Homesuck: Vriska Rising

[Loyal]

I guess she could mind control him into it instead of asking but then you'd just be here calling it horrifying that she made him kill her.

Not really, no.

It's not so much the asking to be killed part that's terrible.

It's entirely possible that Tavros never killed a single thing during SGrub (Tinkerbull notwithstanding), merely continuing to use his powers of Communion to have the underlings work for him. He's certainly never killed another troll before, obviously he'd have difficulty starting now. Given Troll society, I rather doubt Trolls have a concept of a "mercy kill" (or "mercy" itself), so there's also that.

I believe the worst part of it is, however, that she was continuing to mind control him so she can scream at him for not doing it, to the extent that he's bleeding from his own goddamn fingers and writing with his own blood, but wouldn't mind control him to the extent required to actually perform the deed. Regardless of her request, she was still trying to force him to do it. She never had any intention of giving him a choice in the matter, only in maintaining enough of an illusion of free will for ... whatever purpose. Perhaps she was trying to turn him into a more remorseless killer, to change him to better reflect her ideal.

And then she has the gall to give him shit about it later.

[Archbio]

Her dream self is bleeding too, and from her expression it's pretty obvious that she's not enjoying what is happening to it.

How can you tell?

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by Archbio

How can you tell?

This is how

Originally Posted by Loyal

And then she has the gall to give him shit about it later.

I knowwww, right?

[Archbio]

This is how

I really mostly read that as active mental strain on her part.

She's shutting the exile out of her mind while at the same time making Tavros write more and more stuff. I'm not saying she's not stressed, but it seems wrong somehow that she'd go from the wounds of her real body being painless to her dream body (first expression) to having a seizure from them, while the only change she seems to have gone through is more blood loss. And even then the mechanics of the whole thing are vague.

[Loyal]

Originally Posted by Premmy

This is how

That looked more like anger (at Snowman, Tavros, whatever) than distress to me.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Loyal

I rather doubt Trolls have a concept of a "mercy kill" (or "mercy" itself), so there's also that.

"8ut do it fast, ok?

Please don't make me 8leed to death slowly."

Nope. Not asking for a mercy kill at all.

I believe the worst part of it is, however, that she was continuing to mind control him so she can scream at him for not doing it, to the extent that he's bleeding from his own goddamn fingers and writing with his own blood

Because it's the only way she can communicate with him and she's freaking out because she can feel herself dying, and I can't imagine it's a pleasant experience given the way she looks past the first time she tells him to do it.

but wouldn't mind control him to the extent required to actually perform the deed.

And if she had you'd/Wigmund/Fifth would be calling her a horrible monster for forcing Tavros to kill her. It's a no win situation for her. The only way you lot wouldn't leap on her in this situation is if she just died in pain quietly. Which, considering she's like 12 or 13 is a little much to expect even if this was one of the trolls who hasn't been completely selfish the entire game. It's certainly something that can not be expected from Vriska.

The only difference would be I wouldn't have disagreed that it was particularly bitchy, someone would have pointed out that having the guy who is completely against violence off his 'friend' was a horrible psychologically traumatizing thing to do, instead of Fifth pointing out that it's psychologically traumatizing to ask him to do it repeatedly.

Which it would be, even though he's the only one there to do it.

And which this is, even though he's the only one there to do it.

But, again, this is a situation where no one is exactly coming out without some kind of trauma. If she had forced him to do it, would it have left him feeling better? Would it have left him feeling worse? Is having her dream self rupture and bleed slowly while someone screams at her from beyond the pall that she should take his will any less psychologically traumatizing?

What could she have done, realistically, that would have satiated you in this situation?

I'm not disagreeing that it was harmful to Tavros. What I am disagreeing with is that freaking out when you're dying painfully because the only one who could possibly make it less painful refuses to do anything is somehow a horrible evil act.

Especially one that even BEGINS to compare with every other thing that Vriska has done.

"A Vriska did it" may be annoying, but it's not half as annoying as everyone throwing a bitch fit whenever she does anything at all ever.

She could pet a puppy and I swear someone would find a way to paint her as the worst person in the world because she petted a puppy.

She may be the worst person in the world, but this is not the reason. This doesn't even contribute to it.

Regardless of her request, she was still trying to force him to do it. She never had any intention of giving him a choice in the matter, only in maintaining enough of an illusion of free will for ... whatever purpose. Perhaps she was trying to turn him into a more remorseless killer, to change him to better reflect her ideal.

If she were really trying to make him do it, he wouldn't have flown away without doing it.

She wanted him to make a choice. It's been shown throughout the series that, as selfish as Vriska is, she has some level of something resembling remorse. She wanted Tavros and Terezi to be stronger for what she did to them. To overcome it and be better in the end. It's Terezi who said this earlier on, the sage of mind and all.

She was hoping that he was strong enough to do what needed to be done without her forcing him to do it, now. She was wrong and she is disappointed in him.

And then she has the gall to give him shit about it later.

It is so terrible to give someone shit about leaving you to die slowly and in pain. That hasn't been dealt with in OTHER works of contemporary fiction or anything. It's never been shown to be morally reprehensible to do that, or anything.

I get that it isn't easy for Tavros, however this isn't exactly Vriska being a huge bitch here. This is Vriska dying slowly, and you can see by the way her expression changes between the smile that Archbio linked to the look of frantic panic that she has later as he refuses to kill her, that she's, you know, in pain.

Not to mention her dream self also being covered by her own blood.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Archbio

I really mostly read that as active mental strain on her part.

She's shutting the exile out of her mind while at the same time making Tavros write more and more stuff. I'm not saying she's not stressed, but it seems wrong somehow that she'd go from the wounds of her real body being painless to her dream body (first expression) to having a seizure from them, while the only change she seems to have gone through is more blood loss. And even then the mechanics of the whole thing are vague.

Bleeding to death is painless.

Edit 2:
The mechanics:

Originally Posted by Hussie

There are only two ways we know of that the dream self can serve as an extra life.

1) The corpse must be kissed by a prince or princess. (Please note, they are technically all princes/princesses of their respective moons.)

2) The player must die on their quest bed/cocoon, in which case their dream self takes over while upgrading to god tier on the battlefield.

The dream self also takes on the critical wounds sustained by the real self, but in a delayed fashion. Note how dream John began bleeding a little while after he was stabbed. These wounds are healed upon resurrection.

Presumably the dream self will eventually die from the same wounds inflicted on the real self, but after a time delay. This would suggest the player has a pretty brief time limit to complete their resurrection.

We've only seen three examples of this. John and Vriska, who both died on the quest bed/cocoon, so the time limit didn't matter.

Sollux was also resurrected after being kissed by Feferi. This means after he died, she made the trip between her world and his in QUITE A HURRY.

[Loyal]

Nope. Not asking for a mercy kill at all.

Yeah, okay.

And if she had you'd/Wigmund/Fifth would be calling her a horrible monster for forcing Tavros to kill her. It's a no win situation for her. The only way you lot wouldn't leap on her in this situation is if she just died in pain quietly.

Originally Posted by Loyal

Not really, no.

Please don't put words in my mouth, kaythanx.

given the way she looks past the first time she tells him to do it.

Again, that looks more like anger to me. Yes, she's in pain and her life is in danger, but as I recall stuff like that never stopped her from getting her bad self on.

instead of Fifth pointing out that it's psychologically traumatizing to ask him to do it repeatedly.

She wasn't asking. I reiterate that she was never giving him a choice in the matter, and pretending like he had one was just cruel.

What could she have done, realistically, that would have satiated you in this situation?

It's kind of a "point of no return" deal for her, here.

(Stuff leading up to...)

She may be the worst person in the world, but this is not the reason. This doesn't even contribute to it.

It's a continuation of a prior contribution to her worst-person-in-the-world status, namely the shit she's been putting Tavros through since day one. Vriska jumped him off a cliff, Vriska tormented him during the housebuilding shenanigans, Vriska tried to get him to love her during a period where he believed (and probably still does) that she was the single most terrifying being ever to cast a shadow over the universe, and now this. It's like, give the boy a fuckin' br8k, hey Vriska?

On its own, yeah, this isn't a particularly helpful contribution to her trophy collection. But her continued abuse of Tavros and the fact that she never changed once during the entirety of the comic is worth something. Stuff like this does a fantastic job reminding the audience of it.

It is so terrible to give someone shit about leaving you to die slowly and in pain.

We all know Vriska well enough to know that she's not giving him shit for leaving her for dead, so much as giving him shit for failing to act how she wanted/expected him to. At best, if she's giving him shit about the left-for-dead bit it's because his inaction could conceivably have endangered her god-tier ascension before they knew enough about the ascension to know that wouldn't be an issue.

I get that it isn't easy for Tavros, however this isn't exactly Vriska being a huge bitch here. This is Vriska dying slowly,

Vriska's doing a damn good job being the former while doing the latter.

[Locke cole]

As Hussie said in the formspring, the dreamself wounds are delayed. She probably went from not quite noticing them to being overwhelmed by the steadily growing pain.

You know, it's interesting. In both trying to kiss, and trying to kill Vriska, Tavros always seems to be a bit late in being ready to do what she once wanted him to do.

I can't compete with the rant directly above me (edit: I mean two posts above me), but I do want to say something. The whole situation was basically a no-win situation for Tavros as well. Whatever he did and whatever Vriska did, there was no way he was getting out of that situation unscarred. If he'd killed her, then our resident pacifist would have to deal with that, probably without too much moral support from Vriska (or maybe she would've supported him: I can't quite get into Vriska's head enough to figure out how her attitude towards Tavros would've changed). If she'd manipul8ed him into killing her directly, then he still would've been traumatized. It's not like he can't see what he's doing when that happens. And the scenario that happened, him being made to write until he was writing with his own blood, clearly did a number on him, to the point where he chose to escape from reality by sleeping the rest of the session away.

If it is true that there was no way for certain fans to not see Vriska's actions here as reprehensible, a lot of it has to do with the fact that any outcome would've been bad for Tavros.

As for me, I'm no longer sure what I think of Vriska's actions, though I am leaning towards not approving, probably since this scenario seems premeditated on Vriska's part. I mean, obviously, she wasn't quite expecting a murderous Aradia, but it looks like she had a scenario like this planned, with Tavros as the one to kill her, because she had planned to reach the god tiers, powergamer that she is. It looks like she was trying to groom Tavros into something he's really not, and both of them suffered for it.

[Kim]

She wasn't asking. I reiterate that she was never giving him a choice in the matter, and pretending like he had one was just cruel.

That he was able to run away from a girl capable of controlling his mind says pretty much outright that yes he did indeed have a choice. If he didn't she could have stopped him.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Loyal

Again, that looks more like anger to me. Yes, she's in pain and her life is in danger, but as I recall stuff like that never stopped her from getting her bad self on.

Angry Vriska has never been frantic or panicked. She has simply been heartless and vicious.

This was not angry Vriska because angry Vriska doesn't act anything like what she just acted like. Angry Vriska wouldn't have repeated herself. Angry Vriska wouldn't have made the words progressively larger, progressively more pleading.

Angry Vriska doesn't plead at all. Angry Vriska doesn't freak out. Angry Vriska doesn't mentally scream in pain at someone she's controlling (see: Tavros writing out a 'aaaa' scream).

This was in pain and freaking out Vriska.

She wasn't asking. I reiterate that she was never giving him a choice in the matter, and pretending like he had one was just cruel.

She did, though. Again, if she hadn't intended to give him a choice, she wouldn't have been in that much pain, that much distress. She would have just had him stab her.

There's no reason, beyond giving him a choice, beyond giving him the chance to be strong like she wanted him to be, to not just make him stab her.

We all know Vriska well enough to know that she's not giving him shit for leaving her for dead, so much as giving him shit for failing to act how she wanted/expected him to.

If by 'fail to act how she wanted/expected him to' you mean 'leaving her to die slowly instead of ending it quick and painlessly' then I suppose we are in agreement?

Also: Look up. She was in immense pain. She was smiling at first and then looking horrible because Dream Self injuries are delayed. As he failed to kill her, she suffered every injury Aradia just dealt to her all over again. Only slower.

At best, if she's giving him shit about the left-for-dead bit it's because his inaction could conceivably have endangered her god-tier ascension before they knew enough about the ascension to know that wouldn't be an issue.

I don't believe this is the case for a second, but I feel I should point out that if it WERE it would leave your case even weaker.

Her options were two-fold (after stopping Tavros from kissing her): Be resurrected as god tier, or be dead.

If she didn't know him not killing her on the bed might lead to her not being resurrected it only makes her freak out even more justified as she's also coping with the possibility of ACTUALLY dying in that case.