Gun Laws

[Fifthfiend]

I'd happily trade the right to bear arms for the rights in the other nine amendments that they've taken away in the last seven years.

[Demetrius]

Originally Posted by Seil

Look at it this way. I could have the right to kill anyone, right now, for no other reason then I wanted to. It doesn't matter why or how I have this right, I just do. Now, if someone tried to take this right from me, I could argue that it's infringing on my rights. But the world would be a safer place if I didn't have that right, so they're gonna try and take it away from me.

I honestly don't understand people when they say things like "I have the right to carry around a shotgun nearly everywhere I go. Even though I'm not going to, I have no reason to, and it would be awkward to explain it at the bank and McDonalds, it's always nice to know I'm able to." The issue is not that they're directly attacking you, or your rights, it's that they're attacking guns.

Let's take a look at guns. What are guns designed to do? They are specifically designed in order to hurt or otherwise kill someone. To hurt, or kill someone. Whether or not you hunt with it or you use it on people is a different story. You own something that has no other purpose in existence other than cause harm. And you think that you an use it for protection? That's backwards.

Guns are like the one ring.

That is because you are idealistic and naive. I can bring this all around with another little thing. Do you enjoy the right to lock your doors? Well, you what? Locks only keep honest people honest.

The same principal applies to guns. Taking away the possibility that someone who is robbing someone might be confronted with a weapon, you have just given yourself to them. An honest person would have no defense from a dishonest one.

As you said, just because I have the right to kill someone doesn't mean that I will, this is because I have a conscience and with that I am able to weigh the life of a person. Without that, I could care less what the laws say. I'll be scott-free to do as I wish.

Taking guns and requiring strict registration is all well and good, but give me a break, this will cause more issues than it will solve.

[Seil]

That is because you are idealistic and naive. I can bring this all around with another little thing. Do you enjoy the right to lock your doors? Well, you what? Locks only keep honest people honest.

I actually don't lock my doors. I live in a small Canadian town, and in the words of Brent Butt:

There's virtually no crime in a small town - know why? It's because when the police ask you who stole your car, you say
"Jim did."
"What the hell is Jim doing stealing cars?"
"Oh well he's got that new TV, he's probably having a hard time making the payments."
"Should we pick him up at work, then?"
"No, it's Tuesday - he'll be at home with the kids."

But just because you have a conscious, does not mean that other people share the same views or have the same moral barometer as you do. And these people also have the right to bear arms. But with more strict gun laws, guns could be taken out of the hands of say... a paranoid schizophrenic.

Does that mean that a serial killer is going to abide by these laws, or a bank robber or a rapist or a drug pusher? No, it doesn't. These people will still have weapons on them, and will use them to get what they want. Does that mean that bank tellers, convenience store clerks and suburban families are totally defenseless because they can't use guns? No. This just means that they have gotten rid of something which could cause more harm than good.

Lets say someone does break into your home with the intent to cause harm. Now, you can either pick up a gun and shoot him, to which he can sue you - literally sue you - because you used unnecessary force to bring him down, or you could wait for an alarm system to kick in and for the police to come. You could hit him over the had with a pipe. You could sic your dog on him. You could do a whole slew of things to defend your home than rely on an implement of death.

And what's with these people who have semi-automatic weaponry, or grenades, or whatever - and claim that they use them for "home protection?"

[Mannix]

Originally Posted by Seil

I actually don't lock my doors. I live in a small Canadian town, and in the words of Brent Butt:



But just because you have a conscious, does not mean that other people share the same views or have the same moral barometer as you do. And these people also have the right to bear arms. But with more strict gun laws, guns could be taken out of the hands of say... a paranoid schizophrenic.

Unless they bought it on the black market. And they could still stab you or club you or poison you or strangle you.

Originally Posted by Seil

Does that mean that a serial killer is going to abide by these laws, or a bank robber or a rapist or a drug pusher? No, it doesn't. These people will still have weapons on them, and will use them to get what they want. Does that mean that bank tellers, convenience store clerks and suburban families are totally defenseless because they can't use guns? No. This just means that they have gotten rid of something which could cause more harm than good.

So, it doesn't actually stop anybody from doing anything, but the world's a safer place? I'd be willing to be more kids die from huffing paint every year than accidental gunshot, and I know more die in car accidents and from disease. We have bigger fish to fry, frankly.

Originally Posted by Seil

Lets say someone does break into your home with the intent to cause harm. Now, you can either pick up a gun and shoot him, to which he can sue you - literally sue you - because you used unnecessary force to bring him down, or you could wait for an alarm system to kick in and for the police to come. You could hit him over the had with a pipe. You could sic your dog on him. You could do a whole slew of things to defend your home than rely on an implement of death.

If somebody breaks into your home when you shoot them, they have no grounds for lawsuit. Also, even if they did you could just shoot them dead and then say they threatened to kill everybody in the house. Not everybody has a dog, and having your dog attack them makes you just as liable as if you had shot them to begin with.

Originally Posted by Seil

And what's with these people who have semi-automatic weaponry, or grenades, or whatever - and claim that they use them for "home protection?"

Semi-automatic isn't as deadly as it sounds. I'm iffy on handing out military grade weaponry though, as it would escalate pretty quickly.


Fifth, call me greedy if you will, but I want all of my rights.

And I want to know why this is the only amendment bandied about in crime prevention discussion. Why not nix the eighth and have anything goes for punishment? Surely having freakish and inhuman punishments would be a pretty good deterrent for criminals, and you wouldn't have anything to worry about unless you're a criminal.

I'm having trouble finding the article, but a few years ago a full gun ban was enacted in Australia a few years ago. The first two years after the ban crime dropped, but in every year after violent crime has been on a steady rise. IF anybody can help me out with the article that would be super, Google just ain't doing it for me.

[adamark]

I'm a bleeding heart liberal, I believe in the power of the People. It makes me sick to read some of the responses on this thread. To take away guns is to neuter and de-claw the People. To take away gun rights is to tip the scales in favor or criminals and make fascism a real possibility.

btw - This isn't just about a LAW, this is the CONSTITUTION, which overrides ALL laws. This is HUGE. If the supreme court ruled that the 2nd amendment only pertains to state militias and NOT to individuals, all states would be compelled to collect firearms. Owning one would be a federal crime. This is the scariest thing I have seen in quite a while, and frankly, if the U.S. were to make gun ownership unconstitutional, I will seriously have to consider leaving this country.

BTW to the "pacifist" -- it's all well and good to not like violence and to try to resolve things peacefully, but I am a realist. When I was 16, home alone, my house was broken into. I grabbed a fire poker to defend myself and prayed to god the son of a bitch didn't have a gun and wasn't coming for me. When criminals break the law, they trample on your rights with no regard for you as an individual. The cops took 30 minutes to arrive and smugly asked me what the hell I wanted from them. Maybe now you understand why I have this position.

[Kerensky287]

MY GOD, people! Some of you are blowing this WAY out of proportion!

1) Taking away guns won't necessarily make you all DIE. Someone's breaking into your house with a gun? Well, having your own gun won't necessarily stop them! You're acting like taking away your gun rights is like taking away your bomb shelter in a nuclear attack.

2) The ability to own a gun isn't necessarily a BAD THING. They CAN protect you. They CAN improve your chances of fighting off a criminal. Owning a gun won't MAKE you a criminal either.

Personally, I'd rather have some gun control (maybe just the canadian in me talking) because you can find other ways to protect yourself and your family. Baseball bat, maybe? How about an alarm system? Hell, why not go to town with a series of deadly traps? (I'm joking, of course)

EDIT: Re-reading a post or two... why would the state not just require a license for gun ownership? It doesn't HAVE to be a federal offense unless you don't get your license.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by Demetrius

That is because you are idealistic and naive. I can bring this all around with another little thing. Do you enjoy the right to lock your doors? Well, you what? Locks only keep honest people honest.

The same principal applies to guns. Taking away the possibility that someone who is robbing someone might be confronted with a weapon, you have just given yourself to them. An honest person would have no defense from a dishonest one.

But here in NZ we have very strict gun controls and if I remember correctly our rate of robberies is about 1/10 that of the US.
Guns aren't going to protect you. Why? Because your gun is nicely secured away from the children. The criminal, who has an easily acquired gun, has it, is ready to use it, has it all prepped up. Unless you are carrying a gun around always ready and loaded and prepared to fire the attacker has the advantage.
They are also well known to escalate incidents, turning what would be robberies into murders, due to the fact that both sides have to have guns and if they are used they are likely to kill.
Also equating people who break one law as "criminals" who break all laws is not useful. Just because a person breaks one laws doesn't mean they are going to break them all.
For example a person who, out of hunger, decides to steal some food from someone isn't necessarily going to feel comfortable getting a gun and shooting people. I'm sure lots of you have jaywalked, have parked illegally while you posted a letter or have downloaded stuff illegally. Does this mean if guns were illegal you would be happy to get them illegally and then use them to go on rampages?
Guns are illegal here and we are a small country so we hear about murders and things. The only ever gun killing I've heard of was of legal acquired guns in the hands of farmers.

There is a huge problem in the US though, that everyone already has the guns and there are heaps of them. This is not a problem that can be fixed by legislation. It would need a complete change of culture which I don't really see happening. Creating gun control laws now would be problematic.

Also I don't buy the whole Government must be afraid of the people thing.
Look at the US government right now. Do they look like they are afraid of the people? Bush is trampling over the supposed checks on his power.
And it's not like the US has a particularly democratic form of goverment. A lot of the US constitution, such as the multiple levels of checks and balances and the electoral systems, were designed because their was a great fear of the people and there was a feeling that they needed to be kept in check.
The governments of the 1700s and 1800s were crazily unstable and their was a constant fear the whole thing would come crashing down as the system relied upon the reputation of the office holders (which lead to crazy bills like the Sedition Act).
If the people really wanted the government to be afraid of them they would get rid of all the checks and balances placed on them by the constitution and move to a more democratic system.

Edit: Source for stuff on US democratic system, The Democratic Experiment: New Directions in American Political History, 2003

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by adamark

BTW to the "pacifist" -- it's all well and good to not like violence and to try to resolve things peacefully, but I am a realist. When I was 16, home alone, my house was broken into. I grabbed a fire poker to defend myself and prayed to god the son of a bitch didn't have a gun and wasn't coming for me. When criminals break the law, they trample on your rights with no regard for you as an individual. The cops took 30 minutes to arrive and smugly asked me what the hell I wanted from them. Maybe now you understand why I have this position.

You used a fire poker? Well I guess you must be dead now, because your house was broken into and you weren't armed to the teeth. Obviously you're no longer alive because all criminals (robbers included) immediately kill all innocents in their path (or out of their path, because they got guns), unless you're holding a Glock or shotgun or rocket launcher.

[russianreversal]

Originally Posted by Azisien

You used a fire poker? Well I guess you must be dead now, because your house was broken into and you weren't armed to the teeth. Obviously you're no longer alive because all criminals (robbers included) immediately kill all innocents in their path (or out of their path, because they got guns), unless you're holding a Glock or shotgun or rocket launcher.

Absolutely true. Unless the tip fired off, like in the punisher. That was badass.

Hmmm, lets amend the bill of rights so that only we can own guns, because obviously we can get the gun from every person in America. Yeah... Somehow, I don't think that's going to work.

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Seil

Look at it this way. I could have the right to kill anyone, right now,

No, that's not how rights work. Your rights stop right where another person's begins.