"Hashtag Nothing Because Fuck Hastags" or "Captain America Because Stark Is A Dick"

[Seil]

So new Avengers trailer.

dKrVegVI0Us

What do you call a guy who builds his own prisons (http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Prison_42), conducts genetic experiments (http://imgur.com/gallery/EtDwU) on prisoners and manipulates the stock market/defense contracts (http://40.media.tumblr.com/be1230d4717cc32de263d7f2f8feae0d/tumblr_inline_nsoot0hiyR1r9b28i_500.png) in order to further fund his political aims (http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd74/sunbeamfireking/avengers-prime-1.jpg~original)? If you said Hitler, well, you're half right because Tony Stark (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11121/111218032/4762659-asm_544_dcp_0022.jpg).

During the Super-Hero Civil War, S.H.I.E.L.D. used nanites reverse-engineered by Reed Richards from captured Latverian nanotechnology (originally created by the Tinkerer in order to allow for easier human cyberisation) to control villains, turning the tide against Captain America and his growing army of anti-registration heroes. However, once the network of nanite-controlled villains reached critical mass, the nanites became sentient and started to take over their hosts, using them to spread more nanoprobes into others then linking them into the group consciousness, which began referring to itself as 'The Fold'.

Oh, wait, movie history. Cinematic universe and all that. Let's trust the party animal who didn't realize for how long that his business partner was corrupt? Sure, side with the guy who created a psychopathic genocidal AI. Side with the alcoholic with poor impulse control who tells a terrorist his home address.

Let's trust the government who until recently was run by one of the largest criminal terrorist organizations ever (Hail Hydra!) with all our personal information. I'm sure that will work out great for me and my loved ones (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_small/0/40/98312-53196-aunt-may.jpg).

[mauve]

Counter argument: Tony Stark is really hot though.

[Overcast]

Other counter argument Bucky Barnes is a fucking psycho.

[Seil]

Mauve: Justin Trudeau is pretty amazing.

Overcast: Bucky Barnes is a psycho. It's a good thing he's not leading anything, and he's fighting for the guy who doesn't mind control a cabal of super villains that eventually go crazy and start a war with Atlantis in the middle of the civil war like some handsome billionaire philanthropist does.

[Krylo]

Civil War has always been a pretty dumb plot line. It doesn't even make sense for their characters that Cap is leading the resistance and Stark is toeing the government line. Stark doesn't trust and dislikes government oversight. It's, supposed to be, one of the more core points of his character (it's why the military doesn't get to have iron man technology, after all). Yet he's signing right up with the registration act.

Meanwhile, Cap is generally portrayed as good but also somewhat naive, trusting, and he has 1930s ideas about patriotism and the government--i.e. very black and white, the US government are the good guys, etc.

But, rather than stick to those characterizations and tropes Marvel instead wanted to double down on Tony being the 'flawed' hero and Cap being 'good' all the time. Which means Tony had to be the leader of the registration act sect because they wanted to tell a story where the anti-registration group are 'right' which means if Cap sided with the government as he is apt to do in most cases he'd be 'wrong', which would require him either being morally ambiguous due to his political beliefs not always being 'right' or they'd have to cut short their war with him having some kind of epiphany.

No, Tony has to be 'wrong' and 'troubled'. It's the only way.

And that's without even getting into how the whole thing is a pretty clumsy and preachy thing that really has no reason to exist other than sensationalism.

It'll probably still be a pretty watchable and competently made movie, though.

[Overcast]

Yeah the basis in this movie isn't nearly as multifaceted and thus awful as it is in comic. On top of Stark never having done any of the things you are planting on him other than Ultron which can be partially blamed on brain manipulation things are mostly having to do with registering the currently very small hero population, as there are no X-Men and since the Inhumans haven't been introduced only Thor is the non rare case of genius or incident to create a super person and he is considered an Alien, and partially to do with Cap's hopeful naivete for his friend the psycho Bucky who he doesn't control as much as just barely direct. For example I don't know if Cap would approve entirely of blasting Stark's head off.

I mean be colored by the hilarious fuck ups of comic Stark if you want, but I'm feeling fine supporting him until he does something to Bruce Banner. Cause that would be violently against the stance he's held for every movie so far.

[Token]

Man to be fair, Cap has never been the "gov't knows best" guy in the comics or the movies. That was the entire plot of the last movie, and he's been actively fought against the gov't multiple times in the comics for decades. Just look at his Nomad phase and his awful, awful costume.

but yeah moral of the story is that stark is awful and there will never be a better spider-man costume than ASM2

[Bum Bill Bee]

Come to think of it, they've barely ever covered Tony's alcoholism as being a problem, even though Ironman 3 promised to do so :/

[Overcast]

Iron Man 3 promised a lot of things it didn't deliver on, I try to forget it exists.

[mauve]

Disclaimer: I don't read comics so I can't talk about the comicverse version of this.


Honestly, I'm not sure if I'll bother seeing Civil War. I didn't end up seeing Age of Ultron (and apparently I didn't miss much there) or Winter Soldier (though I'm told I shouldn't have skipped that one since it was apparently pretty good), and Civil War might join the ranks of "meh" Marvel movies.

To me, Civil War looks like an excuse to remake Avengers 1 branded as a Captain America movie but with less fun and more AAAANGST, but with more marketing opportunities. We already had a movie where Tony and Cap don't get along. We've already had Cap question his allegiances. Now Civil War is basically those two story lines on steroids. "Let's pit ALL the characters against each other! TWO Avenger teams! Cram in the heroes who showed up in the last movies and build up a social media campaign for #TeamCap and #TeamStark! T-shirts!!"

Personally I love Marvel's more lighthearted and adventurous stuff. Ant-Man was fun. Original Avengers was fun. Original Iron Man was fun. When Marvel takes risks like that, making fun movies with then-lesser known characters, it usually pays off. But the Avengers series seems to be edging closer and closer to DC's tired "angst and edginess and nihilism" theme they can't seem to break away from. I can almost guarantee Batman vs Superman will be flat and boring and focus on how terrible it is to be a hero. Don't follow that path, Marvel. Rise above. (But not in a Spiderman: Turn Off the Dark way)

[Seil]

Disney put a nix on the whole alcoholism thing. (http://www.comicsbeat.com/disney-rejects-tony-stark-alcoholism-storyline-from-iron-man-3/)

Mauve:

JvHyk2ESFCI

[Solid Snake]

Meanwhile, Cap is generally portrayed as good but also somewhat naive, trusting, and he has 1930s ideas about patriotism and the government--i.e. very black and white, the US government are the good guys, etc.

This is actually incorrect; if anything, Cap has generally been portrayed as a New Deal-era progressive who is more than willing to tell the United States off when the laws are wrong and who values being morally right over following the letter of the law. He's not naive and he's never been a blind jingoistic patriot. This article provides a good summary as to why Cap is my favorite superhero. (http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2013/10/steven-attewell-steve-rogers-isnt-just-any-hero)

As for Tony Stark, he's more of a right-wing capitalist than Cap, and also, the movie seems to -- if anything -- be siding with Tony more than Steve. The trailers show Tony being all rational about the need of some regulatory control over the superheroes, and Steve's logic isn't nearly as well fleshed out in the trailers as it was in the comics.

[Seil]

All of my friends are arguing "movie continuity" this and "he's a misguided idealist but at least he's on the right side" that, re Stark.

[Overcast]

I mean do you want to be held responsible for Salmon Siel's crimes against humanity? Prolly not since his horrible acts don't actually influence you.

[Bard The 5th LW]

All of my friends are arguing "movie continuity" this and "he's a misguided idealist but at least he's on the right side" that, re Stark.

That's because the comics are batshit crazy and the movie's actually do follow a different series of events entirely. You can't judge Movie!Stark for Comic!Stark's actions.

[Seil]

Let's just look at the original post...

Oh, wait, movie history. Cinematic universe and all that. Let's trust the party animal who didn't realize for how long that his business partner was corrupt? Sure, side with the guy who created a psychopathic genocidal AI. Side with the alcoholic with poor impulse control who tells a terrorist his home address.

Let's trust the government who until recently was run by one of the largest criminal terrorist organizations ever (Hail Hydra!) with all our personal information. I'm sure that will work out great for me and my loved ones.

Sounds alright.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Yet the fact that you still bring up the comics and brushed off the 'movie continuity' argument in that other post implies that you don't think it stands up, which is silly. It entirely stands up.

Anyways, Tony and Steve are pretty clearly going along divergent character arcs. Tony starts the series feeling he knows best and using his resources/abilities however he sees fit, while Cap trusts his government and acts in accordance with society's expectations. Tony gets to see his judgement repeatedly fail him with shit such as Ultron, however, and Cap sees his government fail in the form of HYDRA taking SHIELD and seeing the ways society has changed for the better/worse since he was frozen and decides to take justice in his own hands.

[Seil]

Anyways, Tony and Steve are pretty clearly going along divergent character arcs. Tony starts the series feeling he knows best and using his resources/abilities however he sees fit, while Cap trusts his government and acts in accordance with society's expectations. Tony gets to see his judgement repeatedly fail him with shit such as Ultron, however, and Cap sees his government fail in the form of HYDRA taking SHIELD and seeing the ways society has changed for the better/worse since he was frozen and decides to take justice in his own hands.

Tony Stark was wrong and we ended up with Ultron.
Captain America was right and we ended up with a terrorist-free government.