Pokemon Umbral Theatre 1: Where All the Lurkers...Ah...Lurk

[Menarker]

Originally Posted by Dracorion

Are you saying stat boosts suck?

OH MAN WOW THEN I GUESS YOU SHOULD THROW AWAY YOUR MOLLESK WITH HIS USELESS STAT BOOST-RELIANCE, HUH? YEAH, DO THAT.

Do you understand how much of a hypocrite you're coming off as right now?

>_> I said additive. Did you read what I said properly? Who am I kidding? Of course you didn't. Firstly, Mollesk's defense is based on a preexisting pokemon, as opposed to the slayers whose stats are difficult to measure (especially compounded if I go Pokebrid which have modified stats of their own). Secondly, Cosmic Power and Simple are Multiplicative. They actually have relatively easily measurable boosts because it's easy to say something is twice as powerful or twice as weak as normal. Saying something is 15 points higher is... not as easy to imagine.
AB, as far as I know, doesn't use math or formulas a whole lot when dealing with combat resolution, but rather a lot of guesstimating the overall effect. Things like Twice as much, Half as Much, or *applying a specific effect* actually tends to be included in his synopsis, especially because it is easier to grasp. Things that are "minor" and "hard to add up mentally" like leftovers and trainer attacks are not included except in very rare instances and usually only when they are concentrated. My argument here is that the 15 point boost falls in this "minor" camp and thus is not a significant bonus. And the reason for debating that point is because it determines whether the extra accessory slot on level 3 is too much DESPITE the fact that accessories was suggested and agreed on as a suitable replacement for Double Attack.

We are removing Double Attack and that's final. So seriously, stop bringing it up.

I could've sworn you'd agreed to this.

I did. Then Gem said this:

Originally Posted by Geminex

As for the extra accessory on Overblade level 3, I have a much better reason why it shouldn't be: Overblade 3 already gets double attack. It's already the strongest single level-up in the RP. I really don't think it needs to get even stronger. Make it level 4, and we can agree to have it slip back to 3 if we nerf double attack.

I was responding to Gem saying that Overblades have Double Attack, since I thought he changed his mind on that. The accessories was suggested to be a replacement for Double Attack at equal level in order to keep the power level a bit less to what it was before but still keeping the power level somewhat the same as before.

It's all Renny this and Renny that with you, huh?

This affects everyone else taking levels in Slayer too, y'know? Which so far is you, Geminex, and me. And maybe Bard too.

We do need to balance this stuff. And after we've balanced it, if you don't want to be so Rage-reliant, don't take a Rage-reliant class.

Coming from you who expressively declared that your motive in suggesting a change was to spite a particular person, that statement is insulting to the nth degree. All I asked was "why or why not that particular change" and barring that to wait until AB posted his demon classes so we have an idea what direction would bring the classes closer to balance with Demons. Neither you or Gem proposed an example of why an extra accessory slot at level 3 was just as bad or worse than Double Attack. The same is true as to why it was opted to remove the first use of accessories.

Once again, I ask. Why is level 3 such a bad place to put it? For that matter... For that matter, what does level 3 consist of now aside from a small stat boost and a type immunity? I don't seem to recall anyone proposing anything to replace Double Attack OR the accessories which you guys want to bump up. If level 3 actually had something great, then fantastic, I would be willing to bypass the fourth accessory. But part of the issue why I'm doing all this protesting is that all you guys are suggesting now are nerfs. No reason given why and nothing proposed to replace them. There seems to be an empty void where Double Attack and Accessories was in that level.

No no, this would affect anyone. If any of us wanted a fourth accessory, we'd have to take Overblade 4. That's period.

Seriously, stop making this about you.

I was making it about you, of course, but Geminex isn't.

You BOTH were making about me or my choice of classes. Yours was more obvious. But Gem's can be seen here.

Waitwaitwait.
He wouldn't get the accessory slot, obviously! Just as he wouldn't be able to use both a pokebrid action and a trainer action in the same turn. He'd get to come up with new accessories, and he'd get to select 3 trainer actions and one pokebrid action, but he'd only be able to use the benefits of one of those every turn, obviously (otherwise he'd be getting more power because he invests in a larger variety of classes, and that'd be imbalanced, since for everyone to have equal strength, everyone else would have to go "variety" as well). And for Slayer, that translates into removing the accessory slot. That is acceptable, I hope?

That is explictively targetting people who multi-class despite the fact that multi-classing means that the growth to higher power is slower and the maximum height is never reached to begin with! Multi-classing has its own advantage and disadvantages and Gem is seemingly listing disadvantages that aren't actually there! Renny is supposably going to be the character with the most level of slayer, according to what you guys are saying about how many levels of demon you hope to take. So why is the one level of pokebrid such a damning factor? So much that you opt that the upgrade that was proposed to be a suitable replacement for Double Attack should be denied to the person who intend to invest the most in the class in the first place on the very basis of too much variety? The fact that the pokebrid is effectively being played like a sub-level of Slayer due to the proposed using boosted pokemon moves as Slayer attacks seemed to have gone amiss too.


ALSO

What if, instead of losing the third accessory slot... hmm, gotta figure out how to word this one properly:

If Menarker uses an accessory, he can no longer use a Trainer Action or Pokebrid Action that turn. And if he uses a Trainer Action or Pokebrid Action, he can't use accessories that turn. That way, he can still use multiple accessories, so long as he has the Rage.

And of course, he could only use one Trainer Action or one Pokebrid Action at a time, like you said.

What does an item slot have to do with actions at all, especially since you're intending to also remove the first free use of the accessory? Not being able to use pokebrid action and trainer action at the same time makes sense. But carrying capacity is not the same as trying to multi-task.

So basically, what you did was belittle me and then propose the same thing I was in agreement with before you said it! I agreed that accessories, pokebrid actions and trainer actions should be seperate, and that it shouldn't be a bearing on how many accessories a character can hold.


BTW: An easier way to phrase what you said is

"Choose one of the following abilities each turn: Trainer Action, Pokebrid Action, or Slayer Accessories. The user can use one of that respective ability at the exclusion of the other two during that turn. Multiple accessories can be used in the same turn if sufficient rage is present.

Nerfing can be balancing.

So I think your argument should be that this nerf does not contribute to balancing.

>_> Exactly. One would say you're using "balancing" as a weapon instead of actually balancing.

Before all this arguments started, we had discussions about what were overpowered or not powered enough, and for every item that was in debate, there was a solid example and some reasons why or why not. Nowadays though, things are not being explained why something should be altered and that almost everything is on a "because I said so" basis.

Now, in Gem's case, let's use the recent example of him wanting to keep Paradigm Shift as is. Yes, that bites me in the butt adding a rage problem to a rage-reliant class but he gave the valid reasons that it wouldn't be crucial to those specializing in Pokebrids because they wouldn't need paradigm shift to use them for Sync Techs. That was agreeable and I can understand and work with that.

But now we come back to the entire accessory thing. No reasons given. Despite you guys saying it would effect every slayer, it really at the moment only would effect me because you guys stated you don't intend to go that far in Slayer anyhow in favor of going demon. Impact for Full Demon (6+ levels) and Pierce with multiple levels in demon AND breeder AND slayer. It could effect Charlotte and maybe Dante, but is them getting accessories earlier bad? Compound that with "triple-classing is bad" (Suspciously specific argument) or "I don't like Menarker getting a fourth accessory" (Not even hiding it!) and the result is that I don't feel like you guys are actually acting in good faith with balancing at the moment. You guys did before and that was great for everyone with a lot less arguments, but not lately...


BTW, didn't anyone consider that some of the nerfs you guys are proposing is going too far now that AB nerfed Medics? Since infinate rage rockets and stuff like Full Restores is no longer possible, some of the reasons for the nerfs like too much rage is not really valid anymore.

How about this, everyone customizes their own classes, but they're still classes and they have to be heavily based on the current upgrades.

Because I like the idea of us having separate classes with badass names for each one and each combination.

"Heavily based" doesn't have to be all that restrictive. People can still come up with any upgrades they want for a class, or move around some of the existing ones. Like a Breeder could get a custom move or an Xth-level pokemon one or two levels sooner than they would, but it has to be balanced with the rest of their upgrades. Or a Slayer could get their RPDA sooner, or halve the cost of accessories. Or a Pokebrid could get Paradigm Shifts that last for one turn and cost 20 RPs.

This is sounding VERY GOOD right about now, just so there isn't that nonsense about specific upgrades being proposed at arbitary levels and how it would effect other players too while still enabling character freedom, more or less. I would vote in favor of this.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Since we agree that characters should only get one extra action (i.e. the action that their primary class gets them), that should translate to Slayer as well, obviously. And there the "active" bonus is getting an extra accessory slot. So we remove that. It's logical, even if the extra slot isn't all that active.
Unless you have a better idea? And no, Menarker, "JUST LEAVE IT AS IT IS" is not a valid suggestion.

Why are you saying Primary class again? I already explained why that is a no-no. I thought we agreed that it's basically we choose one respective action that we gained access to regardless of how many levels of our class we got.




But I'm very much asking again we put further "nerfs or buffs" on hold until we see demon templates and proposed accessories.




EDIT: Welp, lots of posts sprang up as I was writing, and some of them actually explaining things like I hoped.


Here is Valiant Rush btw. Edited its power a slight because by the time Renny gets it, Slayer weapons will be 130 power. I forgot about that factor when I made the move. Everything else is the same. The reason why I didn't put it in my bio is because Renny doesn't have the move yet. Was just proposing it in advance.

Valiant Rush
Description: Renny goes into a passionate frenzy when his allies and friends are in danger and personally enters the fray, inflicting damage on any targets of his choice with multiple blows that foes find difficult to endure.
Cost: 20 RP per hit. For every ally in Renny's team below 33% hitpoints and thus "in the red" or knocked out (or for every trainer down to 2 or less pokemons including 0), reduce the cost by 20. For each of Renny's pokemons knocked out, reduce the cost by 10. It's possible for the technique to be free if the reduced cost is more than the cost he pays for.
Effect: For every payment of 20 rage, Renny does an unmissing critical hit that bypasses effects like Protect and Endure using Almighty element (Able to hit any target equally regardless of type) to a target of choice. Thus he can choose to focus each individual hit on one target or divide the hits among any number of foes. The power of each blow is equal to 130 power after taking the doubled power due to crit in account. This move can only be used once every three turns regardless of how much rage he used or how many or few hits he done.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Menarker

>_> I said additive. Did you read what I said properly? Who am I kidding? Of course you didn't. Firstly, Mollesk's defense is based on a preexisting pokemon, as opposed to the slayers whose stats are difficult to measure (especially compounded if I go Pokebrid which have modified stats of their own). Secondly, Cosmic Power and Simple are Multiplicative. They actually have relatively easily measurable boosts because it's easy to say something is twice as powerful or twice as weak as normal. Saying something is 15 points higher is... not as easy to imagine.
AB, as far as I know, doesn't use math or formulas a whole lot when dealing with combat resolution, but rather a lot of guesstimating the overall effect. Things like Twice as much, Half as Much, or *applying a specific effect* actually tends to be included in his synopsis, especially because it is easier to grasp. Things that are "minor" and "hard to add up mentally" like leftovers and trainer attacks are not included except in very rare instances and usually only when they are concentrated. My argument here is that the 15 point boost falls in this "minor" camp and thus is not a significant bonus. And the reason for debating that point is because it determines whether the extra accessory slot on level 3 is too much DESPITE the fact that accessories was suggested and agreed on as a suitable replacement for Double Attack.

Yeah, sorry. I missed one word.

Anyway, AB said way back when (like, sometime before we hit Discussion thread 10, I think), that Slayers had 100 in every stat. Pokebrid stats were Pokemon Form stats + Slayer stats / 2.

Anyway, Slayers get 600 total stat points. Going all the way to Overblade 3 gives you 25 stat points in every stat, bringing their total to 750. Just so you know.

Still, AB, can you confirm what I said above about Slayer and Pokebrid stats?

Menarker, you're right that AB estimates all the damage. However, I'm fairly certain he takes all the factors (at least the ones he can remember) into account, so those extra 25 points would make a difference.

And I wouldn't lump them in with Trainer Attacks or Leftovers. At the very least, I would put those 25 points in the lower end of "moderate".

Yes, something regarding accessories was suggested as a replacement for Double Attack. I like how you don't specifically say what about accessories, though. I mean, which is it? The reduced cost, or the extra slots?

Also, I think you underestimate the value of immunity to a stat.

Originally Posted by Menarker

I was responding to Gem saying that Overblades have Double Attack, since I thought he changed his mind on that. The accessories was suggested to be a replacement for Double Attack at equal level in order to keep the power level a bit less to what it was before but still keeping the power level somewhat the same as before.

That's bullshit. You said this:

You're stacking way too many nerfs at the same time and they are adding up to be something I feel is drastically unfair since you also intend to remove Double Attack which is a source of rage gathering. Oh, and also moving to maintain Paradigm shift as it is, thus Renny is FURTHER having rage problems by being unable to gain rage when attacking for 3 turns as opposed to only not being able to gain rage on the turn he uses it.

Let's see, you want to remove Double Attack. You want to have Renny have 4th accessory slot at level 4 not have 4th accessory slot PERIOD for some obscure reason related to my triple classing although saying that other people who take slayer levels can. Remove the free use of accessory. Hampered Paradigm Shift which compounds rage problems. And what do you say I'm getting for it? A token drop in rage for accessories?

And you were responding to Geminex, which means you didn't think he was saying Overblades have Double Attack.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Coming from you who expressively declared that your motive in suggesting a change was to spite a particular person, that statement is insulting to the nth degree. All I asked was "why or why not that particular change" and barring that to wait until AB posted his demon classes so we have an idea what direction would bring the classes closer to balance with Demons. Neither you or Gem proposed an example of why an extra accessory slot at level 3 was just as bad or worse than Double Attack. The same is true as to why it was opted to remove the first use of accessories.

Well, I was actually against Gem's idea to remove the first free use of accessories.

What kind of example do you want? You want us to tell you "we think getting a fourth accessory at level 3 is overpowered when you add in everything else they get at that level"? Because that's the best we can do. There is no in-RP example we could give as to why it would be unbalanced.

Also, no one said it was just as bad or worse than Double Attack. I see it as being "almost as bad as Double Attack but not quite, yet it still deserves a nerf".

We looked at the level 3 upgrades and thought "hm, I don't think we should put a fourth accessory in that upgrade", and you thought otherwise. The reason is that you're undermining the value of the other two bonuses gained in that upgrade.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Once again, I ask. Why is level 3 such a bad place to put it? For that matter... For that matter, what does level 3 consist of now aside from a small stat boost and a type immunity? I don't seem to recall anyone proposing anything to replace Double Attack OR the accessories which you guys want to bump up. If level 3 actually had something great, then fantastic. But part of the issue why I'm doing all this protesting is that all you guys are suggesting now are nerfs. No reason given why and nothing proposed to replace them.

You don't have to replace every upgrade you take out! At least, not in the same spot. We are keeping the fourth accessory slot, just putting it someplace else.

Hell, compare it to Tuners, who get all of one bonus for their level 1 upgrade, and their level 3 ain't all that great either. Even with just a type immunity and a stat boost, you're still beating them.

Originally Posted by Menarker

That is explictively targetting people who multi-class despite the fact that multi-classing means that the growth to higher power is slower and the maximum height is never reached to begin with! Multi-classing has its own advantage and disadvantages and Gem is seemingly listing disadvantages that aren't actually there! Renny is supposably going to be the character with the most level of slayer, according to what you guys are saying about how many levels of demon you hope to take. So why is the one level of pokebrid such a damning factor? So much that you opt that the upgrade that was proposed to be a suitable replacement for Double Attack should be denied to the person who intend to invest the most in the class in the first place on the very basis of too much variety? The fact that the pokebrid is effectively being played like a sub-level of Slayer due to the proposed using boosted pokemon moves as Slayer attacks seemed to have gone amiss too.

Thought you were okay with Renny only getting one Pokebrid Action OR Trainer Action per turn?

"One level of Pokebrid" is such a damning factor because you're getting access to a whole new class. You're getting access to their entire movepool and Paradigm Shifting. Not to mention this blends in well with the Overblade 3 type immunity upgrade, because you could choose a Pokebrid form that has a quad weakness and make yourself immune to that type.

And then? You can throw on some Slayer armor and turn three of your 2x weaknesses into neutral!

Provided you take a form with at most four weaknesses, you could make yourself weaknessless like a Ghost/Dark type without actually having to be that type.

Originally Posted by Menarker

So basically, what you did was belittle me and then propose the same thing I was in agreement with before you said it! I agreed that accessories, pokebrid actions and trainer actions should be seperate, and that it shouldn't be a bearing on how many accessories a character can hold.

Technically I belittled you on your response to removing the first free use of accessories.

Originally Posted by Menarker

"Choose one of the following abilities each turn: Trainer Action, Pokebrid Action, or Slayer Accessories. The user can use one of that respective ability at the exclusion of the other two during that turn. Multiple accessories can be used in the same turn if sufficient rage is present.

Cool, thanks.

Originally Posted by Menarker

>_> Exactly. One would say you're using "balancing" as a weapon instead of actually balancing.

That "one" is specifically you, and "one" could say you're hardly unbiased.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Now we come back to the entire accessory thing. No reasons given. Despite you guys saying it would effect every slayer, it really at the moment only would effect me because you guys stated you don't intend to go that far in Slayer anyhow in favor of going demon. Impact for Full Demon (6+ levels) and Pierce with multiple levels in demon AND breeder AND slayer. It could effect Charlotte and maybe Dante, but is them getting accessories earlier bad? Compound that with "triple-classing is bad" (Suspciously specific argument) or "I don't like Menarker getting a fourth accessory" (Not even hiding it!) and the result is that I don't feel like you guys are actually acting in good faith with balancing at the moment. You guys did before, but not lately.

I didn't say triple-classing was bad, and I don't think Geminex said it either.

The comment of Geminex you're referring to when you say that was simply him stating the obvious by saying that anyone shouldn't be able to use Trainer Actions and Pokebrid Actions at the same time.

Also, the "reduced Rage cost + third extra accessory slot" upgrade would come at Slayer level 4 or 5, I think, so it the Rage cost bit would at least affect Geminex.

Not to mention, if we do make it so that accessories don't get that first free use, it would be standard (IE: start at level 2), and it would certainly affect all of us.

The fourth accessory thing? Yeah, that would probably only affect you. However, just because we're not getting that upgrade doesn't mean we shouldn't get to balance it.

Originally Posted by Menarker

BTW, didn't anyone consider that some of the nerfs you guys are proposing is going too far now that AB nerfed Medics? Since infinate rage rockets is no longer possible, some of the reasons for the nerfs like too much rage is not really valid anymore.

Did anyone really say "too much Rage"?

I mean hell, if anything, the suggestion I made to Geminex to replace his suggestion to remove the first free use of accessories was taking into account the fact that Medics can't use Rage Rockets anymore.

Originally Posted by Menarker

But I'm very much asking again we put further "nerfs or buffs" on hold until we see demon templates and proposed accessories.

Sure, why not.

[Menarker]

Yes, something regarding accessories was suggested as a replacement for Double Attack. I like how you don't specifically say what about accessories, though. I mean, which is it? The reduced cost, or the extra slots?

When I suggested accessories as a replacement for Double Attack, I suggested reducing costs since that would allow for the double attack one to be accessible without that concern of jumping Overblade's rage generation, while also opening more customization with other accessories.

Originally Posted by Dracorion

Also, I think you underestimate the value of immunity to a stat.

Actually, I felt that one was one of the better upgrades. But that didn't seem worthwhile by itself, when you take in consideration that I didn't think the stats was a worthwhile upgrade.

That's bullshit. You said this:

*Insert Quote*

And you were responding to Geminex, which means you didn't think he was saying Overblades have Double Attack.

If you look back some posts, I was referring to Post #82 where Gem was saying that accessories should be at level 4 because Double Attack was there. Then I responded saying I was fine with that change, since hell, he was the one saying it and Double Attack is cool! It was afterwards around Post #90 when he changed his mind AND added other nerfs to it.

"One level of Pokebrid" is such a damning factor because you're getting access to a whole new class. You're getting access to their entire movepool and Paradigm Shifting. Not to mention this blends in well with the Overblade 3 type immunity upgrade, because you could choose a Pokebrid form that has a quad weakness and make yourself immune to that type.

Paradigm Shift isn't quite as useful as it might seem with forced rage lock out from attacking for three rounds (which is almost an entire battle). Since we're losing Medic AND because Renny has primarily support techniques, it is one of the upgrades that I would end up never using unless it was changed so it only lasted for the turn it was activated.

The comment of Geminex you're referring to when you say that was simply him stating the obvious by saying that anyone shouldn't be able to use Trainer Actions and Pokebrid Actions at the same time.

I was fine with that, but then his explaination was that too much variety was a bad thing and that triple classing made it worse and THAT was why he opted to put 4th upgrade higher on the scale. If that wasn't what he meant, then he explained very poorly indeed.

Did anyone really say "too much Rage"?

Someone did say "too much rage generation". =P

I'm saying that any of the nerfs that may have been motivated by people having too much rage generation might be a little excessive that our fastest and easiest way of getting rage is gone.


Anyhow, a good deal of these arguments will fall on the wayside if we do have customized classes. *After waiting to see what the templates and accessories are*

[Astral Harmony]

Okay, here's what I'm suggesting:

- Plan Accessory: Currently, I have it set up (in my Powers By Level document) so that Overblade Level 3 gains a 4th Accessory Slot, not Double Attack. Accessories (like Stamina Rush which grants Double Attack for one turn) cost 30 Rage to use and this includes initial use and this applies to Slayers since level 2 when they can first equip accessories.

- Plan Rage Drop: Or, Double Attack would generate Rage for one of the attacks. For an Overblade just hitting level 3, that's 15 Rage generated for the whole shebangabang. Overblades maxing out at level 5 would gain 20 Rage for it.

- Plan Only 3 Accessories: Overblade level 2 is severely lacking in value. So I could move 3rd Accessory Equip there, get rid of 4th Accessory Equip altogether, then...I dunno, use Overblade level 3 to reduce Rage required to use accessories.

I want to do Plan Only 3 Accessories and then put something else into it. I want to make it cost a free action to "charge" accessories so that they can be used the next turn.

It's pretty hard to find the balance with all the Balance Wars between Menarker, Dracorian, and Geminex. I know they mean well (Gem and Men, anyways) but it's difficult to keep up with all myself.

Still, AB, can you confirm what I said above about Slayer and Pokebrid stats?

Pokebrid stats are more like this:

Pokemon's stats / 2 + Slayer's stats / 2.

Slayer stats are balanced across the board, but Impact wants it changed and I agree. However, I'd rather leave individual stat growths to demon upgrades if I could.