"When Does A Joke Become Offensive" or "Because If South Park Can Make It Funny..."

[Seil]

You might remember that in 2010, I made a thread (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=37352&) about whether or not comedians should be held accountable for things that they say. I thought that it was an interesting news story worthy of some discussion. I also thought that the discussion would end up as "Of course he should. Everyone should be held accountable for what they say."

It was about a comedian named Guy Earle, who responded to lesbian hecklers and started arguing with them while he was on stage. He said some awful things and they did too. It sparked some controversy.

Why does this not?

oqiGWd0-0Os6tkZuLixZOk
K7lIO9vd5Pg

Because it's funny? Because they present it in a completely different way? At what point does a joke become offensive?

Does it depend on the audience's practicalities?

[Aerozord]

I'd say because "controversy" goes through trends. Right now homosexual and women's rights is a very hot button issue thus people care alot more if they are offended. Thats not to say the actual offensiveness changes, only media's response to it.

Personally I think offensive humor can do alot of good but also a way to measure equality. Humor can poke fun at prejudice by showing how absurd it is, and two parties able to take a joke shows they aren't really antagonistic to each other. Notice how close friends often insult each other. This is all of course assuming this is the intent of the comedian. There are of course comedians that legitimately believe the horrible things they are saying and use it to degrade people. Thats one reason anyone with a thick skin isn't offended by South Park. There is no ill intent, no agenda, no bias, they just do what they think is funny.

So whether its good or bad I think is intent. Whether people are offended or not depends mostly on the person.

[Premmy]

You might remember that in 2010, I made a thread (http://www.nuklearforums.com/showthread.php?t=37352&) about whether or not comedians should be held accountable for things that they say. I thought that it was an interesting news story worthy of some discussion. I also thought that the discussion would end up as "Of course he should. Everyone should be held accountable for what they say."

It was about a comedian named Guy Earle, who responded to lesbian hecklers and started arguing with them while he was on stage. He said some awful things and they did too. It sparked some controversy.

Why does this not?

oqiGWd0-0Os6tkZuLixZOk
K7lIO9vd5Pg

Because it's funny? Because they present it in a completely different way? At what point does a joke become offensive?

Does it depend on the audience's practicalities?

Yes. Those bits are all pretty terrible and stupid but those three comedians are established enough that noone in that audience likely cares or is there to hear anything that challenges them. Also giant venues like those tend to discourage individual audience response like that.

[Kim]

"offensive humor" is generally what is referred to as punching down

i.e. it's someone in a position of privilege reducing those less privileged than them, at least along certain axis, to stereotypes and/or a punching bag

this is called edgy comedy, but it isn't really

if i wanted to hear someone throw around the r word, there are plenty of popular people with massive audiences who do

if I wanted to hear some cis dude use the word tranny or see women like me depicted as bearded men in dresses, i'd turn on 90% of comedies

if i wanted sexism, i can find it pretty much everywhere in every bit of my life, even extreme examples of misogyny aren't exactly hard to find

so what do we mean when we talk about "edgy" or "off-limits" humor? we mean oft ignored and mistreated segments of society will call the humor out for the bigotry it is, a bunch of fans will respond with harassment and death threats, and the person who made the joke will dig the hole even deeper

and honestly it seems to be getting worse because of lazy comedy and lazy audiences who decry political correctness when people who already get shit on all the time get upset on being further shit on

nothing is less edgy than "edgy" humor

if you want to actually be edgy, make jokes at the expense of police. not for them being "fat" or eating donuts or whatever. but actually make jokes at the expense of cops because of their racism and shit.

that'll offend some well off privileged types.

[Aerozord]

As I said, its a barometer of equality. If a black guy can make a joke about a white guy, but a white guy cant make a joke about a black guy, than society doesn't view them as equal.

[Seil]

Yes. Those bits are all pretty terrible and stupid but those three comedians are established enough that noone in that audience likely cares or is there to hear anything that challenges them. Also giant venues like those tend to discourage individual audience response like that.

What about George Carlin's early stuff?

---------- Post added at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

fyzBO_etwko

---------- Post added at 10:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------

g7Vx1YHgW7k

[Kyanbu The Legend]

That line is always a slippery one. Primarily because of how much Dark Humor relies on how well you know them, trust, and intentions. And for some groups time is still healing their wounds. With harsh jokes being the last thing they need/want to hear.

Some would say that you need to be tough and endure it. Or understand that it's all just a joke (it isn't always). I've even been working on ironing up to avoid being harmed by words as much as possible. But not everyone is able to do that. And it's never an excuse to use it without respecting the wishes of some else. Nor as a means of harassment/abuse/revenge.

I understand the more rational fears of things becoming too politically correct. A fear that we'll lose the ability to criticize those that commit wrong doings because of nationality/gender/age/social status. And the belief that it can stifle artistic freedom. But at the same time, until we as a species are in a much better society. Until we can break away from our tendency to empower words and/or allow words to harm us. It's best to tread carefully or just outright avoid Dark Humor entirely imo.

[MSperoni]

I think a major difference in a good "edgy" comedian and a dick just out to insult people less privileged is the former realizes what they're saying isn't funny and then plays on that*. The latter is just doing it for the lulz. They're just being mindlessly offensive. Like when a two year old says "poop".

Also pay attention to what Kim said about "punching down". There's a big difference in, say, me making fun of a rich asshole getting drunk and shitting all over his sportscar and me making a joke about of a poor kid who had to eat ketchup packets for snacks.

"Lol stupid poor kid why don't you just die and decrease the surplus population? lol why don't you give out handjobs for cash? Lol." = not funny

*think about all the horrible and offensive things Black Mage says and does for instance. It works because Brian knows BM is an asshole and punishes him for it. The same is found in characters like Archie Bunker, Kenny Powers and, to a degree, Cartman. Part of the reason it works is because the writer knows the character is wrong.

[Nique]

It's difficult to pinpoint which jokes are actually edgy and not just truly offensive, but there are multiple factors that go into it, as Kyanbu mentioned.

For example, John Mulaney has a bit in 'New in Town' about women being friends that seems to come from a pretty bad place and I don't really find funny at all. But he has a bit about his Jewish girlfriend that he pre-emptively warns the audience is going to 'get playfully anti-semetic' but doesn't really seem to because he appears to be ironically, and more importantly clearly ironically, expanding on a cultural trait.

Even if the last bit I mentioned has some problematic aspects to it, there isn't anything about it that utilizes a power dynamic to 'punch down' (had not heard this phrase before - fits perfectly with what I was thinking, thanks Kim!) at his girlfriend or at Jews, whereas the former joke does, albeit unintentionally.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

Nothing is sacred, nothing is ever too soon, everything is fodder.

[Nique]

Nothing is sacred, nothing is ever too soon, everything is fodder.

Ah yes, the of motto of sociopaths everywhere.

[Kim]

Ah yes, the of motto of sociopaths everywhere.

+1

Like, Skweeb, your little statement is the motto of assholes.

And frankly it's fucking childish as shit to idolize being an asshole.

[Nique]

+1

...

And frankly it's fucking childish as shit to idolize being an asshole.

True, and a lot of people frustratingly wear 'asshole' as some weird badge of pride.

However, I think Skweeb might have trying to be ironic? Skweeb just somewhat recently chastised Aero for joking in the Veterans thread so I can't imagine that was a serious comment.

[Kim]

ah, my bad if so

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

It's a campfire mystery of the ages!

[synkr0nized]

You seem to be pretty upset about comedians, and since you brought it up...

Same. I guess that comics are exploiting stereotypes, race and life styles for comedic effect, and that there is a double standard where the n-word is different coming from a white and black person, but I'm still going to laugh at Chris Rock's material. I'm going to laugh not because I dislike black people, white people, gay people or straight people. I'm not laughing because I'm ignorant to what's going on in the world, or because I think that someone deserves to be made fun of.

I'm laughing because I think it's funny.

... do you no longer find it funny?

[Seil]

Yes. I understand that the intent of the comedian is not to offend anyone's ethnicity or sexuality or religious beliefs - but that's my view on it. And I'm not the only person in the audience. There's a group of people laughing at something that if it were said in any other situation, it would be labelled as hate speech.

[Doc ock rokc]

When it's intended to be offensive in the first place. But in that situation its not a joke anyway.

When you are personally offended by something you can be. You have the right to be offended by everything and share this view. Just as people have the right to not be offended and enjoy the joke. This is normal, No one can please everybody. Some people don't like their sex/religion/political party/freedoms/what have you insulted/questioned. I mean I love Titus and some of the more radical but hilarious things he says. However I can't STAND when he jokes about suicide. I know my personal stance on it and I know that His personal stance is different and just because it is different I don't need to throw a hissy fit because it offended me.

Overall I don't think anything is truly offensive unless it is in it's entirety something created to offend you. Then it's an attack. Even then you should exercise your humor and try to brush it off.

[pochercoaster]

I think people tend to mix up jokes about controversial subjects with jokes that are actually offensive. E.g. there are racial jokes, and racist jokes. I think Key & Peele or Wanda Sykes, for example, make a lot of racial jokes but they are about deconstructing racism, and that is a lot more unexpected and humorous than Tosh going "lol black people" which is just straight up racism. Comedians should dig deep and make some actual analysis- regurgitating the status quo of bigotry is about as funny as a first grader amused by fart jokes, and it also makes you an asshole.

zB7MichlL1k

3zDHSLDY0Q8

Also this is probably one of my favourite jokes of all time:

R8FfFwtL91Q