Filler? I don't even know 'er! aka the fuck-Bleach [SPOILERS] megathread!

[Lithp]

It wasn't foreshadowed.

Debatable, but that's not what bothers you about it.

It wasn't interesting.

A matter of debate. I'm sure Yammy fans love it.

Stark being the Primera worked because we knew there was a Primera. We knew that it had to be one of three characters. In addition, the parallels between Stark and Captain Bro gave good reason to believe that Stark would be one of the strongest Espada if not the strongest.

Those all sound like rather flimsy reasoning, to me. Hell, let me do some Devil's Advocate for Yammy:

Ulquiorra mentioned that Yammy was conserving energy for a reason. We knew that there were 10 Espada, no credible witness actually told us that the numbers ordinarily went from 1-10. It appeared that Yammy was the weakest Espada, but Aizen "appeared" to be dead.

This is a legitimately bad plot event, and it's made worse for involving the worst character.

Are you even trying to be objective?

With Bleach, I'm generally willing to suspend my disbelief provided it's cool. This idea is more or less the basis for bankais in general. "Why did his sword turn into a billion flower petals that kill you?" "Because it's cool." This wasn't a good plot twist, and it had nothing going for it to make me tolerate its stupidity.

I'm not saying that I think it was a good idea, I'm just saying that there's nothing that makes it any worse than some of the elements of the story that -I- arbitrarily choose to think are good.

Throwing in a meaningless, poorly written plot device because "it's a joke" is bad writing.

Yes, but Yammy's release barely qualifies as a plot device in the first place.

Since when were you under the impression that I cared what everyone else was doing?

You're currently engaged in promoting 2 Bandwagon Views about Bleach: That Yammy being the 10th Espada is stupid & that Bleach does a lot of badly written plot devices.

Alright, so it's unfair for me to say that you would complain about the battle raging on, but you have to admit that I have some grounds to speculate that outcome.

Aizen being responsible for every damn thing and knowing everything really strains my suspension of disbelief.

I see this as a double-edged sword. On one hand, it does come across as kind of ridiculous. On the other hand, there was a REALLY irritating plot hole regarding how Aizen didn't know about anything that was going on for a hundred years. It hasn't been completely filled yet, but that was some progress. Really, it didn't bother me THAT much, but suspension of disbelief is different for everyone.

Sometimes I make joke predictions about Bleach. It's a thing I do.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough there. I'd assumed that the predictions were jokes--funny ones, I might add--but people at least seem to be suggesting that they're valid. I don't know, it's hard to tell that sort of thing on the internet.

Captain Bro's bankai being Calvinball.

That just confused me even more.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Lithp

You're currently engaged in promoting 2 Bandwagon Views about Bleach: That Yammy being the 10th Espada is stupid & that Bleach does a lot of badly written plot devices.

Alright, so it's unfair for me to say that you would complain about the battle raging on, but you have to admit that I have some grounds to speculate that outcome.

No. No, you do not. Your entire argument for this is that I believe two things that other people believe. You unfairly turn this into me believing them because other people believe them, and rudely and dismissively act as though I'll go along with whatever the popular opinion is. Even if you claim that was not your intent, that was the implication of your post. I could make very similar arguments for your position on things, but they'd be very stupid arguments. There is no excuse for doing something like that.

That just confused me even more.

Captain Bro is the one who fought Brospada. (AKA Stark)

In terms of actual predictions about Bleach, I still think that Isshin is from the past, and got knocked into the distant future by that train thingy. Well, it at least seems reasonable, and to me would explain a lot of things that aren't yet answered.

[Lithp]

Even if you claim that was not your intent, that was the implication of your post.

The intent was one of correlation, not causality, but you're right.

I could make very similar arguments for your position on things, but they'd be very stupid arguments.

No, you really couldn't.

There is no excuse for doing something like that.

Being serious for a minute, I am sorry about that. As I said, I didn't mean to imply that you went along with a view simply because it was popular, just that your argument tends to coincide with that popular opinion. It was an extremely glaring oversight on my part to phrase my argument the way I did. As you probably saw from my thing about the predictions, I unfortunately have a tendency to make these. Again, I apologize for offending you.

Captain Bro is the one who fought Brospada. (AKA Stark)

Then what the Hell is a Calvinball?

In terms of actual predictions about Bleach, I still think that Isshin is from the past, and got knocked into the distant future by that train thingy.

Then how would he have survived that?

Well, it at least seems reasonable, and to me would explain a lot of things that aren't yet answered.

Howso?

Also, I find it interesting that you didn't comment on my viewpoint that Ulquiorra was the real strongest Espada.

[greed]

Originally Posted by Lithp

Then what the Hell is a Calvinball?

.... what a depressing and wonderless life you must have lead. Read Calvin and Hobbes.

Yammy being number zero was dumb for a number of reasons that NonCon's already outlined. The real problem with Bleach though is simple. Aizen is a terrible villain. He's boring and generic to an absurd degree. He's stupidly powerful, makes any fight he's in crappy because of it (I mean he made a fight involving Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin some of the best characters in the series utterly terrible) and does ridiculously cliche shit for no goddamn reason (killing Tousen and Halibel, both of whom were better written and more generally interesting than him). And pretty much anytime he shows up it becomes really obvious how much Kubo is pulling shit out of his ass. This whole series would have been way better if Aizen actually died basically.

Also his super forms involve him wearing man size condom and then growing a mullet. WTF

[Lithp]

Yammy being number zero was dumb for a number of reasons that NonCon's already outlined.

"I think Yammy is a bad character" is not a good reason, even if you state it as a fact.

The real problem with Bleach though is simple. Aizen is a terrible villain.

You shut the goddamn Hell up.

But seriously, Aizen's kinda one of my favorite villains of all time.

He's boring and generic to an absurd degree.

Easy argument to make for anyone. I, however, would like to point out that much of TV Tropes's 36 Stratagems article IS Aizen.

He's stupidly powerful, makes any fight he's in crappy because of it (I mean he made a fight involving Urahara, Yoruichi and Isshin some of the best characters in the series utterly terrible)

I feel the need to point out that this is AFTER subjugating the Hougyokou. Before that, he had weaknesses & was very aware of them.

and does ridiculously cliche shit for no goddamn reason (killing Tousen and Halibel

Much of his MO lately has been pissing people off so that they make stupid mistakes, so there was a reason with Tosen, especially because he could no longer fight. A lot of people miss that subtlety. It's only a strategic disadvantage if you're actually losing fighting capacity. With that said, killing Halibel may have been pointless & somewhat cliche, but that's hardly enough to turn me against him.

both of whom were better written and more generally interesting than him).

You're kidding, right?

And pretty much anytime he shows up it becomes really obvious how much Kubo is pulling shit out of his ass.

Would it be worth noting Aizen's numerous & rather brilliant strategies? Or that we've known that he was going to use the Hougyokou to increase his power for-fucking-ever?

This whole series would have been way better if Aizen actually died basically.

So that the innovative plot twist would have been replaced with an obvious "reveal" that Gin was behind everything, then go on to do probably exactly the same thing?

[greed]

The problem with the strategies thing is, most of them only work cause he's so overwhelmingly powerful that he doesn't actually need them.

I mean yeah killing Tousen did piss off the dog guy and the sunglasses guy. But they were both so much weaker than Aizen that even if they acted as intelligently as possible he'd still go LOL HYPNOSIS or LOL CAN'T CUT ME and still win. Yeah the strategems are kind of cool but they're unecessary and just reinforce the fact he's so ungodly powerful he's really trolling the good guys more than fighting them. Basically the strategems would be an awesome gimmick if he pulled them off when he was actually anywhere near equal to his enemies in strength or his shikai wasn't so ungodly broken.

And what weakness' has he got? The one and only time he's been put on a back foot in the entire freaking series was during an off panel battle with Isshin and he then became CONDOM MAN two panels later and engaged in the dumbest goddamn fight in the series. If they at least showed these weaknesses and why he uses these plans it might help. Like if we got one chapter of him getting his ass handed to him by Captain Genocide back in SS to explain why he did that roundabout plan with Wonderweiss, or we got to see Isshin rough him up (and honestly I still don't see how that worked, if Aizen uses his shikai he should automatically win, unless Isshin has a counter to it, which if he does that should have been shown to explain how Aizen was losing cause at the moment it's just frustrating and looks like Aizen was faking it for his own amusement).

Yeah sorry, I just hate ridiculously overpowering villains that hog the spotlight everytime they appear. Like it would be fine if he used the strategems but was only about as strong as Ichigo so the strategems were how he actually won rather than just something he seems to do cause he's bored. Or if he was a power mad idiot who only won by the skin of his teeth because of his extreme power. That would be better writing as the fights would actually have some tension and interest in them. As it is everytime Aizen shows up you know no one is ever going to do anything to inconvenience him. Or he had a more interesting character than "arrogant calm powerful guy who wants to be god and kills his subordinates when they stop being useful". If he had a better personality or a less cliche goal he'd be better.

And yeah okay the Tousen and Halibel bit was hyperbole. They're all pretty badly written. Tousen and Halibel have the advantage of not being another boring psychopath with dreams of apotheosis though. I mean really how often does that character come up? It's boring, even Naruto's "war scarred lunatic ending strife through Instrumentality" is a less beaten horse.

Also the "obvious reveal" that Gin was behind everything at least would have meant that that total hypnosis cancer never got introduced to the plot.

[Aerozord]

What I liked best about Halibel was how she died. None of that cliche' "but why?" crap, no her instinct was the stab Aizen in the face.

Honestly I dont think Aizen killing people off was a bad idea, but a stroke of genre savvy. Remember one of the laws of shonen manga, after a fight, everyone is friends. They were beaten, or in Halibel's case, about to be. Tousen even showed regret which is normally the last stage before a full heel face turn. They couldn't be of help anymore so might as well make sure they dont turn against him. Which again, in most series is a reasonable conclusion

[Fenris]

Nonsie- I generally agree with what you're saying except for this line:

Originally Posted by NonCon

Kubo just did it because he thought it was funny, which is the opposite of good writing..

"Good writing" isn't nearly so black and white as "the author thought it was funny, therefore bad."

No no no, it was bad writing because it was stupid. Not 'cause Kubo thought it was funny.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Lithp

Then how would he have survived that?

Honestly, how he would survive it is completely irrelevant. Kubo has shown that if he needs an explanation for something, he is always able to pull one out of his ass. Just because it hasn't been established how he could have survived it doesn't mean there's not a way.

Howso?

Particularly how Isshin is apparently Captain class, but nobody except the characters who know everything seem to know who he is. He was able to hurt Aizen, so these other characters should know who a character that strong is. He has more detailed knowledge of how the time thingy works than has previously been established by the other characters, which would make sense if something involving it happened to him.

My only other real theories at this point are that nobody knew about him because Kubo wills it (AKA bad writing), or that he's the guy Kenpachi defeated, because I don't think it's shown that character, so everyone just assumed he was dead.

Also, I find it interesting that you didn't comment on my viewpoint that Ulquiorra was the real strongest Espada.

Because I wanted to go to bed and I was tired of arguing with you.

[Lithp]

Honestly I dont think Aizen killing people off was a bad idea, but a stroke of genre savvy. Remember one of the laws of shonen manga, after a fight, everyone is friends. They were beaten, or in Halibel's case, about to be. Tousen even showed regret which is normally the last stage before a full heel face turn. They couldn't be of help anymore so might as well make sure they dont turn against him. Which again, in most series is a reasonable conclusion.

Heh, that's a funny way to view it. But yeah, that's another thing. A lot of these alleged "lame death scenes" a lot of people (no one here, to the best of my knowledge) seem to complain about are actually pretty epic.

Just because it hasn't been established how he could have survived it doesn't mean there's not a way.

I was just wondering if you'd speculated on that. Well, it's all circumstantial evidence, but that doesn't mean you aren't on to something. Interesting theory.

Because I wanted to go to bed and I was tired of arguing with you.

So you're not the least bit interested? Or did I already mention it somewhere? I forget.

The problem with the strategies thing is, most of them only work cause he's so overwhelmingly powerful that he doesn't actually need them.

I respectfully disagree. When he was surprised by Yamamoto's level 90 Kido thing*, he lost his distance from Ichigo, & when that happened, he got hit by a Getsuga Tensho, which actually left a pretty deep wound. Ichigo was right--had Aizen not had the Hougyokou, he may have lost, or at least had to retreat.

But I can see how that would bother you.

*=Okay, this was kind of bad writing. It bothered me how Yamamoto maintained he could never be beaten by Aizen, but all of his plans involved going Kamikaze on his ass.

And what weakness' has he got?

It's not like I can name traits like "he has a clubbed foot." It's more in how he fights. The way he was clearly aware that he could be injured by Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho, the way he protected his blind spot, & so forth. You don't do these kinds of things if you're truly overpowered. If you're truly overpowered, you just plain don't get injured.

Like if we got one chapter of him getting his ass handed to him by Captain Genocide back in SS to explain why he did that roundabout plan with Wonderweiss

I can explain it: He's not stupid. Who the dick would fight with someone who is basically swinging around his own personal nuke without taking out that advantage?

or we got to see Isshin rough him up

Eh, this could have been shown in more detail, but I don't see why people make such a big deal over these transition scenes.

Or he had a more interesting character than "arrogant calm powerful guy who wants to be god and kills his subordinates when they stop being useful". If he had a better personality or a less cliche goal he'd be better.

To each his own. Seneca once said that there are "no new ideas." He was an ancient Greek. Anyway, I will admit, I'd like to see some more development to Aizen, but the series isn't over yet.

Naruto's "war scarred lunatic ending strife through Instrumentality" is a less beaten horse.

Please tell me you don't mean Madara. Pain was good. Orochimaru was good. Hell, the rest of the Akatsuki wasn't that bad. But there is absolutely NO chance that Madara is better written than any character in Bleach or, well, probably ANYTHING.

Also the "obvious reveal" that Gin was behind everything at least would have meant that that total hypnosis cancer never got introduced to the plot.

I'm still not seeing how this would have been the better scenario.