Dissidia Duodecim Final Fantasy continues Squeenix's tradition of stupid titles

[mudah.swf]

The other player can burst your burst in the corner btw, and bursts put the bursted player in a juggle state so they can be combo'd off of. But still, that system kind of blew because you could build meter fast and still burst whenever. IMO Guilty Gear did it best, putting bursts on a seperate meter that took a while to recover.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by mudah.swf

The thing with combos breakers is that it sounds like a fucking awesome idea on paper and then you actually play a game where you can break combos whenever the fuck you want and it sucks. One goddamned combo breaker is enough, you don't need too. Naruto UNS let you break combos with assists, and that game was shit for anything except a laugh. It wasn't even good at that either. Having a risk-free combo breaker outright makes the game unfun because you get punished for attacking, even if the opponent makes a mistake. Jump Ultimate Stars let you break combos with assists, which was also the downfall of that game. It doesn't matter if it needs meter, the fact that it's there is more than bad enough.

If I was in charge of this and was told I had to let assists break combos, I would make them cost the entire secondary meter to use and make them blow both players away from each other so that the match is essentially reset. If you can get a combo off of a combo breaker this game is ruined, sorry.

I could even go into a big spergy explanation about why combo breakers for the most part don't result in fun for anyone.

Originally Posted by mudah.swf

The other player can burst your burst in the corner btw, and bursts put the bursted player in a juggle state so they can be combo'd off of. But still, that system kind of blew because you could build meter fast and still burst whenever. IMO Guilty Gear did it best, putting bursts on a seperate meter that took a while to recover.

I'm sorry, but I can't bring myself to accept the "it's evil because it's there" argument. What about the Brave system? You have to pick up little orbs to gain Brave, right? Yeah, you beat them out of the other guy, but it works well enough. It's not like you're going to get a free Assist bar or else there would be little point in having it, much less in two sections. Like any bar in the series, it's probably going to be one you have to build and/or take damage to. I'd imagine they'll be putting in a new orb to collect during battle to build it up, or give you a certain amount per hit you land, or maybe per hit you take. Either way, filling it is either going to be a reward for you already doing well or be a balancing factor to give you a last shot if you're doing poorly. I highly doubt it's going to be so cheap as to just fill over time.

Sometimes things people think are bad ideas have just simply been done poorly previously.

I can see where you'd say that it punishes you for attacking the other player, but that's not even true in all cases. We don't know if you'll be able to combo out of it yet, for one. For two, call me crazy, but from what I've seen of Dissidia, it doesn't even seem to rely that heavily on combos. This isn't a game where it boils down to who gets in the first hit and there isn't even any worry of being cornered. You have a wide, round field and the full volume of three dimensions to work with. Combos are most reliable in either 2 or a line.

[Wizardcat]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

What about the Brave system? You have to pick up little orbs to gain Brave, right? Yeah, you beat them out of the other guy, but it works well enough.

That's 'EX Force', not BRV, I think. /hasn't played the game, either.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Wizardcat

That's 'EX Force', not BRV, I think. /hasn't played the game, either.

You would be correct.

This isn't a game where it boils down to who gets in the first hit

It can be at times.

Also, Blues, just throwing this out there, but perhaps you're not the most qualified person to talk about Dissidia, seeing as you haven't played it. Your relevant degrees don't really mean much if you haven't played the game you're talking about.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by NonCon

Also, Blues, just throwing this out there, but perhaps you're not the most qualified person to talk about Dissidia, seeing as you haven't played it. You're relevant degrees don't really mean much if you haven't played the game you're talking about.

Did I mention them? I really didn't think I mentioned them.

*looks*

Oh, good, I was worried there for a sec. Don't scare me like that.



My point is there's little reason to think they're not making a workable system out of it. There are means by which it could be good, bad, or neutral. Obviously, if you get a full bar every five seconds, that's bad, but there are other ways to meter the points out that can add to the game. Consider Grandia's HP, MP, and SP system. SP is earned and provides you with powerful assets, but it's not just given to you so easily. If you blow it all, it can be hard to get back. MP doesn't heal at all, but you have items that refill it. Two systems for two important aspects of the series.

Obviously, putting assists as an item-healed stat would be retarded, but as long as it has its own unique and balanced way of refilling, it adds a new layer to combat.

None of us knows how it's going to work yet. I'm just being more optimistic that it won't ruin the whole game.

[Kim]

Yes, but Mudah has more experience with Dissidia than you do, and he has much more experience with the genre than you do. When he has a concern like this, it is safe to say it is because he has seen how other games handle similar mechanics, and how Dissidia has generally handled its mechanics. Your earlier argument about the controls was yet another example of you talking about something you didn't have personal experience with. Mudah has played the game. When he says he'd prefer it with more buttons, it is based in his experience with the game, and that he feels more buttons would fix issues he had with the controls, however slight. You have not played the game.

You cannot speak personally for how well the controls work, and arguing that the game wouldn't benefit from more buttons smacks of you going out of your way to defend the game just for the sake of doing so. If you had played the game, and were able to argue from that personal experience, it would be a different story, but you haven't played the game. You're going out of your way to be contrary, with little basis to back it up other than "Well, you don't know that," which is far from being a strong argument. I understand that you have experience with programming, yet I feel you exaggerate the perspective it gives you, and shortsell the experiences of actual game players. This can be frustrating, both from a spectators point of view, and especially when someone is arguing something with you. Your reasons are generally fairly thought out to a degree, but are missing that important element of personal experience to back them up.

[bluestarultor]

Originally Posted by NonCon

Yes, but Mudah has more experience with Dissidia than you do, and he has much more experience with the genre than you do. When he has a concern like this, it is safe to say it is because he has seen how other games handle similar mechanics, and how Dissidia has generally handled its mechanics. Your earlier argument about the controls was yet another example of you talking about something you didn't have personal experience with. Mudah has played the game. When he says he'd prefer it with more buttons, it is based in his experience with the game, and that he feels more buttons would fix issues he had with the controls, however slight. You have not played the game.

This I will concede.

You cannot speak personally for how well the controls work, and arguing that the game wouldn't benefit from more buttons smacks of you going out of your way to defend the game just for the sake of doing so. If you had played the game, and were able to argue from that personal experience, it would be a different story, but you haven't played the game. You're going out of your way to be contrary, with little basis to back it up other than "Well, you don't know that," which is far from being a strong argument. I understand that you have experience with programming, yet I feel you exaggerate the perspective it gives you, and shortsell the experiences of actual game players. This can be frustrating, both from a spectators point of view, and especially when someone is arguing something with you. Your reasons are generally fairly thought out to a degree, but are missing that important element of personal experience to back them up.

Let me introduce you to second-hand experience. My brother has played the game plenty and I've asked him about these things. In his personal experience, the controls were fine, for one. He actually told me he felt there was plenty of room for more when I asked him specifically when this thread started into that subject. Even though I'm in Green Bay, seriously, one cell phone call away, a nice conversation, and I come out with an actual player's opinion.

I'm not going out of my way to be contrary. I'm offering a different perspective. It's not like I haven't played any games, ever, here, or even never played any fighting games, ever. I just haven't personally ever gotten my hands on Dissidia. I admitted it. It's not like I tried to pretend otherwise.

See, this entire "your opinion is invalid for XYZ reason" stuff? I really take umbrage with that. Your opinion may be different from mine, but there's no need to work so hard to run mine into the ground. I'm providing an opinion with the knowledge I have, which is just weighted in different areas. I'm more on the technical thought process. In this last example, the difference between a good system and a bad system is numbers. There are only so many ways to fill a bar and any one of them could work depending on the numbers used.



I'm going to go cool off now. I can understand disagreeing with my opinion, but I really do prefer if people at least respect it.

[Nikose Tyris]

[Note: sat on this post before throwing it for an hour. Queried internet, Blues said to go ahead, and since this post is 90% against him, I figured I may as well post it.]

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

Let me introduce you to second-hand experience. My brother has played the game plenty and I've asked him about these things. In his personal experience, the controls were fine, for one. He actually told me he felt there was plenty of room for more when I asked him specifically when this thread started into that subject. Even though I'm in Green Bay, seriously, one cell phone call away, a nice conversation, and I come out with an actual player's opinion.

This entire thing here would imply that Mudah and everyone else who disagrees with your opinion [which is based on whatever your brother tells you] is not an actual player. I would have to say that actual player's opinion first hand trumps your secondhand everything, Blues.

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

I'm not going out of my way to be contrary. I'm offering a different perspective. It's not like I haven't played any games, ever, here, or even never played any fighting games, ever. I just haven't personally ever gotten my hands on Dissidia. I admitted it. It's not like I tried to pretend otherwise.

You don't have an opinion. Your brother has an opinion.

Related: I tested on Super Street Fighter II: Turbo HD Remix, so I'm clearly totally qualified to give my opinion on why cornerwhoring in these games is wrong, and why dissidia suffers from it horribly. The thing I hate most about it is when I get locked into a corner and I get stunlocked for hours. I'm glad I have such a big health bar that I can be juggled and still, if I'm lucky, get out of it!

I haven't actually played THIS game, but I've played other fighting games and my roommate Shane has a copy of this game and I just asked him if he dislikes cornerwhoring while he was playing it, and he agreed with me.

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

See, this entire "your opinion is invalid for XYZ reason" stuff? I really take umbrage with that. Your opinion may be different from mine, but there's no need to work so hard to run mine into the ground. I'm providing an opinion with the knowledge I have, which is just weighted in different areas. I'm more on the technical thought process. In this last example, the difference between a good system and a bad system is numbers. There are only so many ways to fill a bar and any one of them could work depending on the numbers used.

This is the reason people rip you apart. You claim knowledge in fields where, regardless of how much 'actual real experience programming and making games omg you guys and junk' you have, it doesn't apply. I didn't walk in and correct Smarty and NonCon by saying that anybody can stop Blanka's roundhouse using a hitbox exploit by getting your frames so that a tiny portion of the foot of your attacker dips into the lightning aura to damage and knock Blanka back when you use crouch+low kick.

Every time you walk in with "I have more experience because X", regardless of if it is valid or not, you end up looking very arrogant, and yeah, people are going to step up and knock you for it.

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

I'm going to go cool off now. I can understand disagreeing with my opinion, but I really do prefer if people at least respect it.

When you develop your own opinion on the situation from hands on experience, and don't dismiss actual player's valid opinions in favor of your second-hand opinions, people will respect them more.




IN RELATION TO THIS GAME:

This may be game #2 I pick up for my PSP. :/ I really need to get more for it.

[bluestarultor]

That's fair enough. I can respect that reasoning.

I'll be honest and say it'll be a cold day in Hell when I get my brain to stop thinking in design mode. Designing stuff takes up most of my time, up and down both.

On the other hand, now that I've had time to chill, looking at my posts, I see I've been arguing against opinions too hard instead of considering and integrating them, which is wrong of me, especially from a design standpoint. I realize I do that more with online feedback than meatspace feedback on my own work and I guess the same applies here.

So, apologies. Especially to Mudah. It's really not fair that I treated your opinion as less valuable than my brother's just because you're online, especially given your experience with the genre as a whole. Yours should actually be more valuable, or at least worth much better consideration than I gave it, regardless of it being online.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by NonCon

Because it's breaking a combo, something that you need to be at least somewhat skilled to pull off

Haha no. Choose two:

• Dissidia
• Combos
• Skill

The only exception is Jecht, but otherwise the characters with combos just require you to mash circle until you get to the part where you have a BP-to-HP link and then you hit square at the end.

There's some amount of taking advantage of some lazy coding in regard to stagger time vs. dodge time during melee combos where you can dodge cancel in the middle of one and, with no resistance whatsoever, engage another combo and THEN link to an HP move, but all that means is that you're inserting R+X in the middle of your circle-mashing, and apparently it's something they largely fixed in the Universal Tuning version (which is the balancing they'll be running on with Duodecim) so you're pretty much back to circle mashing with a square finale for most characters.