Homesuck: Vriska Rising

[Locke cole]

Originally Posted by BardTheFifthLightWarrior

This is the point. He intentionally made her to be a divisive character. The fact that there is any debate about her is what Hussie wanted, he has even said so. These Mary Sue traits were also intentional.

He never really said he personally adores or supports what Virska does at all, she's is sort of meant to seem that way though at quite a few times.

edit: Also, the trolls will die. Sollux already predicted it long ago, so unless dreamselves/revivals count, then Vriska is going down.

The problem would be if he ran with that to the detriment of the rest of the story.

Has it gotten to that point?

Damned if I know.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

...But why would Andrew Hussie intentionally want to create a bad character?

Because that's what you're really saying, there. Deliberately creating a Mary Sue isn't deliberately creating a character that's divisive, it's deliberately creating a character that is poorly written.

We're arguing about her, right? There are several sides to several arguments about her, right?

And honestly, the story doesn't paint her as totally justified and sympathetic in everything she does. Her arm and eye got blown off because she deserved it. She was haunted by ghosts because she deserved it. Aradia beat the shit out of her because she deserved it. She bled to death slowly because she deserved it. That is admittedly a bit mute after she went all got tier, but its not like there was no karmic payback. There is definitely some sympathy, but I would say that it isn't her overriding characteristic, its just what happens to be in focus for her at the moment.

Her introduction even began with calling her a bitch.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Krylo

Edit: I mean, shit, do you see me leaping down Arch's throat for saying she's annoying, or yours for this whole big thing?

No. Because I don't care. I don't care if no one else likes her in the world. I find her amusing, and I don't generally care about fictional characters enough to defend them.

What I CARE about is Fifth's constant thread shitting.

...Yeah, using you as a specific example there was a bad move on part, and one motivated less by anything you (specifically) have said or done and more motivated by the fact that I've seen similar, infinitely more hostile assholes on the MSPA forums utilize ad hominem arguments that appear somewhat similar in tone when condemning anyone who dares whisper that Andrew Hussie is anything less than a godlike beacon of perfection who shines upon the poor morasses of humanity.

EDIT: As for Vriska being divisive, authors who write well make their characters divisive without resorting to actually taking sides in the matter, effectively allowing readers to make their own judgments. The fact that Andrew frequently uses his Formspring and slants dialogue in Homestuck itself to clearly and unequivocably advance his own interpretation of just how "amazing Vriska is" somewhat undercuts this argument. There's no real "debate" to be had when the author clearly wants you to feel sympathy and like his precious Mary Sue. The problem is really that he hasn't written Vriska in a way to ensure that all readers ascribe to his opinions of her lofty status, and then he gets angry at us (his readers) for daring to disagree with his preferred interpretation.

Let me say this much: Despite what authors can do to influence a character's perception, ultimately, a character is judged not by the author himself but by its readers. George Lucas can intend to write Anakin Skywalker into a badass, but in the prequels he failed, and his viewers would not deserve Lucas' admonitions due to his own failures to capture Anakin as he wished. Similarly, Andrew clearly wants everyone to root for Vriska and to tolerate or even adore her for her massive influence in the story, but his writing of her character has not merited that reaction (in my opinion), and instead of responding to criticism by writing Vriska well (in my opinion), Andrew's responded by lashing out at anyone who dares tell him that they think Vriska isn't as intriguing and likable and multidimensional as he thinks she is (in my opinion.)

[Bard The 5th LW]

EDIT: As for Vriska being divisive, authors who write well make their characters divisive without resorting to actually taking sides in the matter, effectively allowing readers to make their own judgments. The fact that Andrew frequently uses his Formspring and slants dialogue in Homestuck itself to clearly and unequivocably advance his own interpretation of just how "amazing Vriska is" somewhat undercuts this argument. There's no real "debate" to be had when the author clearly wants you to feel sympathy and like his precious Mary Sue. The problem is really that he hasn't written Vriska in a way to ensure that all readers ascribe to his opinions of her lofty status, and then he gets angry at us (his readers) for daring to disagree with his preferred interpretation.

Let me say this much: Despite what authors can do to influence a character's perception, ultimately, a character is judged not by the author himself but by its readers. George Lucas can intend to write Anakin Skywalker into a badass, but in the prequels he failed, and his viewers would not deserve Lucas' admonitions due to his own failures to capture Anakin as he wished. Similarly, Andrew clearly wants everyone to root for Vriska and to tolerate or even adore her for her massive influence in the story, but his writing of her character has not merited that reaction, and instead of responding by writing Vriska well, Andrew's responded by lashing out at anyone who dares tell him that they think Vriska isn't as intriguing and likable and multidimensional as he thinks she is.

Can you show me some particular examples of Andrew saying we are supposed to root for Vriska?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass oranything. If you can direct me to a few formspring answers or forum posts by Andrew that flat out state that Vriska is a good person we should love, then I'll accept your argument.

[Loyal]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

and she's also the very TV Tropes definition of a Mary Sue,

I should note that the TV Tropes definition of Mary Sue applies specifically to Fanfic. Canon Sue is for Vriska. Other than that, carry on. Your posts are exactly what I was talking about earlier.

This is the point. He intentionally made her to be a divisive character. The fact that there is any debate about her is what Hussie wanted, he has even said so. These Mary Sue traits were also intentional.

He never really said he personally adores or supports what Virska does at all, she's is sort of meant to seem that way though at quite a few times.

Like I said elsewhere, this is a really shitty point to make. Her being "a divisive character designed to infuriate the readers" does not make discussion about how divisive she is or how infuriating she is any less valid. It's like if someone draws a shitty comic and says "I already know everything I did wrong with this comic, so don't bother saying anything."

edit: Also, the trolls will die. Sollux already predicted it long ago, so unless dreamselves/revivals count, then Vriska is going down.

Of course they count. Sollux even said he'd be dying twice. And there's no reason (especially in prophecy) why a revival would discount the fact that notdream-Vriska died.

[edit] You guys post too damn fast. D:

[Bard The 5th LW]

Terezi's "luck means nothing" line really just gives me the feeling that Vriska is going down for the count. Maybe some will survive, what with John reaching the Scratch all cheery, but Vriska is pretty much being set up to fail incredibly. Although I guess you have a point Loyal, the reamining one's may survive.

edit: Although, Tavros died twice as well going by the dreamself argument. So did Fef, Nepeta, Equius, Kanaya?, and any other victim so far. If we do go by the dreamself thing though, then Sollux has already died twice and is pretty much safe as far as the near future goes.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by BardTheFifthLightWarrior

Can you show me some particular examples of Andrew saying we are supposed to root for Vriska?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass or anything. If you can direct me to a few formspring answers or forum posts by Andrew that flat out state that Vriska is a good person we should love, then I'll accept your argument.

Sadly they're pretty much all on the old Formspring account, which has apparently been axed.
It was never really a single moment where he was like "Guys, I absolutely adore Vriska." Moreso his typical snarky and selective responses to the most poorly worded possible criticisms of the whole "Vriska being responsible for everything from Jade's excessive sleeping to the Bec Noir prototyping" developments way back when all that was revealed, and later around the time she axed Tavros.

And yeah, I did intend Canon Sue (and actually used it correctly, one time,) but I tend to refer to Canon Sues as Mary Sues because that terminology is just simpler, and I never really talk about fanfiction anyway.

[IHateMakingNames]

Mostly unrelated, but I saw it mentioned. Vriska isn't responsible for anything that the kids have done. Regardless of what the trolls do, the things that happen to the kids will happen. She is merely putting herself in directly to claim credit, even though it was already going to happen.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by BardTheFifthLightWarrior

Terezi's "luck means nothing" line really just gives me the feeling that Vriska is going down for the count. Maybe some will survive, what with John reaching the Scratch all cheery, but Vriska is pretty much being set up to fail incredibly. Although I guess you have a point Loyal, the reamining one's may survive.

I'm guessing against Jack after John gets through, but I could be wrong.

I'm also guessing that if she somehow DOESN'T die it will be John's doing.

Also, it will come with a con-air montage of some sort either way.

Originally Posted by IHateMakingNames

Mostly unrelated, but I saw it mentioned. Vriska isn't responsible for anything that the kids have done. Regardless of what the trolls do, the things that happen to the kids will happen. She is merely putting herself in directly to claim credit, even though it was already going to happen.

That's what SHE thinks, but she's wrong. It's a stable time loop. She's as culpable for the creation of Jack, as Jack is culpable for making her think it would be a good idea to create him. She created Bec, saved Jade's life, and thus caused the kids to get into the session, which then created Jack by prototyping with Bec and the scratch that put Jack through to the troll universe, that convinced her to...

To go back to the Xanatos thing, David Xanatos travelled back in time, got a coin, mailed it to himself in the future, thus making himself rich, being rich he used his money an resources to more or less enslave Puck and then raise the Gargoyles, who then brought the Phoenix Medallion into his hands and forcing him back in time, where he then attained the coin which he mailed to himself in the future.

Same ridiculous thing. They're both entirely culpable for the story as it stands.

[Aldurin]

BLUH BLUH HUGE ARGUMENT

And here you guys got me panicked with all of these new posts and the fact that the MSPA site had problems. I thought I was missing out on a huge update.