Homesuck: Vriska Rising

[Solid Snake]

Articulating Dirk's plan with the robot as a plan to turn Jake gay just doesn't make any sense to me. Feels vaguely homophobic. Even conceding that Dirk is manipulative and conniving and arrogant and selfish, he couldn't force a new sexual identity upon Jake. The fact that Jake ultimately agreed to a relationship with Dirk, even one that was simply temporary, suggests that Jake was bisexual, or at least bicurious, from the beginning. Dirk has his issues, but I don't perceive him as someone who'd take pleasure in coercing Jake into a relationship against his will, and many of the photos of Jake and Dirk in 'happier times' immediately after the session began seem to support that their affection was at one point consensual, and that Jake only gradually lost interest as Dirk became increasingly clingy.

I also don't perceive Jake as being mentally disabled; he's just a straight-up insensitive douche, and he's been insensitive and douchey around all three of his friends, including Dirk. If anything it's likely a byproduct of his Jade-style alone-on-an-island secluded upbringing, and a Yosuke-like identification of himself as the 'hero' of his own 'adventure,' in which through the narrow gaze of a protagonist of his chosen narrative he can readily dismiss the feelings of others.

[Locke cole]

the reference to his mind not being the steel trap it once was is just, you know, general "man, I feel like such an ass for forgetting" rhetoric.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Articulating Dirk's plan with the robot as a plan to turn Jake gay just doesn't make any sense to me. Feels vaguely homophobic. Even conceding that Dirk is manipulative and conniving and arrogant and selfish, he couldn't force a new sexual identity upon Jake.

Dirk is a 16 year old. This is basically the exact kind of insane logic a 16 year old would cook up. Surely you've heard of the Nice Guy problem, which among several other problems carries the idea of "making" someone love you with extended coercive behavior? This is basically a similar thought process.

Also I'm fairly certain there's a convo between Dirk and AR where he flat-up admits that Novice Mode was explicitly for the purpose of making Jake think of him as more than a friend.

The fact that Jake ultimately agreed to a relationship with Dirk, even one that was simply temporary, suggests that Jake was bisexual, or at least bicurious, from the beginning.

Which is probably true but also independent of the whole brobot clusterfuck.

Dirk has his issues, but I don't perceive him as someone who'd take pleasure in coercing Jake into a relationship against his will, and many of the photos of Jake and Dirk in 'happier times' immediately after the session began seem to support that their affection was at one point consensual, and that Jake only gradually lost interest as Dirk became increasingly clingy.

Thing is though that literally everything about Dirk and Jake's relationship is rooted in coercion on at least some level. He forced the whole uncomfortableness of the Brobot on him and then there was the whole "kiss my severed head or literally all of your friends are going to die" situation that he probably could have handled better. It would still be creepy as fuck no matter what the genders involved were.

E: Also remember that when Jake brought up that the brobot was making him very uncomfortable, Dirk's reaction basically was "Okay then, instead of tenderness I'm going to make it beat the everliving fuck out of you." This is an actual thing that happened.

Originally Posted by Locke cole

the reference to his mind not being the steel trap it once was is just, you know, general "man, I feel like such an ass for forgetting" rhetoric.

I would think that if it wasn't for the other evidence plus the fact that Jake's douchiest behaviors are post-time-skip, after the potential incident that may have fucked his head up.

[Solid Snake]

Also I'm fairly certain there's a convo between Dirk and AR where he flat-up admits that Novice Mode was explicitly for the purpose of making Jake think of him as more than a friend.

I was also fairly certain that there were conversations back there where Dirk conceded that it was possible, even probable, that he'd be rejected by Jake once he revealed his crush, and that fear had motivated a lot of his behavior. I just always viewed Dirk's struggles there as less about trying to coerce Jake -- and play into unrealistic homophobic fears in such an inappropriate way -- and more about Dirk confronting his own vulnerabilities and having to eventually 'fess up.

Yeah, by virtue of Dirk being manipulative and overthinking things, there were elements where Dirk might try to increase his 'odds' by setting up the perfect moment for the reveal, but I still think at the end of the day, if Dirk proposes a relationship and Jake says no, Dirk respects that decision and doesn't force the issue.

Dirk comes from a future wherein heterosexuality as a social 'default' is an antiquated concept. That might also play into things. I dunno, I just dislike a summation that vilifies Dirk for 'making Jake gay,' as it assumes a 'default' heterosexual identity for Jake that privileged readers often assume, and it buys into hella-bad stereotypical fears, and I think there's moral principles even Dirk adheres to, despite his various teenage insecurities and flaws and shortcomings.

Thing is though that literally everything about Dirk and Jake's relationship is rooted in coercion on at least some level. He forced the whole uncomfortableness of the Brobot on him and then there was the whole "kiss my severed head or literally all of your friends are going to die" situation that he probably could have handled better. It would still be creepy as fuck no matter what the genders involved were.

First: Kissing a severed head is supposed to be romantic?
Second: A lot of people in Homestuck have kissed other people's corpses. Karkat kissed Kanaya's corpse. John kissed Rose's corpse, I think? I don't perceive kissing Dirk's dismembered head as anything akin to a romantic gesture, as represented by the fact that everyone, Jake included, were all kind of collectively grossed out by it, and the whole joke at the end was that everyone watched Jake do it.

At most you might say that Dirk, being the mastermind of the plan to bail 'em all out, preferred that his crush be the one to kiss him. And that's probably true, but that still doesn't explain that incident as a sole impetus for their relationship.

[Locke cole]

Originally Posted by stefan

E: Also remember that when Jake brought up that the brobot was making him very uncomfortable, Dirk's reaction basically was "Okay then, instead of tenderness I'm going to make it beat the everliving fuck out of you." This is an actual thing that happened.

That was AR.

[stefan]

Yeah snake I think you might be focusing entirely too much on an offhand descriptor here, try and forget any genderpolitics and sexual identity issues for a minute and just consider the bare facts, that:

- one character has set up a situation that is, basically, sexual assault by proxy targeting another character

- this is enforced by extreme violence if the second character expresses dislike or tries to avoid this situation

- At a later date after a relationship has been going on, The first character has been expressing extreme obsessive behavior towards the second

- when the second character tries to get some space in this situation and consider ending it, the first reacts with extreme hostility.

Dirk is pretty clearly in the wrong here and the entire relationship is unhealthy. Maybe it could get un-fucked-up later but it would require Dirk to actually grow as a person significantly, so

[Locke cole]

But the extreme violence was the intention of the robot on both sides of the exchange. The level of wrestling proweess of the robot was underestimaed by Jake, to be sure, and the Novice setting was skechy as all hell, true.

And Jake getting some spce was expressed as him pretty much vanishing for days at a time. From everyone, no just Dirk.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by stefan

- one character has set up a situation that is, basically, sexual assault by proxy targeting another character

- this is enforced by extreme violence if the second character expresses dislike or tries to avoid this situation

It's programmed to Jake's specifications, with aspects of Dirk's own personality programmed into it. This wasn't part of some sort of fiendish plot to manipulate Jake into being gay for him, the brobot becoming "a bit tender for [Jake's] liking" was it acting on the subconscious impulses that Dirk didn't even want to admit to.

- At a later date after a relationship has been going on, The first character has been expressing extreme obsessive behavior towards the second

Dirk was becoming desperate due to being ignored for long periods by his boyfriend and was becoming distraught.

- when the second character tries to get some space in this situation and consider ending it, the first reacts with extreme hostility.

Completely merited hostility because Jake had been avoiding him due to not having the courage to just outright end it or even talk about the problem, and it wasn't even extreme. It was pretty much a totally understandable amount of anger given the situation and the treatment he'd received.

Like, I've been sick of Dirk for a while but these complaints aren't even based in anything resembling reality, and no I don't think Snake needs to "forget any genderpolitics and sexual identity issues for a minute" because you're still essentially insisting that Dirk somehow "turned Jake gay," which is unbelievably offensive.

[Bard The 5th LW]

To say that Dirk turned Jake gay is honestly pretty dumb. It seems obvious that Jake is just bi-curious in my opinion, he even said to Jane that he had considered a relationship with Dirk for a while. Like, to suggest that was the situation when it wasnt in any way is more offensive than any story portrayal I think.

While he definitely hasn't handled things to the best of the ability, I wouldn't really fault Jake for the way he treats his friends. He grew up on a fucking island, thats not a lot of good for his social skills. Furthermore, all of his friends have a crush on him and it has been demonstrated that he's at least subconsciously aware of this on all fronts. That's a probably a pretty stressful thing to deal with, especially if you're a teenager as teenagers aren't exactly renowned for their ability to handle stress. So, just shutting people out when he doesnt know how to act towards them was likely a reasonable solution to him.

[Arcanum]

So hey, update. Oh, and Snake, I'm pretty sure this flash doesn't end. Just a heads up