Pokemon Umbral Discussion 38: Shenanigans At Dawn, Sir!

[Dracorion]

Sure, that's how it used to be.

Except with the AP system, I don't see any reason why Slayers or Pokebrids couldn't attack twice, or Trainers could attack three times. They still have to decide whether they want to use their AP to attack or if they want to use a Love Tech or a Signature Technique or an item and shit.

In fact, the only actions in the system that specify how many times they can be used are items, Paradigm Shift, RPDAs and Overdrives.

[Menarker]

Testament Drive doesn't seem to have been given an AP cost. Or is that meant to be rage specific?

I'd imagine we'd all get the "Stall Action" so we can opt to save our AP for the next turn.

So I imagine that the new purpose of rage is to enhance or alter how the actions paid for by AP activates? Let's say that I activate Serene Blessing. I wouldn't need to pay the initial cost because that's part of the AP now, but rage can be used to extend the Protect effect to other people. Or if Impact attacks, he has to pay the cost of 25 rage as well to convert that basic attack into a sweep. Am I grasping this correctly AB?

Although technically, Serene Blessing is currently incompatible with the AP system since it also allows the trainer to attack as normal, basically making it a free action.


Although that's going to be tricky to do with Valiant Rush, which part of the entire purpose is to be flexible to the point that if the situation is TRULY DESPERATE, it could even feasibly be paid for free.
However, I guess there will be time to fix that, since I don't plan to get that move until late game anyhow.

[Dracorion]

About Testament Drives, AB. Maybe you should post some sort of guidelines about them? Otherwise, we're just giving trainers 50 Rage Signature Techniques, as many as they have Legendaries.

Anyway. Pierce's Trainer Actions. I want to get you guys' approval before I put them in orange for AB.

Combined Attack: Pick one of Pierce's pokemon from the field. That pokemon's attack move gains the same type as Pierce's other pokemon's primary type, but the power stays the same.

Okay, this one's crappily worded. Basically, say Tyranitar and Blaziken are out. Tyranitar uses Earthquake and Pierce uses Combined Attack. Tyranitar's Earthquake is now Ground/Fire, and the move's power stays the same.

Create Opening: One of Pierce's pokemon can attack one more time, at 50% power.

Five-Star Deluxe Special: Chizuru cooks up a meal for both of Pierce's pokemon on the field. A small regenerative effect is applied to them.

Trainer Attack: Pierce attacks alongside one of his pokemon. That pokemon's attack has 2x chance of being inflicted with the status associated to Pierce's weapon.

Basically, since Pierce's weapons are the Dragon Slave and the Phantom Staff, one pokemon's attack would either have a 100% chance to decrease the target's Special Defense by -1, or a 50% chance of instant death.

Remember Your Training! Both of Pierce's pokemon on the field gain +1 Attack and Special Attack.

Thoughts?

[Menarker]

The problems I'm kinda having with most of these are that most of them are strong enough to be pokemon attacks when I was under the impression that they were supposed to be not quite that powerful. It would especially help if you didn't have all five of them.

I know AB said trainers could have 5 of these, but I think it was meant to be like a point system where you could make up to 5 techniques, but you have to allot points between them so it all balances out.
For example, let's say you had 30 points to divide among. You could max out and have one technique but really strong. (30 points) 5 weak techniques (6 points each), 3 decent techniques (10 points each) a powerful one and a weak one (a 25 and a 5 point)... that sort of thing.


Combined Attack: I'd imagine there would be lots of confusion and arguments over how it would work. If a flying type would be attacked by your proposed example, is it immune because the attack is part ground? And the biggest thing is? There is an easier way to implement the effect you want. Basically, you want to enable the fire typing onto Tyranitar's move while using Tyranitar's stats instead of Blaziken's stats and presumably keep STAB because it is part ground, right?
If that is the case, basically just say:
1) The main attacker attack gets divided into two like Double Hit (dividing power in half respectively for each hit).
2) The first hit being the type of the move the attacking pokemon (Tyranitar in this case) uses. The second hit being the primary type of the second pokemon (Blaziken in this case). Thus, the first hit would be ground and the second one would be fire with your example.
3) The total base power is equal to the move that it is based on.
4) All bonuses such as STAB that apply to the first hit also apply to the second even if it wouldn't normally. Both hits use the attack or special attack stat of the main attacker. (Technically, Tyranitar is a rock/dark type so no STAB with your previous example.)

Is that within reason of what you were hoping to do? If so, I would approve of this since it's basically a conversion of element types. We can all pretend it is one hit if you want, but just proposing something that is easier to work the math out of.


Create Opening: I'm rejecting it, because that's basically a free Helping Hand with more diversity, an extra chance of proccing any special effects the move being used has and that's before considering that that second move could be a status move like Protect or WilloWisp or something that doesn't rely on power.


Five Star Deluxe Special: Honestly seems weak. Regeneration effects like Leftovers are kinda like the old Trainer Attacks where it was difficult to see the effect (so small it is almost non-existant) being useful in this environment with tons of attackers and the likihood of being ganged up on. I wouldn't reject it, but I would advise you to think of something a bit stronger, although I can understand that's tricky to do...


Trainer Attack: Even Slayer weapons didn't have that much chance of proccing the special effects. It was 50% chance of lowering Special Defense and 25% chance of Instant Death. This technically is better than Slayer's weapons, which means it's too strong in my view. Yes, Pierce's attack power isn't that high compared to a Slayer, but Instant Death would make that moot in the first place and with guaranteed debuff, other PCs or pokemons would rush to make short work of the foe. Rejected.


Remember Your Training: Basically an attack version of Cosmic Power that doesn't require an action or a move slot. In a heavy attacking setting as this one, this also sets off alarms of sort. AB's example for Charlotte used the risky Crit stat, damaged her pokemon a tiny bit and only lasted for the turn.

I thought trainer actions are supposed to be very minor effects. Stuff like minor buffs that only last for that turn or a simple conversion, or a desireable boost that only has significant effect over several turns.

[Astral Harmony]

Understood. No AP system. Now that I got enough sleep, I figure it wouldn't really help us anymore than what we've already got.

This afternoon, I'll go through this thread and look at all the suggestions for the various classes.

To finish this post off, if I'm going to let you customize the advanced classes, you might as well customize your own demon classes as well.

But. BUT!! Let me create the demon classes first. That way we all have a guideline where he can alter them while keeping the same general level of power intact.

Anyways, I've gotta get to work soon. I may be able to post one more time, but don't count on it for now.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Menarker

The problems I'm kinda having with most of these are that most of them are strong enough to be pokemon attacks when I was under the impression that they were supposed to be not quite that powerful. It would especially help if you didn't have all five of them.

Okay, clearly I went overboard. I was trying to aim for something different from just pure damage.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Combined Attack: I'd imagine there would be lots of confusion and arguments over how it would work. If a flying type would be attacked by your proposed example, is it immune because the attack is part ground? And the biggest thing is? There is an easier way to implement the effect you want. Basically, you want to enable the fire typing onto Tyranitar's move while using Tyranitar's stats instead of Blaziken's stats and presumably keep STAB because it is part ground, right?
If that is the case, basically just say:
1) The main attacker attack gets divided into two like Double Hit (dividing power in half respectively for each hit).
2) The first hit being the type of the move the attacking pokemon (Tyranitar in this case) uses. The second hit being the primary type of the second pokemon (Blaziken in this case). Thus, the first hit would be ground and the second one would be fire with your example.
3) The total base power is equal to the move that it is based on.
4) All bonuses such as STAB that apply to the first hit also apply to the second even if it wouldn't normally. Both hits use the attack or special attack stat of the main attacker. (Technically, Tyranitar is a rock/dark type so no STAB with your previous example.)

Is that within reason of what you were hoping to do? If so, I would approve of this since it's basically a conversion of element types. We can all pretend it is one hit if you want, but just proposing something that is easier to work the math out of.

Yeah, that works best.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Create Opening: I'm rejecting it, because that's basically a free Helping Hand with more diversity, an extra chance of proccing any special effects the move being used has and that's before considering that that second move could be a status move like Protect or WilloWisp or something that doesn't rely on power.

Crap, I totally forgot about Helping Hand. I suppose I could make it 25%, but that would make it useless, wouldn't it?

Maybe I'll just scrap this one.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Five Star Deluxe Special: Honestly seems weak. Regeneration effects like Leftovers are kinda like the old Trainer Attacks where it was difficult to see the effect (so small it is almost non-existant) being useful in this environment with tons of attackers and the likihood of being ganged up on. I wouldn't reject it, but I would advise you to think of something a bit stronger, although I can understand that's tricky to do...

Buff the regeneration or add status removal/immunity/resistance, do you think?

Originally Posted by Menarker

Trainer Attack: Even Slayer weapons didn't have that much chance of proccing the special effects. It was 50% chance of lowering Special Defense and 25% chance of Instant Death. This technically is better than Slayer's weapons, which means it's too strong in my view. Yes, Pierce's attack power isn't that high compared to a Slayer, but Instant Death would make that moot in the first place and with guaranteed debuff, other PCs or pokemons would rush to make short work of the foe. Rejected.

Actually, Pierce's attack power wouldn't influence the damage at all.

But yeah, I see your point, that isn't saying much. How about if instead it's a normal pokemon move with the same chance to cause one of the statuses, depending on the weapon Pierce uses?

Originally Posted by Menarker

Remember Your Training: Basically an attack version of Cosmic Power that doesn't require an action or a move slot. In a heavy attacking setting as this one, this also sets off alarms of sort. AB's example for Charlotte used the risky Crit stat, damaged her pokemon a tiny bit and only lasted for the turn.

Crap, I forgot to mention when I proposed it: it's only supposed to take effect on the turn it's used.

Does that help a bit?

Though, it occurs to me that for those purposes a straight up damage buff would be simpler.

Originally Posted by Armored Bishoujo

Understood. No AP system. Now that I got enough sleep, I figure it wouldn't really help us anymore than what we've already got.

Sleep is for the weak!

Originally Posted by Armored Bishoujo

To finish this post off, if I'm going to let you customize the advanced classes, you might as well customize your own demon classes as well.

Cool!

Originally Posted by Armored Bishoujo

But. BUT!! Let me create the demon classes first. That way we all have a guideline where he can alter them while keeping the same general level of power intact.

I'M SORRY I DIDN'T HEAR YOU OVER MY WILDLY OVERPOWERED DEMON UPGRADES FOR PIERCE OH WOW THIS STUFF IS SO BROKEN IT PHYSICALLY HURTS.

[Menarker]

Regarding Combined Attack: Glad you approve.

Regarding Create Opening: Yeah, might wanna scrap it.

Regarding Five Star Deluxe: I'd suggest that you choose a single pokemon for that turn and the food nourishes and motivates it so well, it gains the "Filter" ability until the end of turn. (Filter reduces the damage of Super Effective moves by a quarter) It's strong, it's impossible to exploit since all you're doing is mitigating a bad situation (still worse than being hit with neutral attacks), and it may or may not come in handy since the pokemons might be hit with not-effective or neutral attacks or not even attacked at all.

Regarding Trainer Attack: How exactly? Pierce is not a pokemon and I didn't think that the weapons he wields could create a pokemon attack either. And how would you choose the pokemon moves or is there even a list to choose from?

Regarding Remember Your Training: This one I would want to hear Gem's opinion. With Cosmic power, the hard part was that we are in an situation where attacking is king and I only could use it to great effect because I piled it on top of a pokemon with already absurd defense AND have the Simple ability on it. This one actually contributes to attacking. Also, if you recall the Stat modifier charts...

"x1.5, x2.0, x2.5, x3.0, x3.5, and x4.0."

That means your ability is basically a free Helping Hand for BOTH of your pokemons.

So yeah, it might be simpler to do a straight up damage buff or something.

[Astral Harmony]

Sleep is important. It makes both you and all my other headaches go away.

This afternoon I'm going to focus on all the suggestions made in this thread, whether you guys have actually gotten a plan for the RP ready or not. I'll consider everything that's been posted as far as modifying classes and may even have time to do the demon classes for Impact, Pierce, and Sophia. I dunno, depends on what anime I'm watching at the time.

...Maybe Bo-Bobo.

[Menarker]

Right...

Any thoughts for tactics for the RP? I'd probably suggest we get rid of Psy Pierce (Null Turn ability would be a pain) and Psy Renny (Valiant Rush would hurt a lot, especially since we are close to getting them to a lower morale rating.)

Renny on Defog duty with both his pokemons.
Rachel giving rage as normal I think.
Wilhelmina with Dark Bullet on a psychic target
Irene attacks a different Psytarget (PsyImpact?) with Grimslay for Super Effective Ghost damage and 50% base chance of Instant Death. (Doubled to 100% due to Super Effectiveness?) Her Sceptile and Ryhperior use X-Scissor and Megahorn respectively to help attack the Psy-Pierce and Renny.
Melanie uses "Un" (Dark Type Slayer attack) for Super Effective damage. Base 50% chance of flinching which might be 100% flinch due to Super Effectiveness?
Harriette's Vespiquen and Wormadam use Attack Order and Bug Bite (both bug moves) on whichever psychic targets.
Moon's Vaporeon uses Helping Hand on someone. His Lanturn uses Signal Beam, a bug move on a psychic target.
Lexhur uses Drill Gore for strong dark type damage on a target?
Charlotte uses Arceus (Poison typed due to Toxic Plate) and his Poison typed Judgement on one of them Asuras to knock it out with Super Effective Damage. If Buck is available, use him for fire attacks on another of them Asuras.
Matt can either use Venomoth's form for STAB with a bug move (risky due to poison typing) or use some sort of powerful special attack move with Porygon Z. Dark, Ghost or Bug if possible.
Pierce has Tyranitar use Crunch (Dark) on a psychic type and Blaziken use a fire type on an Asura for super effective damage on both?
Dunno what weapons Impact has or if he'd rather use CC&C...
Harriette does Desperado to do four powerful randomly aimed typeless attacks (Hopefully there are fewer targets since she attacks last, so there is less chance of a bad random attack).

So effectively 11 attacks super effective against psychic types (A few with status conditions like Instant Death perhaps), 3 attacks effective against Asuras, a helping hand, Rage Rockets, Defog duties, 4 random damage and whatever Impact does.

What you guys think of this extremely rough draft?


AB: ... Is this a typo? What does the ability Inspiration do? Or did you mean Antipication?

4. Wormadam [Plant Cloak] (Bug/Plant) [Female]
Moves: Leaf Storm / Psychic / Bug Bite / Giga Drain
Ability: Inspiration

EDIT: Hey guys, remember a little while back when I started that entire TVtropes traits among PATCA members?

I found the two that basically sets apart Renny and Impact

Renny as "The Fettered"

Impact as "The Unfettered"


Pretty much sums things up a bit. ^^

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Menarker

Regarding Five Star Deluxe: I'd suggest that you choose a single pokemon for that turn and the food nourishes and motivates it so well, it gains the "Filter" ability until the end of turn. (Filter reduces the damage of Super Effective moves by a quarter) It's strong, it's impossible to exploit since all you're doing is mitigating a bad situation (still worse than being hit with neutral attacks), and it may or may not come in handy since the pokemons might be hit with not-effective or neutral attacks or not even attacked at all.

Meh, don't like it.

I'm thinking I'll make it A) regenerate 3/32 of both pokemon's maximum HP (1/16 + 50%), or B) heal 10% of one or both pokemon's max HP.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Regarding Trainer Attack: How exactly? Pierce is not a pokemon and I didn't think that the weapons he wields could create a pokemon attack either. And how would you choose the pokemon moves or is there even a list to choose from?

I mean, something like:

Blaziken uses Fire Blast!
Pierce uses Trainer Attack! Pierce attacks Blaziken's target, except he doesn't actually do damage. In fact, for all intents and purposes, it counts as part of Blaziken's Fire Blast, and adds a chance to cause Instant Death or reduce Special Defense by one stage (depending on which weapon Pierce is using, and based on the chances those weapons normally have of inflicting statuses). No extra damage or anything.

Get it now?

Originally Posted by Menarker

Regarding Remember Your Training: This one I would want to hear Gem's opinion. With Cosmic power, the hard part was that we are in an situation where attacking is king and I only could use it to great effect because I piled it on top of a pokemon with already absurd defense AND have the Simple ability on it. This one actually contributes to attacking. Also, if you recall the Stat modifier charts...

"x1.5, x2.0, x2.5, x3.0, x3.5, and x4.0."

That means your ability is basically a free Helping Hand for BOTH of your pokemons.

So yeah, it might be simpler to do a straight up damage buff or something.

Something like 20 or 25% extra damage for both pokemon?

Originally Posted by Menarker

EDIT: Hey guys, remember a little while back when I started that entire TVtropes traits among PATCA members?

I found the two that basically sets apart Renny and Impact

Renny as "The Fettered"

Impact as "The Unfettered"


Pretty much sums things up a bit. ^^

Piece is rather Fettered.