[Menarker]

Excuse me for the following. If it seems like it's missing something, it's because I feel exhausted and feel scatterbrained lately from school and work and such.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Wha...

You have customized every single aspect of Mollesk. Moves, stats, abilities, hold item, everything. If he's bad at what he does, if he isn't well-designed, that is your very own fault.


I'm not trying to put you down or anything, but I have had it with Mollesk. Enough already! It is min-maxed more than any other pokemon in existence! Fully and completely optimized! It does not need more customization, it does not need more power!

I don't feel like he's not well-designed. I did lots of customization for sure and it is showing by him fulfilling his part as a wall. Look, I'm not asking for a move that improves his survival immensely or such. I just want a move that I could have Mollesk use that could let him use a bug type attack for STAB and doesn't outright suck. Hence why I suggested making a total duplicate of Rock Slide but bug type. Also, see below.

Because the fact that he's defensive doesn't make him much weaker. How does our setting detract from the strength of defensive pokemon? And if that's really what you think, why didn't you mention it before?

We HAVE mentioned it before! Repeatably. The main reason for that is because pokemons that don't have any attack power and can only act as walls or status moves do not have significant ability to influence the battle field without extra support.
Look, let me use my Umbreon as an example. It is the second bulkiest pokemon in Renny's team. It has 110 defense and 130 special defense and its Hitpoints is pretty high too at 95. It is meant to be incredibly hard to knock out even surviving one or even two super effective hits. This is supposed to be supplemented by the options of Confuse Ray and Double Team and Toxic or use Moonlight or Detect or that sort of thing.

However, we are in a setting that does NOT reward this sort of combat style because:
A: Increased numbers of Foes are capable of ganging up on a single target before they have time to buff. A single pokemon can only do one action for every 5 actions a team of 5 foes has.

B: Only effecting one foe with a status affliction is not going to ensure that attacks won't stop coming. If anything, it barely slows down them down as only one attacker out of many is deterred IF you are lucky with confusion or paralysis. Thus far, Status afflictions had only been valuable when they are AOE or come attached to an offensive move to do damage or stop foes from attacking with a success rate near 100%.

C: Due to the length of times between posts, and the speed of the RP, expecting to be able to buff for combats is not a viable plan if the rewards are in small increments and/or on low stats due to it working on percentage.

D: Due to the same issue with time, statuses and moves that do damage in small increments like poison, leech seed, burn and other similar DOTs (Damage Over Time) do not have considerable worth.

E: Both of the last two points are CRUICAL because you can't win a fight without some form of win condition. Walls can't win just by stalling since there is no actual victory by timer. They have to live long enough for DOTs to actually work or for their actual weak attacks to pile up on top like snow.

F: The DOTs techniques tend to have little value in this setting where due to our increased numbers, we also tend to gang-attack cruical targets, thus there is often little to no total damage contributed by actual DOT moves once all the damage of big attacks are tabulated despite DoTs taking the same amount of time (an attack action) and...

G: Status moves do not help PCs/NPCs/Pokemons gain any rage like attack moves do despite requiring an attack action and taking longer to defeat the foes in question.

However durable Umbreon is supposed to be, the reality is that Umbreon has been knocked out rather easily in this RP practically every time it has been sent out and has not once been more than a delay tactic in this RP via Protect or a source of Helping Hand. Both of her attack stats are low, her defenses and stamina have more or less been ignored and confusion is not a sure status. The fact that I intend to give her a new custom move later on with a different role is meant to help give her a new purpose since her actual role in the games do not translate effectively at all in this setting.

Thus if you look at Mollesk, he's basically the answer to why my customization could be justified. He's basically a modified version of what I originally hoped Umbreon could be. Simple ability allows him to get sufficent amount of power/reward for his action per post turn, while still giving him a potential weakpoint. His base stats have not been modified as much as you say. His speed/special attack have barely been lowered and both his defenses are exactly the same as his pre-evolution. Only his stamina and his physical attack has been raised far above the normal range of Shuckle who is otherwise considered a gimick pokemon. Because he doesn't have toxic and DOT moves, but rather have direct offense move with a pretty decent average attack stat, he can actually contribute to combat where status moves and DOTs could not due to time restraints. Basically, all the customization is built to enable a viable wall type pokemon where this setting does not otherwise enable it.

Hmm... true. But, and this is rather important, we still had plenty of rage rockets to go around back then. Those were a pretty significant in rage generation back then. Not so much now. One major difference.
Also, last mission, you did use Mollesk and Swampert quite a lot, didn't you? We didn't see that much of Togekiss. But that doesn't have to be the case all the time.

One mission is nice, but to call it 'actual testing'... nah. That is not how experimental method works. If you wanted to invalidate my math, you'd have to do, like, 20, 30 different tests at least. Or at least suggest reasons why the math wouldn't be valid?

Now that'd just be stupid. I'm fine with rage-generating items! Just not ones that potentially more than double the amount of rage you get.

Which item are we talking about? If you mean the Supporter's Headband, or whatever it's called, my main problem with that is that it double's renny's rage generation. I'm sure I mentioned that before.

And I did find it rather strange that you went 'NOPE I WANT SOMETHING ELSE' once you ran out of counter-arguments. Why did you do that?

I did NOT run out of counter-arguments. I'm honestly frustrated by what I feel from you is a compulsive neurotic need to prove me guilty or wrong!

Should mention that the testing we did was in the BEST situation when Renny was beside Harliette. The one who doubles rage? In other situations with other allies, the rage that he would have actually gotten would have been lower.

Look, the setting has changed drastically. No denying that. Medic nerf and thus lack of Rage Rockets means a huge change for the item. When at first discussed the Bandanna item, the setting was the way it was before. Rage Rockets were plentiful, and would far outstrip what rage Renny would have gotten. The item was tenatively accepted on the basis that we would still be observing it and that was under the context of the old rules.

Now, we have the new rules and the item is coming under fire again under the new context despite it never actually having gone overboard even in the best circumstance (Harliette being the ally) in the previous one.

Due to that, I felt the item should still be left as is since it had not once been a problem for balance. You're complaining about it, but it had not been an actual gameplay issue and you don't even want to give it a chance under the new setting. Your insistance on looking only on the math and not giving it the chance in actual play when it proved ok by far in the past borders on seeming closedminded. It also shows in you submitting your previously rejected alternative without remedying any of the objections why it was rejected in the first place. (See below)

I suggested the new item on the off-chance the argument could be adverted by a new approach which I would have been fine with and which could be disucssed. Better than the possible alternative of exploding in a flame war or accepting a custom item that I do not feel remotely happy about. Since rage is a highly involved mechanic and universal power fuel for PC/NPCs which we could spend ages on debating, I felt that proposing an item that uses an easier to discuss mechanic that is still potent might be something worth considering. I apologize that item seems like a smug come-back, since that was not the intended mood or objective. I meant to open up a different line of conversation worth debating and considering alternatives for an item I'm willing to switch to. That fact that I said it would combo hard with AncientPower was meant to show the upper-limit of what it could do.

You see, Serene Grace doubles the success rate of secondary effects on offensive moves. Tripling it seems like the next likely step for an upgrade. However, that would mean Air Slash, the most useful move for Togekiss has a 90% chance of Flinching. Other moves like Water Pulse for 60% confusion or Twister for 60% AOE flinch would also be considerably powerful. Also, it would be somewhat harder for the GM to decide if it succeeds or not.

Then I thought of making it so secondary effects trigger 50% of the time for moves that do not succeed in hitting that mark. So Air Slash would still be 60% and thus have a more realistic chance of failing, but the other effects would be boosted, be similar to Slayer attacks in their rate of success and failure, 50/50. Something easily decided by a coin flip. Of course, I felt compelled to mention that it would be powerful with moves like Ancient Power so as not to be accused of trying to break balance.

Another idea that recently came to mind was to add a moderately powerful effect that would activate every time Serene Grace successfully activated. Can't think of what exactly though at the moment. I guess it could be a minor rage gain, a +1 boost to Special Attack and defense or AOE flash healing or something... Once again, willing to discuss.

I was trying to suggest a new avenue for a custom item that I would be willing to enter discussions about that would probably be more fruitful than one that touches on the volatile mechanic of rage generation. If you change your mind and would like to discuss the new item instead, I'd be willing to try it.

Also, I did actually propose alternatives to the headband. Not even that much of a nerf. Renny gains defensive rage from 2 adjacent pokemon to either side, and togekiss takes 1/4 empathy damage every time one of them gets hit by an attack.

Your proposed nerfed item? It sounds stupid. It did then and it is now. Why should Togekiss have to suffer damage? Why only pokemon? Heck, how about the fact that the closest pokemon on side of Togekiss would be one of Renny's pokemon and thus it screw things up more? How is "empathy" damage even measured from rage? It complicate things for AB or whomever is the GM at the time! I hated (and still hate) your proposed item because it's weaker while suddenly becoming uncontrollably harmful to the wielder, lacks thematic value (both in only caring for pokemons and in the pain aspect), and is a pain in the ass for anyone to calculate.

The nerfs don't have to be so damn excessive or complicated. Maybe make it so it only works if Togekiss is status-free. Or a base number of rage gained per hit, like 5 rage. That way, if the ally hit is a slayer/pokebrid whom normally gain 10 base rage, or if the party has "low morale" (which doubles everyone's rage generation) or the ally has some sort of rage generation boost (Harliette or a PC), then it would still only give 5 rage per hit regardless of how much they might gain.

I'll ignore the fact that this was your first counter-argument, and the implications thereof to your case. But come on. I'd gladly give constructive criticism! But only once we all agree that criticism is in order! If you guys had a history of agreeing with me, sure! I'd be making so many suggestions, you would not believe. But as it is, you guys disagree with me a lot, our discussions tend to go nowhere. Before I invest into suggesting improvements, I need to know that we all agree that we need improvements!
You're honestly asking me to spend time thinking up and proposing alternatives just in case you feel like accepting one of them? And you're doing this while going 'BUT NO ALTERNATIVES ARE NECESSARY, DOUBLE RAGE IS TOTALLY BALANCED!'.
Really, Menarker?
Really?

I never said "no alternatives are necessary" or anything like that. I said there was no actual testing proof that it was unbalanced due to the testing under the best circumstances and how we were still observing it! And the reasons for your "alternatives" being rejected in the past often have to do with how unreasonable some of the previous ones (see above one) have been.

Heck, I listed the new custom item as a potential alternative worth exploring. Although, I willingly admit that the tone that I posted was not the tone I intended.

Let's look back to a more successful discussion. When we were discussing your character upgrade plan. When we discussed everything then, there was more discussion of we'd felt would be acceptable for what could go up, what could go down (or added/removed) and then suggest why that would be considered acceptable. That worked out fairly well because if there was an issue, those reasons could be debated or elaborated on, or the proportions could be adjusted. We would discuss a technique of yours, how it would be used in a given situation and circumstances. And each counter-proposal always came with a explanation for each given change which could then be approved or disproved on any given component. That sort of thing. I think that worked out pretty successfully then.

Now, though, what we are basically running on is us shooting out spontaneous nerfs/alterations without giving a possible reason or rhyme as to why such a change is viable. You shout out that my item sucks because it's too powerful. Double Rage is no good. Then you post a previously rejected item with no explanation as to why each of those changes is a step in a right direction while still being a worthwhile item. We would propose items that we would reject as a whole, not able to discuss which parts were viable or not and why as opposed to their individual parts.