Gun Laws

[russianreversal]

Originally Posted by Mesden

No, that's not how rights work. Your rights stop right where another person's begins.

What if you living is killing another person, literally and not by your own will. What then? (serious question here folks, not just being cynical bastard this time and I'd actually like to know the answer)

[Mesden]

That's an unrealistic and entirely vague question. I get what you're saying, 1 person's right to live and another's conflicting under inescapable duress, but that seems such a ridiculous hypothetical that you could apply it to any kind of right. Just because you can dream up a way for all rights to conflict doesn't mean that we shouldn't have rights.

What if my right to speak is stopping someone else from speaking, literally and not by my own will? Should no one have the right to free speech? Extremism very rarely works.

[russianreversal]

Originally Posted by Mesden

That's an unrealistic and entirely vague question. I get what you're saying, 1 person's right to live and another's conflicting under inescapable duress, but that seems such a ridiculous hypothetical that you could apply it to any kind of right. Just because you can dream up a way for all rights to conflict doesn't mean that we shouldn't have rights. ...Extremism very rarely works.

Fair enough, but what if this really occurs. You better believe it would be headline stuff, and hell if we don't have a ready response for it. People's lives can be ruined because of misplaced laws, loopholes, etc. And I just wanted to know, actually, if we HAD a response to this. I guess that's a no. Lawmakers don't have time to ruminate like us. They're busy deciding who the guns belong to.

[Mesden]

If it really occurs, there'd be a massive moral debate, but as I see it, I'm not trying to kill the person -- it's not my fault, it's an entirely separate thing from my intention. It'd be some odd combination of Manslaughter and Duress (That's so contradictory that I want to cry), so I doubt the party that by merely existing killed someone else is responsible.

Like a choosing between a child or a mother, because only one's gonna live through the pregnancy or something. If the child's the one that comes through, I don't think there's gonna be some prosecution against the child for Duress+Manslaughter.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Toast

But this says nothing about how many homicides or other violent criminal acts were prevented by owning a gun. I read a couple of years ago that the number of deaths prevented by guns in the home may have been as much as 40,000. I can't find the source, but I'll keep looking.

Actually, from what I can tell, it says everything about how many homicides are prevented by owning a gun. Statistically speaking, you are 1.4 times more likely to be murdered if there's a gun in your house. That's a -140% homicide prevention rate, right there.

Also, I'm frankly quite tired of this whole "but if we illegalize owning a gun then only the criminals will have guns" argument. By that logic we should legalize heroin, anthrax, and child concubines, because only criminals have those, too. It's silly.

That said, I still think people should be allowed to own firearms. I think there should be some regulation of exactly what kind of firearm a private citizen can have access to, but I wouldn't be in favor of taking away all guns everywhere just because they're dangerous.

And yeah, repealing the right to bear arms is historically the first step toward toward total government dictatorship, as the public no longer has the ability to effectively rise up against oppressors when necessary.

Also, the majority of the US Supreme Court is made up of appointees from Republican administrations. Gun ownership isn't going anywhere.

[pictish]

Gun control threads always feel so weird, seeings how I've never had experience with guns, nor is gun just a day to day thing. I certainly didn't grow up being told having a gun was my right. Just a matter of geographical placement and all that.

I think it's clear the extremes being hinted at by both sides are undesirable (children with guns vs criminals strutting around like they own the place) but I think neither hideously likely to arise with some increase or decrease to gun control. I understand people love to have a means of defending themselves, but I'm also aware guns are to be stored safely somewhere secure away from the kids etc. I'm just not 100% certain when a burgler, pumped up with adrenline coming in it 4am clearly with a decided reason to do so is going to be chased off by hardly concious, just awoken gun owner who has to fanny around with the lock on some drawer (and the key's a pain to find with just that lamp on too). Perhaps it's a lack of personal mental capacity, but I cannot imagine having a gun in the house being some be all end all deterrent from criminals anymore than, say, having a big dog who while a pile of slobbery affection to the family is a proper loud snarling beast towards someone sneaking in at the dead of night. Not that I'd suggest we trade in guns for dogs, just that I can't see the whole 'burgler scared off by gun weilding law abiding citizen' thing that is brought up any time gun control is discussed.

As well as that, the other thing brought up with gun control every time - You are not going to stop a government revolution, though it pains me to crush the fantasy. Or at least, again, my mental powers fails to conjure a realistic image of average citizens many of whom may be entirely untrained with firearms taking a stand against a military totalitarian regime and nipping that in the bud. Perhaps I've missed something important, but again it seems highly unlikely to me that suddenly president so and so decides to overthrow America by force with whatever military and is thwarted by the common gun-wielding citizens uniting.

That said, I find it difficult to place where I think the right stuff is on gun control. I see valid points made both ways, though I'd say that ignoring hypotheticals and looking at modern America, I find it unlikely guns could realistically be controlled with how widely available they are. Not that I've any expertise on that, oh well.

By that logic we should legalize heroin

We so totally should legalise all drugs, but that looks dangerously like another topic.

[Magus]

Pssh, they'd have to go and collect the guns if they made it illegal. It's too late, people. We enjoy our freedom of owning the things already, suckers! HAHAHA! STOP ME NOW! But seriously, the people against gun control aren't going to go and turn in their guns to their local precinct or what have you, and criminals sure as heck ain't. Sure you can prevent LEGAL, NON-OFFENDERS from purchasing new guns in the future, I would suppose. If you're into that sort of idiocy.

"Actually, from what I can tell, it says everything about how many homicides are prevented by owning a gun. Statistically speaking, you are 1.4 times more likely to be murdered if there's a gun in your house. That's a -140% homicide prevention rate, right there."

Statistics often put the cart before the horse, though. I could easily say that the people who buy guns who are then murdered probably bought the guns because they live in an area with a high murder rate.

That's kind've like how they found a correlation (which they then claimed was causation) between a high death rate and giving CPR, and so then they tried to say that CPR seems to cause deaths when in fact the people who receive CPR are usually the people who are, you know, dying in the first place, so of course there will be a high death rate of people who've recieved CPR.

Take a sociology class and you'll see the magic world of statistics is only for correlation, not causation. Also watch the Penn and Teller: Bullshit! episode about gun control and how it is, well, Bullshit.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Magus

Also watch the Penn and Teller: Bullshit! episode about gun control and how it is, well, Bullshit.

So's the show a lot of the time. They make a lot of good points, but when someone makes a counterpoint, Penn Jillette comes on in voiceover and starts ranting about how the guy is crazy and full of shit and that we shouldn't listen to him because he's crazy and full of shit. This is done, mind you, while the person in question is actually making their point so the audience can't hear it.

It's an entertaining show, don't get me wrong, but it's not exactly an in-depth and unbiased analysis.

But yes, you're right. Statistics are about correlation, and there is noted correlation between having a gun in your house and being murdered. Each of those murders could very likely have had their own special and unique causes, but the correlation is still there.

I may not have had any sociology classes, but I did take statistics and at least have some idea how to interpret data.

[Seil]

I'm a bleeding heart liberal, I believe in the power of the People. It makes me sick to read some of the responses on this thread. To take away guns is to neuter and de-claw the People. To take away gun rights is to tip the scales in favor or criminals and make fascism a real possibility.

So... you have a gun for a penis and a rocket launcher for claws? You have rocket launcher claws? I'd say everyone is different - I mean look at Spiderman. In the Spiderman movie, the Sandman - Flint Marko - was a criminal and was hunted by the police. However, aside from accidentally killing Uncle Ben - which Spiderman forgave him for, he never tried to hurt anyone. The only reason he was after money was to pay for an operation for his daughter.

People all over are different. That includes criminals. Now, there are some people who will try to cause you harm, but I'm sure that the vast majority of criminals aren't trying to murder you and sell your liver on the black market.

No, that's not how rights work. Your rights stop right where another person's begins.

That was a way to make a counter point against Dem, it was not intended to be serious.

[Mesden]

It can't be a counterpoint if the premise is flawed.

Dear god I'm agreeing with Demetrius someone help me noooo. >.>