Something the Epilogue showed me...

Sliths · 06-01-2010, 01:37 PM

Sprites vs 3D models. I know you could be thinking, "wrong board, jackass", but gimme a minute.

I vaguely recall at one point nuklearpower had an article where Brian talked about how 3D Final Fantasy never really brought anything to gaming. I only vaguely remember the details of the article but if I recall the gist of it was that gaming lost something in the transition.

I never, ever agreed.

Until reading the epilogue.

Of course I have no complaints about the epilogue, the writing and the art was fantastic. If in any part of my post you think I made this thread to whine or moan, read that previous sentence. Multiple times if you need to.

It does strike me though that if 8-bit theater had been done hand drawn this entire time, I don't think I would have liked it as much. Maybe because I've grown used to using my imagination to "fill in the blanks" when it comes to the cast's expressions? I think it's kind of like the difference between reading a book or watching the film version: When you let someone else's imagination fill in the blanks, you miss out on letting your own do it for you.

In my head, something just feels iconic about the way BM would sometimes move his eyes. It even felt like there was a different "tone", if that word can in any way apply, in the characters "voice" when they raised their arms above their heads. With Thief, you knew it was because he was probably angry and calling someone out on something stupid. With RM, you know it was because he thought he had a great idea. With fighter, it was because he was happy.

They're all just simple pixels on a page. There is no movement, no tone of voice, no emotion at all. But it definitely wasn't just the words that carried everything. Or am I just some sorta psycho?

rpgdemon · 06-01-2010, 02:09 PM

Nah, I agree, and before even clicking this thread, thought that this is what it was gonna be about.

The epilogue is awesome, the art is awesome, et cetera, it's just odd how, even with the same person writing it and everything, everything feels -different- with non-pixel art.

bluestarultor · 06-01-2010, 02:19 PM

Part of it is because the emoting is turned down. Sprites, small sprites like the 8- and 16-bit era, need to emote and emote hard. Otherwise, it won't be visible. That's why the poses are so big and dynamic. Like stage makeup, they're super-flashy to be seen.

More realistic art just looks silly doing that. Real people don't emote that way, and you're at a higher level of realism.

It's the transition that highlights the differences. If hand-drawn, 8-Bit Theater could have been just as good, but it would have had a different feel.

Sliths · 06-01-2010, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

Part of it is because the emoting is turned down. Sprites, small sprites like the 8- and 16-bit era, need to emote and emote hard. Otherwise, it won't be visible. That's why the poses are so big and dynamic. Like stage makeup, they're super-flashy to be seen.

More realistic art just looks silly doing that. Real people don't emote that way, and you're at a higher level of realism.

It's the transition that highlights the differences. If hand-drawn, 8-Bit Theater could have been just as good, but it would have had a different feel.

While that is true, in this case I would say the artist's ability to draw put a ton of emotion into the characters while using exaggeration. He does it really well in How I killed your master, too. People don't actually move around the way he draws them, but it works really well because he gets their emotions down solidly.

Neni · 06-03-2010, 11:49 AM

Sprites are just a completly different Medium than handdrawn art and convey something completly different. That's why I think Brian's decision to use Matt's art for this last page was a wise one. It was such an epic end like this. Just BECAUSE it was a little more serious and detailed than the spritework.

I am reminded on (and excuse me for bringing up that other game series again) a fan-analysis about why Zelda: Wind Waker was such a shock to many fans. This fan suggested, it was that the characters suddenly had distinct facial expressions, whereas OoT just made very limited use of those. People felt stiffled in their own interpretation of the character's feelings and this resulted in their rejection of the new style. That's a nice conclusion in my opinion.

I think the same thing happened here. Many people imagined White Mage and the Light Warriors to have different expressions and features. That's why a few of them initially felt disappointed, like the Epilogue was "Not true to the characters".

As for me, I always imagined White Mage to be a little more shy in her expressions and with long hair, but I like the now-Canon version of her a lot as well.

Magic_Marker · 06-01-2010, 02:21 PM

In particular most of the characters seemed to have gained wisdom and perspective. All of 8-bit beforehand was about them not having those two things.

POS summed up Fighter's last statement comparing it to Calvin and Hobbes. This seems apt, even Fighter seems childlike and adventurous rather than dumb as bricks. It's not bad per se, just different. It give a different feel from the rest of the comics and I think it's approiate considering the fact that this is the last comic and a 3 year time lasp.

Observer · 06-01-2010, 02:47 PM

I agree, although only partially about the wisdom thing. It's more like they're starting to learn to "cope" with themselves. It's weird how the more restrained emoting from the hand drawn art probably helps carry this, although there's something about how it's funny to see the everyday suffering of the characters, but now that we're saying goodbye to them it's kind of nice to see them kind of "doin okay" for real, even a little bit. Maybe it wouldn't be as fun to know they were suffering without as there to laugh at their pain.

MSperoni · 06-03-2010, 11:56 AM

These were the initial options on White Mage's hair btw, I actually preferred the one on the lower right, and did a drawing of her and Black Mage with her with that hair-style, but Brian liked the top middle one the best so that's what I stuck with.

I really wanted everyone and everything to look "his" way. Well, at least the main people. Background characters like Akbar, Jeff, Hank, etc were up to my own devices.

The stuff about the sprites seemingly having more emotion because the readers have to project their own emotions on them is a really good observation. However the limits of sprites is they lack specific emotions and so the artist/writer is somewhat limited in expressing themselves. However due to the projected emotions on sprites, they become more "personal". Same thing I think goes with characters in books, and why when they're on the screen people are always disappointed. It's a battle you CAN'T win.

Only problem is the sprite's lack of specificity (especially 8-bit style) can make them seem incredibly dead. If Brian wasn't a good dialog writer this comic wouldn't have worked most of the time. I mean, if you go through some of the comics and just look at the panels without reading the dialog, a lot of the time they're just standing there. There's no emotion or expression or anything. In fact, I could see Brian's experience with this comic helping to make him into a good dialog writer, because most of the time that's the only thing holding this comic together.

Neni · 06-03-2010, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSperoni

These were the initial options on White Mage's hair btw, I actually preferred the one on the lower right, and did a drawing of her and Black Mage with her with that hair-style, but Brian liked the top middle one the best so that's what I stuck with.

I really wanted everyone and everything to look "his" way.

*Looks at the drawings*

SQUEEEE!!! ^^

Those are all so pretty...
The top-right one reminds me on Kingdom Hearts's Larxene for some reason...

Speroni, you are my Hero! Your style is so awesome... I would say "I hope I can draw like this one day" now, but since I needed almost 3 years to get halfway decent at drawing ANYTHING, this is probably never gonna happen. ^^;

ThatPoorMessenger · 06-03-2010, 12:03 PM

I would argue the bottom right looks a bit to "clean" for someone from a monastic order. They all would have worked, really. Although the top left is something I associate with male FF characters so...ehh, couldn't have imagined that one.
Although I cannot get my mind off those freckles...

06-01-2010, 01:37 PM	#1
Sliths Shyguy Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 122	Something the Epilogue showed me... Sprites vs 3D models. I know you could be thinking, "wrong board, jackass", but gimme a minute. I vaguely recall at one point nuklearpower had an article where Brian talked about how 3D Final Fantasy never really brought anything to gaming. I only vaguely remember the details of the article but if I recall the gist of it was that gaming lost something in the transition. I never, ever agreed. Until reading the epilogue. Of course I have no complaints about the epilogue, the writing and the art was fantastic. If in any part of my post you think I made this thread to whine or moan, read that previous sentence. Multiple times if you need to. It does strike me though that if 8-bit theater had been done hand drawn this entire time, I don't think I would have liked it as much. Maybe because I've grown used to using my imagination to "fill in the blanks" when it comes to the cast's expressions? I think it's kind of like the difference between reading a book or watching the film version: When you let someone else's imagination fill in the blanks, you miss out on letting your own do it for you. In my head, something just feels iconic about the way BM would sometimes move his eyes. It even felt like there was a different "tone", if that word can in any way apply, in the characters "voice" when they raised their arms above their heads. With Thief, you knew it was because he was probably angry and calling someone out on something stupid. With RM, you know it was because he thought he had a great idea. With fighter, it was because he was happy. They're all just simple pixels on a page. There is no movement, no tone of voice, no emotion at all. But it definitely wasn't just the words that carried everything. Or am I just some sorta psycho?

06-01-2010, 02:09 PM	#2
rpgdemon Not a Taco Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 3,313	Nah, I agree, and before even clicking this thread, thought that this is what it was gonna be about. The epilogue is awesome, the art is awesome, et cetera, it's just odd how, even with the same person writing it and everything, everything feels -different- with non-pixel art. __________________ I did a lot of posting on here as a teenager, and I was pretty awful. Even after I learned, grew up, and came to be on the right side of a lot of important issues, I was still angry, abrasive, and generally increased the amount of hate in the world, in pretty unacceptable ways. On the off chance that someone is taking a trip down memory lane looking through those old threads, I wanted to devote my signature to say directly to you, I'm sorry. Thank you for letting me be better, NPF.

06-03-2010, 11:49 AM	#5
Neni Troublesome Summoner turned 18 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: somewhere boring Posts: 553	Sprites are just a completly different Medium than handdrawn art and convey something completly different. That's why I think Brian's decision to use Matt's art for this last page was a wise one. It was such an epic end like this. Just BECAUSE it was a little more serious and detailed than the spritework. I am reminded on (and excuse me for bringing up that other game series again) a fan-analysis about why Zelda: Wind Waker was such a shock to many fans. This fan suggested, it was that the characters suddenly had distinct facial expressions, whereas OoT just made very limited use of those. People felt stiffled in their own interpretation of the character's feelings and this resulted in their rejection of the new style. That's a nice conclusion in my opinion. I think the same thing happened here. Many people imagined White Mage and the Light Warriors to have different expressions and features. That's why a few of them initially felt disappointed, like the Epilogue was "Not true to the characters". As for me, I always imagined White Mage to be a little more shy in her expressions and with long hair, but I like the now-Canon version of her a lot as well. __________________ I would put a Banner here, but all my Banners are either from Final Fantasy 9 or Zelda: the Wind Waker and I don't want to be slain by "mature" people.

06-01-2010, 02:47 PM	#7
Observer Troopa Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 38	I agree, although only partially about the wisdom thing. It's more like they're starting to learn to "cope" with themselves. It's weird how the more restrained emoting from the hand drawn art probably helps carry this, although there's something about how it's funny to see the everyday suffering of the characters, but now that we're saying goodbye to them it's kind of nice to see them kind of "doin okay" for real, even a little bit. Maybe it wouldn't be as fun to know they were suffering without as there to laugh at their pain. __________________ I added a signature to make it easier to tell when my posts end and my signature begins.

06-03-2010, 11:56 AM	#8
MSperoni Artist and Writer of Comics Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,666	These were the initial options on White Mage's hair btw, I actually preferred the one on the lower right, and did a drawing of her and Black Mage with her with that hair-style, but Brian liked the top middle one the best so that's what I stuck with. I really wanted everyone and everything to look "his" way. Well, at least the main people. Background characters like Akbar, Jeff, Hank, etc were up to my own devices. The stuff about the sprites seemingly having more emotion because the readers have to project their own emotions on them is a really good observation. However the limits of sprites is they lack specific emotions and so the artist/writer is somewhat limited in expressing themselves. However due to the projected emotions on sprites, they become more "personal". Same thing I think goes with characters in books, and why when they're on the screen people are always disappointed. It's a battle you CAN'T win. Only problem is the sprite's lack of specificity (especially 8-bit style) can make them seem incredibly dead. If Brian wasn't a good dialog writer this comic wouldn't have worked most of the time. I mean, if you go through some of the comics and just look at the panels without reading the dialog, a lot of the time they're just standing there. There's no emotion or expression or anything. In fact, I could see Brian's experience with this comic helping to make him into a good dialog writer, because most of the time that's the only thing holding this comic together. Attached Images __________________ I do commissions! So Email me if you'd like anything and we'll work out the details! matts_1104@yahoo.com Follow me on Twitter for Dreadful news and random info! (though mostly it's just me babbling about nerd-stuff) http://twitter.com/#!/mSperoni Check out my Deviant Art page if you'd like to see other pictures I've made! http://exmile.deviantart.com/ Follow The Dreadful on Facebook! Last edited by MSperoni; 06-03-2010 at 12:05 PM.

06-01-2010, 02:21 PM	#6
Magic_Marker Moonwalk Away. Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Dumbfucklahoma. Posts: 1,573	In particular most of the characters seemed to have gained wisdom and perspective. All of 8-bit beforehand was about them not having those two things. POS summed up Fighter's last statement comparing it to Calvin and Hobbes. This seems apt, even Fighter seems childlike and adventurous rather than dumb as bricks. It's not bad per se, just different. It give a different feel from the rest of the comics and I think it's approiate considering the fact that this is the last comic and a 3 year time lasp.

06-03-2010, 12:03 PM	#10
ThatPoorMessenger Lurking Good. Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: I'll tell you when I know what dimension, time, existence this is. Posts: 192	I would argue the bottom right looks a bit to "clean" for someone from a monastic order. They all would have worked, really. Although the top left is something I associate with male FF characters so...ehh, couldn't have imagined that one. Although I cannot get my mind off those freckles...