The Displaced Time-Clone of Iceman is Gay?

[Tev]

Saw this today (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/21/iceman-bobbie-drake-gay-_n_7110308.html), still not 100% sure how poorly the article is written compared to the comic pages that they show.

Original "X-Men" member Iceman is set to make a big revelation this week: he's gay.

The iconic character makes the surprise declaration in the All-New X-Men #40, which is available in stores and online April 22. Pages from the new book show an intimate conversation between a young Iceman, or Bobby Drake, and pal Jean Grey.

After Iceman comments on how hot he finds his female teacher, the telepathic Jean sees right through her friend's thinly-veiled declaration and tells him outright that she knows he's gay.

As a number of publications have already pointed out, the Iceman depicted in this new installment is the teenage version of the character displaced in time. The older, present-day Iceman that audiences are familiar with from the series, identifies as straight.

In an email statement, All-New X-Men writer Brian Michael Bendis told The Huffington Post that Iceman's storyline will continue to evolve in future books, and that the decision to make the character a gay man was in keeping with contemporary social dialogue around lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) issues.

"There are thousands, if not millions, of stories of people who, for many different reasons, felt the need to hide their sexuality," he said. "The X-Men, with the conceit of time travel, give us a fascinating platform in which to examine such personal journeys. This is just the first little chapter of a much larger story that will be told.”

In 2012, Marvel Comics made waves when it was announced that its first openly gay hero, super speedster Northstar, would tie the knot with his longtime civilian boyfriend, Kyle Jinadu, in an issue of “Astonishing X-Men.”

Still, Iceman's declaration breaks fresh ground in that the character was one of the original "X-Men" created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in 1963.

Check out pages from All-New X-Men which depict Iceman's coming out below:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/Loneglade/01_zpsy0bkizzl.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/Loneglade/02_zpsrjajbhfe.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/Loneglade/03_zpsp3fehyis.jpg

From looking at the pages, it seems less like a "coming out" and more like Jean being a total ass to young, time-displaced Bobby. I guess they set it up so later in the comic he turns around and finally admits it himself? either way, as a vehicle to talk about LGBTQ issues, this doesn't seem like the right way to do it. Making the outsider time-clone out to be the gay character, and sort of pulling him out of the closet like that as well, seems uncomfortably hamfisted to me. This probably could have been handled better with a new character, and not a "fake-new" character that can be championed as "the original Iceman!....but not really if you are interested in learning about the character, or get into a debate with anyone who has read the comics."

[Aerozord]

At first I was like, well x-men were always the other, representing ostracized groups. Thats when I realized thats why this, narrative, is pretty weak. He's a mutant, he already "came out" about being a mutant which is a vastly more marginalized group in the Marvel universe. Its just redundant and wont have much weight to it because him being a gay mutant wont be that much different than being a straight mutant. People aren't going to be going "I'm ok with the whole inhuman powers that present an actual tangible threat to my safety and way of life, but being a homosexual is where I draw the line."

I just have issue seeing this having much impact or really addressing issues X-men wasn't already handling

[POS Industries]

From looking at the pages, it seems less like a "coming out" and more like Jean being a total ass to young, time-displaced Bobby. I guess they set it up so later in the comic he turns around and finally admits it himself? either way, as a vehicle to talk about LGBTQ issues, this doesn't seem like the right way to do it. Making the outsider time-clone out to be the gay character, and sort of pulling him out of the closet like that as well, seems uncomfortably hamfisted to me. This probably could have been handled better with a new character, and not a "fake-new" character that can be championed as "the original Iceman!....but not really if you are interested in learning about the character, or get into a debate with anyone who has read the comics."
Pretty much, yeah. I buy Bobby being gay, but the way this is handled, with Jean violating his privacy and personal boundaries to drag him out of the closet against his will instead of allowing him the freedom to come to terms with his own sexuality however that might be is pretty gross. There's also some vague bi-erasure stuff in how the rest of the issue is handled that's off-putting.

It's also weird that, later in the comic, it suggests that present Bobby couldn't deal with being both a mutant and gay so he stayed in the closet doesn't really sound like him at all. Yes, a lot of his behavior in the past has been a shield against certain personal issues of his boiling beneath the surface, but I just can't see him being someone who would be so open about being a mutant but decide he can't deal with being gay, which is something that's WAY easier to live with in the Marvel universe than being a mutant. Add to that the fact that there are openly gay mutants out there doing just fine (or at least as fine as one can be as a mutant) and it just seems like silly reasoning.

Oh, also? One of those openly gay mutants, Karma, appeared at the end of the issue. Apparently as a villain now? So hey wow fuck that.

There is the strong possibility, however, that the teen O5 aren't going back to their own time, seeing as young Warren has been cosmically transformed by an ancient space macguffin in the most recent crossover arc and young Jean now has the ability to transform into LITERAL ESPER TERRA (http://s15.postimg.org/h0le1kjej/005.jpg), which means that this is no longer the past version of present Bobby Drake anyway.

The only sticking point there is that present Scott began to vanish when his younger counterpart was momentarily mortally wounded during Battle of the Atom, but there's countless ways to handwave that away.

In other news, Kitty Pryde just agreed to marry to Peter "Star Lord" Quill and the fact that she and Illyana will probably never run off together like they damn well should means that Marvel outed the wrong X-Man this week.

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

I honestly don't give two shits that Bobby Drake is gay. Will him being gay suddenly change his character? I highly doubt that.

What pisses me off is how it handled.

[Solid Snake]

I love Jean Grey's impeccable logic of "You're attracted to a man, you must be ~*gay*~!!!!"

Or hell, even "You've had an attractive thought about a man," in which case like, if Jean Grey read my mind at the wrong time (after a Patriots Super Bowl win, for example), she'd conclude I'm gay too?

I'm pretty sure even asexuals have had an errant sexual thought or two (at least one I know personally have conceded she has), the thought wouldn't seem to dictate any kind of actual substantive preference.

[MSperoni]

It should be noted, I think, that this Young Jean may not necessarily be a good person (is anyone aside from Superman a "good" character anymore? The line between Face and Heel in superhero books seems to be getting fuzzier and fuzzier).

I got the impression that her being mentored by Emma is putting a bit of an edge on her and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that she told Bobby he was gay just to fuck with him. Her invading his privacy seems...in character.

Went to the comic store and got ANX 40 today but haven't read it (also bought some Wonder Woman stuff so I've been focusing on that).

Also the Peter Quill + Kitty thing is stupid.

And in an older issue of Uncanny, (I can't remember what number), there was a scene where Bobby was accused of being a homophobe because of his attitudes about Northstar (who had a crush on him at the time).

Two other gay mutants are Rictor and Shatterstar...

Psylocke is bisexual though, so that's cool. Maybe she can end up with Illyana. Then I might actually care about Psylocke stuff!

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 PM ----------

A thought I had regarding Jean's telepathy: I dont' think she is trained enough to be able to shut out other people's thoughts yet.

One thing Professor X always had trouble with is that he could hear what everyone was thinking and couldn't control it, and he had to train himself to be able to. They also mention in an issue of Uncanny Xforce that this was a problem Psylocke had as well.

Jean is seventeen-ish? And her telepathy is a relatively new power for her. And since she's under the semi-tutelage of Emma Frost (or at least she was a few issues ago when she fought Blob), I dont' think she can control what thoughts she picks up nor do I think she's being encouraged to do so.

The unethical thing is her telling him he's gay after finding out by hearing his thoughts, but she's kind of a snotty kid and his friend so I guess that's in character?

[Doc ock rokc]

And? its an obvious cash grab. They are doing what everyone is doing and inserting token characters in.

OH WE MADE A TOKEN CHARACTER HOW EDGY!

But it goes against cannon and isn't nessisarry there are already a few gay Mutiants and heros in mar-

SHHH WERE BEING EDGY!

They didn't even do it well! They could have hinted at it for a few issues, drum up the drama with strange out of character behavior, some foreshadowing and red hearings and using it all to lead up to a big dramatic reveal...instead they just make Jean Gray blab it.

They were practically handed a plot AND THEY FUMBLED OUT OF THE GATE!

[POS Industries]

Man, people talking about "token" characters rubs me the wrong way something fierce.

[MSperoni]

It doesn't actually go against "canon" though.

For one thing, this Bobby is a different Bobby Drake from the one in the 616 Universe. Whatever they established in the past of 616-Drake doesn't apply to this guy.

Also Rictor, another gay mutant, was a super duper womanizer and hit on all the ladies in New Mutants/X-force. When he came out of the X-closet, they just played up the "in denial" angle.

So this reveal works for X-men as well as anything would.

Sure, they could have made the reveal a bit more dramatic (after all, the issue where Northstar reveals he's gay was an entire issue of buildup and real world drama involving AIDs and the homophobia surrounding it). But this is Bendis and it's sorta his writery style to have a character just flat out be "You're totes gay" (and then have 8 panels of copy/pasted art around it).

Plus in this day and age, a character being gay isn't really all that edgy. There is no need for a massive "coming out" issue anymore. It's not as big of a deal as it was when Northstar came out in the early 1990s.

Maybe that's why Bendis had Jean put it to Bobby so bluntly.

Because who really cares?

It's cool that Bobby is gay, but like...when it comes to the sexuality of X-men this isn't really all that outlandish. Fantomex was sleeping with a female clone of himself, after all...

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

Man, people talking about "token" characters rubs me the wrong way something fierce.

If there's chafing might I suggest some sort of water based lube?

[Shyria Dracnoir]

is anyone aside from Superman a "good" character anymore?

You mean the guy who always goes nuts and takes over the world so Batman can kick his ass?

[Daimo Mac, The Blue Light of Hope]

You mean the guy who always goes nuts and takes over the world so Batman can kick his ass?

Superman is a god mode gary stu who should have been put out to pasture long ago

[POS Industries]

If there's chafing might I suggest some sort of water based lube?
I think I'd mostly prefer if people quit doing it.

[Doc ock rokc]

Man, people talking about "token" characters rubs me the wrong way something fierce.

I can see why you can get angry about it but look at this

In an email statement, All-New X-Men writer Brian Michael Bendis told The Huffington Post that Iceman's storyline will continue to evolve in future books, and that the decision to make the character a gay man was in keeping with contemporary social dialogue around lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) issues.

This is by the very definition (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TokenMinority) of a token character.

Its literally a publisher making a writer insert a gay character in for brownie points.

I understand trying to reach that audience but you have a literal slew of characters who can do this. And if you still want to stomp on canon like its one fire there are subtler ways to do this. There are better ways that push the writing and artistic limits that will make people want you to do this.

instead they do it "subtly"

RVAhW4ToLFI

Because who really cares?

I do, I want comics to grow and get better. I want writing to improve and mature as to tackle these issues with dignity, but this is just sloppy. Its like a fire in a Fireworks factory subtle. Its like killing someone in the middle of a lake with a freight train sloppy. Its just pandering to the "Diversity" crowd that has been breathing down their necks since the Spider-woman cover.

I mean comics FINALLY gets out of the shadow of the Comics Code Authority. We were supposed to have a full range of comics for anything on anything... and now it seems writers and artiest can't do anything at all without an even worse crowd leaping on them.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

Ohhh Marvel, it's become more entertaining reading about the shit that goes down because of the comics than the actual comics themselves.

Tabloids level absurdity, I tells ya!

[MSperoni]

This doesn't "stomp on canon" because non-616 Bobby isn't canon...sorta. It's 616 Bobby but not 616 Bobby at the same time.

It's X-men. Stop worrying about it. I tend to read these while drunk.

What I meant by "who really cares" is who cares if a character is gay or not? It's not really an issue anymore. It doesn't really need "Subtlety". They could've just established he was gay from the getgo and no one would've given a shit aside from homophobes whose opinions don't matter anyway.

It's hard to talk about this "pandering to the diversity crowd" when there are already established gay/bi characters...Iceman isn't even the most high-profile one anyway, I think Psylocke is probably more popular than he is, but I guess that's open to debate.

We also do have a full range of comics on anything about anything. There's more out there than The Big Two, ya know.

And I highly doubt the Comics Code would've allowed a gay character or 90% of the things that go on in comics these days.

Seriously I dunno why people are bothered by what amounts to Just Another Twist in the Marvelverse. He's gay. Deal with it.

Some folks are just too sensitive I guess :)

(X-Force is the best X-comic anyway.)

---------- Post added at 11:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------

Like boo-fuckin'-hoo your funnybook isn't exactly like you want it. Go buy a different one.

[POS Industries]

Its just pandering to the "Diversity" crowd
http://i.imgur.com/pqpfUwR.gif

[Aerozord]

It just seems pointless to me. The general rule of fiddling with the status quo is "can you tell more/better stories with this change?" The answer is, no. Its not less so thats a plus, but he's already a mutant in a world where people are trying to organize internment camps for mutants. So you cant play up the issues of being demonized by society that doesn't understand you because he already has that. I guess if they have some homosexual relationship in mind but thats just trading one option for another.

I do hope its treated as, just a thing. Because I see no reason for anyone in universe to really care.

[MSperoni]

Ehh I had something I wanted to add but I wasn't sure how to put it and it sorta was off-topic and I got bored so nevermind.

Summation:

1. I'm not keen on the first issue of the comic Silk or Sensational Wonder Woman 7 for the same reasons.

2. Stories that give people something to talk about are good.

[Doc ock rokc]

Like boo-fuckin'-hoo your funnybook isn't exactly like you want it. Go buy a different one.

Why the hell should I move? I read the comics, I enjoy the stories, I have been here longer. Why the hell do I need to give it up?

The good capt'n sums up my idea on that (http://imgur.com/wUQUjeO)

Why do I have to suffer through the shitshow pandering writing? I mean as you pointed out there is a dozen different characters that have established histories. Good writing to back them up. A chemistry that is already there that hasn't been tapped to its greatest ability.

So why does this need to happen?

The only reason i can think of is that they are shooting for Iceman being gay is because of brand recognition. Iceman has been in the movies so it will be a splash to make him gay. and make him gay before the founding of the original xmen so that he was secretly gay all along. Its almost as bad as "Donald Blake was always thor all along" Or that entire Sentry thing that went nowhere fast. However at least both of those had a bit of buildup to them.

This is literally a copy paste page with writing that is level with fanfiction. It has all the grace of a brick. It just comes out of left field like the big lipped alligator in all dogs go to heaven. They were going for the edge but they used a fucking plushy instead. If they wanted drama they could have drummed it up and pulled it out. If they wanted diversity they could have reached for any of the other diversity characters slowly warm him up to him then have him do it himself and slowly build himself up to a better more welcoming character. Heck they could even do a confrontation scene like this after he is hit on by someone Gray sent to him and THAT would have worked

But no its just, "No bobbys you are the gays" and then bobby was a homo

[MSperoni]

Why the hell should I move? I read the comics, I enjoy the stories, I have been here longer. Why the hell do I need to give it up?

Money talks, Doc!

No one at Marvel or DC cares if you've "been here longer". These are entertainment products. They're companies and all they're interested in is that sweet green. If the comic you like gets dumb go buy a comic that is less dumb...or just put up with it till it gets less dumb again.

Or buy a comic that is MORE dumb.

But I'm not sure what comic exists that is more insane than X-men.

I mean, for me X-men is about as crazy as it gets. Random out-of-left-field stuff like this is one reason why I keep buying them (also all the X-ladies!). I cut my adamantium teeth in the Claremont-era. There's nothing X-men can do that I'm not prepared for*...

For instance, Young Drake here is a character with genetic ice powers and a time-displaced version of another character. He was brought here by a blue furry in order to teach a guy who shoots lasers out of his eyes a lesson about leadership.

Him being gay is like...That's it?

(yeah it probably could've been handled a bit smoother, but this is Bendis we're talking about here.)


Also I totally did the "Telepath Outs Gay Character" in The Dreadful (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2014/10/22/the-dreadful-285/) before Marvel did.

Fuckers stealin' my ideas...


*WHY IS JUBILEE A FUCKING VAMPIRE

[Doc ock rokc]

For instance, Young Drake here is a character with genetic ice powers and a time-displaced version of another character. He was brought here by a blue furry in order to teach a guy who shoots lasers out of his eyes a lesson about leadership or something.

Him being gay is like...That's it?

(yeah it probably could've been handled a bit smoother, but this is Bendis we're talking about here.)


Also I totally did the "Telepath Outs Gay Character" in The Dreadful (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2014/10/22/the-dreadful-285/) before Marvel did.

Fuckers stealin' my ideas...
Your guy always felt like he was coming off to hard and thus it wasn't a surprise...

Their's broke the Willing Suspension of disbelief (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief)

Look at the quintessential example of that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZLnDaqo1M) People hate this scene not because of a Pointy ear'd elf prince with improbable aiming skills killing 42 orcs and losing to a short tempered dwarf wielding an axe that is only JUST lighter then him because it lacks armor. They hate it because knowlidge of the nervous system is inconsistent with the level of technology and knowledge they have shown before. They still treat wounds with Herbs chewed up in the mouth for christ sake.

People will believe the impossible...not the improbable (Unless you pull a Douglas Adams and make the improbable probable). Thus the reason I am angry and I am asking for more buildup on it.

Because I loath this pandery out of the blue bullshit to score brownie points

[MSperoni]

Your guy always felt like he was coming off to hard and thus it wasn't a surprise...

"Matt's a better writer than the guy who writes X-men."

That's how I'm going to take this. You can't stop me.


Also my "boo fuckin' hoo" comment was aimed generally, by the way.

I'm not the biggest Bendis fan, for what it's worth...He's good at writing natural feeling dialog, but I don't much care for his "talky talk" issues. Mostly because they're full of pages of copy/pasted talking heads. The beat of the panels doesn't mesh with me...

Maybe I'm just not reading them properly.

[Bum Bill Bee]

Okay, I should like to say that I am not surprised. (http://kyrtuck.deviantart.com/favourites/57504578/Kickass?offset=576#/art/REMAKE-The-Flamingo-Comic-135637216?_sid=4a882a6a)

There are lots (http://olybear.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=216#/art/Super-Gay-Marvel-271884289?_sid=3a78d626) and lots of gay supers I can think of (http://olybear.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=216#/art/Super-Gay-DC-271884474?_sid=f60ff97)

I guess what surprises me the most about this is their....turning...an A-lister like Iceman.

But what surprises me a lot more is them doing an entire team of females. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ComicBook/AForce) I wonder how long it will be before we see a team of all LGBTQAs?

[MSperoni]

All Female Avengers is probably the only way I'd ever remotely give a crap about Avengers so I'm all for that.

Like I hadn't even looked at a Thor comic in 20 years until they introduced Lady Thor. She's a lot better...and selling better too from what I gather.

And Iceman isn't an A-lister! Cyclops and Jean are, but Bobby's B-tier at best, IMO.

Wolverine is S-tier, obviously.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I'm just really curious if the writer came out and said "You know what these people who are mad are right, we're going to undo this" and the comic kept on going like it had never happened....

Would that be pandering?
I mean, I hear the term pandering thrown around a lot, and it always seems to be, rather explicitly: "The author did something I don't like for people I don't agree with."

[Doc ock rokc]

"Matt's a better writer than the guy who writes X-men."

That's how I'm going to take this. You can't stop me.That is exactly what I said. (also you have the Comedy advantage where the improbable can come about for a quick joke and linger as a running gag. The rule of funny allows you to go into straight up absurdity or even abstraction. Which is why there is such a thing as A Duck Amuck.


Also my "boo fuckin' hoo" comment was aimed generally, by the way. I know


I'm not the biggest Bendis fan, for what it's worth...He's good at writing natural feeling dialog, but I don't much care for his "talky talk" issues. Mostly because they're full of pages of copy/pasted talking heads. The beat of the panels doesn't mesh with me...

Maybe I'm just not reading them properly.Pfft. Dialog is always First draft. Its extremely easy as long as you got a good talking point. It's just that he doesn't really have a good sense of what is a good talking point or how to use it to its full advantage.

[Bum Bill Bee]

And Iceman isn't an A-lister! Cyclops and Jean are, but Bobby's B-tier at best, IMO.

Wolverine is S-tier, obviously.

Well Iceman is A-list compared to the likes of say Karolina Dean, Sarah Rainmaker, Striker, Midnight and Apollo, etc.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I think most comics are kinda dumb -I've always preferred to follow their movie/cartoon adaptions- and I've never been that interested in X-Men, but I think it's pretty indicative of Marvel and DC's mindsets that whenever they decide to make a character come out as gay it's always a character no one really gives a shit about.

"Green Lantern is gay! But like, not Hal Jordan or John Stewart. Its Alan Scott, one of the versions of the Green Lantern no one has ever heard of."

"Ice Man is gay! But not the normal Iceman its a version of him from an alternate timeline whose just sorta lost or something so like, if it becomes convenient, we can probably just send him back or whatever."

I guess in some ways I think its kinda cowardly of them to not even CONSIDER just writing new characters completely? Like, honestly, most superhero comic books are just a tangled web of incomprehensible nonsense to people who haven't been reading them for like 20 years anyways. Is it really out of left field to promote a new character completely who is gay/bi/whatever?

[Bum Bill Bee]

They DO create new characters who are on the LGBTQA spectrum, its just that those new characters fight a very uphill battle for recognition against the time tested cash cow A-listers, most of whom were created in the 40s or 60s.

Personally, I just wish those guys would get retired so they can make room for the new faces, AND they won't keep having to change them to make them relevant. I'd really see that as a win-win situation.

[Overcast]

People love the characters they know, and comic making isn't a very reliable business at the end of the day. DC and Marvel are powerful because they have a fistful of people that a select demographic +/- various fans will buy just because it has the name on it. For this reason the way they tend to introduce any new ideas is by dropping them in a big name and edging them toward the spotlight before drawing enough attention for their own comic book. If it looks positive anyway. As for if they could put together their own gay/bi/pan/masconlynotops/ect character, prolly but I'd bet you that character would get just as much cheap heat as (no pun intended) Iceman right now.

[Amake]

Not to be that guy but has anyone actually read the whole comic? Bendis is a very good writer and often likes leveraging his not insignificant influence in the industry to push it forward. I wouldn't discount the idea it's both a good read if you're into X-men and a not useless bit of representation if you're gay; not without reading it first.

[Premmy]

Man I was going to tell Doc that he has the most boring opinions, but then I remembered it was Mac was the one who made the Superman post, ao Mac and doc yall are super boring

[MSperoni]

Not to be that guy but has anyone actually read the whole comic?

I've read it three times. Even though I'm not a huge Bendis fan I like getting the most outta my money!


Honestly I thought the Gay Reveal was more natural feeling than Young Angel's declaration of love to Girlverine, but that's just me XD


EDIT: however, up until ANX40 the only issue of ANX I read was 37 because apart from Jean I don't much care about the old crew. So I guess I've never really read the comic all that closely, so for all I know Bobby being gay was something that has long been hinted at.

POS would probably be able to tell ya more.

[Amake]

I found someone anyway (http://teaberryblue.tumblr.com/post/117127082684/all-new-x-men-40-and-the-reality-of-being-a-queer). A pretty interesting read, especially for those who think these publicity stunts only serve to score brownie points and ruin comic books.

Heck, I'm almost tempted to get my hands on it now.

[POS Industries]

So I guess I've never really read the comic all that closely, so for all I know Bobby being gay was something that has long been hinted at.

POS would probably be able to tell ya more.
Unless those hints were dropped throughout the Black Vortex crossover with Guardians of the Galaxy (which I only read in spots because I didn't feel like following a crossover with a book I don't read), it wasn't hinted at in the slightest.

I found someone anyway (http://teaberryblue.tumblr.com/post/117127082684/all-new-x-men-40-and-the-reality-of-being-a-queer).
My issue isn't that Jean acted inappropriately as much as Jean acting inappropriately is treated as a good thing. The Jughead parallel doesn't really add up because, from what I understand, the Archie story paints Jughead in a negative light for his actions, which ANXM does not do with Jean. A character behaving in a problematic way so long as the story acknowledges it as such is fine. But if the author effectively endorses that behavior by framing it in a positive light, that's not cool, which is more or less what I feel happened here.

[Bum Bill Bee]

But if the author effectively endorses that behavior by framing it in a positive light, that's not cool, which is more or less what I feel happened here.

So its another case of "Moral Dissonance" or "Designated Hero" huh?

[rpgdemon]

But what surprises me a lot more is them doing an entire team of females. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ComicBook/AForce)

The plural of woman that you are looking for is called women.

---------- Post added at 03:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 AM ----------

This is by the very definition of a token character.

Its literally a publisher making a writer insert a gay character in for brownie points.

I understand trying to reach that audience but you have a literal slew of characters who can do this. And if you still want to stomp on canon like its one fire there are subtler ways to do this. There are better ways that push the writing and artistic limits that will make people want you to do this.

OOOOOOOOOR they decide that the 1940s values and writing established in comics really wasn't worth keeping to, and that we want a more modern take on heros and stuff.

Like, heroes change WAY more drastically for the sake of telling more modern stories/representing the modern world better, than just changing who someone wants to have sex with. It's not tokenism, it's people in 2015 deciding not to shackle themselves to the choices made by people in the 40s.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I will rectify my statement saying that I don't think these changes RUIN comics (I kinda made it clear that I have a low opinion of them anyways I guess). Like, I suppose they are better than nothing (and apparently Miles Morales lasted a LOT longer in the universe than I thought), I just think its not really the best solution to the lack of diversity seen in comic books.

[tacticslion]

I'm just really curious if the writer came out and said "You know what these people who are mad are right, we're going to undo this" and the comic kept on going like it had never happened....

Would that be pandering?
I mean, I hear the term pandering thrown around a lot, and it always seems to be, rather explicitly: "The author did something I don't like for people I don't agree with."

Yes, actually, it would be pandering.

I'd been out of comics for a bit, when I was reintroduced to (one of the) Wonder Woman (reboots): the one where she was (to quote the homosexual comic store guy I was working with), "a man-hating lesbian."

This immediately rubbed me the wrong way. First, it's Wonder Woman as a terrible person, and then as a Lesbian, which just felt weird, given everything I'd ever known about her. It was... not a good impression.

We continued talking, and comic-book store employee (possibly noting my negative reaction), explained that it was just a thing they did for a short time, then went on to talk about how she and Superman got together and had sex or something, I don't know. Same continuity. And I hated it.

Why? First, the Superman/Wonderwoman thing was, well, blech, it's like a fan-wanky style comic that every kid makes in their head before they ever actually know canon, and it's cheesy. But more importantly, she'd just been described as a "man-hating" lesbian. Suddenly Super Stud shows up and they get it on because... why? That... that's stupid, and shows a disregard for established characterization.

It could have been presented as her being bisexual, or any other of interesting takes on the character that didn't make her angry, hateful, or "Oh, a man, now I want those too!" which, from my conversation with the store guy is kind of how it came off.

And, I'm going to be clear: I don't know what's in those stories. Maybe the store guy just really sold it the wrong way. That's fine. That's not the point.

The point is that it was weird pandering at first, and weird pandering to reverse it. Both were really annoying.

What do I want out of comics characters? Well... consistent characterization, and good people. The latter seems to be lacking most of the time I peek back into comics (it's possible that it was always lacking, and my very long sabbatical is just giving me rose-colored glasses)^.

A lot of people talk about how Cyclops is pretty terrible now - and they have the weight of comics to do it - but I'd always thought he was a pretty great guy. A devoted, married man, who had a strong sense of right and wrong, was a good leader, and as good a father as he could be under the very, very, weird circumstances he continually found himself in.

The everything was obviously changed, and has been for some time, and I didn't like it - still don't. It was done for drama or whatever... blech. Boring.

And I think that's what my problem is with "pandering" and "oh noes!" in general. You have a character. They have a history. You change it to make them Different to... do what? Gain points with a particular crowd of people? Meh.

At least Cyclops technically has the excuse that he literally has a bit of Apocalypse inside his soul potentially influencing him towards jerkitude and bad leadership (En Saba Nur has never been a very good leader, despite his power)*.

But then again, I'm, like, 10-12 years out of comics, so, meh.

* His first "dip" to my mind, was when Prof. X proved to be part of Onslaught. I thought he was a bit "iffy" there, but okay, whatever. Then when he died from fusing with Apocalypse attempting to ascend via the Twelve or whatever, and got better later (as such folk are wont to do), he just... kind of dropped off the "good leader and husband" list. Jean started making out with Logan in freaky brain-mutant's imaginary realm (which didn't transform them, for some reason, unlike the other people), and he started cheating with Emma (or at least heavily hinting to Jean that he was doing so... for... some... reason?) and blarg, I hate everything and don't have the money, so dropped.

EDIT: Just to be clear: pandering is bad and annoying and tends toward making bad stories. If character consistency is maintained, however, even from "pandering" origins, and good stories are told... that's fine, and not a bad thing. But the act of pandering itself usually denotes weird poorly-written dissonant work for the sake of attracting a crowd, very similar to the "t3h DRAMAS!" style of writing where Spiderman's marriage is dissolved and "they can never get back together ever!" until they do a short time later. Both are pretty terrible writing and are something that comics do a lot. It's frustrating, even when you otherwise like the comics in question.

EDIT: ^ Aaalllso, I just wanted to say, even with an all-to-often seeming loss of "good" people in comics, that is not to say that all comics decisions "recently" (for a very broad definition) are bad, but rather the characterization of people that I used to like seems to be taking a dive for "reasons" which mostly amount to poor storytelling. I like the return (however brief) of Nate Grey, Batwoman's orientation was cool (but I have less canon relationships there), Miles Morales was neat (even if I like Peter by virtue of him being Peter), and Dick Greyson inheriting Batman - however briefly - was awesome. Good stuff there. I also highly enjoy the Marvel films, especially both Captain America ones. Just sayin'. :)