Fate, Free Will, and Sarda being a jackass

[Heresy488]

In this most recent comic 1136, Red Mage makes the point that Sarda was to blame for all the ruin and death caused by the Light Warriors because he put them on the course of their actions.

To which Sarda retorted, "It's my fault you people kill and cheat your way through your miserable lives?" Sarda is putting the responsibility of the consequences of the Light Warrior's actions at their feet - as though they had a choice in the matter. However, as the last several comics have demonstrated - the Light Warriors never had a choice. #434 and all that - everything that happened was going to happen, there were no choices. Fate, determinism, and all that.

How can a person be held responsible for their actions if they had no choice in the matter? The events that happened could have happened in no other way. Holding the Light Warriors responsible for their inevitable actions would be like holding fire responsible for burning something. We know and understand fire, the consequences of fire are predictable and we know it. Sarda knows too what the Light Warriors did, what they had done, what they will do, and he further knows that the actions they take must be taken and they lack the power to do otherwise.

So how rational is it for Sarda to hold the Light Warriors accountable for the atrocities committed against the Onion Kid? The Light Warriors could no more resist their fates than fire could resist burning something. It sounds really dick for Sarda to play the fate-card to justify his own authority, holding back the free will-card for when it'll hurt the LW's case. This looks like a glaring contradiction.



And this is why fate is not a valid perspective with which to view the world. The consequences of absolving yourself of the responsibilites of your actions would be disastrous. Could you imagine someone committing a crime and then using the explanation, "I had to do it, I was compelled by my destiny to murder that person and take their money. I could not resist my fate."

"Well ok buddy, that's your confession. See you in twenty to life."

Sarda is using fate to justify himself, but is holding the Light Warriors accountable to free will. That's not right.

[The Wizard Who Did It]

Originally Posted by Heresy488

And this is why fate is not a valid perspective with which to view the world. The consequences of absolving yourself of the responsibilites of your actions would be disastrous. Could you imagine someone committing a crime and then using the explanation, "I had to do it, I was compelled by my destiny to murder that person and take their money. I could not resist my fate."

That's only if you think justice exists to punish people. Just because you're not accountable for your actions doesn't mean you shouldn't be jailed or sent to a clinic for treatment or whatever. The point of those things is to get criminals off the street/cure people so they can be productive members of society (preferably the latter, the former if necessary).

In other words, deterministic thinking is only a really faulty way to view the world if you're stupid enough to believe that not being in control of your actions means that you have no accountability for your actions. There are obvious examples where people are in no control of their actions and because of those specific circumstances can't be held accountable, but those don't apply to the overall deterministic viewpoint.


Also, yes, Sarda is being completely irrational.

[Meister]

Originally Posted by Heresy488

So how rational is it for Sarda to hold the Light Warriors accountable for the atrocities committed against the Onion Kid?

Pretty much exactly as rational as it is for the Light Warriors to commit sins agains human-, elf- and dwarfity whereever they go. He's as caught up in this as everyone.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Meister

Pretty much exactly as rational as it is for the Light Warriors to commit sins agains human-, elf- and dwarfity whereever they go. He's as caught up in this as everyone.

Did they commit sins against elfity? I don't recall that. Well, the lying. Oh! You must mean the dark elves. Yeah, got it, nevermind.

[Neni]

Sarda is just stupid, that's my opinion. I think that there IS a destiny, but that you CAN screw this destiny. So easy. He can't tell me, that his theory was actually working. Because it isn't. On a million levels.

Therefor, in my opinion, Sarda now outranks Fighter as the most naiv character in the comic. -.-

So, and now burn me as a witch for saying what I think.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Neni

So, and now burn me as a witch for saying what I think.

Or, y'know, let's not and say we didn't?

See the ultimate problem with Fate, or Destiny, or Determinism, or whathaveyou, is that people often use it to justify why they do very, very bad things. It can be as simple as "the devil made me do it"* or "I was just following orders, and thus had no choice" or it can be as complex as "due to the stable, unchanging nature of time, I am absolved of all responsibility of my actions". In either case, the answer is "No, you're wrong." Actions merit responses. Justification fails for evil actions.

Even if** Sarda were correct - that there is nothing he could have done differently - the fact is he chose to do it this way. He may be telling the truth, but the fact that he absolves himself is absolutely wrong. Do the Light Warriors*** deserve death for their overwhelming evil? Absolutely. Buy, hey, so does Sarda. Sucks, eh?

*This statement in and of itself carries an entirely massive amount of world-view assumptions that aren't really bourne out by any religious text. Even when people are indicated to be "possessed of a malicious spirit" the indication is that they were possessed through their own devices in the first place - in other words, they opened themselves up to it. This need not involve satanic rituals... but again, it's a whole other topic of conversation. It's also stupid and against the scriptural devil's MO. Occasionally used for humor.
**I am presuming that Sarda is correct as of Brian's responses. But I guess we never know for sure.
***Excluding Fighter. He's a casualty.

[The Wizard Who Did It]

Originally Posted by tacticslion

See the ultimate problem with Fate, or Destiny, or Determinism, or whathaveyou, is that people often use it to justify why they do very, very bad things. It can be as simple as "the devil made me do it"* or "I was just following orders, and thus had no choice" or it can be as complex as "due to the stable, unchanging nature of time, I am absolved of all responsibility of my actions". In either case, the answer is "No, you're wrong." Actions merit responses. Justification fails for evil actions.

Again though, that's stupid people misinterpreting the concept more than a problem with the idea of Fate itself.

It's like people hearing about this great thing called Free Will and saying, "Oh, I can just murder everyone I don't like, because I have Free Will and can do whatever I want!"

That's hyperbole, but you and I both know that many people misinterpret the terms "freedom" and "choice" to giving themselves the ability to do stupid, irresponsible, and harmful things because they can.

Originally Posted by Noncon

Well, in the case of 8-Bit, it isn't that everything that happened was supposed to happen, but rather that everything that happens has already happened. They still have a choice, it's just that they've already made and acted on those choices, in a matter of speaking.

Another example: You made your post. You have already made and acted upon that choice. You can't change that. That does not mean you don't have free will.

I THINK (I'm not entirely sure) that you're mistaking the idea of "proving fate" and "acknowledging how fate works".

You're right that it's impossible to prove Fate. No matter what actions you do, me saying that it's because you were fated to do so has about the same weight as you saying you had the free will to do so. It's impossible to conclusively prove other side.

However, if we assume that there is Fate, there is no Free Will. If everything is going to happen one and only one way, then there is no choice. You can't define a choice with only one option. Fate and Free Will are mutually exclusive concepts, they can't both be completely in effect.

[Kim]

Well, here's my views on if there were such a thing as Fate, and its relation to free will. Let us say that everything is predetermined. Everything is going to happen a certain way, and there is absolutely no changing that. That includes our thoughts and behaviors. However, it is still possible for free will to exist. Just because what we do is already decided does not change the fact that it is predetermined because we make those decisions that are already decided.

Just because I know you are going to let the cup fall to the ground because that's what is decided to happen does not change the fact that you chose to let the cup fall to the ground. Ya dig?

[Nuklear Waste]

From Sarda's perspective, the Light Warriors were always going to traumatize him just as he was always going to kill them. To him, there's no avoiding either one.

[Heresy488]

Originally Posted by NonCon

Well, here's my views on if there were such a thing as Fate, and its relation to free will. Let us say that everything is predetermined. Everything is going to happen a certain way, and there is absolutely no changing that. That includes our thoughts and behaviors. However, it is still possible for free will to exist. Just because what we do is already decided does not change the fact that it is predetermined because we make those decisions that are already decided.

Just because I know you are going to let the cup fall to the ground because that's what is decided to happen does not change the fact that you chose to let the cup fall to the ground. Ya dig?

No, I can't choose to let the cup fall to the ground. Whatever it was that designed the universe and the sequence of events that would take place within it made that choice and I was only going through the motions, living robotically until I died.

Choice implies that you could have done something different. But if everything that happened was supposed to happen, there is no choice. Conceivably, someone (like Sarda) could know the future completely and watch it unfold, knowing what will happen before it happens. In the context of that outsider, with the advantage of that pre-knowledge, there is no choice. I love fire. The Light Warriors could no more deviate from their actions than a flame could deviate from burning everything around it.

Just like how the Light Warriors can't choose to kill the Onion Kid. The LW's don't have the choice.

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

He's spent all of eternity in blinding rage of the Light Warriors for orphaning him twice as a child, so he doesn't care about logic that could possibly steamroll or interrupt his quest for humiliating vengeance.

If that were the case, why does he bother monologuing about it? It's like he's insecure and has to validate his actions to himself (not Onion Kid, I mean to himself). Sarda is just acting like a bitch now.