Homesuck: Vriska Rising

[Viridis]

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0

I'm with that the clock didn't actually have anything to do with judging a Just or Heroic death, only keeping track of it. The Session itself makes the judgement. Why would the Troll session clock in the possession of the Troll session First Guardian be able to judge John? The logic doesn't follow.

Hussie is deciding not to answer this. I think he's doing this to leave it ambiguous whether her actions actually made her death Just or not. At least for now.

[Marc v4.0]

I choose to believe her death was due to the circumstances of her choices, and not some random clock abuse.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0

I'm with that the clock didn't actually have anything to do with judging a Just or Heroic death, only keeping track of it. The Session itself makes the judgement. Why would the Troll session clock in the possession of the Troll session First Guardian be able to judge John? The logic doesn't follow.

We were never shown where the clock was until it was judging Vriska. You're making an assumption that there is only one clock in the Troll session and not another in the kids' session that is still working fine.

Why would a clock in the troll session in the possession of the troll session first guardian even be keeping track of John? He's in an entirely different universe.

[Dracorion]

Personally, I'm choosing to believe that Scratch wouldn't involve himself with events to the point where he would own a clock that decides whether a God Tier lives or dies, because that would effectively make him responsible.

[Marc v4.0]

Well, Scratch is the one with the Clocks 'thing' going on, why wouldn't it be the same clock? Considering his nature, It is more simple for the clock to be just a observation tool that he can focus on a subject then a coincidental copy of one in a different session that coincidentally is owned by a guy that has time-based minions and clock-related deco.

Hell, he has a model of the Kid's battlefield. Did you happen to forget that?

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0

Well, Scratch is the one with the Clocks 'thing' going on, why wouldn't it be the same clock? Considering his nature, It is more simple for the clock to be just a observation tool that he can focus on a subject then a coincidental copy of one in a different session that coincidentally is owned by a guy that has time-based minions and clock-related deco.

Hell, he has a model of the Kid's battlefield. Did you happen to forget that?

Each session contains many things that are exactly the same.

And where's the copy of the kid's battlefield? 'Cause I don't remember that at all. I know he has a model of A battlefield, but I don't remember it being specified as either session's. And the battlefield, much like prospit and derse, should look exactly the same between sessions.

Also, why assume there is a guy owning it? If there were it'd probably be Jade's Grandpa, but there's no reason to assume such.

In every session things play out very similarly and the exact same things are around as created by SBurb. Every session has Prospit and Derse. Every session has a battlefield that looks like a giant chess board + geomap. Every session has a black king, black queen, white king, and white queen. Every session has a Jack Noir. Every session has a forge. Every...

Well you're getting the idea.

You're making a pretty large assumption by deciding that there is only one god tier clock and it's only in the Troll session. Regardless of its exact effects: whether watching or actively judging.

FURTHER Why would Scratch need a clock? He's omniscient. He'd know if a god tier was going to die justly or not. The only purpose for all his models and what not is showing things to guests. Not so much for his own use.

Edit: It is also very odd, if the Clock only had the effect of watching, that Vriska died immediately after Jack broke the clock.

[Marc v4.0]

I assumed it was the Kid's battlefield, but it could be the trolls or just a model. Fair enough.

Every session doesn't have a Cue-ball headed Guardian with an obession for Time and a mansion full of CLOCKS and tools for viewing and communicating. I'm unconvinced that has nothing at all to do with him owning a CLOCK that either judges or shows God Tier death.

Why would he need 1000 clocks to begin with? Why are you ignoring the very thing he has made sure to hammer at us every time he talks to someone else or us? He doesn't know everything. He has particular blank spots when it comes to the game and how it works beyond the scope of what he needs to facilitate his purpose. It is completely plausable that he really doesn't know.

Jack's action having anything to do with Vriska's death was, as Viridis pointed out, left ambiguous even from word of god.

I remain unonvinced that it had any bearing, much like breaking a real clock doesn't stop time. Having that sort of power laying around in the same universe as a crowbar that could completely destroy it for everyone involved seems unlikely.

edit: Having read Hussie's FS response, I am now convinced he just wants people to argue over it. The Jerk.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0

It is completely plausable that he really doesn't know.

Not really. God Tiers die under very specific dramatic circumstances. It shouldn't be hard for a guy who knows more or less everything about how a session operates to be able to tell whether or not certain circumstances allow for a Just or Heroic death.

For our part, on the other hand, we have no idea what Just means. We can make guesses based on the word, like any death for Vriska would be Just because she was kind of a terrible person. Or we can make guesses based on the way it was presented to us in the first place as God Tiers needing to die dramatically either Justly or Heroically (which has also been painted as the idea in other cases where characters suggested that John's eventual death would be a 'more fitting end for a god tier character', and John's death being 'heroic' in that it happened standing up to a great villain in retribution for the death of his parents and in defense of his friend, but simply not dramatic enough in that he got ganked in half a second). In which case we might judge that as that Vriska was not being a villain right at that moment and died rather anticlimactically that it wasn't a fitting death for a God Tier character. One may even argue that it wasn't a just death ethically because of this or that blah blah balh.

Either way the entire thing is pretty ambiguous to us, but really shouldn't be to someone like Scratch. He KNOWS the rules. Whether Just is decided by a character's past actions, their current actions, the motivations of who killed them, and whether a dramatic component is required, and whether Vriska's past actions/current actions/Terezi's motivations were enough to contribute to a Just death. Scratch understanding these mechanics well enough to tell us about them, and to make judgements as to whether John would survive, but to not know whether Vriska would have survived had the clock been left alone is a pretty spurious claim.

Jack's action having anything to do with Vriska's death was, as Viridis pointed out, left ambiguous even from word of god.

Which means that for the moment it's up in the air and both of our theories are basically valid.

But discussion has never been particularly EVIL has it?

And I still find the timing of the clock being smashed and Vriska's 'DEAD' to be pretty spurious, ambiguous word of god or not. Ambiguity does not mean he was denying that Jack breaking the clock ended Vriska, it means he was refusing to comment for the time being because he thinks it would be a spoiler and/or make the story less interesting if he just told us.

I remain unonvinced that it had any bearing, much like breaking a real clock doesn't stop time.

But this is a pretty silly argument considering who owned the clock, the build of the clock, and that clocks that CAN stop/reverse time are pretty heavily prevalent in fiction.

Having that sort of power laying around in the same universe as a crowbar that could completely destroy it for everyone involved seems unlikely.

I don't see why. All it does is mean there's more than one way to kill a god tier. You can murder them in a dramatically appropriate fashion, or you can find the clock that controls their reincarnation and break it and then murder them/murder them and then break the clock before they respawn.

There's more than one way to become god tier, and Word of God says we haven't even seen them all (though we've seen two). Heck, there's multiple ways to do MOST things in Sburb. Why wouldn't there be more than one way to kill a god tier character?

Also, you're making another assumption as to the number of god tier clocks again. For all we know there may be a near identical resurrection clock for every possible god tier character, and the breaking of that clock may have had an effect on Vriska without having effects on any other god tier characters.

Or it may be the only one! And maybe Aradia is much less immortal now. Or maybe you're right and there's no real affect either way. Or maybe there are multiple, but they're all simply watching their specific god tiered characters and don't actually affect the resurrection. Who knows!

Having read Hussie's FS response, I am now convinced he just wants people to argue over it. The Jerk.

I think he just wants people to think about it and talk about it because that seems more fun/interesting than proving any side wrong right off the bat.

I kind of agree.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

It's either the same clock or a very similar clock that's in the same place.
http://www.mspaintadventures.com/scr...p?s=6&p=005751
http://mspaintadventures.com/scratch.php?s=6&p=005760

Between strokes of the pendulum, the clock is Green. Like everything else in Scratch's home and the Felt Mansion.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Lurking on the MSPA forums, and there is a bit of Terezi hate getting thrown around.