Attention Snake: I Got Important Anime For You

[Kim]

here is a trailer for a show by ikuhara, aka the penguindrum guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs9NVXjiHiQ)

It's called Yuri Kuma Arashi (Lesbian/Lily Bear Storm)

rampant canonical lesbianism and lesbian fanservice and the character designer is a lady who actually makes yuri manga and i'm so excited!!

[Solid Snake]

Aaaawwwwwwwww yyyyyeeeeeaaaaahhhhhh

[Kim]

Check out this official art (http://dynasty-scans.com/images/3269)

This one too (http://dynasty-scans.com/images/3270)

i love that ikuhara really wanted to make a show about lesbians and actually worked with a lesbian manga author and just embraced wanting it to be fanservicey as fuck

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Might check this out when it comes out.

[Arcanum]

I don't mean for the following question to offend in any way, I'm asking purely out of genuine curiosity and from a position of ignorance when it comes to these kinds of things.

How is a lesbian fan service anime a good thing? Hasn't fan service been a sleezy tactic to draw in more male viewers? And lesbian fan service just seems like something that's trying to rake in views from a male audience.

[Kim]

Uh, like... You do realize that lesbians exist in the real world, too? The involvement of a lesbian author in the creation of the work is actually a really big deal and implies a consideration of women audiences. Also apparently yuri anime does terribly in Japan so while it is fanservice heavy the fact that it actually deals with romance between girls rather than them just non-consensually groping each other does a lot to undermine any straight male audience the fanservice might earn them. Straight dudes love jacking off to girls fooling around with each other but love between girls is abhorrent to a lot of em. Just look at like any discussion where they scream about how two characters can't possibly be in love with each other.

[Arcanum]

Uh, like... You do realize that lesbians exist in the real world, too?

I fail to see how a snarky statement like that contributes in any way here.

The involvement of a lesbian author in the creation of the work is actually a really big deal and implies a consideration of women audiences.

Bayonetta's (and Bayo 2's) lead character designer was a female, and the games still received a lot of flak for Bayo's design. Same with Skull Girls to an extent. What makes this anime different?

Also apparently yuri anime does terribly in Japan so while it is fanservice heavy the fact that it actually deals with romance between girls rather than them just non-consensually groping each other does a lot to undermine any straight male audience the fanservice might earn them. Straight dudes love jacking off to girls fooling around with each other but love between girls is abhorrent to a lot of em. Just look at like any discussion where they scream about how two characters can't possibly be in love with each other.

I tend to avoid digging up conversations like that, but given the small bit of it that I couldn't avoid after the Legend of Korra finale, I see your point.

[Marc v4.0]

Fanservice directed at a hetmale audience is common place, but fanservice directed at queer audiences is very very rare and while it may overlap with hetmale fanservice having it directed specifically at you is important from a representation standpoint.

That's how it is different

[Kim]

I fail to see how a snarky statement like that contributes in any way here.

Well I mean I thought I better check since you thought a show that has significant involvement from a lesbian author who makes yuri manga for other lesbians was clearly pandering to and draw an audience of straight men.

Bayonetta's (and Bayo 2's) lead character designer was a female, and the games still received a lot of flak for Bayo's design. Same with Skull Girls to an extent. What makes this anime different?

I don't really criticize those much in terms of that cuz of the involvement of women in the creation of those games, but the extent to which I am critical has more to do with the men involved than anything else.

I tend to avoid digging up conversations like that, but given the small bit of it that I couldn't avoid after the Legend of Korra finale, I see your point.

Just look at anyone who says Homura and Madoka aren't in love, that Utena and Anthy aren't in love, etc.

[Ryong]

Guild Wars 2 has had a lesbian couple that has had basically no fanservice whatsoever - unless you count their heartfelt first kiss which happened in a cutscene after the defeat of a major villain who had nearly killed one of them as fanservice, somehow - and has consistently been the best example of a working, real relationship that the game has.

...But I guess it's not okay because, as far as I know, no lesbians were involved.

[Nique]

Homosexual relationships must only be portrayed as chaste paragons of virtuous christianesque moral values!

[Kim]

...But I guess it's not okay because, as far as I know, no lesbians were involved.

im getting the distinct impression that you're projecting some shit onto me that i didn't actually say and i'd advise you to not do that

[Ryong]

And I'm getting the distinct impression that what you consider as worthwhile and respectful is arbitrary.

That if these drawings were made by anyone else you'd be outraged at how they're aimed at heterosexual males as a power fantasy, but this one is okay because it's a author you like and he got input from a lesbian.

[Solid Snake]

Aww man, NPF can't even get one full day into the new year without giving Kim its weekly dose of "Fuck you and your strange conceptualization of social justice" trolling bullshit.

Only we heterosexual men can have fanservice, everyone! If
you're a member of the LGBTQ community you can't enjoy anything sexually deviant, 'taboo' or casual, everything you produce has to be award-winning chaste romance until we're comfortable with y'all having sex drives, eeewww.

Also LGBTQ people can't ever produce anything meriting criticism from social justice advocates, dissenting opinions among minority groups ARE NOT ALLOWED, and we privileged assholes have to prevent them from producing diversity in content. That makes all kinds of sense!!!

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Truth be told, there's nothing really inherently wrong with fanservice anime. It can work well when done right.

What they are trying to get at is that it's a lesbian aimed fanservice anime, something Japan rarely gets due to a present but thankfully not rampant social tendency to pretend homosexual women don't exist but they're getting better about that. This is actually the only lesbian themed fanservice anime confirmed for 2015 at the moment. Yeah some do wish for a more serious relationship built around the theme but this show might surprise us.

Snake what the others are trying to say seems more aimed at Fan service being more of a taboo in general no matter where it's aimed now a days. And wondering why this show is getting a pass. (it really isn't judging by the comments I've seen)

[Kim]

And I'm getting the distinct impression that what you consider as worthwhile and respectful is arbitrary.

That if these drawings were made by anyone else you'd be outraged at how they're aimed at heterosexual males as a power fantasy, but this one is okay because it's a author you like and he got input from a lesbian.

*makes a bunch of fart noises with my mouth*

Fun Fact: The other day I was talking about how happy I was that Sleeping Dogs had lesbian NPCs just chilling in a club, being intimate. I have literally no idea who made Sleeping Dogs.

And yeah, when we're talking about fanservice shit yeah it kinda matters who is making it and who it's being made for. I don't understand why that's controversial to you? That maybe lesbian fanservice is improved by being made by lesbians and for lesbians?

And yeah, Ikuhara is involved in the production and he's a guy, but he's also a guy who made a movie with a lesbian relationship as its center, who shows those relationships through more than just fanservice and shit. So, he's earned some benefit of the doubt in my opinion and having a lesbian woman on the production team who herself loves fanservice wins a lot of point with me and others.

But I mean if you wanna project shit onto me cuz of some bullshit high school grudge I mean keep up with your tantrum don't let me stop you. I wanted to make a thread to get Snake's attention to a show I thought he'd like but I guess NPF isn't fucking mature enough for even that?

And to think I was actually feelin kinda bad about this site dying but I guess I wrongly assumed it'd gotten better than this fucking childish horseshit.

[Solid Snake]

No social justice advocate out there with a remotely sex-positive viewpoint is arguing that fanservice is inherently wrong. It's about hetersoexual male content creators and heterosexual men owning disporportionate shares of the pie and fanservice directed at said men dominating even content that ostensibly isn't fanservice. And it's about the distressing problem of heterosexual male fanservice depriving its female characters of agency and deliberately evoking lack of consent as sexually arousing, with real-world consequences.

[Marc v4.0]

I am going to echo that it is pretty horseshit we can't even have a thread about someone being excited about an anime that recognizes and caters to a minority taste without it being turned into some occasion to attack the person excited.

What the fuck happened to this place, seriously.

[Nique]

Ryong, it isn't arbitrary. It's totally possible to enjoy some aspects of media while seeing other problematic aspects of it. Kim is excited for this show, not giving it a pre-emptive pass on anytjing offensive it delivers.

I really don't understand why this is hard to understand and why so many people feel like they need to cry foul when queer folks or SJ advocates express interest in stuff that's sexy.

Edit: and yeah, like, I really don't know why the conversation is taking this turn.

Kim, I love fanservice and I'm glad there's some stuff coming out that more than one type of person can enjoy. Looks hot! But also, Utena's director? I'm in!!!

[Kim]

Can we just make a fucking subforum for RMB and Ryong and everyone else to talk shit on me in so that they don't have to shit other threads up with how much they don't like me?

[Ryong]

It's not like repeatedly any mention of lesbian sex gained a response of "ONLY HETMALES WANT THAT, LESBIANS WANT LESBIAN ROMANCE".

Damned if there's a portrayal of a chaste relationship between lesbians, damned if they're shown to be sexually active unless the portrayal was made by someone you like.

But yeah, no, I can't complain about hypocrisy without it being reduced to "bullshit high school grudge".

Okay, fuck, I'm done.

I've had it with this defense force.

Kim, I've literally nothing against your sexual orientation or the like, but I've everything against you trying your goddamn best every single day to be the ultimate special snowflake, who doesn't want to be regarded as a "sexual deviant", despite working as a camwhore, worshipping a sex goddess, telling everyone nonstop about your fetishes and how you're a pet to a couple and so on. I saw you transition from a dude who wasn't sure of his sexuality to a gay dude to a transgendered lady and, while the discussions here have honestly helped me be a better person, I felt betrayed by an increasingly worse zealotry that pretty quickly reduced itself to "either you agree completely with me and fight for my cause with as much vehemence as me or you're scum". I've said this (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1247366&postcount=44) before to Snake and it also applies to you and hasn't stopped applying to him in the meantime. I genuinely considered you a friend, but at some point your hypocrisy and fervor was too much for me to handle.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Ryong.
What the fuck are you talking about?

[Solid Snake]

There's a pretty seismic difference between yuri fanservice designed unrealistically with the sole purpose of garnering a heterosexual male following as voyeurs, and yuri fanservice designed by a lesbian and a guy with a proven track record for portraying such fanservice respectfully and with the actual interests of a lesbian audience for their story in mind.

How is that controversial? No one's even saying the show will be good; Kim and I have been this excited for objectively AWFUL shows before. (See: Persona 4 Animation.) And once we discovered the content was actually extremely shitty, we criticized something we thought we'd love for being shitty!
CONTROVERSY

[Red Mage Black]

Gee Kim, I was going to keep out of this because Ryong already stated thoughts I had when reading it and I knew my presence would only cause things to get worse. Glad to know you'll shit on me regardless. I don't hate you as a person, I'm beyond hating people themselves. It's your opinions and attitude I don't like. Same with Snake and Marc.

That's all I had to say because you brought me up without provocation.

[Nique]

Ryong, that post was fucking gross. Jesus.

[Solid Snake]

If that isn't worth a permaban we might as we just burn this grotoesque shithole down and call it progress for the year 2015.

[Kim]

I genuinely considered you a friend, but at some point your hypocrisy and fervor was too much for me to handle.

Go fuck yourself. You're no friend of mine.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I am more than willing to take the ban to say the edit to that post was an absolutely fucking disgusting line of thought. There was no reason to throw yourself into a discussion about something Kim and Snake wanted to watch like this, and damn as sure fuck no reason to drag whatever the hell that last paragraph was along with it. And RMB? If you identify with those thoughts and are nodding along like he's spreading the gospel then you're despicable.

What the fuck is wrong with the both of you.

[Solid Snake]

And Mods if you dare throw some temper tantrum at ME for daring to publicly display how insulted I am that someone typed that shit about my
friend and you think I'M the problem go right ahead and permaban me instead, please, Jesus H Christ

[Nique]

Is any mod even online right now? I can't imagine they don't have about a dozen 'report posts' on this thread already.

Also, I can't imagine anyone would come down on you, Snake or anyone besides Ryong who is actually creating a bear and then poking it.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Yeah, best for us to wait and see how this turns out. Could be a good fun ride, could be bad, could be so bad it's good.

[Solid Snake]

At the very least, Ryong and RMB have proven what we've known all along: This has always been and will always be about Kim personally and not about whatever the hell they try to argue in hapless attempts to take potshots at her

---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 PM ----------


Also, I can't imagine anyone would come down on you, Snake or anyone besides Ryong who is actually creating a bear and then poking it.

We've been down this road before, Nique. I want to believe this time will be different but there's a history of coming down harder on the enraged victim and her friends than the instigating trolls

[Arcanum]

At the very least, Ryong and RMB have proven what we've known all along: This has always been and will always be about Kim personally and not about whatever the hell they try to argue in hapless attempts to take potshots at her

Right, because you and Kim are so perfectly innocent when it comes to arguing against them.

[Red Mage Black]

First of all, fuck you, Snake. I was being respectful not entering the discussion and trying to continue along with my project I already talked about. If anyone took pot shots, it was you and Kim at me. It was never about Kim, but feminism and who brought it up the most? That's right! Kim. Kim was never the target. I won't have any part in your fucking blame game.

And Kresh, I have opinions. Scary thought, right?

[Marc v4.0]

Right, because you and Kim are so perfectly innocent when it comes to arguing against them.

The most grievous of crimes: Creating a thread about yuri.

EDIT: I've literally seen people tear Kim apart for shit and then agree with someone else who said the exact same thing, in the same thread. 'Feminism' my ass.

[Nique]

Also, this who 'cult of Kim' theory is bullshit. I've disagreed with Kim a bunch in the past and gotten no hate or retaliation or whatever.

Edit: @ Snake - Oh yeah, that's totally true. What I meant was that this particular incident was more glaringly obvious in displaying Ryong's use of these topics as a platform for axe-grinding

[Kim]

Yeah I'm not gonna really care if I get banned for this like I know I escalated the situation so if they ban me for that whatever but I dunno how long I'm expected to tolerate members of this forum having a hate boner for me and talking shit whenever they're feeling particularly grouchy. RMB acts like I brought him up needlessly but like he's done the same shit to me when he wants to complain about SJWs and The Liberal Agenda so yeah he's relevant to discussions of the members of this forum who are still nursing a grudge against me.

Ryong talks like I deserve to be considered a sexual deviant for being vocal about my sexuality, and for working as a camgirl, since it's a big part of who I am. I'm sorry I can't be as sexually repressed and miserable as you, Ryong.

Also like the accusation that I shit on lesbians in media is frankly bullshit? If I've EVER done it it would have had to be YEARS ago, which just shows how long Ryong's been nursing this fucking grudge.

He accuses me of trying to be a special snowflake and am I supposed to believe there aren't underlying bigotries to that? Which part of me is special snowflake? Being trans? Being pan/bi? Having kinks and fetishes? I'm sorry my being queer has inconvenienced you Ryong I definitely should have repressed that till it killed me.

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A THREAD ABOUT A CUTE SHOW INVOLVING LESBIAN ROMANCE AND FANSERVICE AND SHIT THAT I WAS EXCITED TO SHARE WITH SNAKE WHY THE FUCKING FUCK HAS IT DEVOLVED INTO THIS HORSESHIT

[Solid Snake]

First of all, fuck you, Snake. I was being respectful not entering the discussion and trying to continue along with my project I already talked about. If anyone took pot shots, it was you and Kim at me. It was never about Kim, but feminism and who brought it up the most? That's right! Kim. Kim was never the target. I won't have any part in your fucking blame game.

And Kresh, I have opinions. Scary thought, right?

I interpret your hatred as the best compliment I've received so far, RMB.
Keep digging your grave as you shit on Kim and I over being excited for a goddamn yuri anime, HOW DARE WE try to celebrate that without catering to your attempts to paint us as social justice hypocrites somehow

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Wow this thread went south quick. I'm surprised actually since there really wasn't any reason for this to happen.

Let's all try to stay calm and avoid any personal attacks over a show.

[Marc v4.0]

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A THREAD ABOUT A CUTE SHOW INVOLVING LESBIAN ROMANCE AND FANSERVICE AND SHIT THAT I WAS EXCITED TO SHARE WITH SNAKE WHY THE FUCKING FUCK HAS IT DEVOLVED INTO THIS HORSESHIT



Also

Wow this thread went south quick. I'm surprised actually since there really wasn't any reason for this to happen.

Let's all try to stay calm and avoid any personal attacks over a show.

That's because it had nothing to do with the show at all, it was all about finding a way to attack Kim over something, anything, that could be found. There is no reason for the interrogation and the subsequent accusations and attempts to put words in her mouth, and then that fucked up meltdown of bullshit.

[Arcanum]

The most grievous of crimes: Creating a thread about yuri.

Yeah because this is the only thread that an argument has broken out in.

But whatever, who cares, this thread has devolved into petty insults.

I apologize if my questions played a part in the destruction of this thread, that was not my intention. Might be best just to start a new thread.

Have some music to lighten the mood as you exit the thread. (https://soundcloud.com/the-theme-song/fuck-this-shit-im-out)

[Solid Snake]

Yeah because this is the only thread that an argument has broken out in.

But whatever, who cares, this thread has devolved into petty insults.

I apologize if my questions played a part in the destruction of this thread, that was not my intention. Might be best just to start a new thread.

Have some music to lighten the mood as you exit the thread. (https://soundcloud.com/the-theme-song/fuck-this-shit-im-out)

What boggles my mind is that this is a thread in which Kim is addressing me personally, and probably just choosing NPF as the forum to do so because it's the easiest place for her to reach me. Why try that discussion here if your goal wasn't only and exclusively to antagonize her?

[Arcanum]

What boggles my mind is that this is a thread in which Kim is addressing me personally, and probably just choosing NPF as the forum to do so because it's the easiest place for her to do so. Why try that discussion here if your goal wasn't only and exclusively to antagonize her?

Because it was an open post in an open forum so I assumed it was meant for open discussion, and my questions were related to the topic at hand and in no way directed at Kim personally. If it was meant to be a private affair, there are a multitude of ways to do so, including PMs on this very site.

I made my intentions clear in my first post. Is there a reason you're choosing to ignore them and trying to make me look like I'm trying to attack Kim?

[Kim]

Fun Fact: I only made a thread cuz it's hard to know when Snake will be in chat and his private messages were full.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Because it was an open post in an open forum so I assumed it was meant for open discussion, and my questions were related to the topic at hand and in no way directed at Kim personally. If it was meant to be a private affair, there are a multitude of ways to do so, including PMs on this very site.

I made my intentions clear in my first post. Is there a reason you're choosing to ignore them and trying to make me look like I'm trying to attack Kim?

Could be wrong but I read that as a continuation of response to the idea that Ryong was solely in it to start shit with Kim, not particularly that you had done so as well.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Because it was an open post in an open forum so I assumed it was meant for open discussion, and my questions were related to the topic at hand and in no way directed at Kim personally. If it was meant to be a private affair, there are a multitude of ways to do so, including PMs on this very site.

I made my intentions clear in my first post. Is there a reason you're choosing to ignore them and trying to make me look like I'm trying to attack Kim?

I answered your question earlier in the thread in that fanservice is inherently fine when done well and not forced. And I understand what you were trying to get at. The show is marketed towards lesbians and Yuri fans, that much is made clear by the creators. But like any other show it will attract other audiences too. So some heterosexual and bisexual males and females are likely going to check it out too. Nothing really wrong with gaining attention within and outside of the target audience though. The extra ratings could work to the show's advantage and can be a nice sign of acceptance.

[Krylo]

Closing for now.

In the meantime: Ryong, why did you come into this thread with the clear intent to do nothing but start a shit storm?

Everyone else: Kyanbu was the best poster in this thread.

[McTahr]

This is currently under review.

[Fenris]

Guild Wars 2 has had a lesbian couple that has had basically no fanservice whatsoever - unless you count their heartfelt first kiss which happened in a cutscene after the defeat of a major villain who had nearly killed one of them as fanservice, somehow - and has consistently been the best example of a working, real relationship that the game has.
This was a pretty okay post until

...But I guess it's not okay because, as far as I know, no lesbians were involved.
This part because it directly violates this part of the rules:



Trolling: Trolling: Do not make statements only to get angry responses. Also, do not reply to such statements, just report the post and leave it alone.



im getting the distinct impression that you're projecting some shit onto me that i didn't actually say and i'd advise you to not do that

This is Kim pointing out that you are violating this part of the rules and is actually politely asking you to back off.

And I'm getting the distinct impression that what you consider as worthwhile and respectful is arbitrary.

That if these drawings were made by anyone else you'd be outraged at how they're aimed at heterosexual males as a power fantasy, but this one is okay because it's a author you like and he got input from a lesbian.

*makes a bunch of fart noises with my mouth*



Flaming: Do not be aggressive towards or insult other forum members, whether actively ("John, you're a dick") or passively ("anyone who likes Pokemon must be retarded").



Both of these posts violate this part of the rules - Kim's less so, esp. given the history of Ryong fairly consistently being belligerent towards Kim.


Okay, fuck, I'm done.

I've had it with this defense force.

Kim, I've literally nothing against your sexual orientation or the like, but I've everything against you trying your goddamn best every single day to be the ultimate special snowflake, who doesn't want to be regarded as a "sexual deviant", despite working as a camwhore, worshipping a sex goddess, telling everyone nonstop about your fetishes and how you're a pet to a couple and so on. I saw you transition from a dude who wasn't sure of his sexuality to a gay dude to a transgendered lady and, while the discussions here have honestly helped me be a better person, I felt betrayed by an increasingly worse zealotry that pretty quickly reduced itself to "either you agree completely with me and fight for my cause with as much vehemence as me or you're scum". I've said this (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showpost.php?p=1247366&postcount=44) before to Snake and it also applies to you and hasn't stopped applying to him in the meantime. I genuinely considered you a friend, but at some point your hypocrisy and fervor was too much for me to handle.

3 strikes, you're out.

THAT ALL SAID Kim you could have avoided a whole bunch of this by including in the OP why you opted to make a thread instead of PMing him or whatevs.

Fun Fact: I only made a thread cuz it's hard to know when Snake will be in chat and his private messages were full.

Like this post probably should have been said at the beginning? It looks like you were intending this thread to be more of a personal discussion and less of a public one?

And Mods if you dare throw some temper tantrum at ME for daring to publicly display how insulted I am that someone typed that shit about my
friend and you think I'M the problem go right ahead and permaban me instead, please, Jesus H Christ

As an aside, get over yourself, dude. The only person in this thread who was actually shat on without doing anything in this thread beforehand was RMB and considering where this turned he's been remarkably civil as well.

TL;DR, Ryong came into the thread to antagonize, so he's banned for 2 months. RMB, you're not banned (because you didn't cross any lines in this discussion) but I might suggest looking elsewhere for your online gatherings for your own happiness.

Kim, Marc, Snake, etc., I'm gonna say the thing you hate and tell you to be nicer because while you were pretty heavily baited into this big 'ol ball of bullshit, you still went and made the ball a whole lot shittier.