Order and Chaos: Source of both Creation and Destruction

[Aerozord]

I assume you know of the meta-physical concepts of Order, chaos, creation, destruction. First to break things down. Order is logic, control, and law. Chaos is emotion, freedom, and anarchy.

Now humans naturally have both elements, as does society as a whole. However I began looking at how these two conflicting concepts interact in the human psyche. More spacifically my own. I am a person who has high pressence of both concepts. I have found in any, and especial conditions like mine, there are two out comes and as a rule both are present in everyone.


When two oppisite forces meet each other the result is often destruction. A personified example would be what happens when you shove a hippy and a conservative into the same room and say, "how do you feel about legalizing drugs". Nothing gets acomplished and only conflict and destruction can result.

However there is of course a another outcome. You can merge the concepts melding them into one and embrasing the best qualities in both. My example is invention. Without the imagination of chaos nothing new can come forth, but without the logic of order you can never make the idea work.

Thus both creation and destruction can both be created by the opposing forces of Order and Chaos.

well thats all I am saying for now. Please forgive any misspellings. I just had to put this concept on the floor, sure most of you already realized this.

oh and foot note I didn't know where to stick this paragraph

These two forces can never truely overcome the other. In a tyranical society for example, anarchy and freedom movements take place and topple such reigms. In a case where there is no control leadership will take place and humans natural desire for order creates law and structure.

[DragonLord]

OK but you never really asked a question or anything. This is a statement. What are we supposed to talk about. Its like.... yeah, ok, and... whats your point.

[Robot Jesus]

I might as well say something. Nietzsche said that mankind does not have the capacity to improve but only to destroy an recreate. Without destruction there can only be stagnation. But through destruction we can rebuild and create. I wouldn’t say its 100% true, but about 87%.

[Hamelin]

Well... if we're looking at matter, technically, regardless of what we or anything else does, things will always eventually descend into chaos. Chaotic systems are innately much more stable than ordered systems, due to the lower level of potential energy contained in a chaotic system. The Second Law of Thermodynamics covers this.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy. A watchspring-driven watch will run until the potential energy in the spring is converted, and not again until energy is reapplied to the spring to rewind it. A car that has run out of gas will not run again until you walk 10 miles to a gas station and refuel the car. Once the potential energy locked in carbohydrates is converted into kinetic energy (energy in use or motion), the organism will get no more until energy is input again. In the process of energy transfer, some energy will dissipate as heat. Entropy is a measure of disorder: cells are NOT disordered and so have low entropy. The flow of energy maintains order and life. Entropy wins when organisms cease to take in energy and die.Basically, there's no such thing as a force of order. To attempt to bring order to any material thing is to temporarily hold off the inevitable decay into chaos. Right now the sun is the thing that is holding off entropy, but eventually that will burn out, as will (hypothetically) all the other stars in the universe. If given enough time, the universe would mearly be a jumble of single atoms floating around, all at a consistantly equal level of heat.

Entropy always wins. Time makes fools of us all, it seems.

[Aerozord]

actually my point was not that of nature itself. Laws of physics govern everything. Random events are simple illusions that we precieve of random (chaos theory).

I am making the point of human thinking and society.

Oh and there is no question. I just needed to vent is all. If you wanna discuss go ahead

[Hamelin]

Humanity is part of nature, is it not?

As above, as below, eh? What applies to the greatest scale of things applies to us lowly humans as well no? My point was that it takes extensive effort to keep some sort of order to things, and if that effort (or energy) is removed, everything crashes down.

The most fascist governments have to keep a near-constant watch on the people of that nation because the smallest chink in that effort could make the entire system crumble to dust, at least until another person or group expends the energy to bring back some sort of order.

[Sato]

Let me say this:

Humans don't understand random, our brains work off connections and draw conclusions.

[The_Bear]

About law and chaos, I feel that there is a balance between them. Without order, what would be chaos? Without chaos, what would be order? It's all a matter of perspective. Too much of either is devastating, as seen by dictatorships (order) and anarchies (chaos).

It's the same with creation and destruction too. Without creation, there is nothing to destroy. If nothing is ever destroyed, there is nothing new to create. Wihout both, neither can exist.

If you can't tell by now, I typically play true neutral characters ;).

[RedScar]

First of all chaos is not emotion, freedom, and anarchy. Or at least acorring to me. What you described would be more along the lines of pre creation. Or the planing of creation. But I see chaos as this (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=010730)

Now the wayyou describe chaos I think you could be droped of in the middle of nowhere and have to survive. You'd have freedow to plan live and create a house, a home, a life. Make tools to survive. With your order you use the laws of nature to live. Also I belive this is another way to describe Chaos

*Spolier for gamers* (Invisible)
HP:20,000
ATK:170
ACC:200
DEF:100
AGI:50
INT:40
EVA:100
M. DEF: 200
GIL:0
EXP:0
TREASURE:None

[Aerozord]

First of all chaos is not emotion, freedom, and anarchy. Or at least acorring to me. What you described would be more along the lines of pre creation. Or the planing of creation. But I see chaos as this (http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=010730)


Order is lack of chaos, chaos is lack of order. Freedom and emotion are chaos because they are not controled. If they were they would cease to be. Your brain is seperated in actuality between these two. Right is chaos, the abstract concepts of color, imagination, emotions while your left is in control of things like numbers, systems, and logic.


*Spolier for gamers* (Invisible)
HP:20,000
ATK:170
ACC:200
DEF:100
AGI:50
INT:40
EVA:100
M. DEF: 200
GIL:0
EXP:0
TREASURE:None
I dont even know where you were going with that...oh wait, now I do....*cough*

[RedScar]

Dude you made the stufff visable in your quote. And really where do you think I got it?

Anyways... If one is somewhere where there is no set order and chaos then when one adjusts to this change(i.e. stops panicing) they can create their own order and chaos.

[Azisien]

Interesting as this is, where are we taking this? Aside from taking some stabs at what order and chaos are (using analogies of light and dark), and spitting out definitions of physical laws from the first link we find on google...

On a big scale, Hamelin is correct, but in this discussion I would say the mentioning of the second law is utterly pointless. We're talking about humanity on Earth, not the cosmos. The second law you pasted refers to a closed system only, but we are in an open system (as you may have tried to point out).

It gets pretty mushy, I'd say order is far more important to us than chaos. Why? Because we are beings of order, simply put, and our entire existence is a struggle against chaos. (As Hamelin's pasting of the definition vaguely points out). Destruction is far easier than construction, and that's because the universe flows towards chaos much easier than it does chaos. With that in mind, I'd say order is prominent for us because, whether we like it or not, our healthy dose of chaos is already there.

Editted to say: I had a thought, you put dictatorship and anarchy as examples of order and chaos regarding society and so on. But you also said our mind is half order, half chaos (though of that we can't be entirely certain). If that's the case, then a dictatorship is not perfectly order, it is ruled by an individual who uses his/her half order, half chaos mind. Same idea works with anarchy. It doesn't remain stable because we are not fully chaotic creatures, our existence is non-chaotic, and thus the formation of law and hierarchy is innate to us.

[Aerozord]

well we have both order and chaos inside our psyche but I never said they were equal. In fact it is a rare few that have both and can utilize it constructively. A dictatory might have both order and chaos but that person is dominately order. Like an anarcist may not like order and law but still has both, merely preffers chaos and freedom.

Also you must remember you cannot destroy a physical object without getting something new. You may destroy a piece of wood in a fire but you create heat, water vapor, CO2, ect. The reverse is also true. If you make something what it was is destroyed. When I spoke of how order and chaos creating and destroying I ment a persons mind purely.

Basically a person with strong sence of order and chaos is internally conflicted. It is possible they may seperate the two and develope a split personality, or they may just mentally break down not being able to handle dealing with both (hence destruction).

A persons "self" is not a physical object. It does not obey the laws of matter meaning it can solely create or destroy.