Discrimination, Reverse Discrimination, and Reverse Reverse Discrimination

[Elmer J.]

I've been giving this some thought recently, and would like to hear your thoughts on it.

It seems to me that no matter how much we try to eliminate prejudice and have everyone be equal, something new crops up.

Like when Blacks got their rights, there was some backlash against white people.

I'm not saying it was universal, dear god no.

But there was still distrust there in some cases.

I thought this was significant and brought it up at conversation once.
I was greeted with a wave of anti-black sentiment
"Now they think they're better than us"
"They don't want equality, they want superiority"
"What if WHITE people had their own channel"

I was shocked to say the least.
But the more I thought about it, the more I realissed that every action to Bring equality is met with a reaction to get rid of it.
But if we took no action, we'd still have Jim Crow laws.

It's the same thing with sexism.

Women had no rights, that isn't good.

Once they get rights, though, men are instantly beaten down to be considered the less intelligent gender. Especially in the media.
I cite "Everybody loves Raymond and "King of Queens"

But at the same time, Men resent this role and resent women for imposing it on them.

Can anyone think of a way to promote equality without cheesing someone off?

[Krylo]

We could, you know, NOT give minorities special treatment just because they're minorities. We could get rid of the glass ceiling, and then present women as idiots on TV just as often as we present men. We could get rid of BTV and BET OR make WET (which is just a stupid name for a channel, but what the hell?).

There is such a thing as equality, but people like to take 'equality' too far and baby the group which had been denigrated before. Take the words nigger and cracker, for instance. When a white person is called a cracker no one cares. In fact, I could probably make a thread on how much crackers suck at most forums (not this one, but most), and so long as the people in charge thought I was black, they'd let it go. Now, try to even USE nigger in a topic without being ironic/sardonic/ludicrious. It wouldn't fly, and you'd get jumped all over.

Either cracker needs to be seen as just as bad as nigger, or black people can be called niggers. That in and of itself is discrimination.

And, as you quoted in your topic, the whole BET issue. There will never be a WET because people will assume racism, and, quite frankly, the idea IS racist. Just like BET is racist. Just like Lifetime (Television for women) is just as sexist as Spike TV (television for men).

However, people only PERCEIVE WET and Spike TV as sexist. The race which was targetted for so long is automatically given immunity from ever being called racist, and THAT is the problem.

Also, there's no such thing as reverse racism or reverse discrimination.

Discrimination is discrimination whether it is toward white people, straight people, gay people, black people, purple people, men, or women.

[Silly Kitty]

Its very tricky it is.

I do also find it funny that the word "cracker" isnt racist. Why is that? Who even came up with that?

Its a very touchy topic. There really will never be total "equality". I think we should all get over it. There are too many things people can be racist about.

Gay people being discriminated against. God said it wasn't right but he never said to kill them. You cant hate on people like that. Its wrong.

I think we have come along way and, i know that there are thoses certain people who think they are better than others. To them i say go to hell. We should respect everyone for who they are.

I don't think anyone will ever be happy.

[Funka Genocide]

.Discrimination is discrimination whether it is toward white people, straight people, gay people, black people, purple people, men, or women.

Thanks for stating that, the whole idea of "reverse discrimination" always boggled my mind. I think the problems we face today, of over compensation for those who were repressed, is like a transient spike in societal trends. (transient spike=rapid change, sorry, I'm an electronic technician, and I know there is no excuse :) ) We often times forget that this whole "equality" thing is actually quite new, as in there are still people alive who remember when it wasn't so.

These trends will eventually subside, they are all ready doing so now. All we are really left with are idiosyncratic phrases, and a few deeply seated racial biases.

although I must say that BET does upset me, and I watch it all the time. Its just the idea that a group of people are somehow "apart" from the rest of us simplybecause they have different ancestry. I myself am a minority, and that is a part of my personality, but not the defining factor. If BET were changed to "urban entertainment television" it would make a lot more sense. And if it would change its unnecesarily racially biased views, I wouldn't have much beef with it.

god said it wasn't right, but he never said to kill them

I can't stop laughing...

oh god, it hurts. I guess thats one way of putting it. (???)

[Gilgamesh in a Hat]

It sounds to you guys like equality is a double edged sword. but the fact is that no one wants equality at all. They always want to be better. Sure at first racial group A will want all the rights and freedoms of racial group B, but when they get that they want MORE, they get greedy, and eventually become more powerful then group B and then the cycle repeats itself. My dad has always told me that the world cultures in relation to power alway goes in a circle. so eventually China, Greece, Italy, Turkey, and Japan will eventually become world leaders...well Japan already is. The more I think about it the more uses this phrase has. Eventually Black people will gain power, White peoploe wont have it for a while, then they'll get it back only to lose it in a few years.

well it makes since to me.

I hate it when a new post arrives while im typing

I dont have a problem with BET, BET just symbolizes black people's rise to power in the entertainment world, remember, a not that long ago Black people couldn't get parts in T.V shows or Movies, BET started as a result of that. It just happens to still be around

Also I get a kick out of seeing white kids at school whearing FUBU clothes. It makes me laugh.

[Funka Genocide]

ok, cyclical trends in world wide society I can agree with, and the power structure of the world fluctuates constantly.

The world I want to see involve rises and falls of ideals, of philosophies and thought processes. Not subgroups of the human race. I want everyone to lose their racial identity while still maintaining their cultural identity, all the while attempting to integrate their social perspective with that of the world.

up and down is fine, just not based on something as trivial as the color of someones skin.

[adamark]

the reason whites don't need their own "channel" is because 99% of the channels we watch cater to our culture. we see whites on tv. we see white culture on tv. we hear white music and see white fashion, etc etc etc. Oprah is white culture. denzel washington is white entertainment. etc.

does this change your view at all, even slightly?

[Funka Genocide]

white fashion, black fashion, NO SUCH THING!

these trends and preferences are developed not because of the racial background of a populace, but because of their cultural history.

Now historically these two things would have been hardly distinct, but in modern society (American Society) race does not determine social group. There are urban "white" people and suburban "black people" I'm a mexican who can't speak spanish, yet has a fine (if I do say so myself) grasp of the english language. Race is not the determining factor, its culture, and the two are definitely seperate.

[Krylo]

the reason whites don't need their own "channel" is because 99% of the channels we watch cater to our culture. we see whites on tv. we see white culture on tv. we hear white music and see white fashion, etc etc etc. Oprah is white culture. denzel washington is white entertainment. etc.

does this change your view at all, even slightly?What Zoam said. Oprah isn't white culture. To say so is just silly. How can a BLACK person be part of WHITE culture? For that matter, what does skin color have to do with culture?

However, a black person, like Oprah or Denzel Washington, can be part of SUBURBAN culture instead of URBAN culture. There are more white people in the suburbs and more black, latin, asian, etc. people in the urban (ghetto) areas.

That does not, however, mean that urban culture is black culture or that suburban culture is white culture.

I do also find it funny that the word "cracker" isnt racist. Why is that? Who even came up with that?A whip makes a "crack" when it is used properly. White people used the whips against black people, thus they made the "crack"s. Ergo the term "cracker".

In other words, everytime a white person is called a cracker they're called a slave beating master.

[Gilgamesh in a Hat]

I have questions about what Funka said, What is the differece between Racial background and cultural history? Do you mean Racial background as in Color, and cultural history as in Africa and Europe?

Now, here is how I believe people get there feelings about the world/race/mind set. It all depends on how you grow up. Your family is rich, no matter WHAT color you will act rich. This brings me to a paradox. Poor black people act as they have been due to there living conditions and join gangs to protect themselves. Rich black people act like rich White people. Rich white kids act 'gangsta'. poor white kids act like rich white kids. I don't think the separation is due to Culture or Race. But money and living conditions.

[Funka Genocide]

I have questions about what Funka said, What is the differece between Racial background and cultural history? Do you mean Racial background as in Color, and cultural history as in Africa and Europe?

you asked for it!

Racial background is purely physical, derived from gene codes. Cultural background is purely psychological, derived from environment. Now the two concepts were at one point in human history (perhaps more than one point, more like a whole shit load of connected points) considered to be completely interrelated. You were a "Jew" or a "Scot" or "Spaniard" or part of a certain tribe or some such thing. Not only did your ethnicity determine your culture, but it also determined your genetic structure. The ancient world had very strict breeding laws.

People were far more base back then, they acted on (slightly) more instinctual principles than we do now. Distrust of outsiders is an instinct. The root of the complex idea "racism" lies in the simple instinct of "mistrust". At some point, every culture in history was "racist" and unapologetic about it.

The ability (or even the possibility) to seperate race from culture only became evident recently. (well, not recent like five minutes ago, but you know what I mean.) With the advent of modern "western" society and interracial mingling in all areas of life, it is impossible to classify someone as belonging to a particular racial subgroup and find any meaning in it. Genes are no longer joined at the hip with culture, and the world is better for that.

Those who still attempt to fix identities based on genetic structure are throwbacks to a simpler time, unable to let go of tradition.

[Gilgamesh in a Hat]

EN GUARD!

You, sir have stated two controdictory statments!

If cultural history is based on enviornment, could it not be claimed that because all rich people live in the same enviornment they will then act in a similar manner? This is incorrect due to many rich black people who still act in a nature unlike that of a rich white person. You also stated that my ethnicity chose my culture. Although I am arab with no knowlage of my dad's native tounge! Therefor you have made two statements that dont make since in the same place. Ill simply ask you this! Is culture based on Ethnicity or Enviornment. you have stated both.

Choose wisley sir.

[Funka Genocide]

cultural history is based on environment, based on not only what the environment is now, but what its history is as well. In order to exist as it does, it must have gone through phases to get here.

Now, as far as rich black people still acting "black" that is also a product of environment, Thanks to mass media and ease of information travel, cultural influences from many walks of life are felt everywhere. With the overt racism of "black lifestyle" inundating not only television and popular music, but the personal lives of people too.

Think of it this way, a young kid sees on television that every person who looks somewhat like him acts in a certain prescribed manner, he sees that those who act differently than that are shunned by others. He connects the dots. No one wants to be an outsider, and they will change or adopt behaviors in order to be accepted.

my point in all of this is that complex social behaviors and culture are not inherited, there is no "rap gene" or "likes golf gene" these sorts of things are products of environment, and every race on earth is on equal footing when it comes to potential.

as for your statement that I said ethnicity determines culture, reread my post, I was talking about ancient history. Your very existence actually helps to prove what I was saying. :)

[Gilgamesh in a Hat]

TOUCHE!

Although my argument still stands. If all children act the same to not be left out, does this not mean that ALL children are the same if culture is the deciding factor? You also made comments reffuring to music and television, but music and television are different depending on your background and on your parents! I dare you to find a single kid who is white, in texas, with texan parents. There is no way that kid is going to like rap. Therefor liking a type of music is based on what your parents like, and what their parents like, and so on and so forth. The only way an annomily such as a change in musical intrests would be though a rapid mix in cultures like living in New York, or being near another raced person.

[Funka Genocide]

I just wanted to comment that human behavior patterns are far too complex to sum up in absolutes like that. And to completely debunk your whole premise there (sorry! :p ) All my dad ever listened to was country music, and he would never let me listen to anything else.

I hate country music, I listen to hip hop, alternative, pop, punk rock and all other manner of music. SO while parents are definitely a big influence on a persons development, they are certainly not the only one.

[Gilgamesh in a Hat]

So it comes down to this basically,

What are the Biggest Influences on a Persons Social and Cultural Outcome.

I say religion, race, and favorite sandwich topping (pickles).
What do you say?

p.s does your name mean you dislike funk music and are thus Genociding it, or do you like funk and just have a mixed up name?

[adamark]

Oprah isn't white culture. To say so is just silly. How can a BLACK person be part of WHITE culture? For that matter, what does skin color have to do with culture?Oprah is white culture. Who are her fans. Watch her show once and look at her crowd. You will see a disproportionate percentage of whites in her audience every episode.

There is no such thing as urban and suburban culture. To make that claim is to completely disregard all technological achievements in the past 100 years of our history. We are not an ancient civilization where we stay either in the city or in the village our entire lives. Virtually all people have access to cars, railroads, buses, airplanes, tv (big emphasis), telephones, internet... etc. transportation and communication have eliminated the urban and suburban cultures. the cultures we normally attribute to those "zones" must be due to something else, because they are not bound by geography, which is why i can find 100 examples of "urban" culture in my suburban high school.

[Gilgamesh in a Hat]

First off, we still need to decide what the biggest influence on culture is, as stated in my last post.

Lastly we are SO off topic. Do cultures Discriminate against other cultures why try to un descrimitize themselves.

[Funka Genocide]

There is no such thing as urban and suburban culture. To make that claim is to completely disregard all technological achievements in the past 100 years of our history. We are not an ancient civilization where we stay either in the city or in the village our entire lives. Virtually all people have access to cars, railroads, buses, airplanes, tv (big emphasis), telephones, internet... etc. transportation and communication have eliminated the urban and suburban cultures. the cultures we normally attribute to those "zones" must be due to something else, because they are not bound by geography, which is why i can find 100 examples of "urban" culture in my suburban high school.

well, perhaps I should start referring to it as "urban" instead of urban. I think you understand what was really said, and are just looking for an alternate point of contention, which is cool with me, just commenting...

Subcultures, that is what we are really talking about here. Culture is determined by circumstance, an awful lot of things add up to create an entire human being.

The way a person interracts with society is not determined by the color of their skin. That is what I am trying to say. You don't act "black" becasue you are black, you do it because of numerous external influences throughout your life. that is my stand. (and by you I mean a generalized "you", with quotation marks. :p )

[Gilgamesh in a Hat]

I guess a person would be influenced in their sociality more by other people. The only way their color would get in the way is if they were to run into a racist event. I'm interested. What if a black child was born to a completely white family because of two resesive genes that were to add up. Would the child be black or white in his actions, and how would society react to such a child?

[Meister]

"En Guarde"?
"Oooo don't you feel special with your big fancy post"?
"Final Showdown"?

What the fuck? Gilgamesh, if you don't stop making discussions into fights, we'll have to have a talk.

Even if it's lighthearted, no. Knock it off. Seriously.

[Funka Genocide]

I've been thinking about this all day, and I finally realized why I can't find an answer.

to elaborate, the question I've been asking myself is this:

how can I define a culture in one word?

the answer...

I can't! Nobody can! Culture is a cop out!

there is no such thing as blanket psychology, every individual has their very own, distinct outlook and mannerisms. Some behaviors may be similar (at a basic level) between persons of similar background, but these similarities are not significant enough, or even similar enough, to categorize humanity into convenient little logic cubicles.

Every individual person in the world is completely unique, and trying to define them by saying "they act black" or "they act white" is just not giving anyone enough thought.

cultural classification is like cliffs notes for humanity, it makes things a little easier to grasp, but what you're grasping is insignificant when compared with the actual work. In order to understand humanity and "culture" you need to understand every person in the world.

This may not be news to anyone, but then again maybe your not thinking about it the way I am. Society is an intellectual environment, it is an enduring structure with its very own history and objectives. (as convoluted as they may be) We are all placed into this construct with a blank slate, and dependent on what we experience within it, we turn out who we are.

society says

if your genes originated in this part of the world, you shall behave in this manner when confronted with this situation, if variables a, b and c are equivalent to some such sum. However, here are an infinite number of alternative solutions to this problem, all of which have differing probabilities of being socially acceptable, dependent on your particular societal environment. Also, I have not listed every possible outcome, and may at a later date confront you with more. Decide... DECIDE NOW!!!

that poor, confused little kid says

I want my mommy!

and this is how we come to accept culture as a real entity, when in facts its more like societies convenient little pneumonic device

I'm finished now

*takes a breath and passes out from over exertion*

[Jagos]

I'm of the belief that discrimination happens when people assume one thing about someone's race based simply on second hand knowledge. Ex- A father doesn't like gay people. But all of a sudden, after 40 years and two kids, the first born comes out of the shell. Now Father Dear can either A) Beat the kid senseless because his world has been shattered or B) try to come to terms with his son being the way he is.

Either way, he has to unlearn a lot of his own past. It's the same with almost anything. If you were taught one way and something goes against that teaching, you can try to learn about it or fight it.