We will now discuss Naruto is a spoilery manner.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

My point is that you can't really call something out as Dues ex Machina if it's JUST appeared in the comic. As even if it wasn't explained earlier it can be explained later in the story. We might find out a lot about the Uzumaki clan in later chapters. Hel there might even be an entire flash back arc centered around Naruto's powerful ass mom.

[krogothwolf]

There was no sarcasm.

Naruto's Destiny is a prophecy some old fart made before the story.

Bleach's plan is some old soul started way back when well before Ichigo was even born.

There really is no difference.

[Lithp]

Yes, there is. Aizen is not "an inherent order to the cosmos," as Wiki puts it, that controls Ichigo's actions. No matter how accurate his plots turn out, he is not an agent of destiny.

My point is that you can't really call something out as Dues ex Machina if it's JUST appeared in the comic.

Sure I can. Her powers appeared out of nowhere to save Naruto problems.

We might find out a lot about the Uzumaki clan in later chapters. Hel there might even be an entire flash back arc centered around Naruto's powerful ass mom.

Don't threaten me.

Alright, I see what you're saying, but even if she gets fleshed out later, & even if she turns out to be the best damn character in the series, he can't go back & erase the fact that he pulled all of this "special chakra" stuff completely out of nowhere.

My point?

I'm not really sure.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

For all we know it may have been planned but executed poorly.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Lithp

Yes, there is. Aizen is not "an inherent order to the cosmos," as Wiki puts it, that controls Ichigo's actions. No matter how accurate his plots turn out, he is not an agent of destiny.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia: Destiny

It is a concept based on the belief that there is a fixed natural order to the cosmos.

Originally Posted by Dictionary: Destiny

1.something that is to happen or has happened to a particular person or thing; lot or fortune.
2.the predetermined, usually inevitable or irresistible, course of events.

The fact that Aizen planned this all out before Ichigo was born, and then introduced the Hougyoku into Ichigo's life for the express purpose of having everything go as planned is essentially the same as it being destiny since the events in Ichigo's life were predetermined by Aizen's plan, and forced to come to fruition thanks to the Hougyoku. That Aizen isn't "an agent of destiny" is irrelevant.

But I'm gonna stop arguing semantics before this goes on forever... again.

[Lithp]

Too late. I'm officially making this point. If you are ordered by a king to do something, it's not destiny. If you are a general & you use tactics to steer an enemy to a disadvantageous location, it's not destiny. If you're hungry & there's nothing to eat but chips & dip, it's not destiny.

There are all kinds of scenarios when you will be coerced to a certain outcome. Destiny is one of these. They are not all destiny.

The only way it's at all a form of destiny is if the Hougyokou directly controls his actions.

This isn't even just semantics, either. Fatalism is a very specific philosophical concept.

[Fusionman]

Originally Posted by Lithp

Too late. I'm officially making this point. If you are ordered by a king to do something, it's not destiny. If you are a general & you use tactics to steer an enemy to a disadvantageous location, it's not destiny. If you're hungry & there's nothing to eat but chips & dip, it's not destiny.

There are all kinds of scenarios when you will be coerced to a certain outcome. Destiny is one of these. They are not all destiny.

The only way it's at all a form of destiny is if the Hougyokou directly controls his actions.

This isn't even just semantics, either. Fatalism is a very specific philosophical concept.

PHILOSOPHY!!! No really we're arguing philosophy in a thread about a Shonen!!!

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Lithp

Too late.

No no no, you don't get it. I said I'm done. You can keep going all you want, feel free. But yeah, I'm done.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Lithp, you usually never concede about being wrong about anything when it comes to shonen. Even when your wrong. Arguing with you is like try to get a wall to talk by punching it. Completely useless, utterly useless.

You were proven to be at the least partially wrong about Ichigo not being destined to help Aizen (the big bad). It's time to just let it go.

[Lithp]

Lithp, you usually never concede about being wrong about anything when it comes to shonen.

No, see, this is why I'm doing this. I'm officially sick of this shit. You seem to want to be right so badly, but can't actually handle the process of proving a point. The second I take the gloves off & start taking anyone seriously, someone cuts in with this shit, & I'm expected to just shut up to appease them.

Well, I'm not backing off this time just because someone cried foul. You're wrong. You handle it. It's not fucking destiny. You didn't "prove" anything. There is a very specific definition for what constitutes a destined scenario. It is not a predicted scenario, it's a preordained one. As in something that cannot occur any other way because it was made so by the fundamental order of the universe. The Hougyokou doesn't do that. If it did, Ichigo wouldn't be able to put up any resistance against Aizen.