if you don't fit that mold there's going to be more and more content in the future that's designed with you in mind, and more and more criticism from journalists who are empathetic to your perspective. Games aren't just for 'gamers' anymore.

[Kim]

The articles were written primarily out of frustration with the abusive nature of the gaming community after it'd been harassing Zoe Quinn and they were fed up with it. Also apparently the non Leigh people that wrote those sometimes like to bite her style.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

The whole thing started out as a major concern about corruption in gaming journalism. It spiraled out of control when the Zoey Quinn incident happened.

Feminist jumped to her rescue. The GG guys thought the feminist movement was protecting and promoting corruption (it wasn't). And the minority of terrible folks on both sides really made things worse to the point where the only way to get the a good grasp of the story is to look at both sides. As both sides are basically refusing to negotiate.

No matter what happens always keep an open mind. Remember that neither side in this war is inherently evil. GG wants the corruption gone and the feminist just want equality (which at this point is only majorly held back from a social stand point).

Force only brings more force. Even when I deal with trolls I still keep a level head. Something both sides need to do. Instead of this back and forth shouting match that's getting no one anywhere and hurts both of their cause.

Kim I know you hate GG but remember that these people are not trying to attack women's rights (although some are). They just want the fake review scores, and under the table paid reviews to stop. Sometimes it really pays to be neutral, it gives you the chance to see the full picture. Sadly I don't see this ending anytime soon.

[Ryong]

You don't find weird that, in a scandal wherein journalism is at the center, several sites having articles in the exact same tone about the exact same thing on the same day, even using nearly the same headlines? Maybe I'm weird, then.

My issue with the "gamers are dead" statement is that it grossly generalizes that every single gamer that isn't one of the new, inclusive gamers who don't require non-stop shooting/brawling/breast bouncing action is, well, like that. Yes, there are a lot of people like that, but that doesn't mean that these ideas that are supposedly the work of the "new" kind of gamer is actually new.

Goddamn I wish I could word this better.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

You don't find weird that, in a scandal wherein journalism is at the center, several sites having articles in the exact same tone about the exact same thing on the same day, even using nearly the same headlines? Maybe I'm weird, then.

My issue with the "gamers are dead" statement is that it grossly generalizes that every single gamer that isn't one of the new, inclusive gamers who don't require non-stop shooting/brawling/breast bouncing action is, well, like that. Yes, there are a lot of people like that, but that doesn't mean that these ideas that are supposedly the work of the "new" kind of gamer is actually new.

Goddamn I wish I could word this better.

Yeah that's really generalizing since not all gamers are like that. If anything the fact that gamers are having this discussion is proof that not all of us are terrible. Heck even the term Gamer is gender neutral.

[Solid Snake]

My issue with the "gamers are dead" statement is that it grossly generalizes that every single gamer that isn't one of the new, inclusive gamers who don't require non-stop shooting/brawling/breast bouncing action is, well, like that.

I think it's crucial to specify that not everyone who enjoys playing videogames is a 'gamer.'

Kim I know you hate GG but remember that these people are not trying to attack women's rights (although some are). They just want the fake review scores, and under the table paid reviews to stop.

If that's really true, why hasn't Shadow of Mordor's bullshit Youtube commentary policies garnered even ten percent of the scrutiny Quinn has?
(HINT: It's because it's not really about inappropriate arrangements between games media and developers.)

[Marc v4.0]

I feel that this whole Zoey Quinn scandal was the last straw on a series of stupid events, not just about gaming journalism but also about a large part of internet culture. It hit all the "right" spots.

The movement was never actually about games journalism, that was literally just a facade they threw up once they started realizing that no one was going to get behind them just straight up harassing and threatening women in gaming. People have bought in to it from there.

[Aerozord]

Is there any actual evidence of any corruption at all? Nearest I can tell people just assumed a female game developer was sleeping with a journalist so obviously he was giving her positive reviews, but in fact he didn't talk about her or her game at all during the time they were dating.

[Kim]

Kim I know you hate GG but remember that these people are not trying to attack women's rights (although some are). They just want the fake review scores, and under the table paid reviews to stop. Sometimes it really pays to be neutral, it gives you the chance to see the full picture. Sadly I don't see this ending anytime soon.

That is not and has never been their concern and I say this as someone who's been semi-regularly interacting with them and also been watching her friends harassed.

Jenn Frank harassed out of writing for "not disclosing" something she did disclose. Even after all doubt that she didn't disclose was erased, GG still stood by harassing her.

Zoe Quinn CONTINUES TO BE HARASSED ON A REGULAR BASIS and yet they insist they aren't doing that, that she's lying, that this isn't about her because her ex fucking COACHED THEM to do that, and it's fucking gaslighting.

GG pressured Intel to stop supporting Gamasutra for publishing Leigh's piece. That isn't about fucking ethics and corruption. That's shitty nerds feeling attacked and lashing out because of it.

Christine Love being attacked, Brianna Wu being driven off Twitter, GGers deciding they're going to "peer review" feminist DiGRA papers even tho these same GGers literally have no idea how peer review actually functions, time and time and time again I see people I've known or people I care about targeted by these fucks and the rest shrug it off as not their problem (when they aren't actively endorsing it which is often). I'm getting transphobic hatemail on a daily basis. At least eight messages today. I see women on the GG side attacked for calling out the men the movement idolizes. A LITERAL GODDAMN NAZI WITH A SWASTIKA TATTOO ON HIS CHEST just joined them and their are a bunch fucking swooning over him cuz he's a hacker.

I don't just hate GG for the fuck of it. I hate GG because they're abusive, hateful, and the world is worse for their presence.

You don't find weird that, in a scandal wherein journalism is at the center, several sites having articles in the exact same tone about the exact same thing on the same day, even using nearly the same headlines? Maybe I'm weird, then.

No, I actually don't, because I've actually interacted with the games journalism industry and I've known for quiet sometime that how gamers perceive it is not and has never been remotely accurate, and because I've interacted with the people in the industry and I know what they're like, something else that gamers generally don't know jack fuck about.

People in the same industry talk to each other. Their conversations can inspire thoughts on subjects among each other. They also react to the same events and at times draw from similar backgrounds when reacting to them.

Also, the title thing. Really common. The Death of Print, The Death of Journalism, The Death of Music, The Death of Radio, Death of the Author. It's a TROPE.

And hey, if you don't do the shit Leigh calls out in her article, THEN SHE PROBABLY WASN'T TALKING ABOUT YOU. It's important to recognize that a vocal portion of the gaming community is fucking awful and while that doesn't mean all gamers are fucking awful, that does mean we have to recognize that awfulness is a part of the community.

If that's really true, why hasn't Shadow of Mordor's bullshit Youtube commentary policies garnered even ten percent of the scrutiny Quinn has?

True fact: I and a bunch of others tried to draw GGs attention to it and when they weren't defending it they were saying that wasn't what GG was about or that they'd get to it "eventually".

[Kyanbu The Legend]

I think it's crucial to specify that not everyone who enjoys playing videogames is a 'gamer.'



If that's really true, why hasn't Shadow of Mordor's bullshit Youtube commentary policies garnered even ten percent of the scrutiny Quinn has?
(HINT: It's because it's not really about inappropriate arrangements between games media and developers.)

That's true, not everyone who games identifies as gamers. Some play casually, others treat it as a hobby. That doesn't however mean generalizing is a good thing to do though. People tend to forget that humans are creatures of chaos capable of just about anything. Tribalism plagues those that don't keep an open mind but not everyone of a group is good or evil nor suffers from that.

Which brings me to my second point. like I said, I've been to both sides of this cyber war. GG isn't full of terrible people. Same goes for Gamasutra.

[Aerozord]

People in the same industry talk to each other. Their conversations can inspire thoughts on subjects among each other. They also react to the same events and at times draw from similar backgrounds when reacting to them.

Pretty much all this. Plus I do disagree with the assumption that knowing someone involved in a project means you will be kind to it. I've seen lots of reviews, lets plays, whatever where they personally know someone that worked on the game and still tear it to shreds.

[Solid Snake]

True fact: I and a bunch of others tried to draw GGs attention to it and when they weren't defending it they were saying that wasn't what GG was about or that they'd get to it "eventually".

Therein lies the hypocrisy: Because Shadow of Mordor is a good AAA game (and it is, in fact, objectively a good game, independently of its bullshit Youtube censorship push), dudebro 'gamers' won't dare criticize it.

Even more importantly than it being a 'good game,' though, it's the kind of game 'gamers' will absolutely let slide, because it fits the dudebro status quo of excessive masculine violence and a complete lack of a social message beyond "Let's kill some orcs" (and it's, essentially, an all-male cast.)

Mind you, I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to Shadow of Mordor's development team because this isn't a case where the developers were actually responsible for censoring media, the developers just chose to hire the wrong company to help advertise their product. Even still, developers will keep hiring that company to handle social media in the future unless folks who play videogames speak up about it, so it's really fucking important that it's called out as bullshit. So it's a shame that 'gamers' really don't give a shit when they're actually confronted with real censorship instead of the imaginary sexually active women-beasts they're raging against.

[Marc v4.0]

Basically, anytime you think that Gamergate might actually have a valid point in their fight against 'corruption', remember that they literally have not expressed a single micro-fuck about AAA publishers throwing cash around at journalists and review sites, and only care about the corruption of female and feminist developers/reviewers/supporters not fucking people for attention or simply expressing an opinion.

This is the level of bullshit that is going on here.

[greed]

Is there any actual evidence of any corruption at all? Nearest I can tell people just assumed a female game developer was sleeping with a journalist so obviously he was giving her positive reviews, but in fact he didn't talk about her or her game at all during the time they were dating.

This seems to be the case Aero. It's just assholes looking for a poor excuse to be assholes.

[Amake]

People are lying about crucial timing of events, about what they want, about whose interests they represent and about who's involved, so if you take everything everyone says at face value it's really hard to guess what's going on. Eventually the cops may figure out a reliable timeline enough to make sure the actual people who are committing actual, organized harassment and defamation get their dues, I hope.

But in the meantime I mostly find it useful to listen closely to people and see what they have to say for themselves. Like when you show something like this to a self-proclaimed "gater":
http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/immortalpictures/gamergategetsresults.jpg
And you get a reaction like That this woman is in fear about some words spoken on the internet is sad but not really of my concern.
...well, you get a sense of what these people are trying to accomplish.

[Aerozord]

Sadly not much the police can do to actually punish Anonymous threats. Thats why this kind of things happens. They know they can't be caught so they can attack someone and feel justified in making someone suffer due to their own persecution complex

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Sadly not much the police can do to actually punish Anonymous threats. Thats why this kind of things happens. They know they can't be caught so they can attack someone and feel justified in making someone suffer due to their own persecution complex

Yeah, it's usually best to keep your guard up (always good to do so anyway, crazy world in all) and try not to let them get to you. Keep a level head and laugh the trolls and haters off.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

Claiming all Pro-GG get chubs on harassing women is like saying all social justice types adhere to the die ciss-het nutter mindset.Just puttin' that out there.

There's more layers to interactions and dumbfucks on both sides of the fence to just dismiss one because they don't agree with the other.

[Osterbaum]

The fact remains that "GG" was started and pushed ahead by misogyny, triggered by the writings and accusations of a bitter ex-boyfriend. If we consider "GG" a movement, then that movement started as misogynists being misogynists and from all appearances continues to be dominated by them. Not all movements are worth participating in.

I'm putting "GG" in quatations because "Gamer Gate" is the most ridiculous name ever.

[Red Mage Black]

Kim, Snake and Marc. Fuck you guys. You know nothing. Nobody gives a flying fuck anymore that Zoe Quinn fucked anyone. As TFYC said about it during a podcast, "It's so banal and boring." Using internet trolls as proof of misogyny in any form is pathetic. Nobody wants to keep women out of gaming. Now, here's some links I"ll give you. If these don't satisfy you, I can come up with a whole lot more. Though I wonder what kinds of excuses you'll come up with for each link.


Had to protect her identity because of Quinn's influence. (http://gabrielaknight.wordpress.com/)
You really think this wasn't about rooting out corruption in Video Game Journalism? Think again. Follow the links in the infograph. (http://i.imgur.com/ZBNMfJ6.jpg)
Just talking shit about Quinn is enough to get you kicked out of the industry. Also story about what she did to TFYC. (http://i.imgur.com/blg9eNM.jpg)
Oh gee, where did all this proof and connections come from? (http://i.imgur.com/qTGiVcE.jpg)
No nepotism or connections huh? (http://i.imgur.com/Wg6iLvL.jpg)
The bullshit Quinn and her peons did to TYFC by disguising themselves as indiegogo admin and hacking the donation page. (http://i.imgur.com/EKNGSDJ.jpg)
Oh gee, more nepotism in the gaming industry. It's okay though if they're going after a guy they don't like. Maybe even lying about his conduct to get him fired because of it. Yes, women DO have that kind of power in the industry and it's bullshit feminists think they don't. (http://imgur.com/a/x0NpT)
This proof just keeps piling up, doesn't it? What's your rebuttle? (http://imgur.com/a/bqhRY)
Another female game dev who can't reveal her identity due to Quinn's influence. (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s644c0)

Correction: Fuck you to all of you who thinks this whole thing is only misogyny. People were only pissed off at first because she was suppose to be in a committed relationship, cheated on her boyfriend and lied about her own morals. It wasn't the fact she had sex at all, but the fact she's a sociopathic hypocrite.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

RMB it's always good to stay level headed, especially when dealing with this current Cyber War. State the evidence to support your case but don't rage out, it can hurt your case. Always take a professional approach.

[Red Mage Black]

I'm tired of trying to act professional when the only competition who puts up any level of professionalism in turn is actually Snake. Whereas Kim will be snarky like it makes things any better and Marc adds absolutely diddly shit besides insulting people who disagree. By the way, I also forgot a few links. Here they are:

Because when the Daily Dot says it, it must be true, right? Didn't do their research. (http://www.dailydot.com/geek/zoe-quinn-depression-quest-gaming-sex-scandal/)
This site actually has all the proof and sources on it, but you probably won't read the whole thing anyway. (http://factualwiley.tumblr.com/post/95257701354)
You may have already seen this, maybe not, but it's educational. Zoe Quinn is evil. (http://thezoepost.wordpress.com/)

I won't apologize for how I titled the links. Feminism has become super exclusive with groups of their own little cliques, filled with talking heads who want nothing more than to ride on the train of a once great movement for their own personal gain. Current examples? Sarkeesian and Quinn.

As I said it once, I'll say it again. No one wants to keep women out of gaming or gaming development and using internet trolls as proof is poor.

[Arhra]

Eh, Zoe Quinn is more or less irrelevant at this stage. It really would be best if everyone just forgot about her.

The big thing to understand about GamerGate is that it is an unplanned movement, so naturally there's going a lot of competing agendas and lack of a clearly articulated aim. Some of the people both for and against it are going to co-opt it to advance their own agendas.

To make my own position clear, harrassment and misogyny are not OK at all. There's been a lot of shit-flinging going on. Gaming journalism is badly in need of a shake-up. The sensationalism, cronyism and outright contempt for their own consumer base is mind boggling.

The most balanced summary of GamerGate I've seen so far can be found here. (http://www.cinemablend.com/games/GamerGate-Everyone-Hates-Each-Other-I-Really-Tired-67039.html) It's fairly concise, so I heartily recommend giving it a read.

[Amake]

Kim, Snake and Marc. Fuck you guys. You know nothing. Nobody gives a flying fuck anymore that Zoe Quinn fucked anyone. As TFYC said about it during a podcast, "It's so banal and boring." Using internet trolls as proof of misogyny in any form is pathetic. Nobody wants to keep women out of gaming. Now, here's some links I"ll give you. If these don't satisfy you, I can come up with a whole lot more. Though I wonder what kinds of excuses you'll come up with for each link.


You really think this wasn't about rooting out corruption in Video Game Journalism? Think again. Follow the links in the infograph. (http://i.imgur.com/ZBNMfJ6.jpg)

Correction: Fuck you to all of you who thinks this whole thing is only misogyny. People were only pissed off at first because she was suppose to be in a committed relationship, cheated on her boyfriend and lied about her own morals. It wasn't the fact she had sex at all, but the fact she's a sociopathic hypocrite.
That one link of yours that I can determine is claiming to be about the movement's agenda (rather than evidence of corruption, pointing out bad behavior amongst the opposition and proving Zoe Quinn is a bad person) does have some good points. It doesn't, however, prove that the numerous virulent misogynists I have seen using the movement as a flimsy excuse to attack women are, in your words, "nobody".

The evidence of corruption may be worth a look, just as the movement may result in some positives like the formation of a small, powerless, independent game journalism site. But I remain suspicious of the movement's ability to or interest in divorcing itself from its widespread use as a tool to abuse and marginalize women.

[Osterbaum]

Nobody wants to keep women out of gaming.
Nobody wants to keep women out of gaming.
Right, nobody wants that. Mmhmm. Seriously if you think that, then you are definitely the one who's been quite selective with their sources.

e: Also, what Amake said.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I think a lot of Gamer Gates initial push was by misogynistic people, and it's very troubling that they go out of their way to target indie devs rather than the straight up bribery AAA devs engage in.

That said, it is pretty disturbing that things like a competition being judged in part by several people with a direct relationship to the developer happened. Phil fish got an award for Fez from people who invested in Fez. That's fucking weird.

It's also kind of off that a lot of people seem to want to dismiss the ex-boyfriend as whiny or bitter, when the behavior he describes is absolutely abusive. Gas lighting, isolation, emotional manipulation. They're all in there, in an account that, as far as I know was verified?

[Kim]

I dismiss him because he actively worked with a group harassing her, her friend, and her family, and coached them on how to more easily get away with it. Dude is fucking abusive as hell.

Also I dunno why the fuck you'd believe any claims about Quinn trying to destroy TFYC when the fuckers have ACTIVELY LIED on a repeated basis about the alleged doxxing and ddosing. The "doxxing" was someone linking a public Facebook post from the TFYC guy because it was gross, and the "DDOS" was Quinn literally just linking their website and the resulting traffic crashing it because their hosting was shitty. And the reason TFYC lies about this is when they'd even admitted this was the case before is because they decided to go full hog on cashing in off GamerGate for their own gain.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I dismiss him because he actively worked with a group harassing her, her friend, and her family, and coached them on how to more easily get away with it. Dude is fucking abusive as hell.

Am I... correct in inferring that you are saying that it's acceptable to dismiss Zoe Quinn's abusive behavior because he acted abusively in return?

Like, I'm mad as fuck at Zoe Quinn. Not because she made a game or fucked men that were in positions to get her positive influence. That's just stuff that happens. I don't like it, but I don't blame her anymore than anyone else in the industry. But, and I am willing to admit I maybe misinformed about this but I haven't seen anyone tell me otherwise yet, her behavior in this relationship and her treatment of other people leads me to believe she's engaged in incredibly dubious behavior in and out of her relationships. Lying, abusing, manipulating. These aren't the actions of a good person.

[Arhra]

The evidence of corruption may be worth a look, just as the movement may result in some positives like the formation of a small, powerless, independent game journalism site. But I remain suspicious of the movement's ability to or interest in divorcing itself from its widespread use as a tool to abuse and marginalize women.
Well Kotaku, Polygon, The Escapist have all revised their ethics guidelines already.

And 4chan raised $20,000 for The Fine Young Capitalists so they can create a game developed by a woman. I think TFYC has some very good points about positive representation being the way to help female game developers. Their Indiegogo campaign is fully funded now so I'm really looking forward to see the finished product.

So some good has come out of it at least.

On the corruption front, there is that e-mail dump?

http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/09/19/gamejournopros-zoe-quinn-email-dump/

I'm not very impressed by Milo Yiannopoulos' later articles though. I think he's sensationalising things in them.

Does anyone have more information about Phil Fish possibly being investigated for racketeering due to the Indie Games Festival judge panel voting his game best of show and them being members of Indie Cade and Polytron and thus standing to profit from it? I haven't heard anything further on that so was it just a rumour?

Or is any news about evidence of corruption for a specific person who isn't Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian or Leigh Alexander? I am finding it troubling that there seems to be this focus on them.

[shiney]

Kim, Snake and Marc. Fuck you guys.

Do it again, go for it. If this is how you're going to participate in the thread or forum, then I'll help see you out. Go ahead and get mad, but keep it civil, or get the fuck out of here. This community doesn't need people being assholes because of a disagreement.

[Kim]

fucked men that were in positions to get her positive influence

I can't believe you think she actually did this.

*rubs temples*

And it's not that I'm excusing her abusive behavior. It's that someone so openly abusive is Really Hard To Trust when they claim their ex is The Real Abuser.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I can't believe you think she actually did this.

*rubs temples*

Didn't mean to suggest I think she did. I don't give a shit she did or not.
Unless you mean to suggest you don't believe she actually cheated, because that totally happened. Whether or not it was for direct influence is I guess up for debate, but it's not a topic that interests me when we have an industry where a company can literally hand money and favors, or even actively and openly extort reviewers for positive air time.

I can't believe you don't care that she abused her boyfriend. Manipulated him and other people. Attacked people who had never done anything to her.
Her behavior has been terrible. Before and after this whole debacle.

[Ryong]

I like this one. (http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/)

Both sides have had really, really terrible people in them, there's no question about it. Some good things have happened as I'm sure a lot of people will learn from this once it settles down, but currently it's been terrible. There are people on both sides who want to reach a consensus, who want to discuss these things but, more often than not, when they look at their group they see a lot of hate and if they try and talk with the other side they get the extremists, so a lot of these go silent.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

And it's not that I'm excusing her abusive behavior. It's that someone so openly abusive is Really Hard To Trust when they claim their ex is The Real Abuser.

I have not seen anything to suggest that his claims were illegitimate or fabricated. If you have, I would love to see it.

I am not going to dismiss the story of an abused person because they reacted badly to being abused.

[pochercoaster]

Girlfriend cheats on boyfriend, girlfriend works in games and starts receiving rape and death threats... Seems reasonable, and the fact that women in gaming (and, indeed, women outside of gaming who side with feminism) are continually targeted with threats of violence certainly does not undermine the movement at all. Hey, let's just doxx every person who has ever cheated on anyone else. That'll certainly clear up corruption in journalism or whatever movement I want to use to cover up my misogyny.

[Kim]

I don't think coaching 4chan on how to harass your ex-girlfriend for months and even how to try and get away with it falls under the qualifications of "reacting badly".

And regardless, whether or not Zoe did, I think it's pretty clear GamerGate has accomplished nothing along these lines and doesn't really have an interest in the abuse besides as another avenue to attack someone they already hated.

EDIT: Also worth clarifying is that my experience is abusive people trying to recharacterize their victims as the abusers and so when I know someone is abusive, as Eron clearly, clearly is, I don't trust him cuz I've seen how abusive people try to frame these things.

[pochercoaster]

I don't think coaching 4chan on how to harass your ex-girlfriend for months and even how to try and get away with it falls under the qualifications of "reacting badly".

Seriously, who actually does that? How does that in any way even vaguely resemble a sane response? How is that categorized as anything other than revenge?

[Kim]

Seriously, who actually does that? How does that in any way even vaguely resemble a sane response? How is that categorized as anything other than revenge?

Yeah, like, I've seen how people I've known for a fact had been abused went about calling their abusers out, and I've seen abusive people try to frame their victims as abusive, and this resembles more the latter than the former.

[pochercoaster]

I'm just gonna quote my husband from an email exchange we had last week about the whole situation because he's more eloquent than me:

they are an inevitable byproduct of progress unfortunately. They live in a world wherein progress has afforded them the great technological advantages necessary to broadcast there views to a large audience, but have not benefited from the social progress that has given women more agency. Unfortunately they weren't smart enough to catch on to the changing times and still operate under outdated assumptions of gender roles while they continue to live in a society wherein such constructs are increasingly meaningless. The inherent contradiction of their worldview and their world makes them highly agitated and stressed, while their lack of intellectual coping skills makes this state of affairs practically chronic.Maybe some sort of naturally occurring selection process will weed them out over the next few decades as more women become aware that they don't have to put up with this shit, and less men continue to act like these people so as not to be completely pushed out of the dating pool.

[Marc v4.0]

People were only pissed off at first because she was suppose to be in a committed relationship, cheated on her boyfriend and lied about her own morals. It wasn't the fact she had sex at all, but the fact she's a sociopathic hypocrite.

This has nothing at all to do with gaming, and is absolutely nobody else business but the parties involved, and dragging it all out into the internet and coaching a known hate group, that already harassed her and others, into using it as further fuel to target her is indefensible, and anyone who supports that is human garbage.

The participants and perpetrators of this movement and their actions are -at best- completely ignorant of the movement's anti-women agenda and at worst fucking -proud- of being a hate group with the intention of forcing women from gaming and hassling anyone that disagrees.

It is nothing but up-jumped misogynists and the unfortunate people who actually bought their lies that they were about combating 'corruption'. Which is all very surprising, considering the people they continue to target with their hate group speech can often times barely scrape together money for rent, much less throw a multi-million dollar press-only release party, or strong arm review sites or youtube review networks into towing their lines with threats of blacklisting.

Hope this helps

[pochercoaster]

like being a woman in indie games is so fabulous guys i need to get on this "benefitting from journalistioc corruption" shit i heard they gave zoe quinn a pony and like a wheelbarrow full of money and chocolate and rainbows, which upon fuirther contemplation rightfully belongs to all the male gamers shivering outside in the cold like orphans in a charles dickens novel

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Zoe's story as far as it relates to gaming journalism is essentially speaking the smallest of the small, and she has definitely seen an incredible overreaction, born from active or passive misogynistic tendencies.
Phil Fish is a bigger story. AAA developers directly bribing or extorting is a bigger story. These should be the issues Gamers who actually want their industry to be honest with them should be talking about, but they're not. Exactly because Zoe Quinn is a woman.

Yeah, like, I've seen how people I've known for a fact had been abused went about calling their abusers out, and I've seen abusive people try to frame their victims as abusive, and this resembles more the latter than the former.

If it is something that can be linked to I'd like to see where he's been coaching, since that is obviously suspect behavior for an abused person.

[POS Industries]

I'm kind of impressed by how shockingly tolerable /v/ has become ever since moot kicked GG discussion off of 4chan. Unsurprisingly, the very same people who were making the place unbearable for years happened to be the ones swept up in this nonsense, and making them fuck off to their own imageboard has made it possible to actually talk about video games again.

Says a lot when the people who've dedicated years to making it impossible to discuss or even enjoy video games are the ones primarily behind a movement that claims to be saving video games from people who want to talk about and enjoy them.

On the corruption front, there is that e-mail dump?

http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/09/19/gamejournopros-zoe-quinn-email-dump/
Not really seeing evidence of corruption here. Seems like it's entirely just a discussion of whether or not someone's personal relationship drama is news (it's not) and then some people expressing their personal opinions on the matter. Despite what Milo says, journalists interacting with one another isn't corruption, and even if it were I'm pretty damn sure he'd be super guilty of it himself.

[Ryong]

*ahem*

I like this one. (http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/)

There are people on both sides who want to reach a consensus, who want to discuss these things but, more often than not, when they look at their group they see a lot of hate and if they try and talk with the other side they get the extremists, so a lot of these go silent.

Also this (http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/10/09/gamergate-is-not-a-hate-group-its-a-consumer-movement/).

[pochercoaster]

I'm kind of impressed by how shockingly tolerable /v/ has become ever since moot kicked GG discussion off of 4chan. Unsurprisingly, the very same people who were making the place unbearable for years happened to be the ones swept up in this nonsense, and making them fuck off to their own imageboard has made it possible to actually talk about video games again.

okay but i thought gaming was actually about people's private sex lives, or did i get in the wrong line here

[Kim]

If it is something that can be linked to I'd like to see where he's been coaching, since that is obviously suspect behavior for an abused person.

Basically Zoe shared a bunch of IRC dumps from the people harassing her and I can't find the one I had in mind (I thought it was in the storify but it wasn't) but he was basically coaching them to keep saying it's not about Zoe because it'd fuck GG over if people believed it was.

It's why a bunch of them basically started going, "Zoe who?" whenever anyone calls them out on their harassment of her, which is gaslighty as fuck.

[Aerozord]

Looking over this group am I the only one reminded of PETA? Luring people in with high minded ideals but are ultimately just a group about spreading hate and terrorizing people

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Basically Zoe shared a bunch of IRC dumps from the people harassing her and I can't find the one I had in mind (I thought it was in the storify but it wasn't) but he was basically coaching them to keep saying it's not about Zoe because it'd fuck GG over if people believed it was.

Okay, wait.
Are you saying that he told them "Continue harassing Zoe but also say that it is not about her because that hurts the movement." Or was he saying "Don't harass Zoe because it hurts the movement."?

Like, if a portion of this movement makes the conscious decision that they don't want to involve themselves in the portion that is harassing Zoe because it hurts what they view as their cause, that doesn't seem to be... horrible? I wouldn't want to be associated with that kind of behavior either, exactly because it is morally repugnant.
I'm familiar with a portion of the dumps you're referring to, though his involvement in any of them is news to me that makes it apparent that I haven't seen it all. The portions I saw seemed to mostly be the same kind of actions and conversations that a PR Firm might take. I even specifically recall lines from one of them where they discussed the harassment of Zoe in a pretty negative light because they knew it was A) Wrong and B) Harmful for the public perception of the movement they'd been trying to champion.

[Aerozord]

Actually I dont think either of the actual parties involved are guilty of anything. It looks like rather normal messy break-up stuff to me.

Its how other people reacted that makes me want to vomit blood in disgust. Even if both sides are 100% guilty neither deserves this level of abuse.

[Marc v4.0]

Okay, wait.
Are you saying that he told them "Continue harassing Zoe but also say that it is not about her because that hurts the movement." Or was he saying "Don't harass Zoe because it hurts the movement."?

The first one. That's also why they came up with #NotYourShield, to use 'minority voices' to shut down other minority voices speaking against them.

Fun Fact: A lot of the original 'Minority' twitter accounts that started #NotYourShield were sockpuppets


Actually I dont think either of the actual parties involved are guilty of anything.

He is 100% directly guilty for airing it all to the internet and to a group of active harassers already targeting her, and then guilty or remaining silent and shrugging his shoulders when that increased the magnitude of her harassment n-fold

[Red Mage Black]

Feminism is cherry picking the worst of GG.

GG is cherry picking the worst of the whole thing.

There is some advice from everyone's favorite(read:hated) man on youtube: Thunderf00t.
"If you are being sent death threats and rape threats online, do not post it on your tumblr or twitter or any social media. Report it to the FBI."

Adding to that, because as soon as you report it all in public, including that you 'alerted the FBI', they will 'go to ground'.

Sounds like some pretty good advice to me. Not only does it allow you to ignore the trolls, but it also allows you the smug satisfaction of knowing some assholes will get their comeuppance. Less assholes ruining an otherwise good idea for a movement? Sounds like then you can get some actual stuff done.

And Marc? No, not all of them were sockpuppets and I'd like to see your proof they were.

[pochercoaster]

My advice is don't send rape and death threats.

Zoe Quinn, Sarkeesian etc. did report their death and rape threats to the police. What does that have to do with anything? What does the victim's response in this situation have anything to do with anything?

Who cares if it's a minority of people who sent them threats? Why aren't you outraged that women are being unjustly subjected to threats of violence?

This is the natural consequence of gaming and tech industries being dominated by men. At best, women and minorities in these industries are subjected to chronic low-grade sexism and discrimination, and at worst, women are continually sent threats of violence so severe that they are forced out of their home. This is not cherry-picking- this what people who are discriminated against live with every day in our current society. It's so pervasive that apparently some people need this explained to them instead of seeing it clearly for what it is- the death rattles of privileged white mens' dominance in a domain that used to be exclusively their's. WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY.

[Premmy]

Just putting this out front to be addressed on it's own.
As I've seen it. Gamer Gate Primarily started when Eron Gronji posted his blog about him and Zoe Quinn's relationship. 4chan latched on to it and (Now this is SUPER important) 4CHAN DOESN'T LEGITIMATELY CARE ABOUT ANYTHING they decided to blow it up. They got their psyops Anonymous mojo up, Using tried and true tactics they've used before. Presented it as being about corruption because they know that'd get some people's attention,and played on Latent Nerdrage at "THA EVILSJWS AND THE GHOST OF JACK THOMPSON" coming to take your games or "Censor" them. Some Dick From Firefly named it GamerGate and henceforth it became uber popular. 4chan members then created #notyourshield as a means of deflection of a lot of the undeniable horribleness going on. A lot of dummy accounts were made, some actual real people got pulled in for a variety of different reasons(most of them related to different permutations of what I call "BlerdRage") Zoe Quinn posts things(Chatlogs, Screenshots) Gamer Gate repeatedly claims "False Flags"(The idea that it's a Secret SJW conspiracy and noone's getting attacked accept THEM and that it was always about "Journalistic Integrity") Websites go up, the beast churns. Things get kind of quiet on the surface, but it still churns. Even MORE Obviously dickish conservatives jump in and boost it up due to the inescapable anti-liberal aspects of the movement. Things broil and switch and on and on it goes.

See, now, Here's the most important part of all this. The reason everyone saying Gamer Gate is just kind of universally horrible can say so and generally be right.
Some Shit is Just Obvious.

We all know what "Passive Aggressive" is we all know what "Backhanded Compliments" are, we all know that you don't have to shoot a guy to kill him. Sometimes it's best to just feed him the "right" food and be real nice to him.
Just because you're not being obviously evil doesn't mean you're not doing bad things, explicitly, or implicitly
It's not just the guy holding. The guy next to him who walks away before the trigger is pulled is just as guilty.

Gamer Gate is generally up to some genuinely horrible shit. And Deciding that "The Cause" is more important than the actual harm being done says way more than a thousand 'Well i disagree, but.."s ever will. It says you don't really care about the people hurt. It says Some part of you agrees. Gamer Gate is organized as fuck and all they REALLY had to do, if they weren't, on some level, down with the pain they cause, was direct that organization to stopping it. Loudly shouting down harassers, or(Real Important) Go ahead and split off.

Gaters actively discourage "Splitting" to "Maintain the Power of the Movement" For all the War psyops bullshit the channers spread, this isn't an actual fucking War. It's not The Rebel South or Nazi Germany. Noone's going to fucking DIE off of "Corruption in Games Journalism". You're not being conscripted on threat of imprisonment or death. You can walk away from that steaming pile of shit. You can wait for it to cool off and try again. You can Start a Counter Movement and be better. You can do a whole lot of fucking shit besides throw in with them.

If the Fucking Klan decides to start actively working to fix some minor problem in your local community, something that inconveniences some people you say."Hey, Klu Klux Klan, that's a good idea. We're going to steal it, brazenly, openly, We're going to call ourselves "Klan Robbers" because FUCK YALL! We'll make positive change in the world, both by fixing the problem and by actively screwing you dickheads over. Two birds, ya racist shits!"
And Marc? No, not all of them were sockpuppets and I'd like to see your proof they were. "Alot of"=/= "all"

[Marc v4.0]

"Alot of"=/= "all"

This needs repeating.

So, sorry, I can't prove all of them were sockpuppets because that's not what I said!


Thanks to 4chan's WONDERFUL topic turnover speed, any evidence I could possible have has been completely gobbled up by time and turnover, but of course you already knew that. I'm sure screenshots of it are floating around somewhere but I really have 0 interest in spending my time digging them up for you to promptly ignore them or shift the goalposts around to make me jump through more hoops trying to 'prove' something that you have already very clearly and strongly decided that you aren't going to believe no matter what.

Hope this helps!

[shiney]

All I know is, if 4chan is involved, I sure as hell don't want to be.

Far as I can see this whole thing is ostensibly about gender equality in the gaming industry used as a front to do what 4chan always does, harass and intimidate people online because it's fun. And get everyone's briefs in a tizzy because that's also what they do, and then deflect valid criticism through the use of misdirection, aforementioned sock puppets, and general dickbaggery.

All the while perpetuating myths and stereotypes that they claim to be combating, because after all someone's private sex life is definitely germane to the issue.

Is this essentially it?

[pochercoaster]

All I know is, if 4chan is involved, I sure as hell don't want to be.

Far as I can see this whole thing is ostensibly about gender equality in the gaming industry used as a front to do what 4chan always does, harass and intimidate people online because it's fun. And get everyone's briefs in a tizzy because that's also what they do, and then deflect valid criticism through the use of misdirection, aforementioned sock puppets, and general dickbaggery.

All the while perpetuating myths and stereotypes that they claim to be combating, because after all someone's private sex life is definitely germane to the issue.

Is this essentially it?

Yes.

[Marc v4.0]

All I know is, if 4chan is involved, I sure as hell don't want to be.

Far as I can see this whole thing is ostensibly about gender equality in the gaming industry used as a front to do what 4chan always does, harass and intimidate people online because it's fun. And get everyone's briefs in a tizzy because that's also what they do, and then deflect valid criticism through the use of misdirection, aforementioned sock puppets, and general dickbaggery.

All the while perpetuating myths and stereotypes that they claim to be combating, because after all someone's private sex life is definitely germane to the issue.

Is this essentially it?

Yes, that is essentially it. Some people *COUGH* get themselves all up in a huge huff, though, if you don't drink the koolaid about it actually being some SJW FEMINISTS MANHATER plot to ruin gamers and gaming, though.

[pochercoaster]

It's kind of sad that saying women shouldn't be sent death and rape threats = SJW FEMINIST like that's just being a decent human being. I don't approve of people being murdered or raped it's pretty basic.

[Premmy]

There's a lot of ANGRY people about to respond, you know who you are. Before you do that, please know that you can actually come talk to me privately first and get that out. I'll prolly use "fuck" a whole lot, because that's how I talk, but there's definitely a space for you to work that stuff out in a healthy way. I'm heading to work in a few but I'll pick back up with you in eight or so hours.

[shiney]

Please, let's leave the snide or snarky remarks (and coughing :p) out of it best as we can because that only degrades the discussion. It doesn't become us as a community to resort to that, even if we're upset.

People are going to react differently, and we have systems in place to lodge our objections to those reactions, which has been used today twice for this thread alone and acted upon. Let's leave it at that.

[pochercoaster]

Just to be clear, while my remarks sound snide they are also 100% serious. A lot of people defending GG literally don't understand the gravity of the harassment women face in the gaming industry and that often gets ignored in the discussion when it is a central, and indeed, its defining point.

Like especially the hilarious conclusion that Zoe Quinn was benefitting from all this somehow. Or the idea that how victims choose to respond to harassment is any way more important than the harassment happening in the first place. Or that this is a chronic and persistent problem yet is characterized as an anomaly. Or that online harassment has forced people out of their careers and in other online circles, has resulted in suicide as a response to the bullying.

Edit: To be MORE clear I don't know if this is directed at me but I am just saying this 'cause. I haven't told anyone to f-off and IMO am being pretty generous here, it's hard to be polite when you keep watching members of your own gender being harassed but I'm doing my best. I ain't being uncivil.

[Premmy]

I'm actually being legit there. Watching #Notyourshield take form kinda softened me a bit.

[shiney]

You have a friend and supporter in me, poch, I just want to be clear that I would prefer arguments and discussions remain civil because that's really the only way viewpoints can evolve and people can learn. As it stands, absent a few notable (and, viewed through historical perspective, relatively benign) exceptions I like this thread and I think the message that underlies everything, "Hey guess what women are actual human beings and simply put this conduct is unacceptable full stop no justification" is one that really needs to be widespread.

Shame that there is a huge contingent of people involved that are deliberately trying to muddy those waters by turning people against one another, and worse off, that they are doing it for their own amusement.

[Aerozord]

To me its already been muddied to the point of uselessness. Sure there are some people still trying to pry something positive from this whole mess but its devolved to the point that even if an actual point emerges anyone with any sense would have already distanced themselves from it.

It just shows how insulary the internet is, and how effective a tool it is for bullying and terrorism.

[Ryong]

I'm just going to tell everyone to read the links I posted again because the TL;DR approach to GamerGate is not "misogynists being terrible and literally nothing else".

[Marc v4.0]

Except yes, yes it is. Me and Kim were both there at the very front of this when it first exploded, we saw the posts leading up to the creation of #NotYourShield as a deflection tactic, we've read the horrible logs and seen the images of their threads coordinating targets based on being "SJW Shills", people shouted and spammed out because they expressed a desire to refocus on ACTUAL, REAL AND TANGIBLE corruption instead of being concerned of 'SJW' writings all the time. Discussing a blanket policy of 'Zoe Who?' as a deflection to accusations, someone even asked if this meant they were going to stop harassing her, and were happily told that it would continue and this was only meant to further muddle issues in their favor.

It started out as nothing more than the misogynist hate-spewing of channers, and hasn't changed since except in that they have SOMEHOW convinced others that there actually is a legitimate Indie/SJW conspiracy to ruin gaming forever.

There is nothing else to GamerGate itself as a movement. I don't need to read about it, this has been our daily background radiation SINCE IT STARTED.

[Solid Snake]

Kim, Snake and Marc. Fuck you guys.

Welp.
You clearly understand how to advance a rational argument.

(This snarky comment doubles as "Welp, I'm done with this thread," because gosh, if that's the actual initial and immediate, unprovoked, reaction to what's been said in this thread so far, then there's no point in even trying here.)

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

Continuously claiming that the gamergate movement is purely about threatening, demeaning, and harassing women is disingenuous and, frankly, willing ignorance for the sake of ignorance. Shifting the narrative about to them continuously is tiresome and a display of pants-on-head density. That said, Quinn and Sarkeesian are flies on the wall at this point. I'll say once again: if it wasn't from Eron and Quinn it would've been started from something else. It's not about them at this point. It was a powder keg waiting to explode so it was wrong time wrong people situation. I may personally find Quinn to be a disgusting histrionic opportunist and Sarkeesian to be the prime example of a snake-oil selling swindler, but does that mean I support them being threatened in any way? No, not at all. I simply have no fucks to give about them.

Now, the people who are serious about it have long since tried to enforce ceasing the harassment of certain parties and people in general. That said, there are outliers acting outside of the rules simply to stir up shit and touch the poop. This applies to both camps.

Dunno how many times that needs to be addressed, 'cause digging in and stating they're the monsters, muh soggy knees muh soggy knees! plug the ears la-la-la-la-la-la muh soggy knees! is getting a tad insipid. Hell, I'd love to see a conversation without the word misogyny bantered about like it actually means something in a conversation anymore. But I digress.

When an Executive states that supporters of a movement, which includes me by proxy, are equivalent to ISIS I'll get irritated. When a bumbling game writer claims supporters of GG willingly partakes in child sexual abuse to push rhetoric? I'll really get my hackles raised. When some schlub says that "gamers are worse than ISIS. I'll get rightly pissed-the-fuck off.

When talentless (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_ov er.php) vacuous (http://gamasutra.com/blogs/DevinWilson/20140828/224450/A_Guide_to_Ending_quotGamersquot.php) blogger (http://www.destructoid.com/why-does-the-term-gamer-feel-important--280451.phtml) hack (http://kotaku.com/we-might-be-witnessing-the-death-of-an-identity-1628203079) masquerade (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/08/the-death-of-the-gamers-and-the-women-who-killed-them/) as (http://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/gaming-is-leaving-gamers-behind) journalists, and yet have a terrible time understanding what the word Recuse means and how to adhere to it, decree that gamers are dead/sick/disgusting/terrible/dead/killed/left behind/enter word here..well then, I'm going to get real pissed. At the core all that is wanted is integrity and honesty in articles. Objective reviews, not sensationalist advocacy journalism pap. Transparency.

Also, this is a special link just for you Marc (http://plebcomics.tumblr.com/post/99437318804/my-boy-transparency-and-integrity-in-gaming).

[Ryong]

And what became of the people who wanted to refocus on the ACTUAL, REAL AND TANGIBLE corruption?

They splintered off but are still part of the movement. This is a goddamn huge thing. You have to stop assuming that anyone who disagrees with you fits the bill of privileged, straight, white, rich dudebro who uses the internet as a way to spread hate and vitriol.

Yes, a lot of terrible things were done, but you claim that literally everyone who says they're part of the movement is scum. Why is the idea of shades of gray so hard to understand?

Also, this is a special link just for you Marc (http://plebcomics.tumblr.com/post/99437318804/my-boy-transparency-and-integrity-in-gaming).

The irony of making a strawman out of a group of people who accuse others of being strawmen is kind of overwhelming.

[Doc ock rokc]

Marc You're throwing some mighty hard accusations without evidence. I mean I look at some of the screen shots saved from the stuff and while yeah there is a small group of misogynist dicks here and there there are people seeking out corruption. Both sides have their childish dickweeds. This isn't necessarily new but judging an entire group based off of one or two people is just childish.

[Marc v4.0]

Yeah, I think I am with Snake at this point. The point where actually having seen all this going down live and keeping up with it painstakingly every day since it started isn't considered valid enough.

Thankfully, just like every other barely-functioning and hate-spewing disaster 4chan decides to start, it will run itself into the ground and go up in flames soon enough, and then maybe a proper movement can get off the ground that goes after the big names that actually perpetuate corruption in the industry instead of just hassling powerless Indy devs and people who just want equal representation in gaming. Have fun associating yourself with a movement whose core happily accepts support from and defends people like weev, a literal fucking nazi.

[Solid Snake]

Continuously claiming that the gamergate movement is purely about threatening, demeaning, and harassing women is disingenuous and, frankly, willing ignorance for the sake of ignorance. Shifting the narrative about to them continuously is tiresome and a display of pants-on-head density.

I guess I should just keep waiting for Shadow of Mordor's team to receive rape and death threats, then.

Your arguments remind me of the same kinds of arguments moderate Republicans advance when progressives criticize the Republican Party's extremist, fringe elements (like the Tea Party.) Sure, absolutely, not everyone involved in this GamerGate thing is a raging misogynistic fuckwit. But there's enough raging misogynistic fuckwits characterizing the movement that you should be asking yourself whether GamerGate actually represents what you think it does, as a whole, in the aggregate.

To turn your perspective around on its head for a second, let me just ask this question: Given all the publicly known examples of extremely shady shit AAA developers and publishers have been doing in the industry for years now, why didn't GamerGate become a thing until Zoey Quinn?

It's clear that there's a rational argument against developer and media collusion buried somewhere deep within the bowels of this ugly movement. I've acknowledged that from the outset of my participation in this thread. But misogynists, who make up a healthy percentage of this movement, never had to 'hijack' GamerGate because GamerGate started on the utterly flawed premise that we had the right to read an ex-boyfriend's angry, incomprehensible tirades about his girlfriend's private sex life. It's almost akin to a hypothetical Internet Free Speech / Net Neutrality campaign finding its footing in men's passionate defenses of the Jennifer Lawrence nude leaks.

[synkr0nized]

So I have to ask, can NPF clarify what's going on? With both sides, hopefully, so I can parse the who-the-fuck/what-the-fuck/where-the-fuck of this whole situation.

No, don't...

[Doc ock rokc]

Yeah, I think I am with Snake at this point. The point where actually having seen all this going down live and keeping up with it painstakingly every day since it started isn't considered valid enough.

Thankfully, just like every other barely-functioning and hate-spewing disaster 4chan decides to start, it will run itself into the ground and go up in flames soon enough, and then maybe a proper movement can get off the ground that goes after the big names that actually perpetuate corruption in the industry instead of just hassling powerless Indy devs and people who just want equal representation in gaming. Have fun associating yourself with a movement whose core happily accepts support from and defends people like weev, a literal fucking nazi.

Right so now you're on it because of 4chan's backing? 4chan is a festering shithole of all kinds of crap but sometimes but you so easily forget when 4chan systematically found and reported two kids who killed an endangered turtle. (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/operation-shell-shock) Yeah these guys are the worst of the worst at times but remember They think the journalists are acting worse then THEY are. Maybe that should send up a warning sign.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

To turn your perspective around on its head for a second, let me just ask this question: Given all the publicly known examples of extremely shady shit AAA developers and publishers have been doing in the industry for years now, why didn't GamerGate become a thing until Zoey Quinn?


Right/wrong place at the right/wrong time, honestly. As I said, it was a slow buildup. Kinda one of those 'We've come to expect this behavior from AAA studios, but to see it happen on the indie scene? Knife to the back, man.' reactions.

But now the push is heading towards holding big names accountable for their sleazy wheeling 'n dealings. From the bottom to the top. I can get behind that.

[Marc v4.0]

Right so now you're on it because of 4chan's backing? 4chan is a festering shithole of all kinds of crap but sometimes but you so easily forget when 4chan systematically found and reported two kids who killed an endangered turtle. (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/operation-shell-shock) Yeah these guys are the worst of the worst at times but remember They think the journalists are acting worse then THEY are. Maybe that should send up a warning sign.

It originated with them, not just had their backing. There is not "Oh, NOW you say.." because I was out of ever being ok supporting Gamergate because THEY CREATED IT. All anyone else ever really did was give it a name, and Adam Baldwin is already one of those trash radical conservatives that other Cons try and tell you are 'fringe'.

I don't think I need to remind you that Channers also think black people, trans people, gay men and women, and anyone that isn't a channer in general is worse than them.

There is no red flag because

...this whole thing is ostensibly about gender equality in the gaming industry used as a front to do what 4chan always does, harass and intimidate people online because it's fun.

Is exactly what is going on here and

All I know is, if 4chan is involved, I sure as hell don't want to be.

is also super fucking true!

[Amake]

Maybe a tangent here, but I want to see if I've got this straight.

On the extremist side, we have group A: people for gamergate throwing abuse, threats, harassment, hate and lies at people they want to abuse, threaten, harass, hate and silence. And group B: people against gamergate doing the same things to people they don't like, including but possibly not limited to group A.

And on the moderate side we have group C: people for gamergate making excuses for, ignoring or downplaying group A to allow gamergate to be a label under which to work for better games journalism. And group D: people against gamergate trying to reduce the number of people who get abused.

Now, the only problem with siding against gamergate that I can see is maybe group D legitimizes B the same way C works for A. That may be something to think carefully about. But siding with gamergate means you think C's goals are more important than D's. That's some massively screwed up priorities. If your argument includes the phrase "Nobody deserves that, but" then it may be time to reconsider your life choices.

[Solid Snake]

Right/wrong place at the right/wrong time, honestly. As I said, it was a slow buildup. Kinda one of those 'We've come to expect this behavior from AAA studios, but to see it happen on the indie scene? Knife to the back, man.' reactions.


This right here basically explains the difference in our reactions: You believe the fact that Zoey Quinn sparked GamerGate is mere coincidence, whereas I think the evidence pretty clearly establishes it wasn't coincidental at all.

And group B: people against gamergate doing the same things to people they don't like, including but possibly not limited to group A.

Going to go out on a limb here and suggest that I really doubt feminists and progressives are sending unprovoked rape and/or death threats against the GamerGate crowd.

[Ryong]

Given all the publicly known examples of extremely shady shit AAA developers and publishers have been doing in the industry for years now?

My take: Misogyny by some, followed by the censoring of opinions and a discrepancy in what journalism thinks their public is and what it actually is and the fact that it's easier to focus on a single indie dev than on an entire company. It's not like this was the only terrible thing that happened in these past years, remember Kane and Lynch 2, or Mass Effect 3, or the Dead Island bust or the Assassin's Creed "female characters are hard to make" Unity thing? This is quite obviously a lot bigger than any of these, but these happened.

I don't think I need to remind you that Channers also think black people, trans people, gay men and women, and anyone that isn't a channer in general is worse than them.

I fucking go to 4chan and the worst you'll see of me is telling Nintendo fanboys that the Vita actually has games. 4chan also happens to have a /lgbt/ board which I'm pretty sure is thriving.

[Solid Snake]

I fucking go to 4chan and the worst you'll see of me is telling Nintendo fanboys that the Vita actually has games. 4chan also happens to have a /lgbt/ board which I'm pretty sure is thriving.

*sigh*
I wish I was a bit better at remembering the names of logical fallacies, because I'm pretty sure your personal, anecdotal experience enjoying 4Chan and being a decent person on 4Chan is in no way relevant to ascertaining 4Chan's general reputation.

It's directly akin to me saying, "I'm a man and I'm a nice guy who wouldn't dare hurt a woman, therefore women must be crazy when they attack men in general!" No, that's just not the way it works. When people here are attacking 4Chan, they're not attacking you or your personal experiences on 4Chan or whatever the fuck you may enjoy about it, they're attacking 4Chan as a whole, which has a well-deserved reputation that has nothing to do with saving endangered sea turtles one time or chatting about the Vita.

[Marc v4.0]

I fucking go to 4chan and the worst you'll see of me is telling Nintendo fanboys that the Vita actually has games. 4chan also happens to have a /lgbt/ board which I'm pretty sure is thriving.

You self-identify as a channer, inundate yourself in that culture, way of thinking, wear it as a badge of pride and honer in your social circles, then participate in their raids and trolling excursions?

No?

Then I wasn't talking about you, was I?

If you are going to get hyper-defensive about someone straight up telling the ugly truth about how garbage a website is, I would highly suggest you don't associate with that website

[Ryong]

Yeah sure, it is anecdotal evidence, but the fact is that I'm not alone like that there. There are boards for a lot of different things, it's as if you just claimed the internet has nothing good in it because.

[Amake]

Going to go out on a limb here and suggest that I really doubt feminists and progressives are sending unprovoked rape and/or death threats against the GamerGate crowd.
Well, allowing for the most generous/fanciful explanations available for why people saying that gamergate is a hurting people are wrong.

[shiney]

I think we can agree for the purpose of this discussion that the moniker 'channers' refers to the people who do the horrible stuff and not the people who avoid it. 4chan isn't known as a home for thoughtful discourse. It's known as the acne-riddled grundle of the internet. Despite that there are genuine people who go there for other reasons, we aren't talking about those people and by extension, aren't talking about you.

[Marc v4.0]

I think we can agree for the purpose of this discussion that the moniker 'channers' refers to the people who do the horrible stuff and not the people who avoid it. 4chan isn't known as a home for thoughtful discourse. It's known as the acne-riddled grundle of the internet. Despite that there are genuine people who go there for other reasons, we aren't talking about those people and by extension, aren't talking about you.

That said I think it might be a good idea, if you you don't like being associated with the majority of personalities that frequent 4chan and give it its reputation, then not associating with them at all is your best bet.

I mean, hey, I use the SomethingAwful forums for easy access to guilds in MMOS and Minecraft servers, and some dev interactions, and while I try to avoid shitty parts of the community and I don't identify as a 'Goon', I still get people that rage and shit on me in games for being part of it, and I really don't blame them for it, and SA has a lot better reputation than 4chan ever will!

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

I don't think I need to remind you that Channers also think black people, trans people, gay men and women, and anyone that isn't a channer in general is worse than them.


Well gosh, I didn't realize I was a racist transphobic woman hating dudebro of the fifth order of redpill. please, tell me more about myself that I didn't realize until your sterling and razor sharp observational skills can point out. Different boards exist, Marc. Let's keep the broad paintbrush of absurdity out of here. The guilt by association mindset is, frankly, stupid. You're smarter than that, act like it.

This right here basically explains the difference in our reactions: You believe the fact that Zoey Quinn sparked GamerGate is mere coincidence, whereas I think the evidence pretty clearly establishes it wasn't coincidental at all.

Right. Because Eron got together with a bunch of random folk and said, "hey, let's stir up a shitstorm. It'll be a toats awesome party, bruh." But on a more serious note, do I agree with what he did? Nope. Shit should've stayed behind closed doors. Nonetheless, I'll objectively look at it as a galvanizing moment. A stupid moment? Sure. But it is what it is, and to discount what is now with what started it all is a tad silly.

Edit: I'm going to pull out of the conversation for the time being due to being called in at work unexpectedly on my day off. Carry on, folks.

[Solid Snake]

Logical Fallacy Number Ten Trillion in this Thread:

Just because something isn't coincidental does not mean it's necessarily intentional.

(16:14:09) Solid_Snake: So, just to clarify for y'all
(16:14:45) Solid_Snake: To argue something isn't coincidental is to say that there is a definitive traceable causal connection between the initial event and the subsequent reaction
(16:15:07) Solid_Snake: That does not however mean that the causal connection or the subsequent reaction were intended by any acting party

[Marc v4.0]

please, tell me more about myself that I didn't realize

Ok, that is easy. You missed these posts:

*sigh*
I wish I was a bit better at remembering the names of logical fallacies, because I'm pretty sure your personal, anecdotal experience enjoying 4Chan and being a decent person on 4Chan is in no way relevant to ascertaining 4Chan's general reputation.

It's directly akin to me saying, "I'm a man and I'm a nice guy who wouldn't dare hurt a woman, therefore women must be crazy when they attack men in general!" No, that's just not the way it works. When people here are attacking 4Chan, they're not attacking you or your personal experiences on 4Chan or whatever the fuck you may enjoy about it, they're attacking 4Chan as a whole, which has a well-deserved reputation that has nothing to do with saving endangered sea turtles one time or chatting about the Vita.

I think we can agree for the purpose of this discussion that the moniker 'channers' refers to the people who do the horrible stuff and not the people who avoid it. 4chan isn't known as a home for thoughtful discourse. It's known as the acne-riddled grundle of the internet. Despite that there are genuine people who go there for other reasons, we aren't talking about those people and by extension, aren't talking about you.

You self-identify as a channer, inundate yourself in that culture, way of thinking, wear it as a badge of pride and honer in your social circles, then participate in their raids and trolling excursions?

No?

Then I wasn't talking about you, was I?

If you are going to get hyper-defensive about someone straight up telling the ugly truth about how garbage a website is, I would highly suggest you don't associate with that website

"You're smarter than that, act like it" right back atcha

[Doc ock rokc]

Here is a good video I think covers misogynistic GG argument rather well from a perspective you would probobly agree with (http://youtu.be/9MxqSwzFy5w)

[Ryong]

If you are going to get hyper-defensive about someone straight up telling the ugly truth about how garbage a website is, I would highly suggest you don't associate with that website

All I ask is that you don't generalize. I get enough flak for being Brazilian already.

[RobinStarwing]

Feminism is cherry picking the worst of GG.

GG is cherry picking the worst of the whole thing.

.

I'm bolding this and will touch on it later.

My advice is don't send rape and death threats.

Zoe Quinn, Sarkeesian etc. did report their death and rape threats to the police. What does that have to do with anything? What does the victim's response in this situation have anything to do with anything?

Who cares if it's a minority of people who sent them threats? Why aren't you outraged that women are being unjustly subjected to threats of violence?

This is the natural consequence of gaming and tech industries being dominated by men. At best, women and minorities in these industries are subjected to chronic low-grade sexism and discrimination, and at worst, women are continually sent threats of violence so severe that they are forced out of their home. This is not cherry-picking- this what people who are discriminated against live with every day in our current society. It's so pervasive that apparently some people need this explained to them instead of seeing it clearly for what it is- the death rattles of privileged white mens' dominance in a domain that used to be exclusively their's. WELCOME TO THE 21ST CENTURY.

I would like to see more women involved in the higher tiers of Game Development and Production to be honest.

You have a friend and supporter in me, poch, I just want to be clear that I would prefer arguments and discussions remain civil because that's really the only way viewpoints can evolve and people can learn. As it stands, absent a few notable (and, viewed through historical perspective, relatively benign) exceptions I like this thread and I think the message that underlies everything, "Hey guess what women are actual human beings and simply put this conduct is unacceptable full stop no justification" is one that really needs to be widespread.

Shame that there is a huge contingent of people involved that are deliberately trying to muddy those waters by turning people against one another, and worse off, that they are doing it for their own amusement.

Thank you Shiney and I salute your post.

Now to my thoughts on this.

I saw this develop early on myself during the time NPF was down and was worried if we would ever discuss this issue. We are an things have been said. To be honest...I support the discussion on Cronyism and Corruption in the Video Game Industry ACROSS THE F-ING BOARD. Indie Dev or AAA Dev, Small-time Web blog or big Gaming Journalism Site...does not matter. You SHOULD be held to a freaking higher ethical standard. If you won't do it yourself...maybe your Consumer Base should for you.

Now let me be clear, I do identify as a Gamer. I am NOT some Misogynistic ass as one of my best friends is a Girl who games and I want to see more women in gaming. Especially if the male morons in the industry are going to be hypocrites and tell Gamers they are "Racist, Sexist idiot Terrorists that know nothing" while joking about sleeping with PR reps and having sex with women in their offices and other garbage. So yes, if you are going to call me on my hypocrisy for enjoying the Dead Or Alive games (5 is awesome by the way. I WANT Nyontengu cause she looks gorgeous) and taking pleasure in fan service from time to time...then I get to call them out for their garbage.


On the same thought...the rather loud group of a-holes in the GamerGate and NotYourShield communities need to shut up and stop stirring the pot with their inability to cope with the times. Women should have more presence in video games at ALL LEVELS.

That said, the SJW community needs to rein in it's Trolls and Flamers too as they are not helping matters by telling people the stuff they are. They remind me too much of a guy from a Becker episode that overheard a conversation and made Ted Danson's character sound racist...all because of pronouns and the situation. I tend to think these Trolls and Flamers and what not are actually covering for their own inability to see past Race and Gender Issues.

Just my two cents on this matter.

[synkr0nized]

Just my two cents on this matter and why am I not touching Kim's responses? Very simple, not wanting to encourage or get into it with her. If you been around this forum a while...you know why.

holy fuck


How is it difficult to learn how to not directly troll each other?

And this is just the latest example.

---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:24 PM ----------

like

please, NPF, go out for Friday night and stop posting

[Solid Snake]

Just my two cents on this matter and why am I not touching Kim's responses? Very simple, not wanting to encourage or get into it with her. If you been around this forum a while...you know why.

Oh my fucking God.
Fuck this.

Fuck this passive-aggressive hating on Kim for no apparent discernible reason whatsoever when all she's done here in this thread is make the same exact kinds of arguments Marc and I are making.

If you're going to add this distinctively idiotic level of bullshit as a postscript to your argument then I'm absolutely going to call it out every time as unnecessary as best and downright insulting -- to Kim and anyone who considers her a friend.

EDIT: Aww, Ninja'ed by Synk!

[Marc v4.0]

All I ask is that you don't generalize. I get enough flak for being Brazilian already.

I think we can agree for the purpose of this discussion that the moniker 'channers' refers to the people who do the horrible stuff and not the people who avoid it. 4chan isn't known as a home for thoughtful discourse. It's known as the acne-riddled grundle of the internet. Despite that there are genuine people who go there for other reasons, we aren't talking about those people and by extension, aren't talking about you.

I am not calling you a horrible person for going to 4chan, I am calling horrible people who populate the majority 4chan and perpetuate its hate mongering horrible people.

How much more do we have to be stuck on this little derail?

edit: Jesus Fucking Christ, Robin

[RobinStarwing]

Oh my fucking God.
Fuck this.

Fuck this passive-aggressive hating on Kim for no apparent discernible reason whatsoever when all she's done here in this thread is make the same exact kinds of arguments Marc and I are making.

If you're going to add this distinctively idiotic level of bullshit as a postscript to your argument then I'm absolutely going to call it out every time as unnecessary as best and downright insulting -- to Kim and anyone who considers her a friend.

I think you misunderstand. I don't hate or dislike Kim. She's awesome most of the time. I'm avoiding her posts for the sake of both of us as we tend to get very heated towards each other over our viewpoints.

And that will be my only response to what you said. Any further attempts to get a response from me will not work as I will not respond further.

[synkr0nized]

I think you misunderstand. I don't hate or dislike Kim. She's awesome most of the time. I'm avoiding her posts for the sake of both of us as we tend to get very heated towards each other over viewpoints.

And that will be my only response to what you said. Any further attempts to get a response from me will not work as I will not respond further.

The level-headed way to handle that is to not type it out explicitly and to deal with that on your own, using your rational judgement to maturely debate without falling into argumentation or flaming. You know, the exact opposite of posting "lol I am not talking to you but let me call you out pre-emptively kk?".

[RobinStarwing]

The level-headed way to handle that is to not type it out explicitly and to deal with that on your own, using your rational judgement to maturely debate without falling into argumentation or flaming. You know, the exact opposite of posting "lol I am not talking to you but let me call you out pre-emptively kk?".

Got it and good point. Wsn't my intention but I can see how it came across that way.

[Toast]

Is anyone interested in a different perspective? Prior to August when this whole thing blew up, I'd never heard of Zoe Quinn or Depression Quest. I had no idea what a game jam was or TFYC for that matter. I had heard of Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun, but I'd never been to either site and I generally stay away from games journalism as a matter of course. Two dozen hype articles with a few screenshots or maybe a pre-rendered trailer don't tell me what even ten minutes of gameplay will tell me.

Moving on. When this thing blew up, it was such a shitstorm of misinformation I had no idea what was true and what wasn't. For the most part I still don't. Some people were saying Quinn slept with a judge to get some kind of indie dev award, other people saying that she didn't get the award at all. But apparently the award is listed on the steam page for Depression Quest. Some people were saying that she slept with a journalist to get better reviews, but it turns out he never wrote any about her game. But apparently it was featured on the front page of something that had to do with a lot of different indie games alongside a very favorable quote from this guy.

I'm not even touching on the misogyny aspect of this thing yet, but it just gets murkier and murkier. Some people were posting screenshots of massive deletions of threads that were supposedly about actual discussion of the game and not Quinn herself, but I've no way of knowing that, I've never been to reddit. Some people were accusing Quinn of orchestrating some sort of attack against a forum for people with depression who were critical of her game. Some people are saying entire websites were being removed for being critical of the game, I'd never heard of any of them. There were some DMCA takedowns of some videos that were being critical of the game. Apparently some 10 year old kid was threatened with murder. On and on and on. No idea even how to begin researching what is and isn't true. About the only reasonable voice I heard out of this whole thing was TotalBiscuit (http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s4nmr1/).

Some of you, maybe even most of you, are acting like there are only two sides to this thing. There aren't. There are dozens of sides. Back in August I came across a few people who were calling this whole thing the gamergate scandal, because they thought they were being clever, but now you're telling me it's some kind of movement? With some kind of actual agenda, and leadership, and goals, and plans, etc? Or is it just a social fad that people are latching onto like the ice bucket challenge thing? I've no idea. It's still too soon to sort out the shit from the bullshit.

There are plenty of people who want to talk about the problems of games journalism, and there are people who won't let them because they keep steering it back to Quinn and misogyny. I, and I'm sure most people, don't like being called misogynists even before I have a chance to open my mouth and say anything. I've seen that thread in half a dozen forums. It always ends badly because nobody likes being painted with the same brush.

It should go without saying that it's not acceptable to send death and rape threats to anyone. But over and over again I've seen people who want to discuss issues in games journalism, or even just ask a few questions about what the heck is really going on, or to discuss the ethics of relationships, intimate and otherwise, between devs and journalists and without fail within the first two or three responses is something that goes like this: 'it's not about journalism in games, it's about misogyny and targeting women like Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian.' And then they go on to berate people who are having and want to have legitimate, reasonable discussions about these things as if they were the ones who were personally sending the death and rape threats.

How is that even equivalent? How is that in keeping with the spirit of feminism? I think some of the people that are like that are just a different kind of troll who get off on having what appears to be a moral high ground to stand on while they spew their toxicity everywhere they go. I also think a few are genuinely addicted to the victim identity and narrative and would be powerless and lost without it.

But apparently no one can have a reasonable discussion of issues or even events without someone pulling things to the extreme. No, no one has to give me a rundown of what actually did or didn't happen. At this point in time it basically doesn't matter. It was a shitstorm for everyone involved, and it's never going to be anything less.

To close this long post, I'm getting tired of people who are using the standard social justice warrior buzzwords to shut down discussion of reasonable and legitimate matters in favor of pushing a narrative of victimhood and powerlessness. I'm equally tired of people who are accusing various people involved in this series of events whether there's any actual proof or not. I kind of miss the days when we talked about games based on their mechanics and stories and things of that nature and not the people who make them. I definitely miss the days when we could talk about issues like sexism or current events without sniping at each other or outright attacking each other.

also- holy shit like two hours and 3 pages went by since I started writing this.

[Aldurin]

No, don't...

I see that now.

Watching everyone throw their opinions at each other for a day does answer my questions about this. It's the shell of a good argument (whether conflicting interests in games journalism are acceptable and what the line for that actually is) being gutted and repurposed for anyone that wants to shove a horrible and naturally less-appealing argument through, particularly by pushing that argument upon the people involved in the original debate. Any good on either side is drowned out by the bad on both, especially since this sprawls enough topics and people of interest that trying to focus the argument doesn't help.

I think what this comes down to for the people who aren't driven by race/gender hatred is that the journalism and misogyny debates are now woven too close together to talk about separately, and nobody can agree on how to prioritize the emphasis between the two topics, leading to the kind of conflict that's been going on through this whole thread.

Well, since we're only through a page and a half on this thread, I'll keep watching to see if I learn anything more about this or if it becomes a verbal game of Pong.

[shiney]

lol looks like toast didn't "pop up" in time

( •_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

Sorry guys, this has gotten way too serious. Emotionally charged issues like this tend to do that. Please like synk said let's have a Friday night and hit up some camaraderie. We're a community and a family here, we can have disagreements, but for christ's sake quit being jackasses to one another.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Got it and good point. Wsn't my intention but I can see how it came across that way.

I don't... see how it could come across as anything else but a shot at Kim for no reason. Like, at best it was "I don't trust Kim to be reasonable so I'm not going to engage her." Which is bollocks since she's been nothing but helpful and reasonable in this discussion.

It's not my intention to speak for everybody but I think we've 'mosty' had a healthy time talking about this.

Definitely seems like the larger movements on both sides have bad people trying to push their agendas. That is definitely especially true for Gamer's Gate. But, I'm not completely sure that the people who started these things being who they are invalidates the point that people who agreed with the sentiment had.

[RobinStarwing]

My X-box Handle is LovelierSeven21 if anyone wants to Platoon in WoT 360 Edition on a 360?

Just trying to follow what shiney said. I think this is a discussion that is rather complex to have and can lead to one too many heated arguments and responses and I just want to build camaraderie with ya guys and gals.

[shiney]

whoosh

[Marc v4.0]

I don't... see how it could come across as anything else but a shot at Kim for no reason. Like, at best it was "I don't trust Kim to be reasonable so I'm not going to engage her." Which is bollocks since she's been nothing but helpful and reasonable in this discussion.

It's not my intention to speak for everybody but I think we've 'mosty' had a healthy time talking about this.

Definitely seems like the larger movements on both sides have bad people trying to push their agendas. That is definitely especially true for Gamer's Gate. But, I'm not completely sure that the people who started these things being who they are invalidates the point that people who agreed with the sentiment had.

And I seriously don't believe in this idea of ~both sidez~ being equal in doing 'bad'. Quinn and Anita were driven from the safety of their homes by death and bomb threats and people actually showing up at their homes, Quinn is still moving around to avoid being a stationary target, female journalists have been harassed into quitting completely or going completely network dark, which is a huge hit to their ability to do their jobs, those that support them have received death threats and been the target of mass "Fire them!" campaigns, site sponsers have been spammed with misleading information in efforts to get ads pulled (intel actually caved to this horseshit). Hey, remember Carolyn Petit who used to write for gamespot but quit fucking ages ago and doesn't actually write about games anymore? Targeted, as well! Death threats, rape threats, intentional targeting, harassing them online, at their homes, in their workplace, harassing loved ones and coworkers!

The other side has, at first, just wanted to exist in a medium that they love and enjoy, and at worst stood up and refused to be harassed into silence watch as others are, getting appropriately angry at the complete and total inexcusability of it all. Doing so without having to go to a Gater's house and throw bricks or shout slurs at them, or call their friends and family and bosses and try and get them fired, all without death and rape threats, threatening to blow venues up that support Gaters.


edit: Look if I got along with my sister all the time, she'd have no defensible reason to punch me and would get in a lot more trouble, so family can fight just fine

[Revising Ocelot]

This thread is such a NPF cliche.

[Toast]

And I seriously don't believe in this idea of ~both sidez~ being equal in doing 'bad'.

You're doing it again. You've just created two sides out of god knows how many there really are. On one side you've got people who support Quinn and Sarkeesian. Which I suppose is all well and good, although it'd be nice if you could say that one side supports all women in the games industry. But the bad thing that you've done is lump everyone else into the same group as people who have sent rape and death threats. That's exactly what I was talking about.

I can be critical of Depression Quest and think Quinn's ethics are questionable and not be a misogynist.

I can think that Sarkeesian's work is interesting and even necessary while still thinking it is shallow, narrowly focused, and as with so much feminist work, outright ignoring examples that don't fit the narrative she's trying to push.

I can do all of that and not threaten anyone, and yet I'm being threatened by being lumped into a group of people exhibiting unacceptable behavior just because you, and others, are insisting there's only two sides to this thing, only two ways to look at it, and only two narratives going on. The right side and the misogynist side. And that's bull.

So kindly be precise. Yes, several women are being targeted by people who are harassing them. That doesn't mean they are immune to criticism. Nor does it mean that discussion of an issue that they are related to must always (and every single time) be sidelined so you can announce that fact. We know.

[Marc v4.0]

I am sorry, could you please give me the names of all the little in-factions and minutia groups that exist in the spectrum between 'Supports GamerGate' and 'Doesn't Support Gamer Gate'?

Until then I can only go with what I know, and I know of those two things.

In fact, I think it IS just simpler all around to go with those two instead of getting horribly derailed on trying to suss out and bottle and label every individual persons particular and subjective facet of viewpoint so we can mass address each and every one all at once, especially since the 'movement' 'group' 'scene' 'whatever' are the main foci of the discussion to begin with.

If YOU have a particular viewpoint on the subject, and it differs from RMB's or Robins, or Mine, that is fine, but I am not and should not be expected to repeat my same post n number of times but specifically tailored to each person.

Furthermore, if there is a group that grew out of and continues a campaign of harassment and death threats, and you decide to stand around under that group's banner, argue the validity of said groups points, I don't think it is fair to get upset with me when I identify you as being part of that group.

I ALSO think we need to address the rampant bullshittery of the gaming industry, the conflicts of interest of major developers buying or bullying review sites and journalists into certain kinds of reviews or forcibly stifling need to know information about games until it is too late for the consumer. I support a push to deal with these issues and see them gone, and I can agree with that WITHOUT having to throw in with a shitty, mismanaged and half-assed hate group.

[Kim]

GamerGate doxx'd another lady dev and now someone is threatening to go to her house and murder her and her husband. This has been your latest update on shit that has been happening literally constantly since this bullshit started and that I'm getting so tired of seeing.

EDIT: Marc says I should share what she did to get doxx'd. She made an image macro making fun of GamerGate. That's literally all she did. And now a man is threatening to murder her, her private details are being shared around, and those who aren't actively participating are saying she deserves it or outright denying it's happening. If there is a portion of GamerGate who are trying to prevent this stuff from happening, I have literally seen them do absolutely nothing about it. If those people opposed to it exist, they're a bunch of fucking cowards who refuse to stand up against this shit so far as I can tell.

EDIT2: Went and did a Twitter search and all the GGers are screaming "False flag false flag false flag" I'm so fucking sick of this shit. A few are saying to report it. Good for them I guess. Still a minority compared to those accusing her of lying and it being a "false flag". Like, the good ones are completely overwhelmingly outnumbered.

[Amake]

Yeah like you can say that you're not with those abusive jerks, but they're going to say the opposite and use you to say "look at this well-meaning dude, we're not all like those abusive jerks". Just in the interests of preserving your own dignity and credibility you should be asking what you can do to stop them from doing that. And if you have any empathy you should be asking yourself if the cause of better game journalism is worth this collateral damage

[Kim]

You can care about games journalism without being a part of GG. People cared about games journalism before GG. We'll continue to care about it after. GG is awful and it's done so much harm and will continue to do so the longer it lasts. Nobody is denying there are problems. We just don't think GG is the answer.

As for my own experience with GG harassment. I had a guy stalking me for probably near on two weeks. After about a week and a half of him harassing me and my friends, throwing out slurs and telling people to kill themselves simply for being friendly with me, I asked GG to help me report him. About four or five actually did. At least the same amount asked me for proof and then said my proof wasn't enough or that to report him would be censorship or that what he was doing wasn't real harassment etc etc etc.

Beyond those ten people, nobody else in GG even remotely cared to listen.

Obviously I know not everyone in GG is terrible. But the movement is. Its loudest voices, those voices to which many others flock, are. Its methods are. The movement is so overwhelmed in awfulness that every day I sincerely wish the "good people" in it would leave so that we can put our energy toward something worthwhile.

Instead they keep defending their involvement. Pretending like the overwhelming abuse is just a "small minority" and accomplish actually very little toward making the movement any less detestable.

Oh, and one of the GG ladies who says she gets harassed by anti-GG contacted me today. Turned out she's the same lady who shows up in some IRC leaks Zoe shared, wherein she states about Zoe, "she just wants to stuff her cunt with as many flaccid boy penises as she can." The wording might be off, but I can confirm the presence of the words "cunt" and "flaccid boy penises".

When I told her to fuck off, admittedly before I knew this info, this was screenshotted as an example of anti-GGers harassing GG women.

So, you know, both sidez.

[Premmy]

I think it's important to remember that it's harder to argue 'Sides' when One Side is just a general trend and the other is explicitly presenting itself as An Organization. Republican V. Democrat is a /sides/ Discussion. The Román Catholic Church V. Everyone against child abuse isn't. You can totally make general statements about a group when that group has a /mission statement/

[Kim]

Let's also talk about The Escapist. Ever since Archon, the dude in charge of the Escapist, decided to throw his lot in with GamerGate they've been holding that site up as a bastion of journalistic integrity and transparency and the American way and and and aandandndnandndandnadnandnadnandnadnandnadnandnadn andnandandnandnadnandnadnandnandnandnadnandnandnan d

So, this happened (https://storify.com/alexlifschitz/escapist-drama).

Hmmm, this seems full of bias! And has zero journalistic integrity! And would never have seen the light of day at any publication worth its salt! And would have GOTTEN THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FIRED if it'd been published anywhere worth its salt.

I mean, maybe GamerGate is calling it out. But I haven't seen it. I have seen people defending it and others who are only upset about it because the guy who wanted to get Zoe hacked and actively worked towards that and even falsified documents against her and Anita was removed from the post.

I'm glad to see GamerGate is sticking by its morals.

What a great movement.

EDIT: Journalistic integrity includes publishing libel, right? Yeah, I'm pretty sure it does. <:

[Toast]

I don't think there's a need to be so pedantic about it. Maybe avoid equating people who disagree with you with people who are actively harassing others would be a nice start. Just saying.

Furthermore, if there is a group that grew out of and continues a campaign of harassment and death threats, and you decide to stand around under that group's banner, argue the validity of said groups points, I don't think it is fair to get upset with me when I identify you as being part of that group.

I haven't argued the validity of any group. I've pointed out trends that I've been seeing. I've offered the perspective of a person who doesn't follow twitter hashtags. And even if you're not directing this part of your post towards me, I think my overall point still stands.

No one who is posting in this thread deserves to be lumped together with people who are sending rape and death threats. Because I think it is highly unlikely that anyone here is actually sending rape and death threats. Astonishing, I know. But this goes beyond this thread, as I've mentioned. This same conversation has been going on for a month on dozens of forums and they all end up pretty much the same. Someone says essentially what you've said, and it starts a whole new shitstorm because you've put a nice little label on people who disagree with you which gives you all the license you need to dumb everything down to binary choices and anyone who isn't as fervently on the side you've decided is the right one can get stuffed.

I ALSO think we need to address the rampant bullshittery of the gaming industry, the conflicts of interest of major developers buying or bullying review sites and journalists into certain kinds of reviews or forcibly stifling need to know information about games until it is too late for the consumer. I support a push to deal with these issues and see them gone, and I can agree with that WITHOUT having to throw in with a shitty, mismanaged and half-assed hate group.
I'd be cool with that. But no one is having that discussion because we can't stop attacking each other and we can't stop bringing up the harassment of women in the games industry as if it's new and relevant each time it's posted. I'm not saying it should be ignored, far from it, but there's no need to grind the discussion to a halt every five posts.

-edit-

I think it's important to remember that it's harder to argue 'Sides' when One Side is just a general trend and the other is explicitly presenting itself as An Organization. Republican V. Democrat is a /sides/ Discussion. The Román Catholic Church V. Everyone against child abuse isn't. You can totally make general statements about a group when that group has a /mission statement/

Thank you.

[Kim]

the harassment of women has gotten actively worse than it's ever been in the entirety of my recollection BECAUSE OF gamergate

we're not bringing it up just for funsies

we're bringing it up because its relevant

[Arhra]

the harassment of women has gotten actively worse than it's ever been in the entirety of my recollection BECAUSE OF gamergate

we're not bringing it up just for funsies

we're bringing it up because its relevant
I think everyone here agrees that is bad. The problem is how do we stop it?

Every 'official' thing I've seen that's organising stuff for GamerGate has emphasised that harassment is bad, don't do it.

[Marc v4.0]

I think everyone here agrees that is bad. The problem is how do we stop it?

Every 'official' thing I've seen that's organising stuff for GamerGate has emphasised that harassment is bad, don't do it.

One of the first things channers did, when the movement got its name and started taking off under the disguise of a 'legit' movement, was establish a 'Deny abuse, call false flag on things, redirect, distract, and say we don't condone the bad stuff' plan, that also involved continuing to harass freely, just making sure not to link overt harassment to the hashtags for plausible deniability. It had one of their stupid operation names attached to it.

It was around that same time that they also came up with Not Your Shield, first feeding sockpuppet accounts into it to draw some attention and traction, and letting it grow from there, attack other minorities that were outspoken against GamerGate and literally using NotYourShield as a shield from criticism.

And, Amake is right. You might try and distance yourself from the rotten core of the movement, but they'll gladly put an arm around you and say you're just like them, all day long to further their goals. It is rotten at the very core of it, tainted by its nasty start and misinformation, and grown even worse with time and more muddling of the facts and timeline of things. Even if you recover it, they burned dozens of bridges with devs and journos and websites in the process, they won't trust Gamergate, ever.

[Arhra]

But then how are they organising the harrassment?

[Marc v4.0]

But then how are they organising the harrassment?

They've been using a different imageboard site since being kicked out of 4chan, and ircs/chats. How else would they be doing it?

[Arhra]

Here's the thing though. Image boards are publicly available, and for 4chan at least the entire board content is archived by third party sites.

If there is evidence to be found there, why has nothing come up except that IRC planning log which, well, wasn't incriminating at all?

[Marc v4.0]

I am unaware of these third party sites, but there have been tons of images, chat logs, you name it that have come out and gone since this all started. They get swallowed up in claims of being photoshopped, made up, SJW shill distractions, shouted at and down until no one wants to talk about it anymore. People believe the claims, and the people that bring these things to light go private, or lock up under a sea of harassment. It's been ongoing, day after day after day. It's all my twitter feed ever talks about anymore.

I'm unsure what chat logs you've seen, but I haven't seen one yet that hasn't been both horrifically vile and full of talks about who to target next and how.

[Kim]

I think everyone here agrees that is bad. The problem is how do we stop it?

Every 'official' thing I've seen that's organising stuff for GamerGate has emphasised that harassment is bad, don't do it.

well i mean when someone outside gamergate uses the gamergate hashtag to say "hey this person in your movement is harassing me can you help report them" and only gets ten responses, and only five of those actually help, then i think its pretty clear that the majority aren't really doing anything to prevent harassment beyond saying "harassment is bad"

and when a woman is getting doxx'd and someone is threatening to murder her and her husband and she has to call the police and leave her home it is not exactly helpful toward preventing harassment to spend more time accusing her of lying or claiming that the account is a "false flag" than you spend reporting the account or showing sympathy and concern

so if all gamergate is willing to do is say "don't harass" but is largely unwilling to do anything beyond that i think it's pretty clear that the only thing them saying "don't harass" accomplishes is letting those who do nothing about the harassment pretend they aren't responsible or contributing

which is pretty fucking cowardly

[Arhra]

I am unaware of these third party sites, but there have been tons of images, chat logs, you name it that have come out and gone since this all started. They get swallowed up in claims of being photoshopped, made up, SJW shill distractions, shouted at and down until no one wants to talk about it anymore. People believe the claims, and the people that bring these things to light go private, or lock up under a sea of harassment. It's been ongoing, day after day after day. It's all my twitter feed ever talks about anymore.

I'm unsure what chat logs you've seen, but I haven't seen one yet that hasn't been both horrifically vile and full of talks about who to target next and how.
The only one that's made the news.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/137293-Exclusive-Zoe-Quinn-Posts-Chat-Logs-Debunking-GamerGate-4Chan-and-Quinn-Respond

Went with that link because it has the original story, responses and the link to the released full logs.

well i mean when someone outside gamergate uses the gamergate hashtag to say "hey this person in your movement is harassing me can you help report them" and only gets ten responses, and only five of those actually help, then i think its pretty clear that the majority aren't really doing anything to prevent harassment beyond saying "harassment is bad"
I'm sorry, I don't have a twitter. What is a normal number of responses?

[Krylo]

Here's the thing though. Image boards are publicly available, and for 4chan at least the entire board content is archived by third party sites.

If there is evidence to be found there, why has nothing come up except that IRC planning log which, well, wasn't incriminating at all?

https://8chan.co/gg/ Is, I believe, where they went. I'm not reading that shit, though. Fuck that.

Also: The issue with game journalism is it never had separation of church and state. It's been issue since the start. But this is unlikely to end regardless of how much hate mail anyone sends anywhere, because even real respectable journalism is dropping it.

GamerGate, is, regardless of anything else, at its core, completely detrimental to any attempts at fixing this issue, as well, because of how it started. It doesn't matter if everyone in it is sending abuse or not (other than it's more evil that way) or how unimportant those nazis are, or how many people tell you they're shitty and how offended you get by it, or how much they do or don't do to stop the harassment.

What matters is it happened. Any attempt to use GG to discuss games journalism is going to come with all that weight. All that weight that they put on themselves.

If you want to discuss the editorial department being completely over run by marketing in game journalism, or, better yet, journalism as a whole, and how this makes objective journalism impossible, and their sites entirely worthless: Get a new moniker. A new group.

Because, right now, GG is to games journalism as PETA is to animal rights, except a hundred times worse. There might be a good message hidden in there, but it's really fucking hard to take it seriously when there's dumpsters full of dead puppies outside their head quarters, or people showing up at the homes of their opponents.

Also: Because some people probably don't know it; separation of church and state in journalism means that the editorial and the commercial sections of media are completely divided. Advertisers and the people who court them have absolutely 0 input in what gets printed. The breakdown of it in 'real' journalism has caused exactly what we've seen in gaming for awhile--sponsored articles. Articles that are nothing more than advertisements for a product, cleverly disguised as 'news'. Which is exactly why it was created in the first place, and given such a lofty moniker.

It's also what any movement for integrity in any kind of journalism should start with. Not journalists being friends/fuck-buddies with people they write stories about. Not that the latter isn't also corruption, but it's incredibly small scale and not worth anyone's time to worry about except their editors (who should pull such stories and/or fire such journalists if there's any clear bias).

[Marc v4.0]

I would advise no one to go to that website at all, it's a haven for consumers of illegal sexual activities, and likely to get you placed on an FBI watchlist.

[Kim]

I'm sorry, I don't have a twitter. What is a normal number of responses?

Well, I mean, I get a hell of a lot more than ten respondents when they're mad at me, that's for damn sure.

[Premmy]

I don't think there's a need to be so pedantic about it. Maybe avoid equating people who disagree with you with people who are actively harassing others would be a nice start. Just saying.



I haven't argued the validity of any group. I've pointed out trends that I've been seeing. I've offered the perspective of a person who doesn't follow twitter hashtags. And even if you're not directing this part of your post towards me, I think my overall point still stands.

No one who is posting in this thread deserves to be lumped together with people who are sending rape and death threats. Because I think it is highly unlikely that anyone here is actually sending rape and death threats. Astonishing, I know. But this goes beyond this thread, as I've mentioned. This same conversation has been going on for a month on dozens of forums and they all end up pretty much the same. Someone says essentially what you've said, and it starts a whole new shitstorm because you've put a nice little label on people who disagree with you which gives you all the license you need to dumb everything down to binary choices and anyone who isn't as fervently on the side you've decided is the right one can get stuffed.


I'd be cool with that. But no one is having that discussion because we can't stop attacking each other and we can't stop bringing up the harassment of women in the games industry as if it's new and relevant each time it's posted. I'm not saying it should be ignored, far from it, but there's no need to grind the discussion to a halt every five posts.

-edit-



Thank you.

There is a LOT to unpack here, but the most important thing is you're interpreting my post in the exact opposite way it was intended.

[Krylo]

I would advise no one to go to that website at all, it's a haven for consumers of illegal sexual activities, and likely to get you placed on an FBI watchlist.

Was unaware the FBI decided to start caring about channers, but I put it in a swap tag to limit accidental/unknowing clicking.

[Ryong]

In addition to the previously linked site, there's this (http://gamergate.community) which has been a lot less terrible.

[Krylo]

In addition to the previously linked site, there's this (http://gamergate.community) which has been a lot less terrible.

Clicked around there, couldn't find many threads where a very good chunk of the people talking weren't talking about 'corruption' but were talking about 'fighting SJWs' and fighting 'conspiracies' created to make gaming/development more inclusive to women/minorities.

I found one thread where they linked to a reddit about the stuff GG isn't bothering to fight with nothing but 'lookit these self righteous assholes' with no countering that they aren't actually doing anything about it.

I saw a stickied thread about combating DiGRA, not because of 'corruption', as a normal person would consider it (paid for articles, paid for review scores, etc.) but rather because it's, apparently, connected to an attempt to 'dismantle hegemonic masculinity'. Which, literally just means, make things more comfortable for people that aren't straight white men.

I saw people saying that they were part of the movement because they believe using the words 'patriarchal' and 'privilege' in conversation about social justice is an attempt to brain wash the masses.

I mean, I don't really have a side, I'm just speaking as someone who has been sitting on various websites seeing all this stuff go down--but the threads there don't really do much to prove anything you're saying, other than that GG is trying to move away from active harassment.

Which is good.

But, I mean, given this I'm not sure how you think this supports the case that GG doesn't carry a bunch of issues implicit with it that makes remarks about the misogyny/general awfulness inherent in its roots spreading to the branches basically true?

[Ryong]

Nah it's just it's where I found some good articles and videos, like the one from techcrunch that I linked earlier and that factual feminist video that was linked here earlier too.

[Kim]

Wait without skimming through the thread looking for what you're referencing is the "factual feminist" video CH Sommers cuz that lady is a straight up MRA and I'm not even exaggerating. She makes a career out of attacking feminism and feminists for "oppressing men" essentially and the people in charge of actual MRA website A Voice For Men love her.

[Ryong]

I'm talking about this one.

Here is a good video I think covers misogynistic GG argument rather well from a perspective you would probobly agree with (http://youtu.be/9MxqSwzFy5w)

[Krylo]

Wait without skimming through the thread looking for what you're referencing is the "factual feminist" video CH Sommers It is.

cuz that lady is a straight up MRA and I'm not even exaggerating. She makes a career out of attacking feminism and feminists for "oppressing men" essentially and the people in charge of actual MRA website A Voice For Men love her.Though I dont think this is a good argument against her. Bad people liking something doesn't necessarily make it bad. Particularly when some of the people you're countering would reasons to 'so what if she is MRA?' As they agree with some MRA points.

That said, however, I find her video laughable. She cherry picks just worse than Anita, and is equally shallow in her discourse.

However, she additionally, completely ignores the effects of media on culture (and vice versa), pretending that internalization of ideas doesn't happen. Her argument that games aren't overwhelmingly misogynistic is simply 'of course constantly showing women as nothing more than objects will never affect how people perceive them in anyway.' Much like constantly showing Black and Latino people as violent criminals in media doesn't cause a number of people to be automatically afraid of anyone not white. Or how constantly showing Asian people as knowing kung fu and being smart hasn't created that stereotype, or constantly showing Jews as greedy hasn't kept alive the idea of Jewish greed for centuries because they used to be the only culture okay with banking.

Oh wait. Actually, all of those things have happened. So maybe constant barrages of stereotyping do have an effect. Maybe that's why MRA exists in its current form, more worried about stopping feminism than helping men. Or maybe that's why there's a lot of articles and papers by people smarter than me explaining how many men become frustrated with women for not providing sex after society has bombarded is with the idea that they should if we perform a service, or why the 'nice guy, phenomena happens.

No, says Sommers, in exactly these words, "maybe (eye roll) because they're male." The classic boys will be boys.

And excuse me for getting uncomfortably heated there, but whenever someone excuses supporting ridiculous sexist caricatures of women or poor behavior by implying that I, as a man, am simply incapable of not being a gross asshole for the five minutes to admit things are slanted it pisses me off far more than any attempts to have female heros in games or to make games I find boring. Far far more.

And the point that millennial men are less likely to me sexist doesn't let games off the hook. Correlation is not causation and a philosophy professor should know that. Millennial men are also growing up inundated with the gay rights battle, with more voting women than ever before, with a minority President, with the idea of a female President being completely believable, where TV, movies, and even video games are becoming more inclusive every year etc. etc.

But of course all of this positive media toward equality isn't part of the reason things are getting better and there's no reason to try to further it more, because the media we consume has 0 effect on us.

Calming down again here, I guess my point is that she's not got any good points, ignores logic, admits, herself, that her research was reading some articles and talking to gamers for a couple weeks, as opposed to spending a few weeks playing controversial games herself.

Edit: Also I apologize for any weird words or typos I missed. I typed this on my phone, so you know, swipe isn't perfect and neither is auto-correct.

[Kim]

I wasn't so much bringing that up to discredit GamerGate as much as I was bringing it up cuz I fucking hate that people uncritically refer to her as a feminist. Cuz if you actually look at her ideology she isn't.

And yeah that video is garbage. She doesn't even address the title of her video. It's just named such to get hits. Very clickbaity. "Are video games sexist?" and then she spends the whole video basically arguing that it's okay for video games to be sexist. I fuckin' hate that lady.

EDIT: Like, if I was gonna use Sommers to discredit GG I'd bring up that the official GG ops pages list her alongside Nero and Adam Baldwin as good allies to get in touch with when you start a new account to flood Twitter.

[pochercoaster]

And excuse me for getting uncomfortably heated there, but whenever someone excuses supporting ridiculous sexist caricatures of women or poor behavior by implying that I, as a man, am simply incapable of not being a gross asshole for the five minutes to admit things are slanted it pisses me off far more than any attempts to have female heros in games or to make games I find boring. Far far more.

This sort of OT and I've been meaning to make a thread about it forever but I recently read an AMAZING book called Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference (http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference/dp/0393340244) that is specifically about how incredibly vulnerable our brains are to socialization and how pretty much every single study ever about how men are inherently better/worse at X and women are inherently better/worse at Y is a huge, steaming pile of poorly researched and biased bullshit. Everything from the premises researchers start with to their study methods to their sample sizes to simple greed/money incentives to our incredible lack of knowledge about how the brain works to the dire ramifications of disseminating gender myths is covered. And despite all that, it is a very level headed, in depth, and extremely engaging read and I highly recommend you or anyone else interested in this topic read it. Please please PLEASE read it you'd enjoy it.

ALSO SNAKE YOU SHOULD READ THIS ^^^

Like I'll buy you motherfuckers this book to read because I am that crazy about it IDC. Like not at this moment cause I'm poor but maybe in a couple months because fuck you i'm a proselytizer now.

[Solid Snake]

ALSO SNAKE YOU SHOULD READ THIS ^^^


A recommendation from Poch is never something I'd pass up on, so I'll definitely check it out.

[shiney]

The only damn thing men are better at than women is having a penis and Y chromosome and identity-wise even that is in question.

Also vice-versa vis-a-vis vaginas. That may be the first time in my life I started that many consecutive words with 'v'.

[Solid Snake]

The only damn thing men are better at than women is having a penis

Honestly, I think we should avoid definitions of gender that rely on possessing certain genitalia.

[Kim]

The only damn thing men are better at than women is having a penis and Y chromosome and identity-wise even that is in question.

Also vice-versa vis-a-vis vaginas. That may be the first time in my life I started that many consecutive words with 'v'.

*rubs temples and lets out long exhasperated sigh*

[Krylo]

Ah, people make mistakes sometimes when they get glib. Especially old folks who aren't used to the idea of transexuality being a thing--as that, while gender dysphoria was, it was kinda like being gay in the 20s, no one talked about it, until a couple years ago.

I'm sure Shiney didn't mean anything by it and is likely sorry. Don't take his missteps to heart.

[Kim]

I won't take it to heart. Probably could have responded better too, for which I apologize.

[Red Mage Black]

I'm just going to name drop here. Since some people seem exempt from burden of proof here due to, "I don't feel like it because you won't read it anyway and you'll just "move the goalposts".


-Karen Straughan (GirlWritesWhat on YT.)
-Erin Pizzey (Woman who started women's shelters. When she wanted to make a men's shelter, she got threats to her family, her dog was killed and she was kicked out of her organization by feminists.)
-(Not a name but: ) Honey Badger Brigade: Here's just one of their well written articles aside from their podcasts which you should definitely listen to. (http://honeybadgerbrigade.com/2014/09/07/gamergate-journalism-as-a-social-justice-war-game/) They post their Podcasts under the name of HoneyBadgerRadio on YouTube.

Youtube names:
- Sargon of Akkad
- Doctor Randomercam
- Internet Aristocrat

Go ahead and look 'em up folks. I'll be delighted to hear whatever your responses might be... and yes, one the latest Nerdcasts from HBR featured talking about GG with Sargon and Doctor Randomercam.

[Kim]

Is Sargon the guy who talked with Pixie and then shouted her down because he decided it wasn't a debate and she was outdebating him or is Sargon the guy who talked with Liana K and drove her to tears because he and his pals didn't like her criticizing Nero.

Like, that's not just me trying to be a prick I literally forget which he is, but I think??? he's the first one?

EDIT: Double-checked and yeah Sargon was the guy who shouted PixieJenni down and the dude who was shitty to Liana K in a stream was KingofPol I think

EDIT2: The funniest part was how Liana K ending up in tears was proof that she was too emotional but Sargon shouting a woman down apparently wasn't proof he was too emotional. Strange that.

[rpgdemon]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/227548/Another_woman_in_games_driven_from_her_home_by_har assers.php

[Marc v4.0]

A wonderful post from the blog of John Walker, UK co-editor and co-director of Rock, Paper, Shotgun

http://botherer.org/2014/10/12/a-thing-about-gamergate/

[Kim]

Oh, so the Escapist also failed to disclose that one of the interviewees, James Desborough, had a project of his, Chronicles of Gor, backed by the dude who owns the Escapist. And that he seems to have known Desborough before then. Source: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+JamesGrimDesborough/posts/TDDYucSzHDz

Now, this doesn't bother me, except to the extent that it flies in the face of the journalist ethics that GamerGate has so sincerely advocated. And since they're such sincere advocates, surely they're calling the Escapist out on this, right? You see, I don't go to 8chan or anything, but surely they're upset about this, and not just upset that the interview with the guy who forged stuff to accuse Anita of tax fraud* was removed, right?

Surely.

*Can't find exact source on this at the moment, but here's some other stuff about him.
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/520682857313095682
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/520682306370289665

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 AM ----------

Also, like, if you wanna see examples of all the awful shit GG and channers are constantly doing to harass and doxx people they dislike, literally just check out Zoe Quinn's twitter feed. She's got loads of screenshots.

[Red Mage Black]

Is Sargon the guy who talked with Pixie and then shouted her down because he decided it wasn't a debate and she was outdebating him or is Sargon the guy who talked with Liana K and drove her to tears because he and his pals didn't like her criticizing Nero.

Like, that's not just me trying to be a prick I literally forget which he is, but I think??? he's the first one?

EDIT: Double-checked and yeah Sargon was the guy who shouted PixieJenni down and the dude who was shitty to Liana K in a stream was KingofPol I think

EDIT2: The funniest part was how Liana K ending up in tears was proof that she was too emotional but Sargon shouting a woman down apparently wasn't proof he was too emotional. Strange that.

What a devil! Honestly, you guys using a shouting match? What about the other people I pointed out? Internet Aristocrat is a bit of a dick and so can Doctor Randomercam, but it honestly doesn't disprove the validity of any of the points they make. If that were true, half the thread and posts of you guys shouting at one another about misogyny and patriarchy would be invalidated by emotion if that were the case.

BUT since you pointed out the in question that I hadn't seen before, I'll check them out. I never said they were nice people though and I probably won't be surprised at what he does.

As for KingofPol, I can't say anything about him as I don't watch his videos.

However, I will also recommend you check out the other stuff I mentioned.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/227548/Another_woman_in_games_driven_from_her_home_by_har assers.php
Even if the article is legit, I refuse to touch clickbait sites without a little safety behind me. (http://www.donotlink.com/c0lc)

After reading the article in question:
Yes, the comment made by the abuser was cause for alarm. However... without proper research, the writer also goes on to say:
"Wu attributed the threat directly to the online campaign #GamerGate, a group that categorizes itself as a “consumer advocacy” or a “consumer revolt” “movement,” though major tech blogs, mainstream media -- and more directly various #GamerGate chat logs -- have shown clear ties to organized harassment campaigns rooted in misogyny and sexism against women."

This right here folks is a correlation =/= causation fallacy and only seems like an appeal to emotion to back people further away from the actual goals of the people who are NOT harassing anyone and ignore anyone who might actually have evidence of corruption. The reason people are doubtful and call falseflag shit is because the writers never provide proof that the incident ever happened. I'd like to compare this to the "patriarchy theory" and "white cis male" fallacies that arguments by anyone who identifies as a heterosexual white cis male should not be listened to based on those grounds alone. (Unless you're a feminist of course...)

Stupid vitriol in the last couple sentences aside, I'm going to address a comment from the article as well since I'm sure a few of you have seen it by now:

Whilst I applaud the sentiment, the structure of GG actively grants these people a platform.

Whatever good intentions exist get mashed together with an aggressive minority that also self-identifies with the movement. I've seen a lot of hyperbolic rhetoric like calling people with differing views "enemies", and the echo-chamber of twitter makes it intensely susceptible to misinformation. The consequence is an environment that enables harassment (not even just by the minority's intention, but just by its presence), which tragically also gets targeted back at GG proponents.

Absolutely agree that the harassment must stop, then we can move on to discussing real issues, but my personal opinion is that GG as it currently exists might very well make that impossible.

This happens, with what some people fail to notice, with EVERY MOVEMENT EVER. You want to know who the MRAs and others who don't like the feminist movement are making fun of? Your loudmouthed, "all men are rapists" radical feminist counterparts and to mirror two things they said, "Whilst I applaud the sentiment, the structure of GG actively grants these people a platform."

Change GG to Feminism or MRA and it's the same deal.

Whatever good intentions exist get mashed together with an aggressive minority that also self-identifies with the movement. I've seen a lot of hyperbolic rhetoric like calling people with differing views "enemies", and the echo-chamber of twitter makes it intensely susceptible to misinformation. The consequence is an environment that enables harassment (not even just by the minority's intention, but just by its presence), which tragically also gets targeted back at GG proponents.

Same thing I stated for the first quote. Calling any of them "not feminists, not MRAs, not GGers," would be a "No True Scotsman" Fallacy and it's pathetic to watch that neither movement will dismiss it's more hatred filled branch. They are not just the "minorities" they are the vocal majority that the media sensationalizes.

A wonderful post from the blog of John Walker, UK co-editor and co-director of Rock, Paper, Shotgun

http://botherer.org/2014/10/12/a-thing-about-gamergate/

There are enough comments at the bottom making an argument for me, I can't even point them out without hitting the character limit.

Oh, so the Escapist also failed to disclose that one of the interviewees, James Desborough, had a project of his, Chronicles of Gor, backed by the dude who owns the Escapist. And that he seems to have known Desborough before then. Source: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+JamesGrimDesborough/posts/TDDYucSzHDz

Now, this doesn't bother me, except to the extent that it flies in the face of the journalist ethics that GamerGate has so sincerely advocated. And since they're such sincere advocates, surely they're calling the Escapist out on this, right? You see, I don't go to 8chan or anything, but surely they're upset about this, and not just upset that the interview with the guy who forged stuff to accuse Anita of tax fraud* was removed, right?

Surely.

*Can't find exact source on this at the moment, but here's some other stuff about him.
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/520682857313095682
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/520682306370289665

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 AM ----------

Also, like, if you wanna see examples of all the awful shit GG and channers are constantly doing to harass and doxx people they dislike, literally just check out Zoe Quinn's twitter feed. She's got loads of screenshots.

Just one question: Do you generalize everyone who agrees with the ethical side of the movement and put them all in the same circle? I've already pointed out above that you could change GG into any of the other movements and anyone saying they should 'change their moniker' or disassociate themselves from them would be just as valid.

But no, I'm not going to look at anything Zoe Quinn has to say. On Tumblr or Twitter. As I said before, she's a liar and a hypocrite and it's pathetic that anyone actually believes the snake oil she's saying. So yes, I will avoid the links.

[Amake]

So, I guess the important thing is to identify the handful of voices for gamergate who have anything useful to say and make sure they're heard over the thousands upon thousands who don't. While those thousands keep harassing people.

[Kim]

But no, I'm not going to look at anything Zoe Quinn has to say. On Tumblr or Twitter. As I said before, she's a liar and a hypocrite and it's pathetic that anyone actually believes the snake oil she's saying. So yes, I will avoid the links.

I'm gonna admit I'm a little annoyed at this. You get on our cases about not checking out your links. You complain that nobody is providing any proof. And then you do the exact same based entirely on the fact that you hate Zoe Quinn so fucking much that you can't even be bothered to look at screenshots she's shared. It must be pretty easy to hate her when you absolutely refuse to look at anything she's said outside of the screenshots 8chan gives you.

I think I'm gonna try and bow out from this thread. It's not going anywhere. It's never going to go anywhere. Between being told to fuck off and RMB complaining we don't provide evidence or read his links, then dismissing Gamasutra as a "clickbait" site and refusing to look at screenshots cuz Zoe posted them... This thread isn't what I need in my life right now.

Have fun doing whatever.

[Red Mage Black]

So, I guess the important thing is to identify the handful of voices for gamergate who have anything useful to say and make sure they're heard over the thousands upon thousands who don't. While those thousands keep harassing people.

So, you know the exact number, Amake? I still say the case is the same for any and all movements. Those who are part of one side will either dismiss or ignore their more extreme counterparts and only account for their people that actually help the cause and say that "this is the only true part of the movement."

So, how about identifying the entirety of the feminist movement that isn't male shaming just for men being men? Don't give me this whole "men need to turn everything about men", because it can be turned around exactly on feminism, "women needing to make everything about women." Why can't the good sides of the MRAs and Feminists actually form a good movement aside from JUST advocating for their own genders? What about... gasp the Egalitarian movement? Or... the Human Rights Movement? No, Feminism has nothing to do with Egalitarianism and you're not catching me with that one. A million and more radfems vehemently disagree with you already and they ARE part of the Feminist movement.

I'm gonna admit I'm a little annoyed at this. You get on our cases about not checking out your links. You complain that nobody is providing any proof. And then you do the exact same based entirely on the fact that you hate Zoe Quinn so fucking much that you can't even be bothered to look at screenshots she's shared. It must be pretty easy to hate her when you absolutely refuse to look at anything she's said outside of the screenshots 8chan gives you.

I think I'm gonna try and bow out from this thread. It's not going anywhere. It's never going to go anywhere. Between being told to fuck off and RMB complaining we don't provide evidence or read his links, then dismissing Gamasutra as a "clickbait" site and refusing to look at screenshots cuz Zoe posted them... This thread isn't what I need in my life right now.

Have fun doing whatever.

I don't visit 8chan, for one. I was around when the GG first showed up and it WAS about rooting out corruption in VG journalism. There WERE some crying for blood, but there WERE professional voices in the crowd. I posted several links, Kim and even decided to namedrop people you might want to check out. Yet I refuse to click the link of someone I have seen the corruption and lies from and that's what causes you to ragequit the thread?

I thought I would have been the first one out of both of us. Wow.

Have fun doing whatever.

Okay, I will.

NPF doesn't need all this social justice warrior bullshit anyway. Just like it doesn't need political discussions. If you aren't on the "right" side, everyone dogpiles you.

[Amake]

So, you know the exact number, Amake? I still say the case is the same for any and all movements. Those who are part of one side will either dismiss or ignore their more extreme counterparts and only account for their people that actually help the cause and say that "this is the only true part of the movement."

So, how about identifying the entirety of the feminist movement that isn't male shaming just for men being men? Don't give me this whole "men need to turn everything about men", because it can be turned around exactly on feminism, "women needing to make everything about women." Why can't the good sides of the MRAs and Feminists actually form a good movement aside from JUST advocating for their own genders? What about... gasp the Egalitarian movement? Or... the Human Rights Movement? No, Feminism has nothing to do with Egalitarianism and you're not catching me with that one. A million and more radfems vehemently disagree with you already and they ARE part of the Feminist movement.
Are you actually trying to say the number of people using the gamergate label to help anyone, in any way, outnumber the people using it to hurt people? I don't believe that for one second.

[pochercoaster]

I need men's rights because there's never been a male president

[rpgdemon]

Calling Gamasutra a clickbait site is laughable at best and if you honestly believe that, then you have no place in a discussion about the state of the gaming industry. If there is one site that is the heart of the gaming industry, designed specifically for those within the industry, it's Gamasutra.

[Solid Snake]

NPF doesn't need all this social justice warrior bullshit anyway. Just like it doesn't need political discussions. If you aren't on the "right" side, everyone dogpiles you.

I have to confess that I was sincerely tempted to just quote this, type "Welcome to my Ignore List, RMB!", and then type a couple paragraphs about you being a Troll, quoting a few other sentences in which you're clearly looking to just insult folks and rile them up, and leaving it at that. Because, you know, I really do believe in calling a spade a spade.

But, let's assume for a moment -- just a moment, mind you -- that you are not in fact a troll, and that you are sincerely, if in the most utterly insulting and hamfisted way imaginable, attempting to advance an argument here.

If that were true, half the thread and posts of you guys shouting at one another about misogyny and patriarchy would be invalidated by emotion if that were the case.

This sentence was completely unnecessary in the context of attempting to suggest that the authors you quoted had relevant points that added to the discussion. Characterizing an opposing argument as "shouting at one another about misogyny and patriarchy" isn't exactly a conducive way to engage in level-headed debate, which makes me think you're not really interested in proving that GamerGate is a legitimate movement addressing a legitimate grievance in the industry, but that you're simply interested in insulting as many of us as you possibly can under the pretext of advancing logical arguments about GamerGate that you're not actually dedicating time or effort to advancing.

This right here folks is a correlation =/= causation fallacy and only seems like an appeal to emotion to back people further away from the actual goals of the people who are NOT harassing anyone and ignore anyone who might actually have evidence of corruption.

If you think there's some grand conspiracy among those you've dubbed 'social justice warriors' to prevent a rational dialogue about journalistic ethics and collusion in the gaming industry, then, fuck, I don't even know what to say to that.

Here's the thing: Most of the opposition to GamerGate is NOT opposed to a rational, sensible, level-headed discussion about the topic you're assuming that GamerGate is 'all about.' I mean, yes, there are specific defenses related to the specific behaviors of specific journalists and game developers implicated in GamerGate...which is only logical, because, among other things, there's no evidence whatsoever that Zoe Quinn committed any kind of ethical breach in trading sexual conduct for good reviews or any of that kind of shit. The problem with GamerGate isn't what GamerGate's few decent voices of sanity purport GamerGate is about, but rather, that GamerGate started as a direct attack on a specific individual and has continued attacks against women while pivoting to a generally agreeable purported goal as a cover but failing to actually address the vast majority of the broader issues implicated by its purported advocacy.

In other words, journalistic ethics and the integrity of the industry is a front. It's a cover. It's deception. The fact that it's deception doesn't necessarily entail that everyone is 'in on it', and in fact I'd bet a majority of those tweeting support of #GamerGate have bought into the lie. It's the same thing as social conservatives in America who genuinely deceive themselves into believing a broader, reconstructed narrative about the KKK in which the KKK is not a racist movement but about 'restoring pride in the south' or confronting social inequalities in impoverished predominantly white rural areas of the south. It's the same thing as tea party members who genuinely buy into the narrative that the tea party is about confronting Wall Street and Big Government to promote the Common Man when the reality of the matter is that every Tea Party member in an actual position of authority -- those who actually stand a chance of being elected to Congress as Republicans -- are actually advocating policies that will benefit Wall Street at the expense of their own supporters.

So, here's the reality of the matter: The GamerGaters who are actually doing more than just tweeting support of the concept of GamerGate are, in a vastly disproportionate way, targeting female developers in the gaming industry. And, yes, at one point or another you need to start looking at the actual, real-life, visible consequences of a movement as opposed to just claiming that the movement is perfectly embodied by an idealistic conceptualization articulated by a statement or an article. We don't judge President Obama on his campaign speeches; we judge him on his record in governance. We don't judge employees on lofty intentions; we judge them on their actual work product. If I say "You're my best friend, RMB!" and then I punch you in the stomach, you are probably going to view the punch as more indicative of my character than my statement.

And the fact of the matter is, the behavior of GamerGate at best suggests the movement is, well, exactly as Wu described it in that quote you referenced: A loosely tied together amalgamation of disparate individuals purporting to advocate for consumer advocacy, yet with clear and distinctive ties to misogynistic parties targeting women in organized harassment campaigns. There's not nearly enough outspoken condemnation of the harassment campaigns because to condemn the harassment campaigns is seen by many -- including yourself -- as an unnecessary sidetracking at best and as a destructive action that could neuter the movement at worst. In other words, publicly renowned GamerGaters don't want to confront the fact that they're wrong about specific aspects of Quinn's case because renouncing an attack on Quinn would damage the very pillars that fostered the movement in the first place.

Any responsible GamerGater would have, long ago, confessed that the Quinn story was ancillary and irrelevant and attempted to tackle the larger issue of AAA developers doing AAA developer things. Shadow of Mordor's team -- among a great many others -- should be receiving the vast majority of the bile. The fact that many GamerGaters have subsequently DEFENDED the very shady business practices executed by Shadow of Mordor to advertise its product on Youtube and allowed that story to be buried while the antagonism against Zoe Quinn and other women developers being DRIVEN OUT OF THE GODDAMN INDUSTRY BECAUSE THEY ARE WOMEN HOLY FUCK WHY DO I EVEN HAVE TO TYPE THIS is still festering and even growing online shows that GamerGate is, at best -- given the most glowing possible interpretation -- a movement that has slipped beyond the organizational control of leadership figures who could steer the ship back to the right direction. Rudderless, its own extremists have claimed the movement as their own and it's the extremists who are defining the movement's objectives. It's the Tea Party all over again.

I'd like to compare this to the "patriarchy theory" and "white cis male" fallacies that arguments by anyone who identifies as a heterosexual white cis male should not be listened to based on those grounds alone.

These are not logical fallacies, no one who ascribes to patriarchy or uses that terminology is claiming that white cis males "should not be listened to" universally and all subject matters based solely upon their gender or race, acknowledging the existence of privilege does not equate to a blind disregard of the privileged, and I have no fucking idea what the fuck you're on about, aside from a general guess that you're just irrationally angry at social justice advocates and painting them with a very wide brush.

This happens, with what some people fail to notice, with EVERY MOVEMENT EVER.

Sure! But in most cases, most movements have sufficient infrastructural capacity -- through leaders who define the conversation, through organizations who define the goals, through some sort of underlying framework that facilitates its advocates -- to crush the extremist voices who go beyond message. And this is something GamerGate desperately needs, if GamerGate was ever a serious movement at all, and I'm arguing it isn't, in large part based upon the evidence that it was a salacious story about a woman's sex life that sparked the movement in the first place, as opposed to a nearly-infinite number of far more prominent and objectively more awful controversies in the gaming industry.

At one point or another, you still have to answer why this began with Quinn, and you still need to answer exactly what in her ex-boyfriend's long-winded, inarticulate rants justifies your suspicion that Quinn herself even acted unethically or illegally so as to justify making her the centerpiece of a stand against the industry.

But no, I'm not going to look at anything Zoe Quinn has to say. On Tumblr or Twitter. As I said before, she's a liar and a hypocrite and it's pathetic that anyone actually believes the snake oil she's saying. So yes, I will avoid the links.

This is stupid.
Even assuming you're right and Quinn is a liar and a hypocrite and she's selling snake oil, saying you wouldn't look at anything she has to say is akin to a Republican saying they wouldn't read anything Obama has to say. If you're basing an entire movement on her presumed duplicity, you're sure as hell paying attention to her. If any Republican said the same about Obama or any Democrat said the same about someone like Karl Rove they'd be laughed out of their jobs. Understand your enemy and all that.

You see the irony here is, if you really did believe that Zoe Quinn was a liar and a hypocrite and selling snake oil, you'd DEFINITELY be paying attention to her. The fact that you're deliberately avoiding her content actually suggests that you're not even remotely concerned about the unethical behavior you're accusing her of. You're certainly not interested in proving yourself right, so why should any one of us take your claims seriously? Can you imagine a WaterGate reporter disavowing any need to read or research anything about Nixon? You're not concerned with her conduct because this isn't really about her conduct, it's just about demonizing her and women like her in the industry, and the one thing you don't need to properly research is a person's true character when the underlying goal of your efforts is to smear their character.

This is a witch hunt, not a genuine analysis of unethical industry practices.

Don't give me this whole "men need to turn everything about men", because it can be turned around exactly on feminism, "women needing to make everything about women."

You do not seem to understand what feminism is actually about or what the term actually means.

NPF doesn't need all this social justice warrior bullshit anyway.

Your own behavior sure as hell proves NPF does need some serious social justice warrior bullshit, amigo.

[Premmy]

In other words, journalistic ethics and the integrity of the industry is a front. It's a cover. It's deception. The fact that it's deception doesn't necessarily entail that everyone is 'in on it', and in fact I'd bet a majority of those tweeting support of #GamerGate have bought into the lie. It's the same thing as social conservatives in America who genuinely deceive themselves into believing a broader, reconstructed narrative about the KKK in which the KKK is not a racist movement but about 'restoring pride in the south' or confronting social inequalities in impoverished predominantly white rural areas of the south. It's the same thing as tea party members who genuinely buy into the narrative that the tea party is about confronting Wall Street and Big Government to promote the Common Man when the reality of the matter is that every Tea Party member in an actual position of authority -- those who actually stand a chance of being elected to Congress as Republicans -- are actually advocating policies that will benefit Wall Street at the expense of their own supporters.
This is the most important thing. Gamer Gate has proven itself very openly,elsewhere online and in this thread, to be A Social Conservative movement/organization. You want to be a Gamer Republican? well okay. Please stop pretending to be anything else, though.

[Krylo]

RMB and Snake: Both ya'll need to calm down.

Ryong was able to argue from your position, RMB, without doing. . . all that. . . stuff you're doing. Type calm, deep breaths, that kind of thing.

And Snake, please refrain from insulting or instigating RMB further when he's clearly already rather put out.

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:19 PM ----------

Also: Everyone just stop posting links past each other. And definitely don't just post names.

If you want to post a link quote something relevant from it, explain how it fits into the questions the other side is asking, etc.

Don't try to win a debate through: "Well you don't want to read 200 pages of stuff I just linked? CLEARLY you just don't even care about anything but your own narrow world view."

If someone asks for something specific (I.E. Arhra asking for places GG organizes), then feel free to link that. If someone says this source or that source doesn't hold weight with them because of this reason or that reason, either, CALMLY, argue why you don't agree with their argument or find another.

Also, attempt to keep arguments about why an article doesn't sit with you to things the person's actual argument contained. I'm not going to say you necessarily have to follow every link, or that saying "I can't bring myself to watch all that because this person did ______ and it makes me feel ill to look at their face" is out of bounds, but. . .

BUT, that's the beauty of asking you guys to post quotes that are relevant to the current discussion we're having: People don't need to give clicks to sites they don't like, advertising revenue to people they feel are abusive or violent, or look at anyone's face they don't like.

. . . And don't just quote the entire article.

[Solid Snake]

And Snake, please refrain from insulting or instigating RMB further when he's clearly already rather put out.

About 95% of what was actually typed up there was rational, level-headed analysis.
And as for the remaining 5%, given everything that RMB said about Kim and every other 'social justice warrior' here, I can't just let that shit slide. I can't. Like, I understand your perspective re: just doin' your job and all that, but when I'm literally in a position where the two options are calling this out:

NPF doesn't need all this social justice warrior bullshit anyway.

...or letting it slide, you are essentially putting me in a position where the option that results in me being reprimanded by Administration or outright banned is still preferable to the alternative, because the alternative is making this place a hostile environment for Kim and Pocheros and every other woman who'd dare visit NPF despite all the shit being tossed their way.

Like, at one point or another this is about the kind of community you want to foster here, and I'm not going to let RMB or Robin or anyone else bully or demean anyone who dares claim to give a shit about social justice, and I'm not going to let anyone then give me a "Both Sidez" explanation as to why our behavior is in any way equivalent.

I'll never for the life of me understand the NPF Moderation Team's stance regarding reactionary comments and holding those justifiably offended by instigators more responsible than the instigators themselves.

[Marc v4.0]

Look, I'll be nice and calm and chill and have open discussion with however about whatever, i really will, but I'm not really interested in debating around in carefully shifted circles with someone who has made it painfully and obviously clear that they don't think anything of my opinion or viewpoint beyond 'Go fuck yourself'. There is no reasoned discourse to be had from that, especially since it shows no sign of lessening at all, beyond falling -just barely- in line with the rules

I don't owe someone like that anything, much less another moment of my time, and I get 10 times more than enough of it already on my twitter mentions whenever I retweet something related to this, and Twitter doesn't really do anything about it, either.

[Krylo]

That's fine and I agree that RMB was far out of line and did so first. . .

But much like how in the real world if you see someone committing a crime and you're too late to actually stop it, the proper response is not to hit them in the head with a shovel: It's to call the police.

My point wasn't to punish one or both of you, and certainly not to punish you more, it was to ask you both to calm down because if you insult RMB, he's just going to come back doing what he has been doing harder and it's going to hurt everyone else more, which is going to lead to this thread falling apart entirely. You, know, more than it has already.

Nobody has gotten a warning, at least not yet (mostly because I don't give warnings because I don't really want to be a real mod).

Or, shorter version, it's not that I'm not taking sides--RMB was certainly farther out of line and was so first--it's that I'm trying to keep something that people clearly want to talk about as viable to talk about. I'm trying to herd the discussion into productive avenues so that we don't have to ban a bunch of people and/or close a very active thread that was very calm and reasonable not long ago.

ALSO: This thread has suffered enough within context of the thread derails already. I'd prefer any further discussion of this particular thing go to my inbox not into this thread.

EDIT: I guess I could also log into chat in a minute, for a bit. I know most of you guys are there, most of the time.

[shiney]

Ah, people make mistakes sometimes when they get glib. Especially old folks who aren't used to the idea of transexuality being a thing--as that, while gender dysphoria was, it was kinda like being gay in the 20s, no one talked about it, until a couple years ago.

I'm sure Shiney didn't mean anything by it and is likely sorry. Don't take his missteps to heart.

Extremely this. I had several drinks last night and thought I was being funny when in fact I was just insensitive. I am truly sorry for that. There was no malice, just ignorance. :<

For everything else: Also what Krylo said. 'Nuff said.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Your own behavior sure as hell proves NPF does need some serious social justice warrior bullshit, amigo.

"Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism."

I like the rherotic of the Gamer Gate movement. I don't want Journalists and Developers in cahoots or supporting one another. I don't want EA paying for the ad space that sits above the review of their latest game. But Snake, Liz, and maybe Marc (Even though you're a poopoohead) are totally fucking right. The movement is not now, or even never was, about that. Whether or not there were or are portions or leaders of that movement that were out for that purpose is pretty much irrelevant at this point because it's obvious enough that the majority of that leadership, and the majority of those people that are setting the tone are engaged not for that purpose but to drive women out of the ability to take part in the creation or discussion of the industry.

As a movement so far all Gamer Gate has done is make the industry a categorically more unsafe place for Women. It's given misogynists a banner and excuse to rail against them and direct people who probably aren't as misogynist to do the same by painting them as an enemy rather than other people that enjoy games.
I don't like some of the videos Anita makes, and I think it's possible to critique her without being a misogynist. Most of the people I've seen identify with Gamer Gate choose not to. That's basically the blanket case everywhere I've been looking: There's less and less conversation about the issues and more and more blatant attacks on the person.



Also to slightly derail for something Snake said that I could totally be wrong about: I think the controversy with Shadow of Mordor was sparked by an advertising company the publisher hired called Plaid Social, and going further into "things I could be wrong about" Territory, I believe that the developers spoke out against the idea when they heard about it?

That said and to bring it back on topic: One of the last things I looked at for that particular debacle was hashtagged Gamergate. What were people talking about in the comments? The RIDICULOUSLY BOLD FACED CORRUPTION INVOLVED IN TRYING TO FORCE REVIEWERS TO IGNORE THE FAULTS OF THE GAME?
Nope.
Bitching about how boring the combat system was to them.

[synkr0nized]

I'd love to be able to sit here and submit a post that will help bring the thread to a reasonable discourse, to keep NPF members from basically doing nothing but giving one another reasons to not like each other. Because that's all I see happening here -- folks disagreeing, and there is a sufficient gulf between opinions and/or sufficient unwavering rootedness in your positions that I cannot see a positive outcome to this thread.

I'm more interested in NPF being civil to NPF, not judging who's right and who's wrong in debates (Hi, Snake!**). But the more we go on like this, the more I feel like there's no hope for it.


** in reference to your smalltext comment above, not the content of any of your posts here

[shiney]

You guys synk is right. This thread is not likely to change anyone's viewpoint or opinion at this time, and people are firmly entrenched in their positions, bunkered down, and seemingly ready for the long haul. We have to be able to agree to disagree, even over something as basic and important as this, and in any case we can't go about battering each other endlessly and pissing each other off when it's fairly obvious that there is no 'resolution' per se.

With respect, we have a very wide worldview and tolerant approach to SJ and such, but this forum is not intended to be anyone's soapbox and even if some viewpoints are considered to be ignorant or otherwise abhorrent, it's not anyone's role to come in here and clean up the place. It's a small forum dedicated to The Dreadful, and anime, and video games, and friendships. What's going on in this thread is tangentially related to video games, and is destructive to friendships. Let's take a breather.