Boycott Atlus

[Bells]

So you give me a wall of opinions, ask me to take them as facts and i'm being impervious?

Also @Satan's Onion>

As far as Atlus stating that it takes Sexuality (mostly in the Persona series) as a serious issue in their games, i'm not saying that THIS is opinion, i never saw that but i have no reason to not believe either, but again, you guys seem to take it as malice or ill intent, why can't it be a different culture at play or just a opinion you don't agree with? Because it sells? Because it has marketing behind it?

Mind you, i never played the persona games... i played a bit of the PSX ones, but just one of them was in English and i never really got past the first hours, i played a bit of 2 and 3 on the PSP but i have yet to dwelve much farther into it... the only thing i know of Naoto is what wikipedia tells me and THERE i so no evil. Also from what i understand, Catherine had no problem with it's Transgender character, so this seems totally focused on persona.

Japan has a certain view on the subjects of Sexuality the places of men and women in society and many other things that more often than not they translate into their Media, be it anime, movies, manga or games... not everything is stuff i agree with, but i don't take it as some sort of malignant force that must be stopped.

There is a difference between calling for a Boycott and simply not supporting a brand, and i do try to do some reading up on the subject here as not to be completely blind in the crossfire... which led me to this

http://www.atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10193

[[ EDIT: Forgot this link also
http://www.reddit.com/r/transgender/...needs_to_stop/ ]]


And from what i understand, the problem is just a badly done portrait of Transgender people on games... at least to my mind, instead of making a pointless shit storm with Boycotts and spin and buzzwords extravaganza, why not take a positive approach to the subject? Instead of trying to invoke some sort of virtual Lynch mob to hurt the bottom line of the company (which still for me comes with some really poorly aimed rage) why not open the discussion and promote a positive feedback and awareness of how LGBT characters can properly be portrait in the media? As far as i'm aware, not only you have local tendencies and customs going into the making of the game, but sometimes you also have people with little to no awareness of a subject, trying to handle it into a story... Video games can be good at broad strokes of a story, but they don't always read in the best terms when they are going into any specifics... And again, ATLUS USA only handled Localization of the title...

If you try to target every company where these problems are prevalent, then you spread yourself too thin and risk getting nothing accomplished.

Then focus on the theme not on the company. Focusing on the theme makes sense, focusing on the company is less effective and arguably makes less sense.


EDIT EDIT 2:

Y'know i would probably delete my whole post if i didn't thought it would be rude, as i'm sure some of you might have already seen it, so i'll just let it here... point being that while looking around to try to at least understand your points a bit better i came across this... and THIS is what i'm talking about, a proper way to present a view that has enlightened me a bit about the issue. And if you haven't seen it, i suggest the read

http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=6088

i still think the Boycott idea is Ragecentric and misguided, but now at least i have a better grasp of what you guys are talking about.... i still say that is better and more logical to battle the issue than the company, and it can be done in a positive manner instead of a destructive one.

[Terex4]

And from what i understand, the problem is just a badly done portrait of Transgender people on games... at least to my mind, instead of making a pointless shit storm with Boycotts and spin and buzzwords extravaganza, why not take a positive approach to the subject?

With regards to the trans character mentioned, that is not "just a badly done portrait". A badly done portrait would be a focus on misguided concepts like the idea that being transsexual is a choice. This is a play on grotesquely flawed stereotypes that portray transgender people as predators and perverts as well as reinforcing that anyone we do hit on should reel away in disgust. That's not simple ignorance based on too little research, its reinforcing the idea that we're so perverse that we mutilate our own bodies in order to trick men into having sex with us.

I cannot stress enough how this is not just the opinion of someone who is affected by this issue directly, but how the media has gone to great lengths to make us seem to be.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Bells

So you give me a wall of opinions, ask me to take them as facts and i'm being impervious?

A: Many things cited were easily verifiable facts, not opinions.

B: Yes. You are being completely ridiculous at this point.

you guys seem to take it as malice or ill intent, why can't it be a different culture at play or just a opinion you don't agree with?

Man why can't you guys just be okay with slavery/ritual murder/women being executed at trial after being raped? It's just a different culture at play!

It doesn't matter if it's a different culture if it's harmful to people. It still needs to change. Saying 'it's just their cuuuuuultuuuuure' doesn't make it okay.

Also from what i understand, Catherine had no problem with it's Transgender character

Catherine's transgendered woman was named Erica. In the instruction manual she is listed as Eric, her name from before her gender reassignment. In the game there are comments made about her being less a woman than a 'natural' woman. And in the game she's the only female character to have the dreams.

All this heavily implies that she's not a 'real' woman through gameplay and publication.

How this is 'no problem' is beyond me. Also, this is more of the easily verifiable fact, from when Liz compared Capcom's handling of Poison to Atlus's handling of Erica, pointing out that Capcom, which never even tried to handle such issues maturely and responsibly, still manages to do less damage than Atlus.

Japan has a certain view on the subjects of Sexuality the places of men and women in society and many other things that more often than not they translate into their Media, be it anime, movies, manga or games... not everything is stuff i agree with, but i don't take it as some sort of malignant force that must be stopped.

Why isn't a malignant force? How much damage does a sexist/transphobic culture have to do to the people living in it and even the people living in other cultures through exposure to its media BEFORE it's a malignant force?

i do try to do some reading up on the subject here

Try harder.

And from what i understand, the problem is just a badly done portrait of Transgender people on games...

"I admit that they've done very poorly with their portrait of transgendered people while claiming to be doing well with their inclusion of transgenderism in their games, yet I see no reason that they should be reprimanded for this"

Bells, ladies and gentlemen.

at least to my mind, instead of making a pointless shit storm with Boycotts and spin and buzzwords extravaganza why not take a positive approach to the subject? Instead of trying to invoke some sort of virtual Lynch mob to hurt the bottom line of the company (which still for me comes with some really poorly aimed rage) why not open the discussion and promote a positive feedback and awareness of how LGBT characters can properly be portrait in the media? As far as i'm aware, not only you have local tendencies and customs going into the making of the game, but sometimes you also have people with little to no awareness of a subject, trying to handle it into a story... Video games can be good at broad strokes of a story, but they don't always read in the best terms when they are going into any specifics... And again, ATLUS USA only handled Localization of the title...

You mean like the multiple threads on the official Atlus forums and multiple PMs to the staff of those forums who are also the staff of Atlus US, the closest Liz can get to the actual developers without learning a new language, that she's already attempted?

Like those?

Which were shot down repeatedly, closed, and ended with the staff admitting there are problems but also refusing to do anything about them?

[Terex4]

There is a difference between calling for a Boycott and simply not supporting a brand, and i do try to do some reading up on the subject here as not to be completely blind in the crossfire... which led me to this

http://www.atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10193

I get the feeling that you didn't notice the name of the original poster in that particular thread...

http://www.reddit.com/r/transgender/...needs_to_stop/

Or the name of the author of the article of which that post is discussing.


Liz wrote them both...

[Bells]

Originally Posted by Krylo

"I admit that they've done very poorly with their portrait of transgendered people while claiming to be doing well with their inclusion of transgenderism in their games, yet I see no reason that they should be reprimanded for this"

Bells, ladies and gentlemen.

That's not only not what i said but actually unnecessarily ignorant of you to put it that way... really, uncalled for would be putting it lightly.

Intent matters. Ignorant people, misguided attempts, closed minded cultures... all of those can be fixed. They can be educated... their views can be expanded. Discussion on this topic is fairly new on broader terms and Japan is hardly the most open minded of countries about it.

Still, focusing on "Reprimand" ATLUS USA for it is simply stupid. They can be called on it, they can the subject to judgment and discussion for it... they can be used as an example inside a better, more inviting conversation on the topic that actually tries to take things forward in a better way, instead of this bash crap that not only doesn't go anywhere but doesn't help the cause it's trying to discuss in the first place.

Originally Posted by Terex4

I get the feeling that you didn't notice the name of the original poster in that particular thread...


Or the name of the author of the article of which that post is discussing.


Liz wrote them both...

YES, I DID. And the raction on both places were bad and led to nowhere because it was confrontational bullshit and more Inflamatory Rage machine instead of an actual conversation with any goals of improving on the subject discussed (like in the THIRD link i posted).

[CABAL49]

Granted there is a lot of Japanese media that does not portray LBGT, women or black people in a positive light, it would be a mistake to think that it portrays how all Japanese people feel. For that there is also Japanese media that does portray LBGT, women and black people in a positive light. It is a serious error in judgement to assume that because Atlus is transphobic that all Japanese are. Think of how many much media in the States is trans and homophobic. LBGT rights not only gaining traction in Japan, they actually do have legal protection, unlike in the States. Saying Japan is just being Japan is not only wrong, it is also a little racist.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Bells

YES, I DID. And the raction on both places were bad and led to nowhere because it was confrontational bullshit and more Inflamatory Rage machine instead of an actual conversation with any goals of improving on the subject discussed (like in the THIRD link i posted).

Just completely done taking you seriously, now.

[Bells]

Originally Posted by Krylo

Just completely done taking you seriously, now.

fan-fucking-tastic, imagine how much i can accomplish now that you're done dissecting everything i say and bending them out of shape just cause you don't agree with me, i can also link to a bunch of definitions that may or may not apply to whatever i want too, hell i can do it twice in the same sentence.

Are we done now? Anything else you wanna get out of your system or can i express a different opinion, and maybe even expand and change my own, instead of having to "shut up or accept"?

[Terex4]

Canadian police routinely search transwomen because they might be sex workers
African American transwoman arrested and forced into a false confession for defending herself
A transman's plea for help
This isn't ancient history. At what point is anger justified? Without having been in any of these sorts of extreme situations, I can tell you that there is a lot of anger just from being the people that we are. Transition is a painful and expensive process without the lack of rights and social stigma. Throw those in and you wind up with plenty of fear in the mix.

This was going to be longer but I'm out of steam...

[Bells]

rage and fear are justified in human nature specially when a person is being attacked for simply being, But on that same note i would say that THAT which you just posted, while valid in it's own accord, is not really what was being talked so far, it's almost ( ->almost<- ) another discussion.

What i posted at first was mostly focused on the OTHER game Liz pointed out, first cause The Op of this thread had a focus on it, and secondly cause like i said here, i don't know the persona games that well... as some ofe the people here showed a stronger opinion about that, since i wasn't been able to connect with your logic, i tried to look elsewhere to see if there was anything else... and there was. Again, as i said here.

Again, intent matters, There is difference between Ignorance and Malice, i see the point being made, but i also see it being made poorly and i shared two other instances were the same point was made by the same person the same way (The Atlus one has some good reading but thanks to a completely different person on the last 2 pages) and it turned out with nothing good for it, then i shared another link where another person did the same argument in a much better way that is informative, enlightening, insightful, personal and actually adds something to the discussion, it aims at something beyond simply destructive rage spurting.

I'm not saying there isn't a point to be made here, hell i'm not even saying you guys are wrong at calling Atlus out on it... but this Thread was made on the subject of a Boycott, which i thought was a stupid idea that adds nothing and tries to improve nothing about the actual problem...