Dissidia Duodecim Final Fantasy continues Squeenix's tradition of stupid titles

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Locke cole

Oh for the love of-

World destroyers don't get to be on Team Cosmos.

Re-crippling your own brother certainly doesn't get you on Team Cosmos.

Re-killing your friend's mom doesn't help, either.

[Locke cole]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

World destroyers don't get to be on Team Cosmos.

Re-crippling your own brother certainly doesn't get you on Team Cosmos.

Re-killing your friend's mom doesn't help, either.

Banishing an illusion spell that's taken hold over your town, and quite possibly your whole world, and has tried to ensnare the kid who unknowningly unleashed it, probably earns some brownie points.

I mean, that "mom" was quite literally a book. A book feeding off of Mewt's insecurities to keep him wrapped up in her little world. A book who manifested his anger as a psychopath trying to kill his friends.

And that world wasn't sunshine and rainbows for everyone. Remember those bullies from the snowfight, who teased Mewt? Remember the zombies with their names? Yeah...

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Locke cole

Banishing an illusion spell that's taken hold over your town, and quite possibly your whole world, and has tried to ensnare the kid who unknowningly unleashed it, probably earns some brownie points.

Considering that, as far as anyone in the cast had seen before Marche went off on his little quest to destroy everything, it was a better world for everyone, I wouldn't be handing out brownie points just yet. Ritz was in a world where she felt like she didn't have to hide herself out of shame. Mewt was a prince whose mother wasn't dead and his father wasn't a failure. Marche was a celebrated hero and leader and Doned was healthy and happy.

And then, as it turned out, it wasn't an illusion. The world remained afterward, to the point where two more games were made in the same world (one of which in the main series, in fact). It was real. He tried to destroy a real world because he thought it was an illusion.

I mean, that "mom" was quite literally a book. A book feeding off of Mewt's insecurities to keep him wrapped up in her little world. A book who manifested his anger as a psychopath trying to kill his friends.

The friends that were seeking to unravel the very existence of that reality. I mean, sure, staying meant not facing the harsh reality of their world where their lives sucked and their families were dead and dying, and creating Llednar to combat the problem was on the extreme side, but bear in mind that the person he was created to kill was crossing the countryside, wreaking untold havoc and mowing down his own friends who stood in his way just because he was unconvinced that the world they were in was real.

And that world wasn't sunshine and rainbows for everyone. Remember those bullies from the snowfight, who teased Mewt? Remember the zombies with their names? Yeah...

You mean the snowfight where they threw rocks at him?

And considering that the "real" world turned out to exist outside the "fantasy" world the book had supposedly constructed all along, and that mission took place after the realization of this, it would seem those kids were probably fine anyway.

[Locke cole]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Considering that, as far as anyone in the cast had seen before Marche went off on his little quest to destroy everything, it was a better world for everyone, I wouldn't be handing out brownie points just yet. Ritz was in a world where she felt like she didn't have to hide herself out of shame. Mewt was a prince whose mother wasn't dead and his father wasn't a failure. Marche was a celebrated hero and leader and Doned was healthy and happy.

I'll give you that. Note, though, that the first crystal was destroyed by accident: Marche stumbled into Famfrit's domain. Not entirely sure why he went after the crystals after that, but I think he believed that "another world will appear" meant that, I dunno, a portal to his normal world would show up.

After the second crystal's destruction, he realized that the whole world was just an illusion crafted by Mewt, which, I believe, was before he got into conflict with his other friends.

And then, as it turned out, it wasn't an illusion. The world remained afterward, to the point where two more games were made in the same world (one of which in the main series, in fact). It was real. He tried to destroy a real world because he thought it was an illusion.

Not quite. There is a very real difference between the Ivalice that Vaan is from, and the "Ivalice" that Mewt and co. found themselves in.

See, the book that they had was not the Grimore Of The Rift, which tore open a portal in spacetime and flung Luso into Ivalice. It was Gran Grimore, which holds the power to warp the world around you. It twisted their world into an "Ivalice" built according to Mewt's desires (and the other three).

Hell, the Li-Grim says that her "Ivalice" was truly not anything at all.

The friends that were seeking to unravel the very existence of that reality. I mean, sure, staying meant not facing the harsh reality of their world where their lives sucked and their families were dead and dying, and creating Llednar to combat the problem was on the extreme side, but bear in mind that the person he was created to kill was crossing the countryside, wreaking untold havoc and mowing down his own friends who stood in his way just because he was unconvinced that the world they were in was real.

And he was right. It was, as he learned after the Ultima fight, "[Mewt's] world"

You mean the snowfight where they threw rocks at him?

That's proportionate retribution.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Locke cole

Not quite. There is a very real difference between the Ivalice that Vaan is from, and the "Ivalice" that Mewt and co. found themselves in.

See, the book that they had was not the Grimore Of The Rift, which tore open a portal in spacetime and flung Luso into Ivalice. It was Gran Grimore, which holds the power to warp the world around you. It twisted their world into an "Ivalice" built according to Mewt's desires (and the other three).

Hell, the Li-Grim says that her "Ivalice" was truly not anything at all.

I'm willing to buy that, though I still can't agree with Marche's course of action or motivation even after the realization, because there was no evidence to suggest that the world they had created was in any way evil. In fact, evil only began to come from it to defend against what Marche was trying to do.

That's proportionate retribution.

It's irrelevant anyway because, as I noted, that mission took place after Marche and co. were able to return home, meaning those weren't the bullies. More likely they were representative constructs created from Mewt's memories.

So in neither way were they innocent nor victims.

[Locke cole]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

I'm willing to buy that, though I still can't agree with Marche's course of action or motivation even after the realization, because there was no evidence to suggest that the world they had created was in any way evil. In fact, evil only began to come from it to defend against what Marche was trying to do.

And I'll meet you in the middle there and agree. Marche was perhaps too zealous in wanting them to go back to reality, and the darker elements of the world's origins didn't make themselves known until he had gone much further.

Marche's problem wasn't that he's some insane evil dude, more that he just didn't stop to think about what he was doing beyond "putting things back to normal", and that he was pretty damn stubborn in keeping to his course.

It's irrelevant anyway because, as I noted, that mission took place after Marche and co. were able to return home, meaning those weren't the bullies. More likely they were representative constructs created from Mewt's memories.

So in neither way were they innocent nor victims.

Actually, there's two such missions. That postgame one, where they're vampires, and one earlier on, before the endgame, where zombies with their names show up.

But this is kind of a random tangent.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Locke cole

And I'll meet you in the middle there and agree. Marche was perhaps too zealous in wanting them to go back to reality, and the darker elements of the world's origins didn't make themselves known until he had gone much further.

Marche's problem wasn't that he's some insane evil dude, more that he just didn't stop to think about what he was doing beyond "putting things back to normal", and that he was pretty damn stubborn in keeping to his course.

This is true, but--considering that in Duodecim you have Tidus, Cloud, and Terra as soldiers of Chaos--I believe that regardless of his intentions, his course of action puts him as a more likely candidate of Chaos.

At least he's more qualified for the position than Tidus of all people.

[Locke cole]

I'm still boggling about Cloud, of all people being on the Chaos side.

He's not even brainwashed. Why is he there?

I wonder what Marche would even do as a soldier of Chaos. Would he just fight whoever, or defect and go after the gods directly to try and get everyone home, or what?

Either way, he'd be more interesting than Luso, I think we can all agree about that.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Locke cole

defect and go after the gods directly to try and get everyone home

This would actually be pretty cool. I mean, this way they could basically retread the premise of FFTA without the inherent moral dilemma, because in this case the world that's been created for the way is essentially malevolent in its basic nature, an endless cycle of war perpetrated by a entity of pure destruction and a construct of Cid of the Lufaine's dead wife set up to oppose him.

Regardless of which side he was brought in on, I really don't see him responding to the situation in any other way than looking to tear it all down and get he and his friends back to their respective realities. It would add a fantastic new element to the story dynamic.

[Kerensky287]

I'm just going to state for the record that I had nothing to do with the conversation turning in this direction, despite the fact that I have been suggesting this to Ryong for several days and he's been saying "no" and getting hilariously pissed off about it.

I feel that there are too many Chaos soldiers who found the power of magical friendship and turned to Cosmos. Why is it that the only character who does it the other way around has to be brainwashed for it to happen? I mean, throw Marche in there, he starts off as a Cosmos warrior, then discovers the repeating cycle and switches to the more powerful team in an attempt to destroy one of the gods that's perpetuating it. Simple, in-character, morally ambiguous and still arguably a sensible move.