Pokemon Umbral Theatre 1: Where All the Lurkers...Ah...Lurk

[Menarker]

Gem, if you really want to be being part of the "balancing process", you should be reading the entire thing, not skimming it and only reading sections.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Oh, really? God, you people need to tell me these things. In that case, sure. Let the 4th accessory be Slayer level 3 if it really must. Though then again, level 3 is still stronger than 4, what with the stats boost. Leaving it at 4 would be preferable.
Look, Menarker, do you really need a fourth one? Really?

I barely care about the stat boost one shit to be honest. They are like the effects of leftovers. Additive bonuses as small as that are barely noticeable and don't seem to contribute to combat. It's why I'm replacing leftovers for all future mission with things like Lum Berries, since I don't think AB even bothers to deal with them. It's nice to have them just to know that it is at that point that a character's physical strength should rise at that point, but I can't possibly contribute that upgrade in a dicussion of any battle plans we make. I only see the stat boost as being a way to say that the character stays proportionally effective against the increasing toughness of foes.

For passive upgrades, I'd want something that is not additive so much as "on/off" or binary code. I either clear cut have that ability/item or I don't. Immunity to a pokemon type? I can claim that as a damn useful ability since I can actually take that in account for a plan. Double Attack? DAMN SKIPPY. I would know that my character has that capability. But stat boost? That's more gravy than anything, since I can't even tell how strong my character is compared to my allies, nevermind my enemies!

With the above leftovers/Lum berry example: If my pokemon gets hurt but then doesn't get hit for some turns later, then a strong foe hits it and presumably knocks it out. I might debate endlessly about how that pokemon should have survived due to regenerating enough to regain health closer to its max. But then AB might say it was just that strong and my pokemon was weak enough to knock out in one hit. There is no solid basis on which the item actually supports the pokemon since it's like 2 kids playing cop and robbers with pretend guns and one kid protesting "I shot you" "No, you missed" "You Liar!" "Nuh uh! I shoot you instead and you're dead now!".
Now, with the Lum berry, if AB tries to afflict my pokemon with a status effect and forgets to change it back, I can say "AB, my pokemon should be status free due to the Lum Berry." and AB would fix it because that's a clear cut effect of what should happen because the item/ability straight out demands that is what happens in those circumstances. The same is why I don't view stat improvements with anything other than saying "Renny's physical strength has grown to keep up proportionally effective against the scaling enemy difficulty."

So, you're basically telling me that for my level 3, you want me to only have one useful ability (the immunity) and I lose both Double Attack and a 4th accessory (Which you proceeded to say I can't have later on due to balance). I say you nerfed WAY TOO FAR.

And I've reconsidered accessories.
The way it is now, we get one free use, and then every use costs 50. Is 35 rage now the standard cost, or the cost after the upgrade? Don't have time to check.
Anyway, how about this: We drop the rage cost by another 5-10 rage, but remove the "initial free use". Makes accessories more tactical, I think, and a bit more important in combat. Your thoughts, AB?

The way it was going to go, the dropping down to 35 rage after the one free use was supposed to an upgrade at like Overblade 1 or so, not standard. Also, you're making things way more expensive, especially if Renny loses the ability to Double Attack and gain rage that way.

How the hell does dropping the cost a bit and removing the free use make them "more important"? If anything, that makes them LESS important and less useful since I'd only horde rage for my techniques and typically more useful actions. Pokebrid's Paradigm Shift which you say to leave in its cluncky 60 rage 3 turn effect also stops Renny from getting rage.

Let's see... What does Renny have to spend rage on to begin with? There is Paradigm Shift for pokebrid. There is Testament Drives, Divide, and Focus for trainers. There are Renny's Co-Op Tech and Love Tech. And there is presumably the Slayer's Sweep and Overpower (Status Cure) and of course the accessories.

Clearly, I would be hordeing my rage for my "more importatant stuff" like Renny's techs and maybe Sweep or Testament Drives! Stuff like Paradigm Shift and accessories remain unused because you can't convince me to see them having any significant use compared to the other abilities when they are hampered with their relatively lower power at proportionally higher costs!
I mean look at one of the accessories that cures status conditions? Slayers later on get Overpower which does the same but costs less! Toxic accessory? The poison slayer weapon is sure to be SO much better at doing the job (and that's not counting the fact that practically every pokemon can use Toxic, hence going Pokebrid outstrips its use.)
Clearly, I feel there is something wrong with your analysis or even how you're processing all this.

Waitwaitwait.
He wouldn't get the accessory slot, obviously! Just as he wouldn't be able to use both a pokebrid action and a trainer action in the same turn. He'd get to come up with new accessories, and he'd get to select 3 trainer actions and one pokebrid action, but he'd only be able to use the benefits of one of those every turn, obviously (otherwise he'd be getting more power because he invests in a larger variety of classes, and that'd be imbalanced, since for everyone to have equal strength, everyone else would have to go "variety" as well). And for Slayer, that translates into removing the accessory slot. That is acceptable, I hope?

What does an item slot have to do with actions at all, especially since you're intending to also remove the first free use of the accessory? Not being able to use pokebrid action and trainer action at the same time makes sense. But carrying capacity is not the same as trying to multi-task.

You're stacking way too many nerfs at the same time and they are adding up to be something I feel is drastically unfair since you also intend to remove Double Attack which is a source of rage gathering. Oh, and also moving to maintain Paradigm shift as it is, thus Renny is FURTHER having rage problems by being unable to gain rage when attacking for 3 turns as opposed to only not being able to gain rage on the turn he uses it.

Let's see, you want to remove Double Attack. You want to have Renny have 4th accessory slot at level 4 not have 4th accessory slot PERIOD for some obscure reason related to my triple classing although saying that other people who take slayer levels can. Remove the free use of accessory. Hampered Paradigm Shift which compounds rage problems. And what do you say I'm getting for it? A token drop in rage for accessories?

My reaction is: WHAT THE HELL GUYS? You can't honestly expect me to believe this is remotely fair. This is clearly nerfing, not balancing! I'd almost think this is character/player specific griefing.

How about we all wait for AB to post his demon class so we know what standards to raise or lower upgrades? This is clearly a game of the blind leading the blind at the moment.

Anyhow, I got to get to work. See you all later.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Geminex

Anyway, how about this: We drop the rage cost by another 5-10 rage, but remove the "initial free use". Makes accessories more tactical, I think, and a bit more important in combat. Your thoughts, AB?

Honestly? I'm rather against making Slayers more Rage-centric. We already have Pokebrids for that!

Though, I don't agree with Menarker's response to this either.

Anyway, yeah, the "make them less costly" bit was supposed to come as an upgrade later.

Originally Posted by Geminex

He wouldn't get the accessory slot, obviously! Just as he wouldn't be able to use both a pokebrid action and a trainer action in the same turn. He'd get to come up with new accessories, and he'd get to select 3 trainer actions and one pokebrid action, but he'd only be able to use the benefits of one of those every turn, obviously (otherwise he'd be getting more power because he invests in a larger variety of classes, and that'd be imbalanced, since for everyone to have equal strength, everyone else would have to go "variety" as well). And for Slayer, that translates into removing the accessory slot. That is acceptable, I hope?

I dunno about that. Trading away a passive upgrade like the third accessory slot seems rather imbalanced. Trainer Actions and Pokebrid Actions need to be activated individually, so it makes sense that what he'd have to give up would be something similar.

What if, instead of losing the third accessory slot... hmm, gotta figure out how to word this one properly:

If Menarker uses an accessory, he can no longer use a Trainer Action or Pokebrid Action that turn. And if he uses a Trainer Action or Pokebrid Action, he can't use accessories that turn. That way, he can still use multiple accessories, so long as he has the Rage.

And of course, he could only use one Trainer Action or one Pokebrid Action at a time, like you said.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Also, people, this is another reason I want everything to be self-customizable: It makes balancing way easier. No, stop laughing. Seriously. Because the class progression isn't balanced, the way AB has made it. It wouldn't be if I devoted a week to balancing it. If everyone gets 15 levels to invest, then the player's power will depend on the way they invest them. And like I said, this isn't supposed to be a competitive RP. I'm hoping I've made the point that it'll be most enjoyable if there's parity in strength. And if we want parity, equality, we're gonna have to nerf everyone separately anyway, since there's no way to set up the class progression in a way that makes every avenue, every specialization, have equal strength.

Or, y'know, we could just go straight to "nerf everyone separately". With a lot less work.

Okay...

How about this, everyone customizes their own classes, but they're still classes and they have to be heavily based on the current upgrades.

Because I like the idea of us having separate classes with badass names for each one and each combination.

"Heavily based" doesn't have to be all that restrictive. People can still come up with any upgrades they want for a class, or move around some of the existing ones. Like a Breeder could get a custom move or an Xth-level pokemon one or two levels sooner than they would, but it has to be balanced with the rest of their upgrades. Or a Slayer could get their RPDA sooner, or halve the cost of accessories. Or a Pokebrid could get Paradigm Shifts that last for one turn and cost 20 RPs.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Now back to the other stuff...
DRAC'S TRAINER ACTIONS:

Now you deign yourself to do it? WELL IT'S TOO LATE, I TOOK THE KIDS AND I'M STAYING WITH MY SISTER.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Trainer attack...
Eeeeh. Not so sure. I mean, the concept is cool. I'm just uncertain whether you should get the Slayer probabilities...
Let's try it. If it gets abused, I reserve the right to call for a nerf.

Fair enough, done.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Five-Star-Deluxe-Special: This one's interesting. Not sure about any of them, they either seem too weak or too strong.
How about this: One target, 20%. Only one target can be affected at a time. Getting damaged dispels effect. Can target pokemon that aren't on the field.

I assume you mean 20% regeneration. I hope you realize there's nothing stopping me from using it and Tyranitar and having him use Protect every turn while Tyranistorm takes out every enemy. It'd take forever, but at 3/32th of their HP every turn, we'd get there. Especially if I bring along some X-items and shit to buff his defences for everything that gets through Protect.

But hey, assuming you agree, there's only one more issue.

AB, I assume we're still doing that thing where Trainers only get one Trainer Action every even level?

If we are, then I guess I have to pick two of those Trainer Actions, and then a third once Pierce hits Breeder 1. Goddamnit this is gonna suck.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Also, if we get all the kills that I hope we're gonna get, PsyRenny's Shadow Rush is gonna hurt.

It'd be nice if I could actually remember what Valiant Rush actually did.

HEY MENARKER, REPOST VALIANT RUSH OR PUT IT IN YOUR BIO, YA JERK.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Hell, it's gonna hurt already, if AB's cruel enough to make it count all the units that already have fallen this battle. That's what? A dozen?
Are you lookin forward to getting hit a dozen types?

Oh, I hardly think he'd do that.

More importantly, I'm fairly certain Psyshades work on Rage. I think it's safe to assume PsyRenny starts with 50 RPs, I just don't know if he has enough to use Shadow Rush, seeing as how MENARKER DOESN'T HAVE VALIANT RUSH IN HIS BIO, THAT JERK.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Also, gonna nerf CC&C and buff Dark Ambition after this battle.

Awwww, is your Signature Technique not getting enough love?

Originally Posted by Menarker

stat boosts

Are you saying stat boosts suck?

OH MAN WOW THEN I GUESS YOU SHOULD THROW AWAY YOUR MOLLESK WITH HIS USELESS STAT BOOST-RELIANCE, HUH? YEAH, DO THAT.

Do you understand how much of a hypocrite you're coming off as right now?

Originally Posted by Menarker

Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny

It's all Renny this and Renny that with you, huh?

This affects everyone else taking levels in Slayer too, y'know? Which so far is you, Geminex, and me. And maybe Bard too.

We do need to balance this stuff. And after we've balanced it, if you don't want to be so Rage-reliant, don't take a Rage-reliant class.

Originally Posted by Menarker

What does an item slot have to do with actions at all, especially since you're intending to also remove the first free use of the accessory? Not being able to use pokebrid action and trainer action at the same time makes sense. But carrying capacity is not the same as trying to multi-task.

I hope you mean "accessory slot", and I've already given my views on this.

You're still wrong, though.

Originally Posted by Menarker

You're stacking way too many nerfs at the same time and they are adding up to be something I feel is drastically unfair since you also intend to remove Double Attack which is a source of rage gathering. Oh, and also moving to maintain Paradigm shift as it is, thus Renny is FURTHER having rage problems by being unable to gain rage when attacking for 3 turns as opposed to only not being able to gain rage on the turn he uses it.

Renny Renny Renny Renny Renny.

We are removing Double Attack and that's final. So seriously, stop bringing it up.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Let's see, you want to remove Double Attack.

I could've sworn you'd agreed to this.

Originally Posted by Menarker

You want to have Renny have 4th accessory slot at level 4 not have 4th accessory slot PERIOD for some obscure reason related to my triple classing although saying that other people who take slayer levels can.

No no, this would affect anyone. If any of us wanted a fourth accessory, we'd have to take Overblade 4. That's period.

Seriously, stop making this about you.

I was making it about you, of course, but Geminex isn't.

Originally Posted by Menarker

My reaction is: WHAT THE HELL GUYS? You can't honestly expect me to believe this is remotely fair. This is clearly nerfing, not balancing! I'd almost think this is character/player specific griefing.

Nerfing can be balancing.

So I think your argument should be that this nerf does not contribute to balancing.

[Astral Harmony]

Anyway, how about this: We drop the rage cost by another 5-10 rage, but remove the "initial free use". Makes accessories more tactical, I think, and a bit more important in combat. Your thoughts, AB?

30 Rage for Accessory use would allow a distinction between Sweep (which hits two adjacent targets with the same attack and the Stamina Boost accessory, which allows for double attack. That was actually what I was looking for all along in this whole Double Attack arguement.

I can accept that, but because we're doing away with free initial use that way, I want to up the effectiveness of all accessories and those that will be added later.

AB, I assume we're still doing that thing where Trainers only get one Trainer Action every even level?

Only one Action per turn, no matter which class it comes from.

HEY MENARKER, REPOST VALIANT RUSH OR PUT IT IN YOUR BIO, YA JERK.

Strangely enough, I don't have it in my document, either.

-----

Sorry about the post not being here yet. That nap I took ended up being more like cryogenic slumber.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Armored Bishoujo

Strangely enough, I don't have it in my document, either.

Oh, well then nevermind.

Originally Posted by Armored Bishoujo

Sorry about the post not being here yet. That nap I took ended up being more like cryogenic slumber.

Eh, as long as you post eventually.

[Astral Harmony]

I'll try to have it done tonight.

And I won't play Sexy Beach 3 or watch Sgt. Frog until it's done.

[Dracorion]

I dunno, I could make an exception for Sexy Beach 3.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Wow it has been a while since I posted.

Anyways, what with all of these proposed buffs and nerfs, Charlotte is both getting ahead and behind the others.

If the Trainer Action thing is possible, then I like the idea of that 'Kick the puppy' thing mentioned. Damage loss for a stat boost.

And I actually have a 'Relationship Technique' thing vaguely in mind, but the only character whom I can imagine having any relaions with Charlotte likely won't be introduced until the sidequest.

[Dracorion]

Note to Charlotte: The one that looks like Pierce is already quite obviously dibbed on.

Sure, you can damage it if you want, but the kill goes to Pierce.

[Geminex]

Valiant rush, I believe, involves Renny attacking multiple times. He pays rage for every attack, but gets rage equal to the cost of one attack if there's unconscious allies on the field.

I'm not sure how strong it is exactly, but if AB counts every dead enemy as an unconcious ally, we have a lot of free attacks coming our way.

I can accept that, but because we're doing away with free initial use that way, I want to up the effectiveness of all accessories and those that will be added later.

That's cool. Not all of them, mind. There's a few that are already, I think, strong enough.
Though... if we only reduce the cost by 5, that'd leave us with 45 rage for accessory use. I'd rather have it so that it gets reduced to 40, at least, but the accessories don't get powered up as much. Maybe even go down to 35 and keep their power constant (while removing the initial free use), and then later reduce the cost by another 5 and buff them then?

And my thinking was that Slayers are effectively being discouraged from reusing their accessories by the high reusing cost. This way, accessories don't get used early in battle and then get forgotten, they can be used throughout the battle.

Okay...

How about this, everyone customizes their own classes, but they're still classes and they have to be heavily based on the current upgrades.

Because I like the idea of us having separate classes with badass names for each one and each combination.

"Heavily based" doesn't have to be all that restrictive. People can still come up with any upgrades they want for a class, or move around some of the existing ones. Like a Breeder could get a custom move or an Xth-level pokemon one or two levels sooner than they would, but it has to be balanced with the rest of their upgrades. Or a Slayer could get their RPDA sooner, or halve the cost of accessories. Or a Pokebrid could get Paradigm Shifts that last for one turn and cost 20 RPs.

That's pretty much exactly what I meant. We'd come up with our own stuff, while basing it on the existing stuff, we'd assign a class to each level-up we take. Bingo. We'd still get the badass names, of course.

If Menarker uses an accessory, he can no longer use a Trainer Action or Pokebrid Action that turn. And if he uses a Trainer Action or Pokebrid Action, he can't use accessories that turn. That way, he can still use multiple accessories, so long as he has the Rage.

Eh... I don't know, actually. But I saw it this way:
Trainers and snaggers get two things: One, an additional action. Two, an increasing variety of moves to use with this action.

Pokebrids get two things: One, an additional action. Two, an increasing variety of moves to use with this action.

Slayers get two things: One, an additional accessory slot. Two, an increasing variety of accessories to put into this slot.

Since we agree that characters should only get one extra action (i.e. the action that their primary class gets them), that should translate to Slayer as well, obviously. And there the "active" bonus is getting an extra accessory slot. So we remove that. It's logical, even if the extra slot isn't all that active.
Unless you have a better idea? And no, Menarker, "JUST LEAVE IT AS IT IS" is not a valid suggestion.

Though I'll agree to wait with addressing the rest of your points until we get the demon template.

[Dracorion]

Yeah, but see, the problem is that removing the extra slot is permanent. With the Trainer Actions and Pokebrid Actions, you can still choose to use the other one next turn.

Unless you're saying that he would simply be unable to use the item in the extra slot.

Like, Menarker would specify that he put a Stamina Boost in the fourth slot. If he uses a Trainer Action or a Pokebrid Action that turn, he can't use that Stamina Boost, but he can still use his other accessories, is that what you're saying?