Boycott Atlus

[pochercoaster]

Originally Posted by Azisien

It is unwise to trust the ignorant to educate themselves, by themselves. The burden is on the activist I'm afraid.

In a more general sense of argumentation, the burden of proof IS on Liz, though I think the arguments have been presented in a sufficiently detailed manner at this point.

Nitpicking, but this isn't logically consistent. The ignorant are unaware and therefore do not ask to be educated. If one claims ignorance and then asks to have the issue explained one has admitted that one is aware that there is an issue, therefore one has admitted that one is not ignorant. One may be ignorant of minor particularities* and certainly one may be forever ignorant of what it's like to live as a minority, but one is not so ignorant they are unable to educate themselves about transphobia in general (or any other social issue). Claiming the burden of proof is on someone else is a cop out.

You can't be ignorant and simultaneously claim you're ignorant.

*Which Liz detailed in literally her very first post

[Osterbaum]

Part of educating yourself can be about asking others though. I must also say that I do not like your example that everyone has access to google. Everyone does in fact not have access to google, especially if we consider the entire world. I realize you're just using google as the easy example that applies to all of our situations, but the internet isn't available to everyone and some people might not have the knowledge required to search for reliable information on a given topic.

The burden does not fall on the activist, but it certainly helps if the activist takes it upon themselves to explain their position.

I'm just talking generalities here, and not about this specific thread or any of our situations really. Obviously all of us have the ability to use google and I'd say the knowledge required to find trustworthy sources as well, so it's not an excuse for anyone in this thread.

[Jagos]

Originally Posted by pocheros

No, it's NOT their responsibility. Saying that others are responsible for your education on the matter is just another way of victim blaming and a very insidious one at that. It is not the job of the oppressed to inform the oppressors; why do the actions of transphobes fall on the hands of transgendered people? Because one can't educate themselves? That's bunk- you have google.

If I'm advocating for a change, why shouldn't I take the time to get my own ducks lined up in a row and to show why something needs to be changed?

Furthermore, when less privileged folk DO try to educate others, they are often shouted down, ignored, or have their experiences trivalized. That's because often folk who say they need to be educated by transgendered people/people of colour/the LGBTQ community/etc., they're not sincerely interested in being educated- even if they think they are. They just want to feel comfortable with themselves and dispel any worries that they are part of a society that doesn't care about minorities.

... I'm hearing a lot of anger here...

I'm sure privileged folk don't think of themselves as oppressors; certainly I doubt anyone here is going out and beating up other people for their race/sexuality/gender identity/etc. However I believe everyone carries some amount of social responsibility. See, it's rarely anyone individual's FAULT, but it is our RESPONSIBILITY, so long as we continue to inherit our culture and society from our parents and our parent's parents. The last slave owner in the USA died off a long time ago but that doesn't mean we don't have to work against racism.

I'll use this as an example:

I want to eliminate prisons who disparage against minorities and I want to have people understand what is going on with our prison system. While I can't have people reading books, I do have a number of statistics and number of articles talking about how felony is the new n-word, how Louisiana is the new plantation state and how the drug war has failed.

The reason I would point people to the numbers is to show how African Americans are targeted for the drug war, how they are counted and transferred to different states as a poll tax, and how the drug war is used to suppress minority votes in the mostly political campaign.

So I would argue that slave owners haven't died off. They've become the prison/plantation owners where people like Joe Arpaio have become horrific in how they ignore the law in order to discriminate.

And after I make that argument, I would try to find a plan to ensure that there are laws in place to fight for at the very least basic human rights in place in prisons. I might even look at the ACLU and other prominent places for civil rights to find ways to take action. Whether that's through Twitter, Facebook, or by having a petition for people to voice their anger, I would be showing people through each step exactly what they might do to get more information, connect with me for more dialogue and keep informed about the issue. This is just one example, but it's just one way to show how the responsibility is actually with the activist, not the person seeking information.

That responsibility, sadly, often gets shouldered by less privileged folk because they have to deal with it every day. But it's all too easy for everyone else to cover their eyes and plug their ears.

I dunno... I hear a lot about LGBT issues from the Anita who does a good job of showing why women in gaming is pretty stereotypical. I don't think she's any "less privileged" in pursuing similar issues to Liz and no one's covering eyes or ears to what she has to say.

It is easy for someone with privilege to log on to a forum and write some things and log off and forget about it. Society does not require people to be sensitive to transgendered people. However a transgendered person cannot escape that. They wake up every day in a society that doesn't care about them and portrays them terribly such as in Atlus games and at its worst is violent towards them. They have no choice, they can't log off the net and forget about it.

... I'm kind of at a loss here because a similar argument is racism in games or how women are treated in games but this seems to project onto people more than I believe is necessary in the argument.

This doesn't mean you HAVE to go out with some picket signs anywhere. But IMO the bare minimum of responsibility requires one to educate themselves about these issues and listen to others sensitively.

I really have a hard time saying that responsibility is to be thrust upon the viewer when they may not know exactly how they feel on a subject and don't have enough context. Where is it that everyone will look up all information placed upon them to follow a protest from beginning to end? Hell, you have people that still don't follow the Occupy movement even now. I feel that usually those that have a part in trying to "wake up the sheeple" have to be able to tell why their cause matters to others with at the very least a narrative most can follow. If not, there's going to be confusion and people needing to understand how to get involved.

I explained this shit like three goddamn times. Just because you, for some unfathomable reason, mistook trans to mean intersex doesn't change that.

His example had more information. You tend to stop at "transphobia sucks because society sucks" without a strong explanation in that regard. I saw SS' Naoto Youtube and couldn't figure out the rest which is where PCD came in.

[Nique]

Are requests for more proof or support when ample prof has already been given just derailing nonsense?

EDIT: This was meant in reply to Oster, not Jagos.

[Marc v4.0]

I know it has been said, but having to repeat yourself several times before the post actually gets read seems to be the name of the game, but Liz had lots of Nice Ducks all rowed the fuck up and gave multiple examples many many times and still got hand-waved off.

Echoing Nique, how much reasoning and proof must be posted before the constant demand for more ceases being sincere inquiry and moves into derailing and deflection territory?

[Osterbaum]

Are requests for more proof or support when ample prof has already been given just derailing nonsense?

Obviously if you ignore the explanations and proof others give you, especially if you asked it of them, is just plain ignorance and deserves no further recognition whatsoever on part of the activist.

[Kim]

You tend to stop at "transphobia sucks because society sucks" without a strong explanation in that regard.

Stop fucking lying.

[pochercoaster]

Originally Posted by Osterbaum

Part of educating yourself can be about asking others though. I must also say that I do not like your example that everyone has access to google. Everyone does in fact not have access to google, especially if we consider the entire world. I realize you're just using google as the easy example that applies to all of our situations, but the internet isn't available to everyone and some people might not have the knowledge required to search for reliable information on a given topic.

The burden does not fall on the activist, but it certainly helps if the activist takes it upon themselves to explain their position.

I'm just talking generalities here, and not about this specific thread or any of our situations really. Obviously all of us have the ability to use google and I'd say the knowledge required to find trustworthy sources as well, so it's not an excuse for anyone in this thread.

Yeah, I agree with this too, though not in the context of this thread. Intent matters- certainly, people might ask others about their experiences with a sincere interest in educating themselves, and if those who they ask want to share that's a positive step.

In the context of the rest of the world it's a whole other game with politics and imperialism etc. involved. It's just that ignorance is not a good excuse for anyone in this thread. I also didn't say everyone has access to google. Just that those who posted in this thread do, which is a safe assumption.

[Marelo]

The response to "Why aren't you giving us more proof" boils down to "I already did; it is not my fault you are ignoring it."

Like, it strikes me as pretty ridiculous that on page 29 there are still people arguing that Liz and others have not provided enough evidence. People are still asking questions which were answered many times over previously in the thread.

At this point, it's seriously hard to believe that any requests for evidence or discourse are more than, at best, laziness, and at worst, deflecting and denial to avoid discomfort. That's why people are responding to such requests with exasperation! They've already done that, which makes a dismissal of the activism or criticism of their methods especially shitty.

[Kim]

Whee more proof that Atlus is a transphobic as fuck company