EMP and ion cannons

11-21-2003, 06:51 PM

I'm hoping I'm not the only to notice this, but aren't the effects of electro magnetic pulses and ion cannons completely the same?

I mean, they both disable electronic systems and the only apparent difference that I've noticed is that ion cannons tend to be referred to in games, whereas EMP generators are typically referred to in military terms.

Anyone able to shed some light on this?

Lycanthrope · 11-21-2003, 07:11 PM

Not really. EMP is covers a large area, will short out any particularly sensitive equiptment, but will only knock out power in general for a few moments. Ion cannons only cover what gets hit, but will cause any electronic equiptment to shortcircuit, knocking out power in any area untill someone can fix it.

Deathosaurus Wrecks · 11-22-2003, 12:39 AM

well yes, an Electro Magnetic PULSE will fry electronics over a wide area, as it is a large, uncontrolled pulse of energy; usualy from a high altitude nuclear blast. "Fried electronics" is the operative term here. the EMP uses any piece of metal as an anttena, and completely burns out unshielded wiring. In theory, any high powered Electromagnetic/Electrostatic beam/wave/field could produce the same effects as a EMP.

Ion streams are a bit more dangerous to humans, if i understand it properly. As an Ion Beam is essentialy a particle stream (instead of an electric current), it can effect biological matter as well as electronics (see: ion drives). I've heard that heavy exposure to ion beams leads to permanant damage to a subject's DNA (ions will strike and knock ameno acids out of the way).

now, most of this i learned through my high school physics class, four years ago, so theres a few points that im fuzzy on (mostly the ion physics). but im sure a quick check through wikipedia or some other online resource will turn up some hard facts.

Lycanthrope · 11-22-2003, 01:46 AM

eh! you may be right. God knows. I don't think that the ions are small enough to cause a total exposure gama-ray type damage to the human body, but would probably give some nasty burns, and may well play bloody hell with the nervous system.

Deathosaurus Wrecks · 11-22-2003, 02:02 AM

from what i understood, the ion damage would be un-noticeable to the target. it would only be later in life would they experience health problems.

Lycanthrope · 11-22-2003, 02:07 AM

As I said, I wouldn't know. Maybe skin cancer. trust your teacher not me. I know the physics, but I don't know the biochemistry. I couldn't tell you how ions would effect amino acids I had an ion cannon aimed dirrectly at me.

11-22-2003, 02:41 AM

since an emp is a side effect of an atomic detonation, most of the electronics in the area of effect dont exist long enough to remain disabled anyway.

Deathosaurus Wrecks · 11-22-2003, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tark

since an emp is a side effect of an atomic detonation, most of the electronics in the area of effect dont exist long enough to remain disabled anyway.

not true. EMP is only generated from a nuclear blast when the warhead is detonated in near-orbit altitudes. ive got a link somewheres....uh...ok i guess i dont have a link for EMP (did a report on nuclear fallout survival not too long ago).

about alpha particles: i think that most Ion weaponry used 'heavy ions' which i would assume are larger particles without thier electrons. i would think that that would add to the damage that the beam would do (a larger particle would strip more electrons). i dono about penetration though, all i know is that Ion cannons from MOO2 were fucking annoying.

11-22-2003, 05:48 AM

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY.../1103ebom.html

Updates on the latest development in electronic warfare

Priest4hire · 11-22-2003, 06:15 AM

Well, ions are atoms that have had their electrons stripped off. As such they have an effective positive charge. The alpha particle is the smallest possible ion given that it's just a proton (hydrogen atom sans electron) and so I'd assume that it would be a decent gauge for the effect of ions.

Alpha particles don't penetrate far into objects with mass. So large are they that a sheet of paper will absorb them. Ions would be that large or larger, so I assume that they wouldn't penetrate very far into anything. Certainly they wouldn't be able to act like an EMP. A ship's metal hull would stop them. So then I imagine that it would be the transfer of energy onto the surface of the object that would cause damage. Perhaps the ions would strip electrons from, say, a metal hull causing it to take on a charge itself.

The impact of the ions should generate heat, and if the particles were large enough might even generate some physical force. Physical force of significant effect that is. In fact, it's that very physical force that allows a ship to be propelled by the ion drive. (Though now I can just hear someone say "What about the photon drive?" but that's a little unrelated).

The energy of the impact from ions might conceivably damage a DNA molecule that it happens to hit. But given the low penetration, that doesn't seem too likely. Certainly it would be limited to the skin, but it would have to penetrate the outer layer of dead skin first. And if it was powerful enough to do that, odds are cancer would be the last thing the recipient would be worrying about.

11-21-2003, 06:51 PM	#1
mask Guest Posts: n/a	EMP and ion cannons I'm hoping I'm not the only to notice this, but aren't the effects of electro magnetic pulses and ion cannons completely the same? I mean, they both disable electronic systems and the only apparent difference that I've noticed is that ion cannons tend to be referred to in games, whereas EMP generators are typically referred to in military terms. Anyone able to shed some light on this?

11-22-2003, 12:39 AM	#3
Deathosaurus Wrecks Underachiever Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,996	well yes, an Electro Magnetic PULSE will fry electronics over a wide area, as it is a large, uncontrolled pulse of energy; usualy from a high altitude nuclear blast. "Fried electronics" is the operative term here. the EMP uses any piece of metal as an anttena, and completely burns out unshielded wiring. In theory, any high powered Electromagnetic/Electrostatic beam/wave/field could produce the same effects as a EMP. Ion streams are a bit more dangerous to humans, if i understand it properly. As an Ion Beam is essentialy a particle stream (instead of an electric current), it can effect biological matter as well as electronics (see: ion drives). I've heard that heavy exposure to ion beams leads to permanant damage to a subject's DNA (ions will strike and knock ameno acids out of the way). now, most of this i learned through my high school physics class, four years ago, so theres a few points that im fuzzy on (mostly the ion physics). but im sure a quick check through wikipedia or some other online resource will turn up some hard facts. __________________ "There was another, who came before you he was a hero and your brother and my son he fought the darkenss, the darkness won" -The Protomen "Unrest in the House of Light"

11-22-2003, 02:02 AM	#5
Deathosaurus Wrecks Underachiever Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,996	from what i understood, the ion damage would be un-noticeable to the target. it would only be later in life would they experience health problems. __________________ "There was another, who came before you he was a hero and your brother and my son he fought the darkenss, the darkness won" -The Protomen "Unrest in the House of Light"

11-22-2003, 02:07 AM	#6
Lycanthrope Deus Lupus Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The City of Angels Posts: 2,925	As I said, I wouldn't know. Maybe skin cancer. trust your teacher not me. I know the physics, but I don't know the biochemistry. I couldn't tell you how ions would effect amino acids I had an ion cannon aimed dirrectly at me. __________________ "With these seven easy steps, you, too, can be the authoritarian despot of your own principality. Machiavelli, your road to happiness" "I shoot Flying Monkies!" "Christmas had it coming its what it gets for taking over thanksgiving and threatening halloween with its weapons of mass consumerism" "Death to All Fanatics!" Official RP Action God Lycanthropic Poem "FOR YOU THE CAKE IS OVER. YOU HAVE REACHED THE END OF CAKE." -Death Krylo and BMG are apparently my bitches.

11-21-2003, 07:11 PM	#2
Lycanthrope Deus Lupus Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The City of Angels Posts: 2,925	Not really. EMP is covers a large area, will short out any particularly sensitive equiptment, but will only knock out power in general for a few moments. Ion cannons only cover what gets hit, but will cause any electronic equiptment to shortcircuit, knocking out power in any area untill someone can fix it.

11-22-2003, 01:46 AM	#4
Lycanthrope Deus Lupus Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The City of Angels Posts: 2,925	eh! you may be right. God knows. I don't think that the ions are small enough to cause a total exposure gama-ray type damage to the human body, but would probably give some nasty burns, and may well play bloody hell with the nervous system.

11-22-2003, 02:41 AM	#7
Tark Guest Posts: n/a	since an emp is a side effect of an atomic detonation, most of the electronics in the area of effect dont exist long enough to remain disabled anyway.

11-22-2003, 05:48 AM	#9
Miso Beno Guest Posts: n/a	http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY.../1103ebom.html Updates on the latest development in electronic warfare

11-22-2003, 06:15 AM	#10
Priest4hire I don't bite... hard. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 402	Well, ions are atoms that have had their electrons stripped off. As such they have an effective positive charge. The alpha particle is the smallest possible ion given that it's just a proton (hydrogen atom sans electron) and so I'd assume that it would be a decent gauge for the effect of ions. Alpha particles don't penetrate far into objects with mass. So large are they that a sheet of paper will absorb them. Ions would be that large or larger, so I assume that they wouldn't penetrate very far into anything. Certainly they wouldn't be able to act like an EMP. A ship's metal hull would stop them. So then I imagine that it would be the transfer of energy onto the surface of the object that would cause damage. Perhaps the ions would strip electrons from, say, a metal hull causing it to take on a charge itself. The impact of the ions should generate heat, and if the particles were large enough might even generate some physical force. Physical force of significant effect that is. In fact, it's that very physical force that allows a ship to be propelled by the ion drive. (Though now I can just hear someone say "What about the photon drive?" but that's a little unrelated). The energy of the impact from ions might conceivably damage a DNA molecule that it happens to hit. But given the low penetration, that doesn't seem too likely. Certainly it would be limited to the skin, but it would have to penetrate the outer layer of dead skin first. And if it was powerful enough to do that, odds are cancer would be the last thing the recipient would be worrying about.