Order and Chaos: Source of both Creation and Destruction

Aerozord · 02-28-2005, 07:37 PM

I assume you know of the meta-physical concepts of Order, chaos, creation, destruction. First to break things down. Order is logic, control, and law. Chaos is emotion, freedom, and anarchy.

Now humans naturally have both elements, as does society as a whole. However I began looking at how these two conflicting concepts interact in the human psyche. More spacifically my own. I am a person who has high pressence of both concepts. I have found in any, and especial conditions like mine, there are two out comes and as a rule both are present in everyone.

When two oppisite forces meet each other the result is often destruction. A personified example would be what happens when you shove a hippy and a conservative into the same room and say, "how do you feel about legalizing drugs". Nothing gets acomplished and only conflict and destruction can result.

However there is of course a another outcome. You can merge the concepts melding them into one and embrasing the best qualities in both. My example is invention. Without the imagination of chaos nothing new can come forth, but without the logic of order you can never make the idea work.

Thus both creation and destruction can both be created by the opposing forces of Order and Chaos.

well thats all I am saying for now. Please forgive any misspellings. I just had to put this concept on the floor, sure most of you already realized this.

oh and foot note I didn't know where to stick this paragraph

These two forces can never truely overcome the other. In a tyranical society for example, anarchy and freedom movements take place and topple such reigms. In a case where there is no control leadership will take place and humans natural desire for order creates law and structure.

DragonLord · 03-01-2005, 02:05 AM

OK but you never really asked a question or anything. This is a statement. What are we supposed to talk about. Its like.... yeah, ok, and... whats your point.

Robot Jesus · 03-01-2005, 04:48 AM

I might as well say something. Nietzsche said that mankind does not have the capacity to improve but only to destroy an recreate. Without destruction there can only be stagnation. But through destruction we can rebuild and create. I wouldn�t say its 100% true, but about 87%.

Hamelin · 03-01-2005, 11:15 AM

Well... if we're looking at matter, technically, regardless of what we or anything else does, things will always eventually descend into chaos. Chaotic systems are innately much more stable than ordered systems, due to the lower level of potential energy contained in a chaotic system. The Second Law of Thermodynamics covers this.

Quote:

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy. A watchspring-driven watch will run until the potential energy in the spring is converted, and not again until energy is reapplied to the spring to rewind it. A car that has run out of gas will not run again until you walk 10 miles to a gas station and refuel the car. Once the potential energy locked in carbohydrates is converted into kinetic energy (energy in use or motion), the organism will get no more until energy is input again. In the process of energy transfer, some energy will dissipate as heat. Entropy is a measure of disorder: cells are NOT disordered and so have low entropy. The flow of energy maintains order and life. Entropy wins when organisms cease to take in energy and die.

Basically, there's no such thing as a force of order. To attempt to bring order to any material thing is to temporarily hold off the inevitable decay into chaos. Right now the sun is the thing that is holding off entropy, but eventually that will burn out, as will (hypothetically) all the other stars in the universe. If given enough time, the universe would mearly be a jumble of single atoms floating around, all at a consistantly equal level of heat.

Entropy always wins. Time makes fools of us all, it seems.

Aerozord · 03-01-2005, 01:44 PM

actually my point was not that of nature itself. Laws of physics govern everything. Random events are simple illusions that we precieve of random (chaos theory).

I am making the point of human thinking and society.

Oh and there is no question. I just needed to vent is all. If you wanna discuss go ahead

Hamelin · 03-01-2005, 03:25 PM

Humanity is part of nature, is it not?

As above, as below, eh? What applies to the greatest scale of things applies to us lowly humans as well no? My point was that it takes extensive effort to keep some sort of order to things, and if that effort (or energy) is removed, everything crashes down.

The most fascist governments have to keep a near-constant watch on the people of that nation because the smallest chink in that effort could make the entire system crumble to dust, at least until another person or group expends the energy to bring back some sort of order.

Sato · 03-01-2005, 03:48 PM

Let me say this:

Humans don't understand random, our brains work off connections and draw conclusions.

The_Bear · 03-01-2005, 06:50 PM

About law and chaos, I feel that there is a balance between them. Without order, what would be chaos? Without chaos, what would be order? It's all a matter of perspective. Too much of either is devastating, as seen by dictatorships (order) and anarchies (chaos).

It's the same with creation and destruction too. Without creation, there is nothing to destroy. If nothing is ever destroyed, there is nothing new to create. Wihout both, neither can exist.

If you can't tell by now, I typically play true neutral characters

.

RedScar · 03-01-2005, 07:10 PM

First of all chaos is not emotion, freedom, and anarchy. Or at least acorring to me. What you described would be more along the lines of pre creation. Or the planing of creation. But I see chaos as this

Now the wayyou describe chaos I think you could be droped of in the middle of nowhere and have to survive. You'd have freedow to plan live and create a house, a home, a life. Make tools to survive. With your order you use the laws of nature to live. Also I belive this is another way to describe Chaos

*Spolier for gamers* (Invisible)
HP:20,000
ATK:170
ACC:200
DEF:100
AGI:50
INT:40
EVA:100
M. DEF: 200
GIL:0
EXP:0
TREASURE:None

Aerozord · 03-01-2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedScar

First of all chaos is not emotion, freedom, and anarchy. Or at least acorring to me. What you described would be more along the lines of pre creation. Or the planing of creation. But I see chaos as this

Order is lack of chaos, chaos is lack of order. Freedom and emotion are chaos because they are not controled. If they were they would cease to be. Your brain is seperated in actuality between these two. Right is chaos, the abstract concepts of color, imagination, emotions while your left is in control of things like numbers, systems, and logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedScar

*Spolier for gamers* (Invisible)
HP:20,000
ATK:170
ACC:200
DEF:100
AGI:50
INT:40
EVA:100
M. DEF: 200
GIL:0
EXP:0
TREASURE:None

I dont even know where you were going with that...oh wait, now I do....*cough*

02-28-2005, 07:37 PM	#1
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	Order and Chaos: Source of both Creation and Destruction I assume you know of the meta-physical concepts of Order, chaos, creation, destruction. First to break things down. Order is logic, control, and law. Chaos is emotion, freedom, and anarchy. Now humans naturally have both elements, as does society as a whole. However I began looking at how these two conflicting concepts interact in the human psyche. More spacifically my own. I am a person who has high pressence of both concepts. I have found in any, and especial conditions like mine, there are two out comes and as a rule both are present in everyone. When two oppisite forces meet each other the result is often destruction. A personified example would be what happens when you shove a hippy and a conservative into the same room and say, "how do you feel about legalizing drugs". Nothing gets acomplished and only conflict and destruction can result. However there is of course a another outcome. You can merge the concepts melding them into one and embrasing the best qualities in both. My example is invention. Without the imagination of chaos nothing new can come forth, but without the logic of order you can never make the idea work. Thus both creation and destruction can both be created by the opposing forces of Order and Chaos. well thats all I am saying for now. Please forgive any misspellings. I just had to put this concept on the floor, sure most of you already realized this. oh and foot note I didn't know where to stick this paragraph These two forces can never truely overcome the other. In a tyranical society for example, anarchy and freedom movements take place and topple such reigms. In a case where there is no control leadership will take place and humans natural desire for order creates law and structure. __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

03-01-2005, 02:05 AM	#2
DragonLord Digimon Lover Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Taos New Mexico Posts: 26	OK but you never really asked a question or anything. This is a statement. What are we supposed to talk about. Its like.... yeah, ok, and... whats your point. __________________ Flying amidst the plains, swinging an oversized fireblade, cometh DragonLord! And he gives a low roar: "I'm going to hump you with such disregard for common sense, your reincarnation will be a scientific anomaly!!!"

03-01-2005, 04:48 AM	#3
Robot Jesus Libertarian Socialist Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 377	I might as well say something. Nietzsche said that mankind does not have the capacity to improve but only to destroy an recreate. Without destruction there can only be stagnation. But through destruction we can rebuild and create. I wouldn�t say its 100% true, but about 87%. __________________ We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. ---Richard Dawkins there was only one true Christian, and he died on the cross. ---Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche These are rumors spread by the liberal, elite media. Much like civil rights and Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion.

03-01-2005, 01:44 PM	#5
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	actually my point was not that of nature itself. Laws of physics govern everything. Random events are simple illusions that we precieve of random (chaos theory). I am making the point of human thinking and society. Oh and there is no question. I just needed to vent is all. If you wanna discuss go ahead __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

03-01-2005, 03:25 PM	#6
Hamelin OMG! Sea Monster! Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 881	Humanity is part of nature, is it not? As above, as below, eh? What applies to the greatest scale of things applies to us lowly humans as well no? My point was that it takes extensive effort to keep some sort of order to things, and if that effort (or energy) is removed, everything crashes down. The most fascist governments have to keep a near-constant watch on the people of that nation because the smallest chink in that effort could make the entire system crumble to dust, at least until another person or group expends the energy to bring back some sort of order. __________________ daily deviations

03-01-2005, 03:48 PM	#7
Sato Now With Less Spam Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: In a nutshell Posts: 168	Let me say this: Humans don't understand random, our brains work off connections and draw conclusions. __________________ They say you can measure a man by his deeds, but isn't a ruler easier? Someday, a webcomic should spawn from the deeps of my incomprehensible mind and be bestown on you. If this plan happens and my decent hand drawing style appeases you all, please feel free to give me a small parade for actually not procrastinating and going against my ideals. That or a cookie. Be like Link, just say no to pot. (That or smash it up with your sword.)

03-01-2005, 06:50 PM	#8
The_Bear Using the same avatar since 2003 Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nobody reads this line. Posts: 759	About law and chaos, I feel that there is a balance between them. Without order, what would be chaos? Without chaos, what would be order? It's all a matter of perspective. Too much of either is devastating, as seen by dictatorships (order) and anarchies (chaos). It's the same with creation and destruction too. Without creation, there is nothing to destroy. If nothing is ever destroyed, there is nothing new to create. Wihout both, neither can exist. If you can't tell by now, I typically play true neutral characters . __________________ Why yes, I am tehmazing. Thank you for noticing.

03-01-2005, 07:10 PM	#9
RedScar Just another NPF ghost Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Califorina, you heard me right. Posts: 694	First of all chaos is not emotion, freedom, and anarchy. Or at least acorring to me. What you described would be more along the lines of pre creation. Or the planing of creation. But I see chaos as this Now the wayyou describe chaos I think you could be droped of in the middle of nowhere and have to survive. You'd have freedow to plan live and create a house, a home, a life. Make tools to survive. With your order you use the laws of nature to live. Also I belive this is another way to describe Chaos Spolier for gamers (Invisible) HP:20,000 ATK:170 ACC:200 DEF:100 AGI:50 INT:40 EVA:100 M. DEF: 200 GIL:0 EXP:0 TREASURE:None __________________ I'm officaly saying it now. Due to me becomeing an MMO addict (Final Fantasy XI) I will be here not often. If you see me you are lucky. True geeks know what it is to be the friend who listens. Sensitive, intelligent, beautiful girls come to us for meaningful talk and profound empathy, then go back to their idiot boyfriends for wild, monkey sex. We need to talk less and workout more, fellas. -Joe Dodson