Homesuck: Vriska Rising

[Specterbane]

Originally Posted by InsaneGenius

The boo-hoo fanboy rage thing was not in reference to the Vriska debate, but about the fact, that whenever I entered the thread I had to read at least one post whining about the recent direction Homestuck has taken, while I can actually understand those people to a degree, and in some cases even agree, I don't have to hear the same complaints from the same person over and over again expressed in the most annoying from they can come up with. If I'm the only one in the slightest annoyed by this, then please tell me, and I'll shut up.
.

Agreed. Can we please just end it with all of these and move on to talking about the story?

There's enough there even if we avoid she who must not be named anymore, like Matchsticks being around and not deceased like it was said he was in the intermission. Or the mysterious had grabbing more scotty dogs. Either of those seem like great topics of discussion.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by InsaneGenius

If I'm the only one in the slightest annoyed by this, then please tell me, and I'll shut up.

Naw, we cool, dawg.

We cool.

Originally Posted by Specterbane

There's enough there even if we avoid she who must not be named anymore, like Matchsticks being around and not deceased like it was said he was in the intermission. Or the mysterious had grabbing more scotty dogs. Either of those seem like great topics of discussion.

That's the real story anyway since technically Scratch is just making all this up as he goes. I mean, unflappable as he might be, it is questionable that Vriska turned into a pirate the moment he got up and ran to pull the fire alarm.

As for the mysterious black hand, how does Snowman feel about scottie dogs?

[Loyal]

Originally Posted by Specterbane

Or the mysterious had grabbing more scotty dogs. Either of those seem like great topics of discussion.

There is no mystery. Motherfucker loves his scottie dogs.

[e] Like, he has a mystical sense to direct him to the nearest bunch of scottie dogs and he will run into a building he himself just set on fire to obtain them.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by CelesJessa

Out of curiosity, could we possibly tone down on the VRISKA IS A TERRIBLE CHARACTER AND HUSSIE IS TERRIBLE FOR MAKING HER UP AND YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD FOR LIKING HER; ANY UPDATE IN WHICH SHE DOESN'T DIE IS TERRIBLE in general. Just a bit. I mean, by no means does anyone have to like any character they think is stupid or a Mary Sue or whatever but it does make the thread seem kind of hostile for those who DO like her. (Baww how dare you not like what I like) blah blah I have terrible taste so on and so forth. Or at least wait to see what happens before being like whatever is happening is terrible and stupid.

...The heck?
I've never attacked anyone who likes Vriska. I've complained solely about the character herself, and nothing I've said has been directed or should be interpreted to be directed at fans of the character who like her despite or even because of the reasons I dislike her.

I don't understand how y'all can honestly simultaneously criticize my desire to voice criticism in a topic designed to instigate discussion about said product while at the same time voicing your own appreciation and praise for the same elements. So it's cool that I have to read everyone's adoration of Vriska, but I can't criticize her because doing so might offend you? For one, you should really have a thicker shell: It's one thing to criticize a character you like but that's not remotely equivocal to criticizing you yourself.

...Which makes this all very strange, because you're totally fine with criticizing me personally in harsh terms over the fact that a character can't be criticized?

I mean if you want to turn this place into a boring zone where only fondness for Homestuck is expressed and criticism of the product is stifled, that's fine. Just let me know and I'll be sure to limit my discussion points to "Rah Rah Andrew Hussie is awesome at all things, everything he writes is magical."
If you want to criticize me for being objectively wrong, like Ryong basically did in calling me out for forgetting about the ancestor shenanigans, I'm cool with that, too. And if you really disagree with me about my interpretation of Vriska you're always free in my book to argue why you think Vriska is a brilliantly written character and I'll respect your viewpoint and respond to it accordingly.

But there's a huge difference between my criticism of Vriska and intending to "make anyone feel bad for liking her." I've done plenty of the former, none of the latter. At least I've certainly intended none of the latter. If I actually did do the latter unintentionally and you'd like to point out where I crossed any lines, I'd appreciate you (or, even more preferably, a moderator) doing that in a manner that's more civil than basically suggesting I'm trolling and attacking my personal credibility.
Because, you know, you'd pretty much think I was an asshole if I responded to your issues with a character you disliked by saying "Celes you're not welcome here, your opinions are stupid" as opposed to "Celes I respectfully disagree with your points, and here's where you're just objectively wrong in recalling your facts, and here's why I think this character actually works."

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

I think what she meant wasn't that you were directly insulting anyone but that the negativity is somewhat disheartening.

[CelesJessa]

Originally Posted by Karesh

I think what she meant wasn't that you were directly insulting anyone but that the negativity is somewhat disheartening.

Very much that, also

Originally Posted by CelesJessa

Yeah that part was kind of a spur of the moment bit that was pushing it too far, (a little bit lot of over-exaggeration for emphasis, as I was hoping was obvious, but it was in bad taste) for which I apologize. I was getting aggravated in general and being rude.

Very much that. Really.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Karesh

I think what she meant wasn't that you were directly insulting anyone but that the negativity is somewhat disheartening.

Can't say I understand that viewpoint either.

First, your own opinions about the awesomeness of a particular product shouldn't stifle criticism of it just because said criticism is unfortunate to hear. I love Metal Gear Solid but you'd all agree that I'd be an ass to immediately respond poorly to any criticism of its legitimate flaws on the basis that hearing those criticisms was 'disheartening.'

Even most of you with positive opinions regarding Homestuck probably don't think it's perfect, so where exactly do you draw the line as to what criticism is permissible and what is not?
EDIT: (Separating this question because I'd actually really like to hear perspectives on it.)

Hell, despite all my bitching and moaning even I've gone on record for noting how much I like and care about Homestuck, so much so that I've bothered to argue my points about it precisely because when it makes a misstep I feel disappointed. If I really hated Andrew's works I'd just respond with apathy.

Second, if you really think a product or a story is amazing, than nothing I say against that storyline should affect you.
Using Metal Gear Solid as an example again, if I really truly love MGS than reading all of your opinions on why MGS is an awful piece of trash really shouldn't have any bearing or cause any 'negative impact' on my own perspective. The only possible exception would be if I were to secretly believe the criticism had some degree of validity and acknowledging that validity made me feel 'uncomfortable.'

But seriously, I don't think I've changed anyone's opinions here regarding Homestuck or Vriska. If you thought it was awesome, you can still think it's awesome and you can either ignore my criticism or respond as to why you think my perspective on Vriska as a character is incorrect. I'd actually honestly be really interested in hearing why some of you really like Vriska, if for no other reason than it's always interesting to hear opposing viewpoints. I certainly wouldn't agree with you, but I'd think it'd actually make for interesting discussion.

EDIT 2: Again, as an example of a criticism of my own arguments in this topic that I think is totally valid and awesome and cool, it's totally rad that people like Ryong and others here correctly pointed out that my dislike of Vriska's Mary Sue-ism as a character blinded me to the fact that Andrew actually legitimately foreshadowed the use of Vriska's ancestral 'attack.' That's awesome, really. I have nothing to say about that except "Oops" and "I'm sorry, my bad." Mind you, it still doesn't change my perspectives about Vriska and Homestuck etc., but that's an example of a time where my criticism went overboard and had people basically limited their responses to my incorrect assertion by pointing out the objective falsehoods in the argument without dowsing my name in mud in the process, that'd be cool in my book.

[rpgdemon]

The difference is in the saturation. We get it. You guys dislike Vriska. I don't like her very much even. But, saying it over and overand over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is incredibly frustrating to read. It's just like, "Yeah, okay, it's the same rant again, yadda yadda.", and it feels as if any viewpoint other than MAN WE HATE VRISKA isn't welcome in the thread. Especially since Vriska keeps being called a Mary Sue, you are insulting anyone who thinks that she's an okay character, or that they'd think it's okay if she wins, by saying that they have a complete lack of appreciation of any form of good characterization at all, and have poor taste. Because, let's be honest, to say that something is a Mary Sue means, "There is no way that anyone should like this character, because it's absolutely terrible and ruins the story." Because if there's a Mary Sue character, the story is tripe and not worth reading to anyone who isn't the author.

[Kim]

RPG, you're being a bit ridiculous. More than a bit. More than more than a bit. Saying that by calling Vriska a Mary Sue it's insulting the people who like her is just... what. I happen to think calling Vriska a Mary Sue is probably inaccurate for a number of reasons, some of them merely expectations on my part, but someone stating their opinion of something's writing is not automatically insulting anyone who disagrees. It depends entirely on delivery, and the way you're reacting to what you're complaining about is silly.

That said, people are complaining far less about Vriska than the general writing around this section. It's mostly Snake complaining about Vriska specifically, and even that is within the context of these particular events. If you're unhappy with the level of complaining, fine. Feel free to complain about other people complaining. HOWEVER, internalizing it like you are is just going to lead to awful things.

[Marc v4.0]

To sort of state it again, I think the issue with 'Vriska-hate' isn't that it happens, but that it happens constantly in a stream any time she does something.

It isn't something that bothers me so much as all this horsefuckery filler about the subject of hating or not hating or only morally objecting to Vriska, who does and who does not.