Suicide theme park?

[Lucas]

You have a way of stretching my words...

Its hard to stretch "I don't think so, Tim".

Death is one thing. Suicide is quite another.

You'd be surprised at how related they are. One involves someone ceasing life functions, and so does the other. Suicide is a method of dying: understanding the reasoning behind why people commit suicide, then must happen after people accept death itself. Its hard to talk about anything that relates to death if your entire culture is focused on ignoring it until you reach hospitals.

But suicides are different; it's got a much more self-loathing

This phrase is terribly incorrect. People who suffer from deep clinical depressions don't hate themselves, they're just in a constant mental state of either pain or total apathy.

from wiki

Clinical depression is the major treatable cause, with alcohol or drug abuse being the next major categories. Other psychiatric disorders associated with suicidal thinking include bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, Borderline personality disorder, Gender identity disorder and anorexia nervosa.

Anorexia is probably the only one based on self-mental image. Clinical depression, however isn't caused by self loathing.

From wiki:

No specific cause for depression has been identified, but there are a number of factors believed to be involved.

Heredity The tendency to develop depression may be inherited; there is some evidence that this disorder may run in families.

Physiology There may be changes or imbalances in chemicals which transmit information in the brain, called neurotransmitters. Many modern antidepressant drugs attempt to increase levels of certain neurotransmitters, like serotonin. While the causal relationship is unclear, it is known that antidepressant medications do relieve certain symptoms of depression. Seasonal affective disorder (SAD) is a type of depressive disorder that occurs in the winter when daylight hours are short. It is believed that the body's production of melatonin, which is produced at increased levels in the dark, plays a major part in the onset of SAD, and that many sufferers respond well to bright light therapy, also known as phototherapy. High levels of Omega-6 fatty acids in the brain have also been linked to depression.[1]

Psychological factors Low self-esteem and self-defeating or distorted thinking are connected with depression. While it is not clear which is the cause and which is the effect, it is known that sufferers who are able to make corrections to their thinking patterns can show improved mood and self-esteem. Psychological factors include the complex development of one's personality and how one has learned to cope with external environmental factors, such as stress.

Early experiences Events such as the death of a parent, abandonment or rejection, neglect, chronic illness, and severe physical, psychological, or sexual abuse can also increase the likelihood of depression later in life. Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) includes depression as one of its major symptoms.

Life experiences Job loss, financial difficulties, long periods of unemployment, the loss of a spouse or other family member, or other traumatic events may trigger depression. Long-term stress, at home, work or school, can also be involved.

Medical conditions Certain illnesses including hepatitis, mononucleosis, and hypothyroidism may contribute to depression, as may certain prescription drugs such as birth control pills and steroids.

Alcohol and other drugs Alcohol can have a negative effect on mood, and misuse or abuse of alcohol, benzodiazepine-based tranquillizers and sleeping medications, or narcotics can all play a major role in the length and severity of depression. The link between cannabis abuse (as opposed to use) and depression is also widely documented.

Postpartum depression About ten percent of new mothers experience some form of depression after childbirth. When it occurs, the onset is typically within three months after delivery, and it may last for several months. About two new mothers out of a thousand have depression so severe it includes hallucinations or delusions.

Living with a depressed person Those living with someone suffering from depression experience increased anxiety, and life disruption, which increases the possibility of their also becoming depressed.

Social Environment Evolutionary theory suggests that depression is a protective mechanism: if an individual is involved in a lengthy fight for dominance of a social group and is clearly losing, depression causes the individual to back down and accept the submissive role. In doing so, they are protected from unnecessary harm. In this way, depression maintains the social hierarchy.

Other Evolutionary Theories Another evolutionary theory is that the cognitive response that produces modern day depression evolved as a mechanism that allows people to assess whether they are in pursuit of an unreachable goal. Still others claim that depression can be linked to perfectionism. People that accept satisfactory outcomes in lieu of "the best" outcome tend to lead happier lives.

Simplisting thinking like "suicide is caused by people hating themselves" is the reason why suicide is looked down upon in western cultures. That simply is NOT the case. Depressive suicide is often caused by changes in brain chemistry due to a long deppressed state of emotions. It can also be caused by chemical imbalances following periods of grief. If you understand the radically different way a person sees the world when he's suicidal, it dispells a lot of the negative myths about suicide itself. To achieve that understanding, people have to be willing to accept death, otherwise they won't be able to let themselves understand what happened; they will instead remain hung up a notion of morality.

The japanese, for example, viewed suicide as the pinacle of a person's mental fortitude: he would take his own life to repent for a shameful deed. Such a person wasn't a moron or a retard for doing so; they were strong enough to admit to being wrong and repaid the debt. How would a theme park dedicated to suicide be offensive to them? It would be an expression of the immensity of human endurance, not a display of cowardice.

But people usually think badly of suicide

Exactly my point: if you don't understand something, you obviously are going to have an incomplete response to it. I don't see people who have committed suicide as deranged idiots, or cowardly losers, but I'm not the majority. There IS a stigma against suicide, which is why bringing it into the public forum is GOOD. I find it hilarious that you would bring this up after trying to knock down a point of mine.

People kill themselves. This statement is true and tragic. People often do not talk about why or how people kill themselves. This statement is also true and tragic.

I'd prefer to only have one of those two statements be true, and i know which one can be changed.

[Mirai Gen]

...Lucas you're taking me way too seriously. I said it might be bad for them, but it would be GOOD if they could lighten up the effects of a location for multiple suicides in the past. I'm not going to quote everything you said and try to explain myself, but just know that "I don't think so, tim." was a Home Improvement reference meant lightly in the situation.

You also can't quote just a fraction of what I said, I did say, "But suicides are different; it's got a much more self-loathing, maybe even mental health problem basis," So yes, I know that it is based off of mental health, but that mental health leads to depression and self-loathing (generally, please don't correct me). It's not self-loathing leading to suicide, it's mental health leading to depression - usually, since I cant claim to know it all, I only know what I was saying. So suicides used for amusement value, suicides being one of the more darker and feared of death's forms, might be bad on the public.

I really don't know what you're arguing, since I thought we agreed that this was a good thing if they could do it right. But if they are insensitive, it will cause an uproar.

Originally Posted by Lucas

You'd be surprised at how related (death and suicide) are. One involves someone ceasing life functions, and so does the other. Suicide is a method of dying: understanding the reasoning behind why people commit suicide, then must happen after people accept death itself. Its hard to talk about anything that relates to death if your entire culture is focused on ignoring it until you reach hospitals.

Yes, they are related, and it would be better to understand life and death more so we will fear it less, but they are very different when you look at them, because as I had said, death is passing, inevitable, and imminent, I daresay gentler. Suicide is someone clincally/whatever unhappy with their life, deciding to end it themselves through rather brutal means. Unless this was a very weakly written article, I highly doubt there was a suicide clinic here.

[Lucas]

Yes, they are related, and it would be better to understand life and death more so we will fear it less, but they are very different when you look at them, because as I had said, death is passing, inevitable, and imminent, I daresay gentler. Suicide is someone clincally/whatever unhappy with their life, deciding to end it themselves through rather brutal means. Unless this was a very weakly written article, I highly doubt there was a suicide clinic here.

Death is not gentle, nor is it a kindly old man who knocks on your door while you sleep. Death is severe, painful, and prolonged in some cases. Chronic illness and terminally ill patients go through incredible ordeals that, to be quite frank, I'd rather skip. Palliative care units have a few happy people who are going to die, but most often the rest are in a brutal amount of pain, or on so many drugs that they might as well be gone. This is exactly the type of generalization that isn't correct, and that isn't helpful. Suicide is NOT a more brutal death than dying by lung cancer. Even with the most drawn out form of conventional suicide (improper hanging to asphyxiation) your total painful stage is around an hour. The cleanest suicide (overdose of sleeping pills) brings about almost no pain at all depending on the exact type used.

The damage that suicide does, versus those other deaths isn't to the person, but to their family as a result of social stigma. A suicide implies that those closest to the victim were completely inept which has nothing to do with the actual events. Mischaracterizations, such as the "suicide is a product of self loathing", are a prime reason for such social rationalizations, leading the victim's family and friends battling the scorn of society and the loss of a loved one.

Most suicide victims go through a phase to minimize this pain, in which they put their life's affairs into order before leaving. This includes writing a note, will, settling of debts, forgiving grudges, etc. These behaviors are atypical of someone who loathes himself or who faces severe mental problems, but rather the actions of someone who has rationally decided to take his life.

...Lucas you're taking me way too seriously

So i should be assuming that your posts in the discussion forum are... not for discussion? This is a serious issue, and i don't appreciate you thinking otherwise.

suicides are different; it's got a much more self-loathing, maybe even mental health problem basis," So yes, I know that it is based off of mental health

Lets examine this. Which of your 2 statements are absolute? The bolded or the italic? I highlighted that maybe for a reason. Your statement is fairly typical of western views towards suicide, and I'm not faulting you on that: I'm just explaining how there's a problem with holding a view like that while discussing suicide related issues when the facts state otherwise. Maybe even? Both maybe AND even state your uncertainty over it.

It's not self-loathing leading to suicide, it's mental health leading to depression - usually, since I cant claim to know it all, I only know what I was saying. So suicides used for amusement value, suicides being one of the more darker and feared of death's forms, might be bad on the public.

First off, you've dropped self-loathing as a cause, when you said it was your absolute cause before. Next you say that mental health leads to depression, but that's a misnomer: depression IS a mental health issue. Next, you fail to state why bringing suicide into the public's eye is a bad thing, especially when I've clearly demonstrated that the public knows jack-all about suicide.. off you, might i add. Forcing suicide into public discussion means people will learn about it, refine their views, and perhaps reverse the social stigma surrounding suicides, which i don't consider a bad thing.

I really don't know what you're arguing, since I thought we agreed that this was a good thing if they could do it right. But if they are insensitive, it will cause an uproar.

You stated incorrect "facts", I pointed them out. More to the point, I originally stated that I thought it would be a good idea if they did it right, but you didn't think they would, thus I fail to see how your original post had any form of substantive argument unless you actually don't think it can be done right.

[Raiden]

Now we're just talking about theories about suicide, when the topic is whether making an attraction themed about suicide is a good idea.

The stigma of suicide comes from the fact that every human has the innate need to survive. Truly, a human would do many things in order to stay alive. For a human to willingly overgo that need and actually end their survival themselves, for whatever reason, is what makes it so strange.

Now, in my personal opinion, I don't think it's a good idea. I don't think it's alright to exploit the deaths of over twenty people to make money. However, that's not why I think it's not a good idea.

Really, it's not going to get them much money. Who is really going to go out of their way to stay in a house where people killed themselves? Maybe a morbid or curious person, but it won't get much pull. That's why it's not good. It's not worth putting the effort into making an attraction that won't bring in much revenue.

[Lockeownzj00]

I disagree, Raiden. Some of the biggest attractions are places where "such and such celebrity died," or "x amount of people were killed--" not genocide; (most) people don't revel in going to holocaust sites, but individual, isolated, almost legend-like places attract people. And when you make it light-hearted like this, who knows--some people might come.

[adamark]

Lucas in post #11, your last quote... whom were you quoting and then speaking to? I didn't see that phrase anywhere in the thread.

[Mirai Gen]

He was talking to me, adamark, and mostly they were my quotes.

Originally Posted by Lucas

Lets examine this. Which of your 2 statements are absolute? The bolded or the italic? I highlighted that maybe for a reason. Your statement is fairly typical of western views towards suicide, and I'm not faulting you on that: I'm just explaining how there's a problem with holding a view like that while discussing suicide related issues when the facts state otherwise. Maybe even? Both maybe AND even state your uncertainty over it.

Okay, so then I apologize for getting my words scrambled, I had them in the opposite order.

Originally Posted by Lucas

First off, you've dropped self-loathing as a cause, when you said it was your absolute cause before. Next you say that mental health leads to depression, but that's a misnomer: depression IS a mental health issue. Next, you fail to state why bringing suicide into the public's eye is a bad thing, especially when I've clearly demonstrated that the public knows jack-all about suicide.. off you, might i add. Forcing suicide into public discussion means people will learn about it, refine their views, and perhaps reverse the social stigma surrounding suicides, which i don't consider a bad thing.

You stated incorrect "facts", I pointed them out. More to the point, I originally stated that I thought it would be a good idea if they did it right, but you didn't think they would, thus I fail to see how your original post had any form of substantive argument unless you actually don't think it can be done right.

Lucas, for the love of...

It's not a debate. Stop trying to 'rule out insubstantial arguements' and 'stating incorrect facts.' I thought it could be done correctly, though it would be tricky because suicide is a darker topic than death itself, and I disagreed that death and suicide are close enough to warrant being irrelevent in this topic.

My post's point was that I;
1 - disagreed with you for appearing to think that death and suicide are really almost the same thing.
2 - Thought it was a bad idea, unless it de-sensitized the deaths in a more light-hearted way,
3 - think that a tourist attraction based off of suicide almost begged for trouble from the public.

I don't care how suicide is defined, I don't care how I might have misphrased it, and I don't care about my evidence or words being incorrect. You are the only one in this topic so far to have corrected me, and I highly doubt anyone else gives a shit either.

[Lockeownzj00]

Actually, I think Lucas was doing well in calling you on some of that stuff. You're not a "bad person" but it's the age old argument where one person makes bold claims, the other one debunks them, and the first person claims that the other is taking it way too seriously.

I doubt he's mad, I doubt he's all up in arms; this is a jumpstart for a discussion, and if you say something that (he believes) is misguided or misrepresents something, he'll call you on it. By saying "i don't care if my facts are incorrect," all you're really saying is, "well, all my facts may be incorrect and the basis for my opinion may be rooted in false ideologies, but I still maintain my original point no matter what."

You're not a "bad person" and nobody's out to get you. I, as well as Lucas think some of the things you said were overlooking things, and I would've done the same thing--try to systematically look at what is the root cause of these thoughts.

There's this weird phenomenon that I notice all too often. When you're having a mid-level debate with someone, ie, quasi-casual but not too serious or heated in any way, and they say something egregiously wrong, and you point it out in a sentence that takes more than three seconds to say, suddenly it explodes into a huge argument. I think everyone would be much more sane if they took a breath, read what was being said, and had some falafel, or something else delicious.

[Mirai Gen]

I realize he was calling me on stuff that I didn't explain well, but we were getting WAY too off topic reguardless of what I think or what I said. I'm not trying to back out of this debate, I'd be more than willing to continue, but I feel it's more spammy and off-topic than it is helpful to the subject at hand. Plus, there's the fact that we agreed to begin with, so him correcting and telling me the faults in my arguement is really moot.

Or maybe I was just a little thrown off by the multiple-paragraph quote from a psychology website in reply to something I said.

[Lucas]

Its rather simple. We're talking about something relating to suicide, and most people have no idea how suicide works. Thus things like

The stigma of suicide comes from the fact that every human has the innate need to survive

Get said.

Is that correct? No. It isn't. How does a human have a need to survive? If he dies, isn't he just... dead? Isn't an innate need something like "in order to live, one must eat"?

Is that where the stimga comes from? No, there are other cultures in which death by suicide are praised. Bushido and honor come to mind. The stigma is created by the social myth surrounding the issue, and when no one knows anything about the issue, the myth can be anything.

Thus, if we're to discuss the propriety of an establishment which "exploits" suicide, we have to understand suicide itself, lest our conversation be a constant barrage of "well, suicide is bad, mmmkay" "why?" "uh... cuz i like life, lol!".

My original argument is that suicide isn't an often explored issue, thus people would be more inclined to talk about it when its brought into the public arena. People thus far haven't attacked this: no one has said that this theme park wouldn't increase the public exposure to death or suicide, nor have they stated that doing so in this form would be detrimental to the public's understanding of such events. That being said, had those points come into question, i would have had plenty of support for them.

Now, i believe this themepark, if done respectfully/classily would be good for the reasons i outlined in my first post.

Having people afterwards spouting common western suicide myths only reinforces my point. Its like saying "we need children to take more math in school" and the next 4 posters say "OMFG UR DUMB 3+2=4 LOL!". Is it the fault of said posters that they never learnt about math? No, which is why i'm advocating it in schools. This isn't a tirade against anyone, Mirai Gen in the least, its just the way things are.

If anything, i'd say that asian culture, having a large history with buddism, is far more prepared to accept in depth discussion about death... but here's the thing: they already do have such public discourse, on a level far higher than we in the west do, making them far more ready to accept such attractions compared to us. This explains why the proposal was made in the first place.

I think everyone would be much more sane if they took a breath, read what was being said, and had some falafel, or something else delicious.

Falafel always costs less than shawarma, and i don't know why. You can get 2 pitas with the same tasty goodness... that, my dear friends, is madness.

Also: i agree with all of Locke's post.