A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Overcast

I've always believed a genuinely humorous joke at the expense of any group helps deflate bigotry by reducing the serious nature of the topic thus weakening both those who genuinely believe the joke's contents, and those unwilling to admit to allow themselves to be belittled in any way.

Nope.

Bigoted jokes contribute to bigotry because it creates an idea of what kind of bigotry is "okay". "Well, I can't say I hate asians, but I can say they're shitty drivers!" Meanwhile, these things promote stereotypes that affect how people behave in their day to day lives.

EDIT: Expanding on this, you are essentially creating safe speech for bigots, giving them behavior they can hide behind, and laughing along with them and telling them their bigotry is okay because hey you aren't ______ so it doesn't hurt you. And yes, there are members of oppressed groups who think such behavior is okay, but they tend to be the ones most disconnected from fighting for the rights of the groups they are a part of.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Liz

It's actually not!

The world isn't black and white. There exists a rather vast nebulous realm of whether or not something is actually bigoted. You do an excellent job of creating examples that are pretty clearly bigotted but in reality, statements mean different things to different people.

[Overcast]

Censorship gives these stereotypes power though. They actively enforce to the groups inside that if a joke is not allowed to be done about this it is a serious enough stereotype to avoid said action. A black man can;t order fried chicken, a gay man can't enjoy a dance club, ect. To disarm the sting of these stereotypes require that you allow them to be jokable.

The people who believe this are not averse to fighting for their rights but do not want to be treated like they are special. I am just another human being just like you and I don't need anyone to protect me from reality.

[shiney]

Yes you do! You'll be protected so hard that pretty soon everyone will be gone and the silence will mean you've won.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Fenris

There exists a rather vast nebulous realm of whether or not something is actually bigoted.

You have provided literally zero argument that this is the case other than your say-so.

Environment isn't just the people in a particular sphere. It's how they choose to act in that sphere and how that sphere influences them. I think everyone who has been a longtime member of NPF can attest to how the forum has influenced them over the years.

So, let's throw bigoted jokes into the mixture. You then have bigoted jokes influencing how people behave and think. What's more, because this is a big happy environment full of friends and all that sassy jazz, the environment more easily influences the people in it. Your friends influence you more than that fucker who lives down the street and backed into your car that one time.

You are saying, as a white, het, cis-man, that you are A-OK with bigoted jokes. Of course you are. They don't really ever apply to you. Even had I a handy bag of anti-het joke cards, they lack the same power because they aren't as spread throughout the culture. There aren't billions of jokes relying on ignorant stereotypes of hets. Why? Because hets have the power. Bigoted jokes are, typically, jokes at the expense of the underprivileged by those with privilege. Anything contrary to this is the exception. Not the rule.

So, let's add all this up real quick before I move on. You're defending jokes made from positions of privilege at the expense of the underprivileged, even though these jokes will without a doubt influence both the environment of the forum and the members.

Perhaps, though, you still think that's A-OK. As I mentioned above, they also give bigots behavior to hide behind. They have a set list of "okay" ways they can be bigoted. Not only will these ways of being bigoted not get them in trouble, but they will be embraced by privileged people who tell themselves that they aren't bigoted. People like yourself. When you allow, defend, and go along with bigoted jokes, you are both aiding bigots and making them feel that their bigotry is perfectly okay and acceptable so long as they don't cross an imaginary line that you've set. Your previous refusal to take serious claims of bigotry in media, for example, gives me the impression that this line is going to give the bigots a fuck of a lot of leeway.

These are some very good, very basic reasons for why bigoted jokes aren't okay and shouldn't be allowed. Unless you have an argument that isn't just Argument From Privilege as for why this gray area of yours still exists in this scenario, then you can't keep hiding behind it.

[Overcast]

shiny as much as I enjoy a clever quip I feel like it would be best if we approached this with as little snideness as possible. Tough as that may be. xB

[Kim]

Originally Posted by shiney

Yes you do! You'll be protected so hard that pretty soon everyone will be gone and the silence will mean you've won.

Hey, you're doing a shitty job at that "Not Be A Dick" thing you just told everyone to do.

Maybe you should try again and not be a dick.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Overcast

Censorship gives these stereotypes power though. They actively enforce to the groups inside that if a joke is not allowed to be done about this it is a serious enough stereotype to avoid said action. A black man can;t order fried chicken, a gay man can't enjoy a dance club, ect. To disarm the sting of these stereotypes require that you allow them to be jokable.

The people who believe this are not averse to fighting for their rights but do not want to be treated like they are special. I am just another human being just like you and I don't need anyone to protect me from reality.

Actually, the jokes help keep the stereotypes in public consciousness long after whatever inspired the stereotypes ceases to be relevant. If there weren't fried chicken jokes still being made, many fewer people would even know the stereotype exists. The fewer people are aware of a stereotype, the less power that stereotype has, because no one is promoting it. The less power and less prevalence a stereotype has, the easier it is to do these things without fear that you're "promoting the stereotype."

EDIT: Let me also just add the moment I hear people arguing that if they don't want those jokes being made they should stop promoting the stereotype those jokes are about is the moment your argument ceases to work Overcast. I've heard it a lot.

[Overcast]

I'll note I agree with fenris and I am:
Openly gay
Multiracial, many different minority groups.
A military member
Raised in a under $14k annual income household

Privilage was something I had very little of. In at least one instance you made hatful bigoted remarks on my lifestyle as a military member. Is that right to you?

[Osterbaum]

Originally Posted by Pip

See, where I come from, homosexuals aren't given dirty looks or voted against, they're beaten openly in something of a local sport referred to as "gaybashing". Any intelligent and moral person can identify this behavior as reprehensible, and so obviously I've no support for it at all, but when the narrative for hatred of the minority is so clearly set, the small offense of being slightly skeptical when asked to join a boycott is negligible. Silly even.

Look the thing is, that just because you've managed to be a lot less intolerant than your environment is (which is obviously a good thing), doesn't make any ignorant or offensive stuff you do say not be ignorant or offensive just because you're used to hearing worse. Now while I don't think anyone is under any obligation to act nicely towards anyone saying bigoted, privileged stuff I also don't think it's any kind of requirement to be an asshole towards them.

And look, your feelings getting hurt is a lot less of an issue that the kind of attitude that allows for the oppression of huge groups of people. Your feelings aren't insignificant, nor does anyone have any more right to outright call you names or anything, but they do have the right to call out what you post as bullshit. There is a difference between calling you an asshole and calling what you're saying bullshit. I'm not saying nobody, including Liz, has ever crossed this line, but let's just make the distinction clear.

Now it's a bit of a different branch of the main debate, but I'm just going to add that personally I don't think attacking others for their ignorance is the right way to go while I simultaneously don't think that anyone is required to tolerate bigotry in any of it's forms.

e:

Originally Posted by Overcast

In at least one instance you made hatful bigoted remarks on my lifestyle as a military member.

Being the member of or rather working for the military does not put you in a position of being constantly oppressed. Members of the military are not in a position in society where they constantly have to deal with oppression or anything like that. I'm just saying this is bad example.

e2: I'd like to quote someone else here:

Throwing Liz's history back in her face when she has openly regretted her temper at times is a shitty thing to do. Using that as a means to attack Liz, when Liz is usually right, also a shitty thing to do. I don't want to see, "Liz has a temper," becoming an excuse to ignore what Liz says. Liz has problems, I have problems, we all have problems.

I think this is relevant here as well.

Now I don't always like the way Liz handles arguments with people or telling people off for their opinions, but I read this thread and I remember all previous instances where Liz has told people off or where we've discussed Liz's behavior and the overall feeling I'm getting here that by the end of the day, Liz might some times be less than polite about the way she handles things, but I'm much more upset by bigotry than I am by someone insulting someone for their bigotry. And shit, Liz has in almost all occasions presented multiple arguments for why what someone is saying is bigoted and then explained those arguments further and most of the time the only response to this is basically along the lines of either just continuing to ignore all of it in favor of maintaining your precious world view wherein you're never bigoted even by accident or just dismissing it because insults!

Anyone arguing from a position of privilege and making bigoted comments (whether they realize they're being bigoted or not) getting insulted for their bigotry is suffering a lot less than anyone who is the (unintended) victim of said bigotry. Overall instead of concentrating on being all "huff-puff I do not deserve to be insulted" about it, it might be a good thing to just take a moment and wonder exactly what about what you said is getting other people so worked up.

e3: I'm sorry if this post is a bit of a mess of different arguments, but I'm pretty tired and I'm having trouble organizing all of it coherently since a lot more stuff just keeps popping in to my mind about all this while I write.