Anime forums

[Xivilized]

Is it just me, or do all anime forums suck?

By 'suck,' I mean full of DBZ/Inu-Yasha fanboys/girls who can't type and spam the boards with versus threads and "Who is your favorite" threads. I've been to quite a lot, mind you, and they're all similair. Actually, this little animation sub-forum is the most civilized I've been to.

So, am I just neurotic, or am I right? Also, does anyone know of any anime forums that they like? It's really frustrating for me, for I love forums and I love anime, but the two just don't seem to want to mix.

Thanks :p

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Yes, quite alot are not very good. I am on 4 major forums, three devoted to Anime and sadly, two of them are like this. Even here though, we get enough of those types of people.

I have one recommendation for a forum, but I don't want to give it out to everybody (to encourage what you're talking about from not happening). Its totally devoted to Anime though and has people mostly talking about shows nor just on American TV and actual intellegent conversation about Anime.

Except for 1 spammer who's kinda just.....wierd. -_- If you want the link, send me a PM.

[synkr0nized]

Is it just me, or do all anime forums suck?

By 'suck,' I mean full of DBZ/Inu-Yasha fanboys/girls who can't type and spam the boards with versus threads and "Who is your favorite" threads. I've been to quite a lot, mind you, and they're all similair. Actually, this little animation sub-forum is the most civilized I've been to.

So, am I just neurotic, or am I right? Also, does anyone know of any anime forums that they like? It's really frustrating for me, for I love forums and I love anime, but the two just don't seem to want to mix.

Thanks :p

When someone bothers to post a topic on the anime subforums at clanBOB, it's typically not about being fanboy-ish, characters fighting in versus threads, or favorite threads (be that series, character, or the like). I tend to enjoy that much more than the majority of topics here.

Beyond that, the other forums I post at are merely for one or two webcomics. Other than animemusicvideos.org, which is a pretty damn big community -- you'll find almost any kind of thread there.

[h4x.m4g3]

Yeah there are way to manyy people who watch DBZ/Inuyasha and think they r0x0rZ my s0x0rZ and don't give anything else a chance. Then the few people who actually do know Anime come and can't find anyone to hold a decent conversation with it. We go in and ask questions about Anime that hasn't been on Cartoon Network and get "OMFG that sux0rZ so hArD DbZ fuckin pwns Everything"

[Shinta]

I agree. But its everywhere, not just in forums but also chatrooms... I have no prob with people that like/love to roleplay or talk about anime, I just had enough of these children/people that think that dbz or inu are the best thing ever made. I know that when im lucky enought o come across someone that loves something else its great because they endured the morons long enough for me to chat with them.

I mean yea, I like Inuyasha and DB series, but i need to know about other series something worth watching and what-not. I feel that these are nothing more than intro animes, and I use to watch nothing but these but I continued to find different animes and come to love animes with a love story or a philisophical undertone.

But that being said enough is enough, we seriously have to tak back the forums from the narrow-minded and educate those that think they are anime fans when they are in my opinion still newbies to the wide and enriching atmosphere that is the anime world

[Nosferatu]

I've seen this all to often... normaly i get PO'ed and lecture the crap outa em to point whre they normaly all shut-up and leave b/c they cant reply. ^_^;;

Thres more Anime than shown on Cartoon Network ppl! and YES Adult swim does count as cartoon network..... for christ sakes probaly 95% of ALL anime cannot be shown on CN mainly b/c CN cant edit it enough to meet the standards set down by it's self. I use to love DBZ, but then i just got bored of it and moved on untill i found more animes, like Bubblegum Crisisi Tokyo 2040, and 3x3 eye's .... awww animidnight thank you so much..... I just stopped going to the Anime forums a long time ago... so this doesn't take over...

:bmage: KILL THEM ALL!!!! :bmage:

Btw... i've been wanting to DL Ramma 1/2 series for a lil while can sum1 tell me bout the series in general?

[h4x.m4g3]

I've seen some and read a few of the Mangas but here's how it goes

Ranma Satome as a master martial artist, and whenever he is splashed with water he turns into a woman. He gets splashed with hot water to turn back. The first episode is when hefirst starts turning into a woman. There are several other people who also face similar predicements, but they turn into animals when splashed such as his father becoming a panda.

[synkr0nized]

I've seen this all to often... normaly i get PO'ed and lecture the crap outa em to point whre they normaly all shut-up and leave b/c they cant reply. ^_^;;

Thres more Anime than shown on Cartoon Network ppl! and YES Adult swim does count as cartoon network..... for christ sakes probaly 95% of ALL anime cannot be shown on CN mainly b/c CN cant edit it enough to meet the standards set down by it's self.
Hey d3wd!11! Like, OMG! CN is forced to adhere to certain levels of editing because they are considered a children's network by the FCC. The folks at Williams' Street (and whoever else at CN/Turner) are doing what they can to change that. Notice how several of the [adult swim] shows run the same as they do on the actual DVD?

I'd love to see one of your "lectures."


As for Ranma 1/2, Ranma Saotome and his father go off to train in China. They end up training at Jusenkyo, where several cursed springs are located. The short story - Ranma falls into the Spring of Drowned Girl (Nyannichuan) after his father had fallen into and lept out of the Spring of Drowned Panda (Shonmaoniichuan).

As h4x.m4g3 has described, the "change" occurs depending on the water and its temperature that they touch (cold to whatever curse they have, warm to return to normal).

The Saotomes return to Japan, and to the Tendo dojo of Anything Goes Martial Arts, where Ranma was arranged to marry one of the Tendo girls. As the series goes on, Ranma meets many more characters (Kuno, Ryoga, Kodachi, Shampoo, Moose, Happosai, etc..), and it keeps getting more insane.

At the heart, in true Takashi style, there is a love story.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Everything put on Cartoon Network both has to adheir to a strict code of TV ethics they think Americans won't tollerate. Furthermore, everything being put on TV is felt to be needed in a Dub format, thereby distancing itself from alot of 'core' Anime fans and making alot of potential Anime fans dislike the show because of the voices (yes, shows such as Kenshin, DBZ and Sailor Moon have actually deterred more people I know from Anime at an early stage because of their dubs than drawn them in).

Then they only pick a certain type of show, constantly preferring one of what I call the 'big three'. Either Mecha, DBZ-like or other quizi-adult like Anime (such as Bebop or Kenshin). Then add in a TON of editing an 'Americinization' and rerun the episodes 100s of times until America is sick of it and you have not only a formula for disaster, but isolation promoted by Cartoon Network.

There. Don't know what you'll agree with but there's my 'Lecture' in a can. Nowhere near discribing it to its fullest, but the VERY general concepts laid out.

And Ranma = a typical Rumiko Takahashi love story with various different characters put in. I like it, but it can easily be switched with many of her other series such as Urusei Yatsura or other works just with different characters and slight perdicaments.

And final point. Anime on TV is Bad. Make of that what you will. And I won't be here for 2 days so if you're gonna flame me, I won't read it for a while. So, bye.

[h4x.m4g3]

Actually other channels that play anime have some Good ones
check out Anime unleashed on Tech TV series like Lain, Soultaker, Gatekeepers, Silent Mobeius, Crest of the Stars don't adhere to the "Cartoon Network Rules"
In short Find The Right Channel and its not Cartoon Network

[Funka Genocide]

you already left? that sucks, oh well, here goes my 2 cents worth...

I love Rumiko Takahashis work, despite its seemingly formulaic plots, the characters are always so easy to get to know, Ryoga kind of reminds me of myself actually, at least his sense of direction. About cartoon network, I applaud its efforts at bringing anime to a wider audience, as many faults as a may find in there presentation, I can't help but feel its the right way to do it. People are lazy, they don't want to read subtitles, plus the target audience (children) might be left behind. And they take great examples of popular genres and place them on the air. Its getting the Japanese foot in the door, so to speak. At the least it makes people aware of the existence of Japanese culture, and at the best it incites interest to the point of watching more anime, learning more about the culture, and gaining a deeper understanding of societies other than our own. The first anime I ever saw was Sailor Moon, and while its not my favorite genre, it was so radically different from anything I ever saw that I had to watch it. Sailor Moon is garbage compared to Cowboy Bebop or Rurouni Kenshin, yet its still good in its own way. Eventually this initial exposure to anime led to a fascination, which led to me moving to Japan. So showing anime to kids in an easy to understand format is definitely a good thing, its just no longer enjoyable for those of us who have seen real, unedited and subtitled anime. Perhaps there is a hint of bitterness in me, but all in all I think Cartoon Network is doing a great job.

[h4x.m4g3]

Cartoon Network is a good beginner channel I'll gve it that. But when most people think of Anime on American TV they need to realize cartoon network isn't the only option. If you can stand to stay up late check out Tech TV, and If you can stand reading subtitles (When your lucky) try the International channel. But what we really need is the return of the Saturday SC-FI channel Anime Movie. It's where I saw my first anime, Fist of Fury, and a bunch of other great movies that were alot racier than Cartoon Network's romp. Man when I was young that was the Ideal Saturday,

Saturday Morning Fox Cartoons (They were better back then): 7-11
SC-FI Anime Movie: 11-2
Whatever else I could find-Rest of day

[Nosferatu]

Cartoon Network is a good beginner channel I'll gve it that. But when most people think of Anime on American TV they need to realize cartoon network isn't the only option. If you can stand to stay up late check out Tech TV, and If you can stand reading subtitles (When your lucky) try the International channel. But what we really need is the return of the Saturday SC-FI channel Anime Movie. It's where I saw my first anime, Fist of Fury, and a bunch of other great movies that were alot racier than Cartoon Network's romp. Man when I was young that was the Ideal Saturday,

Saturday Morning Fox Cartoons (They were better back then): 7-11
SC-FI Anime Movie: 11-2
Whatever else I could find-Rest of day

I praise god for Techtv and G4tv hookin up :D , before i heard from me friends all time bout the anime's that showed up on techTV but i didn't have it >_< , but now since its G4Techtv i get to watch em. Right now i'm hooked on Duel! Terrible Parralel trouble. I've seen alota anime's out there from many different channals and most wont be able to adhere to CN's standards.. thats why i kinda bash em alot... Adult swim is nice, but for only like 2-3 shows. I kinda like Case closed right now but its getting kinda repedative.

Animidnight: Friday at Midnight, normaly 1 movie, OVA, or 3 epi's for a series.
Currently showing Street Fighter 2, which i beleive is made by same people who made Fist of north star.

G4TechTv: Every day, midnight. 1 episoad 30 min 2 shows. Cureently showing Duel! Terrible PArralel Trouble!, and Serial Experiments : Lain i think it is..

[Sithdarth]

Being the insanely poor bastard I am the only Anime I get is CN. I started out with DBZ which got me hooked. Then I branched to Yu Yu Hakusho before I foun adult swim. Now I watch DBGT, YYH, Case Closed, Cowboy Bebop, Wolf Rain, Inuyasha, Witch Hunter Robin, and Trigun on a regular basis. Right now I'm torn between Wolf Rain and Trigun as my favorites. If I had any sort of money I'd be out buying what I could but with college and no job I'm actually in debt really deep right now. I would download but I only have crappy dialup so that is out too.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

I love Rumiko Takahashis work, despite its seemingly formulaic plots, the characters are always so easy to get to know, Ryoga kind of reminds me of myself actually, at least his sense of direction. About cartoon network, I applaud its efforts at bringing anime to a wider audience, as many faults as a may find in there presentation, I can't help but feel its the right way to do it. People are lazy, they don't want to read subtitles, plus the target audience (children) might be left behind. And they take great examples of popular genres and place them on the air. Its getting the Japanese foot in the door, so to speak. At the least it makes people aware of the existence of Japanese culture, and at the best it incites interest to the point of watching more anime, learning more about the culture, and gaining a deeper understanding of societies other than our own. The first anime I ever saw was Sailor Moon, and while its not my favorite genre, it was so radically different from anything I ever saw that I had to watch it. Sailor Moon is garbage compared to Cowboy Bebop or Rurouni Kenshin, yet its still good in its own way. Eventually this initial exposure to anime led to a fascination, which led to me moving to Japan. So showing anime to kids in an easy to understand format is definitely a good thing, its just no longer enjoyable for those of us who have seen real, unedited and subtitled anime. Perhaps there is a hint of bitterness in me, but all in all I think Cartoon Network is doing a great job.

See, this is the problem. Thanks for not flaming and I'd love to talk about this, so let's do it. -_-

Basically, the concept of them bringing Anime to America was great and in the beginning, it needed to be dubbed yes. The only problem is, we have gone over 30 years now with Anime being dubbed on American TV and we haven't had a major try to show anything in the original language. That aside, I'm gonna hit on two points.

People are lazy, they don't want to read subtitles, plus the target audience (children) might be left behind. And they take great examples of popular genres and place them on the air. Its getting the Japanese foot in the door, so to speak.

The problem with this is that, besides them not taking the 'next' step which would be to air these shows in their original, un-altered and non-dubbed forms, they have continued to show them not just dubbed, but make every effort to make sure the Dub is pleasing to everyone in their 'target audiance'. What this does is, they sacrifice the original voices and then make edits and even change the script, add to the script and try every possible thing to salvage a show even if they have to rename it, change the entire point of the show and keep you from seeing half of it (Sailor Moon, CardCaptor Sakura, Escaflowne).

The best allusion I could give is, say someone in Japan took Star Trek (The Original Series) and in every episode where there's a reference not understandable to a Japanese person, replaced it with a Japanese counterpart. Now, in such episodes involving say....a famous one where they go back in time to what is suppose to be a type of '1920's Chicago', what drastic measures would have to be made to alter the entire episode that is basically just filled with nothing but references to 1920's Chicago and try to portray the thing as say....1970's Osaka (a good Yakuza ganstar time period equivilant)? Either they would have to HEAIVILY edit the episode or just cut it all together.

Let's try a simpler example as well, using an actual Anime this time. In the show CardCaptor Sakura, when it was brought to America, the Dub took the show and decided to cut off Sakura as the star and make both Sakurs and Li-kun as the star. In doing so, the name was changed to 'Cardcaptors' and many other changes were made (such as taking out the psuedo-gay references between Touya and Yukito and Li's attraction to Yukito in the first season). Then since they've made all these edits, all these other problems arise. Since Sakura is suppose to be the star of the original show, 75% of the episodes just center on her. Well if you're going to focus on Li as being a co-star to Sakura, you're going to have to cut out a ton of episodes to compensate for her extreme air time and focus on the plot. And that's exactly what they did, cutting half the first season and the entire second season from TV release. Then since you can't have those semi-homosexual references since this is a "kids show" (which the original was hardly targetting only kids), you have to make major edits to the script and cut out multiple scenes from MANY episodes, especially the third season. And cutting those scenes means you have to change theformat of the show and because the format of the show is changed, the script has to be changed even MORE.....

As you can see, THIS is what happens when you have to dub something. "Cardcaptors" (CardCaptor Sakura) is an extreme example, much like Sailor Moon or DragonballZ, but not a single Dub I have ever heard of or seen (which I do look into these things everytime a new one comes out on Cartoon Network or whatnot) has not changed a script, edited any scenes or altered the meaning of an episode (or entire series). So while many may think the bringing of Anime to America by dubbing it on TV and allowing a mass market is just 'fine', I think has been a continual step backwards into what could have been one of the best things to ever be brought to America. And not only hasn't it changed, but it grows more predominant and more and more people accept it, for reasons I will go into next...

The first anime I ever saw was Sailor Moon, and while its not my favorite genre, it was so radically different from anything I ever saw that I had to watch it. Sailor Moon is garbage compared to Cowboy Bebop or Rurouni Kenshin, yet its still good in its own way.

Whither or not Sailor Moon is not to your liking in a genre sense, I cannot say. I'm not going to question your tastes because we all have them. But I will say this. The combonation of all I said before plus stereotypes placed on certain shows and the quality of the voices in the dub has an influence on you that you probably don't know.

I am willing to wager that if you were one who would watch Cowboy Bebop and Kenshin in its original version, fully, and then watch all of Sailor Moon to its fullest (26 Episodes, 90 Episodes and 200 Episodes respectively), I would be willing to bet you would most actually enjoy Sailor Moon just like the other two. I'm not saying you would like it more or that you would even like it enough to admit you liked it, but you would probably most definitly have liked it more than the American version and I can tell you, the version you saw should not be considered even with the other dubbed works.

Now, duh. I'm biased against Dubs and prefer Subs. I'm going to hit on 2 thing here so try to see both points. But while Dubs always change things (I hope that's not an issue to see), Sailor Moon its put into the category like CardCaptor Sakura and some others that took the original story and for all their own reasons, completely changed it to what they wanted. If you can think of anything from the show, it was changed. In this way, what you saw of Sailor Moon was not only Incomplete but totally changed in practically every aspect (The first three seasons which were shown are missing about 40 episodes total {out of 125} and many episodes were edited along with that).

Now, to go along with this, I have not just blindly given this statement to you. Over my years, as I have said here, I have met MANY people who watched those shows on Cartoon Network, from Sailor Moon to Kenshin, Pokemon to DBZ. And out of all of the ones who I gave them the 'original' show, all but one returned to me not only praising the original stating it is not only monumentaly different from the version they saw, but much better. For any show I did this with and especially Sailor Moon and Kenshin. So not only are edits, bad voices and missing material against Sailor Moon (and almost all other shows on American TV), but the fact that there's a version, the original version, that can simply be seen for ANY Anime that can keep a person from experiencing this.

Which comes down to my last point and something I think we are going to see someday, but not for a very long time. Why can't an American Television station try to air a show in the original form with subs? Ture, Americans don't like to read while they watch something. But look what the result of one simple flaw of effort brings about as a result? Edits, cuts, bad voices, shows never even being aired on American TV, script changes, loss of a MAJOR section (perhaps even the majority) of core Anime fans, conflicting edits in all these areas and the core problem that sums it all up, just the fact that it isn't the original version at all.

One little problem with a lack of effort that I definitly see being able to be fixed has produced all of this, and many more problems I can't even think off at the moment. If I can get 12 year olds and 52 year olds to not only watch but prefer the original form of an Anime dispite the 'hastle' of Subtitles, I believe with the power and downright force these American TV and Anime Distributors have put into pushing and keeping dubs on TV can be fixed. Won't be easy, but neither was creating the problem we see today...much less keeping it going and feeding it to the public.

[Sithdarth]

Dubs wouldn't be bad if they just did one thing. That is take the sub text and use that as the new script leaving everything else alone. Perhasp getting an artist to make the mouths match the words and leave it at that. It solves both the editing and reading problems and seems like less work than cutting and editing all that stuff out.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Dubs wouldn't be bad if they just did one thing. That is take the sub text and use that as the new script leaving everything else alone. Perhasp getting an artist to make the mouths match the words and leave it at that. It solves both the editing and reading problems and seems like less work than cutting and editing all that stuff out.

That could be a reasonable change compared to what we have today, but many would think the voices were still bad, aknowledge that the body's movements and such would be akward and most would just say its not worth it and just want the original Seiyuu (voices).

When you really look at it, all the ways you slice a dub, its still just doing so much to change one little lack of effort Americans have to read something on the screen. Your idea is a much better idea I think would be good for Dubbing, but still doesn't fix all the problems and most importantly, wouldn't get done because it would require artists whose job it was to simply edit out a previous artists work. In effect, replacing a script changer with a pack of mouth-movement artists.

See....just showthe original think with one guy getting paid 2000 dollars to subtitle the whole show and the company saves time, money and brings all the fans together....that is once the others get use to reading subtitles. Its true, you really just get use to reading the subs. I can read an entire line of Subtitles in less than a second.

[Sithdarth]

Reading the subs isn't the problem with me so much because I love to read. I don't like subs because they make me read and watch TV at the same time and when I sit to watch TV I do it because I don't want to read.

They really don't have to even change the mouth movement. I threw that in just because some people like to make fun of movie dubs. As for voices, I don't really think you lose anything by not hearing the orginal voice you couldn't understand anyway. However, for gods sake get an actual voice actor and stick with him/her. Even the best imitators are never spot on. (Oops spliped into Brit mode.)

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Hopefully us discussing this being seen as civilized and quite cool so I'll just go on with it.

I can see where when you want to stop reading you go to watch stuff. Sometimes I feel that way too, but as I have watched so much Anime over the years, the subtitles have become second nature to me so that it doesn't feel as though I'm 'reading' something but that they're there as a guide and I can picture them as what the character is actually saying. Its hard to explain, but this is kinda what I do:

I read the subtitle, usually sub-conciously, under or taking about a second. It then is stored in my brain and my eye flows to the screen to what is going on. Then with the information in my head, I place the sentance to the tones of the Japanese seiyuu. If he said 'Hey you.' in the subtitle and the voice was peppy and loud, then it natually passes off as that. I don't have to gather that from the subtitle because the voice expresses the characters.....expression. One of the biggest things Anime is noted for is that it is a medium where emotions and intonation is highly predominant and if I am to be so bold, I see many dubs lacking in this respect, either with the English voice not expressing the emotion or with them doing it incorrectly. Not only is the Japanese language different in the way it looks and is spelled, but English is a very monotone language that can get away with talking in basically 3 different 'tones'. However in Japanese....1 word can mean 10 different things, just each different meaning is expressed by the tone of the voice and not a different spelling of the word or how it is used in a sentance. So when you watch an Anime, if you watched something in English the voice could sound quite dull and go through the line not even changing his tone, and get away with it. But in Japanese, they must change the tone of their voice and express words in certain ways to have them be not only understood emotinally, but gramatically. And so an English dub can be hurt from this constant shifting of trying to decide where an English actor should change his intonation and how often he should sound monotone to sound more 'natural' English.

Anyway, with the emotion portraying what the sentance of the screen said, you begin over time (a very short period of time at that) to develop a sub-conceious ability to anticipate how a character will react and what emotions are portrayed by the subtitle itself, further increasing the speed of your reading of it and the impact of what the character is expressing. Its going to sound silly to you, but this is why so many of us 'Sub Lovers' think our 'Seiyuu' (Japanese Voice Actors) are so great. These type of common traits which they create pass from show to show and you identify with them. And they become part of the 'Anime Style'. And of course this is where I say that truly, to us, those who watch all dubs are missing out on one of those 'core' things that make Anime both unique and even more entertaining to us. Anime is not just the stories nor the cool fighting nor the unique properties of the characters. All of these things are amazing.....no doubt. But there's more.....to us the original voices and that 'style' if I can call it that is another piece to the Anime puzzle.

And as you can see, if we remove one piece of the puzzle such as these voices and try to put in a different one (Changing the voices), the puzzle will look different. Then if we alter the other pieces (story, characters and animation), the puzzle will change even further and become something else.

[Sithdarth]

You got some good points there, and subs probably work well for you. I have a very mild case of dyslexia which I have had so much success in controling I didn't even know I had it. That is until I started reading things I wrote carefully and when I noticed while reading for fun I often misread entire words. This led to the nasty habit of reading everything two, three and sometimes five or more times to make sure. I still managed to out read most people I know, even with the constant rereading, but I still misread things. So for me reading subs is a big problem even if I can get through it in about a second. I'll then spend about 3 or 4 more seconds making sure I read it right.

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Well....let me tell you this. I had a Seizure last October and have been since diagnosed with mild ADHD and I have also found myself reading words incorrectly. But I am still able to view subtitles just fine.

I don't want to just say you're wrong, but at the same time I want to take your example and show people that a person such as myself who has a few things that are VERY easy to become deterrents for liking subtitles, I not onlywatch Subtitled works, but excel at them.

I actually find myself reading subtitles too fast at times and miss everything it said because the character doesn't talk as fast as I could read it and then forget it. Part of that ADHD problem. But still, missing a few words (which hardly happens because I have pretty much mastered Subtitles) is still better than all those problems dubs create. I'd rather miss a few things a character said in a show than have the entire plot be changed and I both don't know what it was originally nor what the character said anyway. And if it came to it, I could just see the Anime again later, as I do for all my favorite Anime that I think had both good stories and characters anyway (and I usually find something else in the show I missed).

So, not to totally say hey, that's no excuse. But even with your dyslexia, I believe subtitles would still be better for all those reasons I named above. And it shows thatthose without it need to look at us who have things that could inpeed our reading ability and attention to specifics in sentance structure (both our problems) and realize we have an even harder time doing it, but its still better than a changed script and flat characters.

[Sithdarth]

I agree with you about the horrible hack jobs americans do on dubs. I guess it boils down to me being a lazy bastard at heart. I just don't want to spend the little extra energy to read subs. Of course I've watched subed movies and loved them as much if not more than dubed ones.

Another thought, why don't Americans get off the asses and import some Japanese animators and writers and get there own stuff of the ground. They would probably find a very nice market niche.

Didn't want to bring it up but my doctor says I show signs of ADHD and autism as well. It really sucks because it's not bad enough to warrent treatment but bad enough to annoy the hell out of me.

[Funka Genocide]

let me in this yo! About my statement that Sailor Moon was garbage, I apologize for that, I meant the american translation, I sometimes forget that not everybody is thinking the same way I am. I love the original Japanese version, as is true with most horribly translated anime. I was just tying to make the point that as hacked and defiled as some dubs get, they still expose people to something great. You make very valid points however, I don't even watch anime on TV anymore, I just buy the dvds. I actually find it to be physically painful to listen to the craptastic english voice actors sometimes. I agree that they should start presenting anime in as unadulterated a form as possible, but the fact still remains they are looking for ratings, ratings they won't receive with subtitles. Its sad but true. As far as reading subtitles goes, I'm on the brink of not having to anymore, I live in Japan so I get plenty of chances to hear the language at work, I even speak it sometimes, a few phrases here and there, and I watch so much anime that I understand very basic statements instinctually. I only read the subtitles when something complicated is being said. Another year or so and I'll be able to speak functional Japanese hopefully. So my solution to the problem of subs vs. dubs is this, learn to speak Japanese! just kidding, it would take a hard core otaku to move to japan for the sole purpose of immersing themselves in the Japanese language so that they could watch anime. heh heh, yeah, I guess that makes me a pretty hard core otaku, :D

[Kenryoku_Maxis]

Yeah, only a few of us are like that Zoamelgustar. -_-

[Mashirosen]

How many times do we have to say it? Dubs vs. subs discussions are not allowed on these forums. The only reason some of you aren't getting banned right now is because I'm pleased that you managed to keep it relatively civil for once -- but if I see this one more time, from a certain poster in particular, you are out, for the last time.

Closing. Don't PM me about this or I may change my mind about the bannings.