Gun Laws

[adamark]

The US Supreme Court announced yesterday that it will look into the right to own guns and make a ruling.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1121/p25s09-usju.html

This is a crucial issue that every American should be interested in. How would you feel if a panel of 9 people took away your right to defend yourself and your family? They hold this very power over our heads. If they are foolish enough to make that ruling it would mean that the government and criminals have guns, while the regular citizens get victimized (criminals never give up their weapons). It also means that any future president can rip away (more) civil liberties and we won't be able to do jack shit about it because the possibility of a revolution would have been effectively swept off the table. Strict gun control paves the way for fascism in America, not that we aren't half-way there already!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qyoLuTjguJA

[Mr.Bookworm]

...I take it you're a member of the NRA?

I'd just like to say that I hate it when people point to guns as a solution to everything.

I'm a pacifist.

Weapons are a last resort, and even then they should not be used lightly. If you can't solve a problem through non-violent actions, you honestly aren't trying enough.

Now, let me address your post:

This is a crucial issue that every American should be interested in. How would you feel if a panel of 9 people took away your right to defend yourself and your family?

Oh please. I'm sick of people acting like guns erect a magical barrier over you and your family that prevents death. Guns just kill people.

They hold this very power over our heads.

Give me a break. You're acting like the government is a fascist group that wants to put us all in labor camps. Are they stupid, incompetent, and many other things often? Yes. But they're not out and out evil.

If they are foolish enough to make that ruling it would mean that the government and criminals have guns, while the regular citizens get victimized (criminals never give up their weapons).

No. Just... no. Even if guns did solve anything, they would just be harder to get.

It also means that any future president can rip away (more) civil liberties and we won't be able to do jack shit about it because the possibility of a revolution would have been effectively swept off the table. Strict gun control paves the way for fascism in America, not that we aren't half-way there already!

This is the most misguided statement I have heard all year.

There are thousands of revolutions in histories. I would say that a number of them were non-violent.

---

Why exactly are you acting like the Antichrist will rise if gun control laws are passed?

EDIT:

And why did you link to a video saying that gun control is needed to reduce crime, when you clearly have opposing viewpoints?

[KaitlynAriana]

Ya know, I don't think gun control is a bad idea. It seems to work up here (in Canada)... But guns up North here are used for hunting. Why not just have a strict gun registry? Make sure that you have the proper stuff to own and operate a firearm and you can keep it. Granted guns can still be purchased illegally, but it makes sense... To me anyway.

[Ryu Van Burace]

Originally Posted by adamark

Strict gun control paves the way for fascism in America, not that we aren't half-way there already!

Oh I see. So non gun control would be a good idea? That's nice, maybe 5 year olds should be issued with guns to protect themselves from bullies who also have guns. Then the teachers have bigger guns to keep control in a classroom of kids with guns.

Strict gun control. Would it mean that criminals owning guns would be liable to be jailed nad have them taken off them, thus not actually being able to threaten people with said guns? You could only hope. The fact is that controls are in place for a reason. Not to be fascistic or anything else. You wouldn't give alcohol to a minor. You wouldn't give a XXX rated movie to a ten year old to entertain them for an afternoon and you wouldn't allow guns which are, let's face it, designed for only one real purpose, to be given out like candy.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Making guns illegal will not keep them out of the hands of criminals. And we already have laws that place criminals in jail for illegally carrying firearms. I'm one of those people who thinks if we put a gun in everyone's house (properly secured) then we would see a dramatic decrease in robberies and kidnappings. But at the same time, I could never picture myself with a gun in my house. I'm too afraid of something going wrong, like a kid getting hold of one and using it thinking it's a toy. I don't need that on my conscience.

I agree with Bookworm that guns should only be a last resort, but if gun ownership by citizens is ruled unconstitutional, we lose that resort. Then yes, only the bad guys and government will have access to guns because obviously if you want a gun then you'll either have to be part of law enforcement or get it illegally, i.e. be a criminal.

Oh please. I'm sick of people acting like guns erect a magical barrier over you and your family that prevents death. Guns just kill people.

I don't know about you, but I'd feel a hell of a lot safer with a gun in my hand if someone threatened my family. When it's between me and the other guy dying, it's going to be the other guy.

[Mr.Bookworm]

It's not a matter of them ruling gun ownership by citizens illegal, it's a matter of making them harder to get.

I don't know about you, but I'd feel a hell of a lot safer with a gun in my hand if someone threatened my family. When it's between me and the other guy dying, it's going to be the other guy.

That's not really what I meant. Would I shoot someone if I came down to him dying or someone in my family dying? Yes, I probably would.

I meant more of the thing where gun nuts act like if everyone owned a gun, the world would be a paradise.

[Seil]

In times like these, I turn to Joseph Chew and Scott Adams:

Originally Posted by Joseph Chew

"Expecting a carjacker or rapist or drug pusher to care that his possession or use of a gun is unlawful is like expecting a terrorist to care that his car bomb is taking up two parking spaces."

Originally Posted by Scott Adams

"I believe everyody in the world should have guns. Citizens should have bazookas and rocket launchers too. I believe that all citizens should have their weapons of choice. However, I also believe that only I should have the ammunition. Because frankly, I wouldn't trust the rest of the goobers with anything more dangerous than string."

[Toast]

Here is an interesting article that debunks several of the commonly thrown around statistics that people use to support gun control. In particular, the 43:1 ratio of gun deaths by homicide, suicide, and accidents to self defense is almost entirely made up of suicide deaths. People who are going to commit suicide are going to find a way to do so even if they don't have a gun.

Another Article is comprised of a number of studies. Some seem like common sense, such as :

Persons living in a home where a gun was present were 3.7 times more likely to die

from an unintentional gunshot wound than persons with no gun in the home. But others are more important, such as:

After adjusting for other variables, persons living in a home where a gun was present
were 1.4 times more likely to be a homicide victim than persons with no gun in the home.

But this says nothing about how many homicides or other violent criminal acts were prevented by owning a gun. I read a couple of years ago that the number of deaths prevented by guns in the home may have been as much as 40,000. I can't find the source, but I'll keep looking.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Toast

But this says nothing about how many homicides or other violent criminal acts were prevented by owning a gun. I read a couple of years ago that the number of deaths prevented by guns in the home may have been as much as 40,000. I can't find the source, but I'll keep looking.

Actually, from what I can tell, it says everything about how many homicides are prevented by owning a gun. Statistically speaking, you are 1.4 times more likely to be murdered if there's a gun in your house. That's a -140% homicide prevention rate, right there.

Also, I'm frankly quite tired of this whole "but if we illegalize owning a gun then only the criminals will have guns" argument. By that logic we should legalize heroin, anthrax, and child concubines, because only criminals have those, too. It's silly.

That said, I still think people should be allowed to own firearms. I think there should be some regulation of exactly what kind of firearm a private citizen can have access to, but I wouldn't be in favor of taking away all guns everywhere just because they're dangerous.

And yeah, repealing the right to bear arms is historically the first step toward toward total government dictatorship, as the public no longer has the ability to effectively rise up against oppressors when necessary.

Also, the majority of the US Supreme Court is made up of appointees from Republican administrations. Gun ownership isn't going anywhere.

[pictish]

Gun control threads always feel so weird, seeings how I've never had experience with guns, nor is gun just a day to day thing. I certainly didn't grow up being told having a gun was my right. Just a matter of geographical placement and all that.

I think it's clear the extremes being hinted at by both sides are undesirable (children with guns vs criminals strutting around like they own the place) but I think neither hideously likely to arise with some increase or decrease to gun control. I understand people love to have a means of defending themselves, but I'm also aware guns are to be stored safely somewhere secure away from the kids etc. I'm just not 100% certain when a burgler, pumped up with adrenline coming in it 4am clearly with a decided reason to do so is going to be chased off by hardly concious, just awoken gun owner who has to fanny around with the lock on some drawer (and the key's a pain to find with just that lamp on too). Perhaps it's a lack of personal mental capacity, but I cannot imagine having a gun in the house being some be all end all deterrent from criminals anymore than, say, having a big dog who while a pile of slobbery affection to the family is a proper loud snarling beast towards someone sneaking in at the dead of night. Not that I'd suggest we trade in guns for dogs, just that I can't see the whole 'burgler scared off by gun weilding law abiding citizen' thing that is brought up any time gun control is discussed.

As well as that, the other thing brought up with gun control every time - You are not going to stop a government revolution, though it pains me to crush the fantasy. Or at least, again, my mental powers fails to conjure a realistic image of average citizens many of whom may be entirely untrained with firearms taking a stand against a military totalitarian regime and nipping that in the bud. Perhaps I've missed something important, but again it seems highly unlikely to me that suddenly president so and so decides to overthrow America by force with whatever military and is thwarted by the common gun-wielding citizens uniting.

That said, I find it difficult to place where I think the right stuff is on gun control. I see valid points made both ways, though I'd say that ignoring hypotheticals and looking at modern America, I find it unlikely guns could realistically be controlled with how widely available they are. Not that I've any expertise on that, oh well.

By that logic we should legalize heroin

We so totally should legalise all drugs, but that looks dangerously like another topic.