My issue with procedural generation

Aerozord · 10-01-2013, 04:59 PM

So I have been playing FTL (thanks again for the free code) and while procedural generation makes replay infinite I realize what I hate about it. Its not balanced. Luck plays as much a part of the game as skill and sometimes is the sole factor. For example I came across the boss, who also has a random load out. With 4 layers of shields and an anti-missile defense. These two defenses render everything besides teleported weapons useless. Even with those considering the usual difficulty of the final boss it wouldn't have helped.

Another time you just get crap loot. This was an especially huge problem in Binding of Isaac. Getting redundant or weak upgrades.

Then the opposite issue of getting really lucky and the game is a cake walk. I'm not saying the game is bad because I am loving this game, just bothers me abit when I lose because of a fluke randomization instead of lack of skill. Procedural generation has its place, and is best for games like this, but it does also make me appreciate well crafted level design and difficulty curves.

Grandmaster_Skweeb · 10-01-2013, 05:27 PM

I'm a fan of proceduralization, when done in moderation. there needs to be a balanced baseline before variable loot/whatever is added on top. Isaac is a decent example because it is entirely feasible to beat the game with the base stats. I myself have come very close before a poor decision on my part cost me a sweet victory.

relying entirely on proceduralization is a sloppy design choice for the most part. But then again, it works well for dungeon crawls because victory isn't so much the goal as delaying death as long as possible using every means possible.

As for FTL, it had a great idea..but yeah,it relied entirely too much on luck for the player's part. Some runs I've had gave nothing but total rubbish the entire run and others were fantastic. What gets my goat about it are the special events that come up. A small chance to find..oh say a crystal pod. then another small chance later to find the next step. then a third chance for the third. I've found a pod numerous times but never the followups so no crystal dudes for me or crystal ship.

Azisien · 10-01-2013, 10:13 PM

I hated how you couldn't rob a ship blind in exchange for their life, and then just blow them up anyway. You should totally be allowed to do that! Also that other stuff, though FTL is still pretty enjoyable.

Aerozord · 10-02-2013, 01:08 AM

Actually, abit off topic but my biggest issue with FTL is the achievements. Have max evasion and then GET HIT five times? Not only is this a pure luck occurrence but its one of those ones you unlock by doing poorly.

akaSM · 10-02-2013, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerozord

Actually, abit off topic but my biggest issue with FTL is the achievements. Have max evasion and then GET HIT five times? Not only is this a pure luck occurrence but its one of those ones you unlock by doing poorly.

Now I understand why some NPFer told people to just get a save file with the ships unlocked and have fun .-.

Grandmaster_Skweeb · 10-02-2013, 05:40 AM

Pretty much that, save scumming, or using a save editor to take the edge off bullshittery.

Loyal · 10-02-2013, 05:45 AM

Procedural generation isn't inherently bad, it's just that much more apparent when it's poorly implemented.

MuMu · 10-02-2013, 11:41 AM

There can be cases where procedural generation doesn't completely fuck you up, but FTL is not one of them. It's complete, pure and utterly bullshit.

10-01-2013, 04:59 PM	#1
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	My issue with procedural generation So I have been playing FTL (thanks again for the free code) and while procedural generation makes replay infinite I realize what I hate about it. Its not balanced. Luck plays as much a part of the game as skill and sometimes is the sole factor. For example I came across the boss, who also has a random load out. With 4 layers of shields and an anti-missile defense. These two defenses render everything besides teleported weapons useless. Even with those considering the usual difficulty of the final boss it wouldn't have helped. Another time you just get crap loot. This was an especially huge problem in Binding of Isaac. Getting redundant or weak upgrades. Then the opposite issue of getting really lucky and the game is a cake walk. I'm not saying the game is bad because I am loving this game, just bothers me abit when I lose because of a fluke randomization instead of lack of skill. Procedural generation has its place, and is best for games like this, but it does also make me appreciate well crafted level design and difficulty curves. __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

10-01-2013, 05:27 PM	#2
Grandmaster_Skweeb Doesn't care anymore Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 2,429	I'm a fan of proceduralization, when done in moderation. there needs to be a balanced baseline before variable loot/whatever is added on top. Isaac is a decent example because it is entirely feasible to beat the game with the base stats. I myself have come very close before a poor decision on my part cost me a sweet victory. relying entirely on proceduralization is a sloppy design choice for the most part. But then again, it works well for dungeon crawls because victory isn't so much the goal as delaying death as long as possible using every means possible. As for FTL, it had a great idea..but yeah,it relied entirely too much on luck for the player's part. Some runs I've had gave nothing but total rubbish the entire run and others were fantastic. What gets my goat about it are the special events that come up. A small chance to find..oh say a crystal pod. then another small chance later to find the next step. then a third chance for the third. I've found a pod numerous times but never the followups so no crystal dudes for me or crystal ship. Last edited by Grandmaster_Skweeb; 10-01-2013 at 05:31 PM.

10-02-2013, 01:08 AM	#4
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	Actually, abit off topic but my biggest issue with FTL is the achievements. Have max evasion and then GET HIT five times? Not only is this a pure luck occurrence but its one of those ones you unlock by doing poorly. __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

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10-01-2013, 10:13 PM	#3
Azisien wat Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,177	I hated how you couldn't rob a ship blind in exchange for their life, and then just blow them up anyway. You should totally be allowed to do that! Also that other stuff, though FTL is still pretty enjoyable.

10-02-2013, 05:40 AM	#6
Grandmaster_Skweeb Doesn't care anymore Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 2,429	Pretty much that, save scumming, or using a save editor to take the edge off bullshittery.

10-02-2013, 11:41 AM	#8
MuMu Rocky Wrench Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Rio Posts: 1,197	There can be cases where procedural generation doesn't completely fuck you up, but FTL is not one of them. It's complete, pure and utterly bullshit.